Credit card 'bars Sabbath buying'

[emad]

BBC News


An Israeli bank says it is to launch a credit card that cannot be used on the Sabbath - the Jewish day of rest.

Bank Leumi, one of Israel's biggest banks, said it was developing the card in response to requests from the observant Jewish community.

Religious leaders say that hundreds of thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews do not currently own a credit card.

Strict Jews refuse to drive cars, use electricity or operate telephones during the Sabbath.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4063449.stm

BUT will if offer loyalty points to the faithfull, to be spent on the Day of Atonement, maybe????

[frogfromthenorth2]

1. Religion ... what can you say?.... Sheeps....

[Bono71]

2. Actually not a bad piece of marketing for a target market...

If the numbers of Orthodox Jews are at a point where it makes business sense, why not? It's what they want...

[SweetLeftFoot]

6. Given that British banks

now offer viable Islamic mortages than follow Islamic law and do not impose interest but are still financially viable for the banks, I can't see why this credit card won't work.

[Bono71]

8. Good point. If the market is there, why not cater to it?

[SweetLeftFoot]

13. Without wanting to be disrespectful

I'd like to see some marketing whizkids dream up the campaign for an Amish credit card.

[Bono71]

18. Lol...I'm originally from PA...some how I'm not sure it would

work.

[TO Kid]

16. I've read about those mortgages

The reason they're financially viable is due to semantics. There is a cost of borrowing imposed but they jump through some hoops to avoid calling it interest. It's based on a savings pool and the cost of borrowing is itemized as a "donation" to the next generation of borrowers, which is precisely how conventional lending works.

[kysrsoze]

24. I read an article in Wired about Kosher appliances.

It turns out that many major appliances have "Kosher" settings for turning on/off lights and burners. It was pretty funny, but interesting all the same.

[Danmel]

29. Shabbat Ovens

I have a friend who is very observant. Her oven has a "Shabbat" feature which keeps the oven on low so that things can be reheated with out turning the oven on and off- I think it also has a timer. There is a biblical prohibition against making a fire on the Sabbath so observant Jews don't start ovens or flames on cooking appliances. Thats also why they don't turn on lights.

Hey to each his own- I'll respect you if you respect me.

[aquart]

3. I will never say "sheeps."

And it horrifies me that you do. "Sheep" is the plural of "sheep."

Dear god, have we come to this???

[Bono71]

5. Lol...you mean 'mouses' is wrong, too?

[trogdor]

19. meeses!

As in, "I hates meeses to pieces!"

[On the Road]

26. Deers and Mooses and Sheeps -- Oh My!

[prayin4rain]

38. That is funny..I took it as a sound you know sheeeppss kinda of

just a breathy expression. Of course I have no idea the actual intent. Bad writing skills are in the interpretation of the beholder I guess. Sheeeppss who knows?

[SweetLeftFoot]

7. This service proudly offeredby the Bank Of Flanders.

[phantom power]

4. Our oven has a "sabbath" setting, something about keeping it on

for a whole day straight.

[SaveElmer]

9. Hey if this were Shrub...

He would try and pass a law mandating this for all credit card companies...at least this is voluntary!!!

[bushisanidiot]

11. That's not true. People wouldn't spend as much so his Citigroup and

MBNA buddies won't make as much $$$.

it's aaaaaall about the benjamins.

[bushisanidiot]

10. I guess all emergencies are forbidden by the makers of these cards?

nothing unusual is allowed to occur?? uh.. how do they manage that?

[Tace]

12. Good Point

[sangh0]

41. Stupid point

It takes more than mere ignorance to assume there are no provisions in the Sabbath laws that take emergencies into account. You do realize that the Israeli Army doesn't break for the Sabbath, don't you?

[lastliberalintexas]

61. Um,

I think s/he was talking about being able to use the *credit card* in the case of an emergency on the Sabbath, not whether Jewish law forbade acting in emergency situations on the Sabbath...

[sangh0]

64. Possible, but THAT is not what was said

The poster said "I guess all emergencies are forbidden by the makers of these cards? nothing unusual is allowed to occur?? uh.. how do they manage that?"

Nothing unusual is allowed to OCCUR??

One has to be extremely ignorant of religion to think that it prohibits unusual circumstances and emergencies. In fact, ignorance alone won't account for such an assumption. One must also have the arrogance to assume that one's own ignorant musings are accurate. The sort of arrogance that prohibits the poster from educating themselves on the matter BEFORE coming to any conclusions.

[lastliberalintexas]

68. Yes it is, sangho

"MAKERS OF THESE CARDS" is a pretty important modifier in that sentence and paragraph. The poster made no mention of Jewish law whatsoever, but directed her/his point specifically to the credit cards. I'm sorry that you didn't see that, but apparently you're not alone since there was another post on this as well.

[sangh0]

72. ridiculous

to say that these cards have nothing to do with Jewish law when the article makes it clear the SOLE PURPOSE of this was to comply with Jewish law. The SOLE REASON for prohibiting emergencies would be so that the cards would conform to Jewish law.

ANd the fact that oathers said the same thing is practically meaningless. The facts aren't subject to a majority vote. There are plenty of people who will claim that the religious worship an invisible man in the sky, even though no major religion calls for that.

[lastliberalintexas]

76. Good googly moogly

Stop being so darn defensive.

There is a big difference between a post which says that the *credit card maker* made no provision for the card's use in an emergency on the Sabbath and a post which says that *Jewish law* makes no provision for acting in an emergency on the Sabbath.

If you can't see that distinction then we really don't need to discuss this. Peace.

[sangh0]

78. Ahh, you post, and it's OK. I post it's "defensive"

If you had a real argument you wouldn't have to resort to a personal attack.

There is a big difference between a post which says that the *credit card maker* made no provision for the card's use in an emergency on the Sabbath and a post which says that *Jewish law* makes no provision for acting in an emergency on the Sabbath.

Not when the credit card makers intention is to make a credit card that complies with Jewish law.

[Book Lover]

54. Jewish law allows for emergencies

It's usually the christian fundies who are absolutist, not Jews. Jewish law is more flexible than that.

[hughee99]

93. If these cards are targeted toward

people who don't already own cards, then it would make sense that they have already have a plan for emergencies on sabbath since they have managed to survive this long without a card at all, wouldn't it?

[Tace]

14. How About One That Doesn't Work After 6 P.M.

So you can't go on a beer binge that you regret the next day?

[short bus president]

15. Erm...

shouldn't the truly devout be able to resist the temptation to use their otherwise-perfectly-functional credit card on Saturdays? And is this gonna be Greenwich Mean Time Sabbath, or will they somehow figure in a holy compensator for Earth's pesky rotation?

[smirkymonkey]

89. Thank YOU!

This idea is so idiotic, I don't know where to start.

Christian, Muslim, Jew, whatever - don't want to use your credit card on the Sabbath? Hey, then JUST DON'T USE YOUR CREDIT CARD ON THE SABBATH!

Am I missing something?

[KittyWampus]

17. Oh, Kosher Credit Cards

[dethl]

20. Isn't this kinda worthless?

If you're an orthodox Jew, you're not going to be leaving the house on the sabbath anyway except to go to services.

[Debbi801]

35. I agree. You're not going to see an Orthodox Jewish person shopping...

on Shabbot or any other High Holy Day.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leftynyc]

22. With all due respect

I know plenty of people who keep the Sabbath and they are most decidedly not insane.

[donsu]

32. when it comes to religion they are insane

nt

[sangh0]

42. I guess anybody who's different than you is insane

After all, you're the model for any and all sane behavior, like bigotry

[VegasWolf]

46. But it is by definition irrational. Invisible men in the sky can't

be rationalized, it defies all logic. St Augustine tried,
Kierkegaard tried, they all failed.

[sangh0]

47. Your argument is very irrational and I suspect you have hallucinations

The Jewish people do not believe in any "invisible men in the sky". I think you've had a hallucination.

[VegasWolf]

49. I didn't say Jewish people. Your response is irrational! n/t

[sangh0]

51. Umm, this thread is about a credit card for Orthodox Jews

and donsu specifically referred to Orthodox Jews as being "insane".

pay attention

[VegasWolf]

52. No, the subtext of this thread is religion. Polish your glasses!

see post 32 in the direct hierarchy!

[sangh0]

55. the post of mine you responded to was about Jews

and the post I was responding to specifically mentioned Jews.

see post 32 in the direct hierarchy!

You've edited out the context. Why did you skip post #21? Could it be because that's the post that started this sub-thread and it shows that you're wrong?

[VegasWolf]

57. Looks to me like Donsu didn't say anything about Jews. WTF, does

Catholics eating fish have to do with anything?

[sangh0]

60. Then I guess "religiously insane Jews"

has nothing to do with Jews.

Who knew?

:shrug:

[VegasWolf]

63. My only point that religion is by defination irrational Apologize

if I threw you off because of the Jewish context. You
can agree with my point or not.

[sangh0]

65. Your point was irrational

in that it was based on the idea that the religious believe in an invisible man.

Christians don't believe, Jews don't believe that, and neither do Muslims, so where did you have this hallucination about an invisible man?

[VegasWolf]

67. Sigh!!! n/t

[sangh0]

69. What a rousing defense for your hallucination!!

I bet you can't name one religion that believes God is an invisible man, but you'll insist it's true anyway, all the time insisting that YOU are rational.

Yeah, right. It's real "rational" to make a claim you can't back up.

[VegasWolf]

79. Okay, how about invisible being? that rock your boat?

[sangh0]

80. They don't believe in that either

but keep on exhibiting your ignorance.

THAT rocks my boat

[VegasWolf]

82. I'm sorry, I was raised Catholic, they believe in a bunch of invisible

beings. You need to polish your religious study a bit more.

[sangh0]

84. I'm sorry. but Catholics aren't everyone

They're not even the majority of Christians. Not only that, but according to the Pope, Catholicism doesn't support a belief in invisible men.

"Spirits", but not "invisible men". I'm sorry if the difference is incomprehensible to those with a childish understand of Catholic philosohy.

Next you'll tell me that Catholicism teaches that Heaven and Hell are places you go to when you die

[VegasWolf]

85. You are aware that people reading your posts will doubt your

basic intelligence if all the only way that you can express
yourself is by personal attacks.

[sangh0]

88. Yeah, that's what I'm worried about

.

[VegasWolf]

90. Irrationality borders on insanity, sometimes the differences blur. n/t

[sangh0]

91. Does that mean you're ready to identidy

the hallucination that told you someone is worshipping invisible men in the sky?

Or are you going to keep pretending that actually happened?

[VegasWolf]

92. Invisible beings to be precise! n/t

[sangh0]

94. So the answer is "NO"

you have no example, but you'll continue to insist it's not a hallucination.

[VegasWolf]

95. Oh no. Not me. But since you have this fascination with hallucinations,

let me offer for your perusal a thought. This thought
is a variation of the famous observation of Rene Descartes'
"I think therefore I am". Remember his logic for achieving
his assertion. Same logic applies to the variation,
"how do I know if I am sane?" See, the mind that is
judging the rational world is by definition an insane mind.
So, when hallucinations occur how do you know that they
are hallucinations?

[sangh0]

96. How do I know they are hallucinations?

Simple - I'm not Descartes

[VegasWolf]

97. Very true! n/t

[leftynyc]

59. How very tolerant of you (eom)

[Phx_Dem]

23. The orthodox are certainly observant

but I don't think calling them insane is very constructive. They try to follow all ten commandments not just 7 or so.

[Debbi801]

37. LOL Actually, there are 613.

[Phx_Dem]

73. I realize that....

I was referring to the mitva of "keeping the sabbath" Glad you found my post funny....

[Debbi801]

75. I'm sorry, if you thought I was being insulting...

I was laughing at the 10 vs. 7 thing. And a lot of people only think there were 10 commandments. Please accept my apologies.

I'm Reform now, but spent my early years in an Orthodox family, keeping Kosher, going to an Orthodox girls school, etc. So, having been there, I cannot grasp the need for this type of credit card.

[tx_dem41]

25. Can anyone on this forum show respect for another's religion?

Why all the laughter and/or anger on the thread? This isn't some government program being imposed on everyone. This is the free market system at work, yet we criticize it. And, this is someone's religious belief, yet we deride it.

Oh well, back to your fun. :eyes:

[FlaGranny]

27. It's not that the religion is

funny for not wanting to shop on the Sabbath - what is funny is that they obviously don't trust themselves not to shop on the Sabbath and therefore need a credit card that will not allow them to do so.

What's probably really behind this credit card's appeal is that the orthodox Jew can give it to his teenaged kids, and THEY won't be able to use it on the Sabbath. Now, that makes more sense.

[Toucano]

30. Interesting point

but do they have currency that becomes radioactive on the Sabbath?

What difference could a credit card make in stopping teenaged kids from transacting business? This would only prevent them from making credit card transactions on the Sabbath.

[FlaGranny]

33. Of course, you're right,

but that's the only legitimate explanation I could come up with. Besides, if the parent gave the kid the credit card, but no money, then the idea would work. Whatever way you look at it, it seems silly.

[sangh0]

77. weak logic

What difference could a credit card make in stopping teenaged kids from transacting business? This would only prevent them from making credit card transactions on the Sabbath.

It's like saying "So what difference could the murder laws make in stopping crime? The murder laws only prevent murder."

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. A foolish adherence to consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds.

[sangh0]

43. I doubt that people who call the religious "insane"

know enough about the religious to assume that the reason for this is "they obviously don't trust themselves not to shop on the Sabbath and therefore need a credit card that will not allow them to do so"

[FlaGranny]

48. Well, Sang0, I have NEVER, EVER

called ANYONE insane, religiously, or otherwise, on this site. You are confusing me with someone else. I was only commenting on the thought that it was funny that "they obviously don't trust themselves." My take on the issue was that the REAL reason would be to prevent their teenagers from shopping on the Sabbath. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough. I have never disparaged anyone's religion on this site, although I have stated my own beliefs in the past.

Edit - grammar.

[sangh0]

50. I know you didn't say that

I was referring to the people who did. You were speaking of the people who called the religious "insane", and I jumped into the discussion and so I also referred to those who call the religious "insane". I never said that you said that.

[FlaGranny]

58. Okay. Thought you had me

confused with someone else. I would never say that.

[sangh0]

62. I've noticed that

I have noticed that you have expressed your own opinions on the matter, and done so without needlessly disparaging other beliefs. I'm sorry for not being clear about that.

[Toucano]

28. I don't care if it's a religious belief

or simple garden variety psychosis, if it's funny, it's funny.

The thought that they would need the bank to restrict the ability to use the card on the Sabbath it hilarious!

Aren't they supposed to follow the "God's laws" because they're commanded to rather that because the bank says so? If so, then why ask the bank to disable the card on the Sabbath?

It's an absurd farce!

[sangh0]

45. Ever hear of teenagers?

The parents might have the self-control to keep from shopping on the Sabbath, but did you really assume that orthodox teenagers have such self-discipline merely because of their religion?

Or do you think Orthodox Jewish teenagers just MIGHT be as impulsive as other teenagers?

[tx_dem41]

71. My card has a spending limit on it. I guess that's an ABSURD FARCE too..

It keeps me from being tempted. What a farce!

[sangh0]

44. No, their "liberalism" is too "pure" to tolerate any differences

.

[elsiesummers]

31. Boycott: We need a credit card that doesn't work at Republican businesses

What would be easier to create in terms of actual function - a credit card that doesn't work in red/Repbulican voting states.

It probably wouldn't change spending habits significantly - because Democrats in Red states wouldn't be able to use this card except when travelling - and we all have to shop somewhere.

But, it would send a message...

[MADem]

34. What a load of CRAP!!!

If you are truly observant, you don't need a card that won't LET you buy something on the day of rest...you simply exercise personal self control and keep the plastic in the wallet. This is a way of taking the control, which is the whole article of faith, away from the person and putting it on the card. STUPID. And it blows the whole point of being observant.

Also, the law allows that one can break Sabbath in an emergency. If your spouse is dying, you can call 911. If the kid is deathly ill and needs the medicine, you can pull out the card and pay for it (after you call a cab to get to the pharmacy).

They might as well call it the "I CAN'T CONTROL MYSELF" card.

Stupid. Total marketing. All about profit. BULL!!

But of course, that's just my considered opinion!!!

[tx_dem41]

36. Its all about profit....well, of course it is, but is that a bad thing?

I am not for profiteering when someone is hurt by it. But, tell me, who is hurt by this? How many things by Government are based on the "I CAN'T CONTROL MYSELF" philosophy? Yet, we liberals, usually find ourselves on the side of Government when those laws are debated. So, why do we find ourselves on the other side in this instance?

[VegasWolf]

40. I don't think any of us are on the other side of the fence. I don't

here anyone arguing that they can't do this. It's
just that the whole concept is so incredibly absurd
to a lot of us almost like some bizzaro universe.

[VegasWolf]

39. But can't they use their Am Ex cards on those days? n/t

[Book Lover]

53. Why just not use the card on the sabbath?

I don't get it - if you are stricly observant, why not just don't use the card on Saturday?

[sangh0]

56. teenagers

Do you think that teenagers who are Orthodox Jews are any more self-disciplined than teenagers who aren't Orthodox Jews?

[Book Lover]

70. Then it's their sin to commit

It seems to me that you can choose not to give your child a credit card and prevent them from enjoining an occasion of sin. Or is that verbage too Catholic?

Aren't there any rabbis on DU who can render an opinion?

spelling on edit

[sangh0]

74. Not too Catholic, but VERY conservative

It's sounds similar to one of the reasons conservatives give for banning abortions - she shouldn't have had sex. She could have chosen to not have sex.

And nowehere do you give a reason why it would be wrong to give one's teenage child a card that only works six days a week instead of seven.

[Book Lover]

81. Wow - I've been called conservative!

What a hoot. Thanks :-)

Seriously now, please, before we start flaming each other: the verbage I use is because I am a former Catholic. I understand completely that this is not being forced on people. I am not calling this wrong; I just don't fully understand the reasoning. That's why I was asking if there was a rabbi in the house - I was wondering what a rabbi would say in answer to my question. That's all.

[sangh0]

86. No, YOU aren't conservative, but the idea you expressed is

There's a difference. I consider myself a liberal, but I do hold some conservative positions. I consider a belief in the sanctity of sentient life to be a conservative position, and I believe in that. It doesn't make me a conservative. It makes me a liberal with an open mind who has some conservative beliefs.

[Phx_Dem]

83. I wonder if it has anything to do with teenagers

Maybe the Haredi (orthodox) want to do business with companies that follow the commandments??

[bleedingheart]

66. this is about personal choice...no one forces anyone to get this

however I know a few people who might not mind having a credit card that helps them curb their spending by not allowing charges at certain times...

[DemBones DemBones]

87. The level of immaturity at DU never ceases to amaze me. eom

[Moderator]

98. Locking

This thread is no longer providing productive discussion