Methodist jury convicts lesbian minister

[davidinalameda]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/12/02/methodists.gays.ap/index.html

A jury made up of United Methodist Church clergy convicted a lesbian minister Thursday of violating church law by openly living with her partner in a committed relationship.

The Rev. Irene Elizabeth Stroud could be defrocked as a result of the ruling, which came on the second day of her church trial. The same 13-member jury was set to meet Thursday afternoon to decide her penalty.

Methodist law bars "self-avowed, practicing homosexuals" from ministry. Nine votes were necessary for a conviction and the jury voted 12-1 to find Stroud guilty.

[Bono71]

1. I think the Methodist church is pro-choice, but I could be wrong

[MemphisTiger]

7. United Methodist is pro-life

I think there is another Methodist denomination that may be more liberal

[Bono71]

10. I thought United Methodist was pro choice...but if you are

united methodist then I defer...if not...anyone know???

[MemphisTiger]

15. I am a United Methodist, they are pretty clear on that issue

but on the issue of homosexuality, it gets a little politically correct in the Book of Discipline. Here is what it says:

Equal Rights Regardless of Sexual Orientation

Certain basic human rights and civil liberties are due all persons. We are committed to supporting those rights and liberties for homosexual persons.

We see a clear issue of simple justice in protecting their rightful claims where they have shared material resources, pensions, guardian relationships, mutual powers of attorney, and other such lawful claims typically attendant to contractual relationships that involve shared contributions, responsibilities, and liabilities, and equal protection before the law.

Moreover, we support efforts to stop violence and other forms of coercion against gays and lesbians. We also commit ourselves to social witness against the coercion and marginalization of former homosexuals.

[yellowdogintexas]

37. basically the UMC position is this:WE JUST WON'T ORDAIN OR MARRY YOU

we won't deny you communion, we won't deny you membership, we will defend your civil rights and condemn persecution of you based on your sexual orientation. The minister in question lived in an openly gay relationship with a partner in the church provided manse, no doubt, a sure recipe for a church trial.

The church meets every 4 years in an international conference, and this issue is renewed every 4 years.

The UMC is representative of more than just USA ..and most of the protest against gay ordination and gay marriages within the UMC comes from the international bishops, especially the AFrican bishops, and they command a big % of the vote and this is the fastest growing segment of the UMC..AFRICA

One of the reasons the UCC can afford to be more openly liberal is the
manner in which ministers are appointed to congregations. In the UCC, the congregation chooses the minister. If it is a fit, then it is a fit and that minister may stay in one place for a long long time.

The UMC appoints its ministers to the various churches(by the bishop and committee within the local conference) and in most conferences, rotates them around fairly regularly. So you could have a gay minister with a partner in one church and that would be fine but never be able to move him/her except to another congregation that would be welcoming. Sad to say, not enough congregations would be welcoming enough to allow that to happen, and even if the congregation were OK with it, the town around the congregation would not be and that would be a real problem. (I can see the KKK storming the local UMC in my mind right now. Falwell, Robertson, oh the horror.......)

One of the strong tenets of Methodism is that the minister not become the central reason for a specific church's existence...you are there for your faith, not because joe jones is your pastor, hence the rotation. IT was something John Wesley strongly believed in, and it grew out of the early history in the colonies, with the circuit riders.

So no ordination of openly gay ministers at this point in time. We had a heavily closted gay minister on staff for years. No one knew it until he resigned! He had a wife and a daughter, and a gay lover.
He was of course much happier after he came out but he had to give up his ministry which he loved. It was very sad and most of the congregation really hated to see him go. He finally left because the Gen Conf in 1996 voted down the gay ordination proposal AGAIN and he was just exhausted with the effort, and wanted to be out.

Sadly, it is never as simple as those of us who want totally equal rights for all would have it to be. In a perfect world we would not have these questions and issues. If it were up to me...well, ordain anyone who seeks it...fine by me. But it ain't up to me.

[getting old in mke]

51. Rev Stroud, come home...

Our Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) congregation has a lesbian minister who was stripped of her credentials by the UMC a little over a decade ago. Our region, at least (Illinois/Wisconsin) had no problems credentialing her and here she is.

Then again, we also have the same advantage as the UCC in that congregations call their own pastors, and she was the perfect fit for us.

Of course, a previous pastor called us "her lovable band of heretics" so we're probably not in the center of Disciples polity...

[yellowdogintexas]

59. if I ever move to your area, I think I will join your congregation

[mzmolly]

14. They are pro-choice from what I can tell reading their position?

:shrug:

http://www.umc.org/interior.asp?mid=1732

Our belief in the sanctity of unborn human life makes us reluctant to approve abortion. But we are equally bound to respect the sacredness of the life and well-being of the mother, for whom devastating damage may result from an unacceptable pregnancy. In continuity with past Christian teaching, we recognize tragic conflicts of life with life that may justify abortion, and in such cases we support the legal option of abortion under proper medical procedures. We cannot affirm abortion as an acceptable means of birth control, and we unconditionally reject it as a means of gender selection.

[MemphisTiger]

21. They are pro-choice with restrictions

They are not pro-choice in the way most people think of pro-choice. Also, different congregations treat these guidelines a little different. Being in the south I see the more conservative side of the United Methodists, but we are allowed to disagree with our minister and with our congregation.

[yardwork]

42. Many Methodist churchesin the south and midwest are very conservative

There is a lot of range among Methodist churches. Some are extremely conservative - identical to conservative southern Baptists in their views. Others are very liberal. It's puzzling to me.

[joeybee12]

2. Phucking idiots...

...maybe it's because I'm gay, maybe it's because I was born in a liberal state in a liberal family, or maybe I'm just smarter than these fuckers who get all out of whack that someone is gay or lesbian, but I am appalled. Is sexual repression that much of a factor in ALL religions?

[texastoast]

4. Apparently not all

Have a look at the ad.

http://www.stillspeaking.com/default.htm

[RaRa]

72. Indeed

one of the pastors at my former UCC was married to his partner in our church. Pretty cool, I think.

[Bono71]

5. I don't agree with it either...but there are other churches she

can attend. It's not like Methodism is the only game in town.

[eleny]

8. The UCC might be getting many new members these days. n/t

[mzmolly]

16. I agree.

:hi:

[Lizzie Borden]

49. Well, they will be welcome.

[intheflow]

22. I attend a Methodist seminary with a large GBLTQ student body.

Believe me, the Methodists lose many good clergy to the UCC for exactly this reason.

[jamboi]

35. Looks that way.Looks like they're making a concerted effort to pick up

disaffected progressives. Makes sense. Good for them.

[rodeodance]

25. Methodists--like many Protestants faiths are losing their people

[sui generis]

6. absolutely, think about it

centralizing power around religion in primitive societies means that you control the growth of social power by making sure that your people can't marry outside the faith.

the second idea in that is that they must reproduce, and reproduce a lot.

SO, marrying outside the faith and fucking for fun is "immoral" and we've got these cheesy old religions and mindsets here in the 21st century trying to make us live like we're in the 3rd century.

[Pacifist Patriot]

19. Sorry, but that generalization doesn't work for "ALL" religions.

[sui generis]

26. it absolutely does

I don't mean to offend any "modern" variations, but without exception ever single "faith" that's more than 200 years old forbids marrying outside the faith.

So it's not a generalization, and please don't take it personally; it wasn't meant as an attack.

[Pacifist Patriot]

30. I'm curious why you drew the line in the sand at 200 years.

The OP's question seemed firmly rooted in the present. Aside from that, I'm unfamiliar with Buddhist teachings which prohibit extra-faith marriage. Likewise for Taoism. Religions are far too diverse and fractured in this day and age to make many generalizations about them. It seems moot to discuss what their teachings were 100s or 1000s of years ago when its the modern denominational rules affecting the faithful.

And no, you didn't offend me I just found your assertion flawed.

[bunkerbuster1]

31. Unitarians have been around for more than 200 years.

They certainly don't forbid anyone from marrying outside the faith.

So there's an exception right off the bat. I'm sure there are others.

[sui generis]

36. good freaking grief I'm not backing down!

the BIG MAINSTREAM religions are what we're talking about. Sorry about the 200 year line in the sand, and no I can't speak for every sect and variation of every religion.

Yes you're precious and special.

But the gist of what I was saying is that religion historically has been oppressive and exclusive, and there is an overwhelming body of evidence to that effect. I'm not arguing unitarianism. I'm arguing a line of socio-anthropological reasoning.

[bunkerbuster1]

38. you're DAMN RIGHT I'm precious and special

now APOLOGIZE! REPENT, SINNER! or be cast into the searing flames of HAYELLLL!

er, point taken.

[Pacifist Patriot]

18. Not Unitarian Universalism

Unitarian Universalism, A Religious Home for Bisexual, Gay, Lesbian, and Transgender People

http://www.uua.org/pamphlet/3065.html

[intheflow]

23. And it was UUs who pushed the MA gay marriage litigation.

God love 'em!

[LeftHander]

73. or Spirit of life and love....

for those who don't accept a "god"....

[420inTN]

24. Pretty much...

as far as the Big 3 (Judeo/Christian/Islam). I'm not sure about how much repression exists in the "pagan/heathen" religions.

[nosmokes]

3. never met the man personally, but i bet jesus is appalled

at what's done in his name.


on edit: hell, in this case, i bet maybe even john wesley is appalled, ya know? where's that old fashioned method of christian love and acceptance that they taught me in my conformation classes for UMC when i was 12yo? buncha raggedy ass snake egg sucking hypocritical asshat holier than thou self-righteous mofos can go right out and suck ann coulters dick.

[bushisanidiot]

33. Jesus never spoke against homosexuality in any way shape or form

the book of leviticus spoke of all sorts of abominations, many of which are practiced today without anyone getting all up in arms over it.. yet, the homophobic religious "right" pluck out homosexuality from all of leviticus' "abominations" as the only one that needs to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

[killbotfactory]

34. Paul hated gay people, too

Romans 1

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

[bushisanidiot]

39. The author who attributed this verse in Paul's name (Paul didn't

actually write all of the letters attributed to him) threw in one verse that may or may not be interpretted as anti-gay, HOWEVER there are anti-adultery verses all over the place in both the old and new testaments.. adultery was considered enough of a sin that Jesus spoke against it himself.. yet he said nothing against homosexuality.

So, I wonder.. why hasn't the religious right gone after adulterers with the same hatred and blood-lust that they've shown towards gays? adultery is clearly the greater sin according to Jesus, so shouldn't all adulterers be put to death first?

[killbotfactory]

43. Because the religious right is full of adulterers

Most of whom probably haven't even read the bible, although they will be first in line for the opportunity to cram what they think it says down your throat.

[brentspeak]

54. You're correct that some of the Pauline epistles

were probably not actually written by Paul in the first place. 'Romans', however, is known to be authentic. Was it redacted by someone at a later time? Possibly, but the chances are low; the unity of the letter when read in it's original Greek holds together pretty well.

(There's another passage in 1 Corinth 6 which condemns homosexuality, and yet another one in one of the Timothy letters. Opinion is split 50:50 on the authenticity of 1 Corinthians, but it's almost a certainty that the Timothy letters are inauthentic.)

[gaia_gardener]

56. I can't reconcile 1 Corinthians 13

with the rest of Paul's epistles. It's just too wondrous to have been written by the same person.

[brentspeak]

58. I see some relation to passages in Romans

like chapter 12 and chapter 13 verses 8-10. (Unfortunately, chapter 13 also contains the unfortunate passage about "being subject to authorities" no matter what).

[Lizzie Borden]

50. Paul wasn't too keen on a lot of people.

Not the most tolerant man.

[gaia_gardener]

55. I think Paul was a homosexual

in denial. Look at his "relationship" with Timothy. No one could be that misogynistic without having some major issues in his life.

[brentspeak]

57. There's been a lot of speculation about Paul being gay

But what we know about he and Timothy probably can't be accurately gleaned from a reading of the "Timothy" letters, as those letters were not genuine (ie. not actually written by Paul).

One thing is for certain -- Paul was definitely struggling with issues of sexuality of some kind, whether heterosexuality, homosexuality, adultery, unknown.

[Cheswick2.0]

70. not true

Paul was talking about pederasty. He was talking about socially damaging roman and greek practices that took heterosexual people from the focus on their families. He also talked about many other sins and told people not to judge but to love each other. He said no one's sins were worse than anyone else's and we had no right to judge them so.

Paul is not nearly the boogy man the anti religious left would like to portray him as.

[kayell]

9. "Methodist law bars "self-avowed, practicing homosexuals" from ministry."

Apparently, being a closeted gay or lesbian in a non-commited relationship would be ok. The stench of hypocrisy in these churches amazes me. Its that "self-avowed" thing that really bothers them. Why can't we just go and meekly hide our shame away? :grr:

[killbotfactory]

11. the bible is full of God condoned genocide, polygamy, murder, bigotry

I don't get why it's considered so holy, or why people would hold it up as a moral guide, much less someone the bible condemns to death for who they were born as.

[mctrotter5]

12. As a progressive Methodist in Cal, part of a reconciling congregation

I am saddened an shamed by this act against a good clergy person. At our Annual Conference these issues were discussed and the conservative arm won. To say I struggle, is to minimize my response.

[Merlin]

27. Keep fighting the good fight. Thank you for what you're doing.

In the long run, this fight will go our way, and those with the luddite views will be seen as fools. But, of course, as Keynes reminded us, in the long run, we're all dead. ;-)

[sui generis]

13. many many years ago I walked out of a methodist church

I was invited to play some cello pieces for seating and a couple of other spots, and the preacher (in Manhattan, Kansas) went on a rage against the eeeeevil sinner homosexuals and I just packed my stuff up and walked out while he was blowing his spew.

I hated playing churches anyway, ave maria this and some other pagan pieces that the christians like (and think are christian) for some reason -- never again!

[Pacifist Patriot]

17. *sigh*

'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' Matthew 25:40

[davidinalameda]

20. someone needs to remind these good church folk that

sad

[killbotfactory]

28. Leviticus 20:13 - Kill all homos

"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

[Pacifist Patriot]

32. Yes, but that specifically refers to men. Lesbians should

feel free to have at it if we want to get specific with regard to biblical instruction.

[mzmolly]

45. Leviticus refers to specific ceremonial procedures from what I understand.

For example it's not cool to wear a cotton/polyester blend either. ;)

*piff*

[bushisanidiot]

29. Blessed are they that have been persecuted for righteousness’ sake

for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 5:11 Blessed are ye when men shall reproach you, and persecute you, and say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets that were before you.

Matthew 5:10 - 5:12

Judge not, that ye be not judged. 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured unto you. 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me cast out the mote out of thine eye; and lo, the beam is in thine own eye? 7:5 Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

and Matthew 7:1 - 7:5

[Just Me]

40. I just,...I just think their decision is a damned shame.

She is a fabulous Reverend.

All this decision really does is encourage people to be secretive rather than honest,...like that has ever solved anything (Catholic pedophiles, Protestant alcoholics, Baptist gamblers, etc.).

At least she is blessed with a great deal of support.

[Stinky The Clown]

41. Its a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World

What the FUCK is wrong with these people????

I seem to recall that the Methodists were mainstream, not radical fundamentalists. Have they been infiltrated?

[RevCheesehead]

46. About United Methodists:

We are first of all a "connectional church." We have an episcopal form of government, and are linked together by individual conferences to jurisdictional (regional) conferences, and as a whole by the General Conference (which meets every 4 years to enact legislation, etc.).

That being said, the United Methodist Church is one which I fondly call a "chameleon" church. Our style of worship, interpretation of moral values, etc., tends to reflect the dominant religions of the geographical area, rather than a cohesive unity. Therefore, churches in the northeast and portions of the midwest are far more liberal than the Bible Belt, where Methodism is more conservative and evangelical (I call these "Bapto-Methodist Churches"). Our number of members are strongest in the South, therefore the church overall tends to vote more conservatively as a whole.

We have no official doctrine or dogma, outside of the General Rules and Articles of Faith. (think basic outline of Apostles' Creed here).

The interpretation of moral values are reflected in our Social Principles. They are in conflict with church practice. The formal rulebook is the Book of Discipline. It is what every pastor and congregational member promises to adhere to. We are bound by the Discipline, but the Discipline can be changed, and is revised every 4 years.

*************

I am greatly saddened by the outcome of this trial, but it is not unexpected. General Conference met this past year, and the issue of Gay Ordination was clearly spelled out (see above). Unfortunately, the members of the trial board had NO CHOICE but to convict, because Beth is a "self-avowed, practicing homosexual." Beth's decision to come out was her own, and she stood by her principles. I have nothing but admiration for her.

There are still plenty of Gay Clergy in the United Methodist Church. I happen to know quite a few. But since they're not "openly gay," they can remain in ministry. Our conference has chosen to look the other way - kind of a "don't ask - don't tell" policy.

Someday, we may grow up and rid ourselves of this ridiculous prejudice. Until then, I will continue to speak out in defense of my brothers and sisters, because they have every right to be here as I do.

[Stinky The Clown]

53. Rev, thank you for that .....

I know my post was my usual over the top rhetoric, replete with my usual and unashamed blue language. That said, I am surely not so closed minded as to think what any given organization does is reflective of all the members of that organization. I have always been one who judges people separate from groups. This action on the part of the Mthodist church does not change that.

The only thing I cannot tolerate is intolerance.

[murielm99]

67. What do you know about the confessing movement

in the United Methodist Church?

I know they charged Bishop Sprague with heresy, and the charges were dismissed. I have heard him speak a couple of times. He is admirable.

Have you read Affirmations of a Dissenter?

My church has some odd relationships with their gay membership.

Two of our most active gay members quit when the conference came out with the same old thing about how homosexuality was not compatible with Wesleyan teachings. One of them was our General Conference rep.

We still have other gay members. One woman who is in an openly gay relationship has been stripped of all her committee positions. She still attends church. Yet the congregation is tolerant of her, and our other gay members. I think it is the pastor, in our case.

We have a gay pastor who is a minister at two of our rural congregations. He is not out to most people. (But everyone "knows" he is gay). He does some Monday Bible studies and worship with gay people here who are not comfortable in UM congregations.

The whole thing is such a mess. We are so conflicted, and hypocritical. I would be happy to let the more fundamentalist elements in our church split off from the rest of us.

[Cheswick2.0]

69. sadly their position on this is also mainstream

They have not been infiltrated. They are struggling like most mainstream churches are with this issue. UCC is doing a bit better but even they have some churches who will not ordain or welcome homosexuals.

[llmart]

44. When I read stuff like this......

I thank my lucky stars for my now deceased parents that they didn't brainwash us with this organized religion shit. My six siblings and I are all very good people and we got that way without all the church mumbo jumbo, brainwashing, and guilt trips of organized religion. Guess you can know right from wrong without all the religious indoctrination.

[Cheswick2.0]

71. but apparently they did not raise you to have respect for others

I am part of an "organized" religion and I am not brain washed and have never believed in mumbo jumbo.

One of the things we organized in my organized religion was thousands of dollars to Haiti to pay teachers and feed the children at a school in Port o Prince.

[NickB79]

47. Does the UMC allow heterosexual ministers to marry?

I'm a Catholic, so my first thought when I read this was that, if the UMC only allows ministers that are celibate to preach (like the Catholic Church does), then she did violate their rules and warranted being dismissed as a minister. However, if they do allow heterosexual ministers to date and marry, their ruling is quite hypocritical.

[Merlin]

66. I think all Protestant religions allow ministers to marry.

Us Papes are the only ones with silly rules like celibacy. (Instituted, by the way, in the 5th century to help the church cut down on the expenses of maintaining priests--so the story goes.)

[KamaAina]

48. Rev. Stroud? This is Unitarian Universalism calling...

...we understand your current denomination has just blatantly discriminated against you because of your sexual orientation.

Here at UU, we abhor this practice. We've even established a "Welcoming Congregation" program for congregations that wish to affirm their acceptance of gay and lesbian parishioners (and ministers).

So won't you fill out this brief application and join the hundreds of ministers who have come to us from other Protestant denominations? Do it today! :-)

[brentspeak]

52. This IS the official United Methodist policy

The United Methodist Church is not exactly a finger-pointing type of denomination. Rev.Stroud knew their rules on this issue, so it's not like the Methodists were "persecuting" her.

[Swamp Rat]

60. BOOOO! Down with the Methodist Church!!! BOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

Rev. Irene Elizabeth Stroud is welcome to come to New Orleans for Mardi Gras and take part in a huge orgy mocking "the church."



edit: Maybe the Methodist Church would bomb babies too.

[PassingFair]

61. Stone Her!

Bloody country, bloody religion! Ugh

[lateo]

62. Shocked! Schocked I tell you....

In all seriousness though...I was visiting a local Methodist church the other day and asked some of the people who worked there about this. They were pretty sure this minister was going to get the hook. It seems they were right.

[andino]

63. Open Minds, Open Hearts, Open Doors.. All a big lie.

This will do more harm to them than good.

[I Love Alaska]

64. Christ

I don't think Christ would reject gays. Where is the love and tolerance??

[RevCheesehead]

68. EXACTLY!

I love the "Igniting Ministry" campaign, and I think its efforts are noble. But the sad truth is that many of our churches ARE NOT open.

I've often suggested that we take our slogan and add to it:
Open Hearts - Open Minds - Open Doors - Open Wallets.

But I'm proud to let you know that I have ACTIVELY spoken out on our church's hypocrisy, and will continue to do so.

[Merlin]

65. This is my former wife's parish. I'm sure she is devastated.

Tried to reach her, but she's probably at a vigil. I know these people are working hard to try to bring Christianity into the modern era. Good Christ, it's an uphill battle!

[yellowdogintexas]

74. Listen, I heard on the news that the parish has invited her to

stay as a lay minister. So apparantly they are willing to pay her to stay.

sounding like she was totally out in the community,and did this to bring the trial to a head..sort of like the Scopes trial back in the 20's


Sacrificed her ordination as an example, seems to me.

[Massachusetts]

75. The Tentacles of Religion

keep spreading far and wide and continue to create hatred and distrust with our species. I thought the pretext of most faiths is Love and Understanding of one another. Man keeps screwing around with this great concept and it just keeps backfiring all over the world.O8) :evilgrin:

[VegasWolf]

76. How accepting of them! n/t