New photos of difft abuse.

[hollowdweller]

Man! Say all you want about the stress of war and support our troops but I think we need to go back to the drawing board on training these guys.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6646711/

[disillusioned1]

1. Nintendo and day care trained them n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. No, no the problem is NO T the training but

leadership, or rather lack off.

Trust me, you can train the troops extremely well, but if they are badly led (and in this case it starts way at the top, as in oh, the CiC and the SecDef), you will have these problems. SOme of these are problems, some of them are a crisis... and finding out what is a problem and what is a crisis is part of the problem.

After all we need to find this out by actually having direct intervention in the field and correcting the very serious problem of leadership that we currently have.

Oh and I do speak with some authority on this. Bad leadership leads to this from the best troops, good leadership can turn even the worst trained of troops into pretty good soldiers.

Now we need to get these troops the leadership they need, and unfortunately Diebold and Sequoia have other plans...

[MADem]

10. I agree with you

The issue is leadership. The kids joining today and for the last decade or more are higher quality in terms of training, intelligence and fitness than we have ever seen. They want to do well, they want to serve honorably, they want to succeed. But the leadership at the very top is failing them. You teach someone to obey orders, to execute missions swiftly and in accordance with plans, and they go and do what they are told. We need to change out the people who are giving the damn orders.

And on a somewhat related note, check this crap out:
http://www.mediachannel.org/views/dissector/affalert294.shtml

Let the propaganda network begin!

[Arianrhod]

15. No, the problem is a lack of integrity, humanity and compassion

that is growing deeper and stronger in our country every day. The problem is fear and hatred and bigotry. The problem is a lack of real, genuine spiritual morals, which have been replaced by yahoo-ing superstition and greed motivated politics. The problem is that these troops, having been raised on the false god of their belly to worship the beast of consumerism, are incapable of responding in strength when faced with a truly life threatening situation. While I am willing to attribute some of this weakness to their upbringing in a self-absorbed culture, some of it has to be attributed to the individuals themselves. We are each responsible for our own actions.

[PsychoDad]

17. Thank you.

That was well said.I agree, and thank you.

[Arianrhod]

19. And thank you. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. I'll ask the question

Have you EVER been in teh military? Or for that matter any paramilitary organization?

If you said yes, have you ever been faced with the situation where you have to actually DISOBEY a direct and very ilegal order?

Now this is the first set of questions....

The second set is... do you know what true leadership looks like? Leadership does flow from top down... and when you have GOOD leadership you have extremely good kids doign amazingn things. When yuo have BAD leadership, and this is the case... you have this.

I am not excusing the individual... after all Sergeants and Officers SHOULD KNOW BETTER... but when you have the future attorney general of the United States say... the Conventions of War are QUAINT... I have to wonder if they are now even getting the training... troops used to, but I have to wonder.

Oh and I am sure there are troops taking notes and playing the role of observers until they can go to any organization willing to listen... you see in an ideal military, (up to 2000), going over to your chaim usually got something done. These days people with ethics and who are WILLING TO DISOBEY those orders are being removed... or just given point during patrol.

By the way, on to question one, I have, and to question two, I have... Oh and I led my kids and they did extremely amazing things over the years. Oh before you ask, not the US Military, but I have learned a bit or two about leadership and even leadership under fire.

[hangemhigh]

3. OMFG!

I am surprised, stunned and ashamed. All over again. Freedom on the fucking march. My ass. Sooner or later, the outrage will manifest itself in horrible retaliation toward the US. You could read the spin in the damned article on the MSNBC link......"Oh, new pictures of fresh torture, now everyone's going to call us the bad guys." Ya think?

[saigon68]

4. Gen. Mark Kimmitt = WAR CRIMINAL

A former military spokesman in Iraq said Saturday new pictures showing apparent abuse of Iraqi prisoners were the acts of an isolated few but will be used by some to try to tarnish the entire U.S. military.



Gen. Mark Kimmitt, now based in Qatar, spoke on the pan-Arab television network a day after the U.S. military launched a criminal investigation into photographs that appear to show Navy SEALs in Iraq sitting on hooded and handcuffed detainees.

Other photos show what appear to be bloodied prisoners, one with a gun to his head.

ON EDIT--- I'D LIKE TO SEE THAT LITTLE MOTHER FUCKER (KILLER KIMMITT) FROG-MARCHED INTO A FEDERAL COURT SOME DAY.

[daleo]

5. One account I read said "what appeared to be blood"

When describing some prisoners bleeding head. If these are from March 2003 (the invasion), things were bad right from the start.

[genieroze]

6. The were shown and shared on

http://www.Smugmug.com It seems to be a photo sharing site.

[George_S]

8. From Portraits to Professional

No prisoner abuse category.

[genieroze]

13. ROTFL. Good line eom

[hollowdweller]

9. I think Bush casting this as Good against Evil has a lot to do with this

If you dehumanize the enemy then it's easy to do inhuman things to prisoners.

All I know is the US soldiers are seeming more and more like nazi stormtroopers and less and less like liberators or even professional military to my eyes.

[sarahlee]

18. which says something else about one of the soldier's wife

That she - who had not been under attack or anything else - and was fully aware of the other photo scandals still thought it was worth it to post these pictures publicly.

Is she that stupid?
Is she a "whistle blower"
Did she think this was "ok????"

And if she didn't do it in an attempt to get the story out (whistle blower scenerio) then I want to know what church she goes to as well.

It will be interesting if we get to see those questions answered.

[George_S]

7. Every day police stuff in the states.

No biggie.

[Disturbed]

12. Somewhat understandible...

that harsh treatment is given to the enemey by the less well trained but when Navy Seals who are highly trained beat a prisoner to death it is harder to understand. When commanders in the field call the enemy Satan it becomes easier to understand that the troops start to veer into barbarism. I feel that this will get worse in the two wars that the Neo Facists started.

[gottaB]

11. The isolated few, the proud, the mar--

--uh, sorry, I meant to say "Be as isolated as you can be." Oops, that's not it. "Torture, Being Isolated, and the pursuit of all those who threaten it..."

"It was easier to torture people yesterday"

And coming soon for PlayStation,

Grinning is the Objective
Torture is Acceptable
Feeling is Intolerable

Man, if that doesn't bring in some great new recruits, I don't know what will.

[saigon68]

14. TOO BAD DR. JOSEPH MENGELE IS DEAD.

Dr. Rudolf Vrba recalls the chilling scene with remarkable clarity. At the age of 18, while helping sort through luggage on the arrivals ramp at Auschwitz, he witnessed Joseph Mengele and other Nazi doctors consign Jewish deportees to the gas chamber without a hint of emotion.


The two dozen doctors Vrba saw at Auschwitz all had one feature in common, he said. They took no notice of the "cajoling, beating, shouting, crying, shrieking and murder" prisoners were subjected to before their examinations. The doctors' demeanor was "polite and civilized," said Vrba. "I never saw any other expression on their faces.

"In the absence of personal conversations with the doctors, I can only guess at their motives. But I saw them almost every day, and I could see the immediate results of their actions." The doctors and non-commissioned officers all seemed like "senior or junior members of one happy family who understood their common task.

"They were deliberate and unconscionable murderers and thieves, pure and simple," added Vrba, rejecting a popular argument forwarded by psychologist Dr. Robert Lifton in 1986. In his book, The Nazi Doctors: Medical Killing and the Psychology of Genocide, Lifton suggested doctors who carried out experiments, sterilization and euthanasia were victims of a complex state of denial, encouraged to disregard the ethics of their actions and see their work as "nothing more than applied biology

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Wanna bet the conventions are now so last week

when they get in the Draftees?

This is what is going on... they have chosen to ignore all and when draftees come in, it will be ten times as bad...

[saigon68]

16. MORE ON WAR CRIMINAL KIMMITT

Brig. Gen. Kimmitt, US Army, is the PR man for the Iraq massacre and the deputy commander. His dad is a double-dipping ex-Army man making his money off of the war his son is promoting. One is a war criminal. The other is a war profiteer.


http://www.melbourne.indymedia.org/print.php?id=67286

Kimmitt's father, Joseph Stanley (Stan) Kimmitt, a former Col. in Army (an artilleryman like
Mark), has parlayed his military service into a Washington, DC, public relations, or lobbyist, firm
-- Kimmitt, Senter, Coates, & Weinferter. As Gen. Kimmitt promotes the war in Iraq, his father
represents defense contractors such as Textron Defense Systems, Talley Defense Systems, and
Boeing (maker of the Army's Apache attack helicopter).

The Kimmitts are a classic example of the revolving-door syndrome of U.S. military officers and
defense contractors. Such double-dipping is commonplace. It is one of the things President
Eisenhower meant when he referred to the dangers of the "military-industrial complex." It is a
self-replicating monster that feeds on war, death, and destruction

Ironically, S. Joseph Kimmitt was the secretary and close friend of Sen. Mike Mansfield of
Montana, after Kimmitt's military service. Sen. Mansfield came to see the Vietnam war as
unnecessary and would doubtless be opposed to the Iraq war if he were still alive.

Gen. Kimmitt's brother, Joseph "Jay" Kimmitt, is a Washington, DC, lobbyist employed by
Wisconsin-based Oshkosh Truck Corp. the No. 1 maker of concrete mixers, trash haulers and
military trucks. Now it wants a bigger slice of the homeland-security pie, too. And Jay Kimmitt
hired a Washington-based PR firm (not his father's) to get it. Another example of the revolving
door, Jay Kimmitt served 27 years in the Army he is now selling to.

[VolcanoJen]

22. LBN Rules... locking

The Rules for Posting in the Latest Breaking News Forum require posters to use the published title of linked-to articles as their subject line.

In this case, the subject line should read "Navy investigating new Iraqi prisoner photos."

At any rate, this is a duplicate post, so please continue discussion within the original LBN thread on this topic, which can be found here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1043445

Thanks!

VolcanoJen
DU Moderator