Kerry, in NH visit, sounds a lot like a candidate (going to IRAQ)

[juliagoolia]

http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showfast.html?article=47936


MANCHESTER — It sounded like the opening bars of a new campaign song, not an elegy to a lost election.

U.S. Sen. John F. Kerry last night delivered a rousing call to action to a room filled with hundreds of supporters at the Center of New Hampshire Radisson Hotel.

“Keep up the fight. Keep New Hampshire blue forever,” Kerry shouted, referring to the red/blue color code that television networks used to differentiate between states won by Republican President George W. Bush and those where Democrat Kerry was victorious.

...........more snip

To the cheers of those who volunteered and contributed to his campaign in New Hampshire, Kerry announced he will go to Iraq in January and he promised to “continue to fight for a foreign policy that lives up to the values of this country.”

------------
Also speaks of a PAC and money donated to WA recount and LA recounts.

[politicasista]

1. Let the complaining continue..

unfortunately. :cry:

[saracat]

2. Damn It !

[eleonora]

3. Why is he going to Iraq? n/t

[mitchtv]

5. something he could've done before the election

ooor thing

[sportndandy]

16. To pilot a swift boat up the Tigris

Oh captain my captain!

[Bono71]

78. LOL

[sandnsea]

4. Ohio voting

"Referring to GOP voter registration challenges in Ohio that may have cost him that state’s vital electoral votes, Kerry said, “We’re going to clearly bring (attention to) the rights of American people to vote without being harassed.”

“It is a disgrace that we have partisanly run elections in states where people don’t have faith in the outcome. We need to make sure all votes are properly recorded.”

AND

"He said, “Life is an on-going struggle and you were with me and we are going to take that fight on to the country. . . ."

The rest of you can do what you want, I'm following somebody who knows where he's going and has a 40 year record to back it up.

[MarianJack]

6. My Thoughts...

...exactly!!!

[masjenkins]

8. i got another zogby poll tonight..

One of the questions was "If the 2008 primary was held today, who would you vote for?" .. It listed all the usual suspects,, Hillary, etc.. I picked Kerry. I have been wanting to say this for a few weeks,, after reading numerous "what have the Dems done wrong.. sob sob" John Kerry will make an excellent president, no matter how or when it happens. Democrats need to stick with things more.. kind of like glue. (We may need some clamps tho)

[MarianJack]

9. All TooTrue!

And, good night masjenkins. I'm taking my insomniac (at least tonight) and rather large (unfortunately always) rear end to bed.

[sandnsea]

11. Yes he would

Best President of my adult life, best since John Kennedy. Maybe when some of these goofballs actually have to choose between centrist Hillary and liberal John Kerry, they'll get a clue.

[Lizzie Borden]

70. me too. I think he knows what he's doing.

[benfranklin1776]

7. That's fine. I'll follow him to the ends of the earth IF he fights Bush.

Its a foregone conclusion Junior is going to try to ram his agenda for the 1400's through Congress and attempt to gut Social Security, Environmental laws, Consumer Laws and Civil Liberties. Much of his regressive garbage can be stopped in the Senate and filibustered. If Kerry leads a ferocious fight in the Senate to stop Junior's attempted evisceration of every law and program that has ever been enacted to benefit ordinary Americans, and I mean a REAL fight, not empty tokenism ala Daschle (say its a bad bill but vote for it anyways), then he is eminently worthy of support. If he cowers and appeases this band of thugs then he needs to be left by the wayside along with the other useless legislative flotsam and jetsam that refuses to fight for us.

[sandnsea]

10. He always has

Environmental laws? Civil Rights? Social Security? Consumer Laws? Workers Rights? Health Care?

You don't know anything about John Kerry if you can even say that crap. We wouldn't HAVE most of what we've gotten in the last 20 years without him.

[benfranklin1776]

26. Uh yeah which is why I supported him and was an organizer in his campaign.

However I was drawn to the fighting John Kerry, the one that exposed BCCI and fought to increase environmental and fuel efficiency standards in Congress, and who, in the primaries, was not afraid to call CEO's that moved their corporate headquarters to Bermuda and still wanted government contracts "Benedict Arnolds." Regrettably, after winning the nomination, for a variety of reasons, mostly dealing with the idiotic "strategy" spun from certain quarters in Washington DC his considerable legislative record spent fighting for these causes, and a host of others, was deemphasized and his natural fighting, prosecutorial nature was strait jacketed so as not to supposedly offend swing voters. An errant strategy, if there ever was one, since it did not showcase for the voters who did not know him the best aspects of his considerable career and left him too vulnerable to being defined by Rove and company on their terms.

That however is the past. It is the future I am concerned with most, the immediate future. Stopping Bush's regressive agenda and restoring integrity to the voting process is paramount. If he assumes the position of point man for this fight then I am there with him and will be with him in 2008 but if he does not step forward and assume a public leadership role, and a visible one in fighting that ordinary people can see and hear, then it is time to go in a different direction.

[juliagoolia]

13. ditto! ha. .. YUp thats my take and I m stikin to it. n/t

[LittleClarkie]

12. You know I'm there.

I'll continue to be a Kerry Krishna (sometimes I think it's approaching that level).

[DrZeeLit]

19. Thank you. I agree. Forty years of SERVICE means a lot to me.

This is a tenacious man with class. He didn't take the low road. He's going to do it with hard work, even if it takes another four years.

We haven't had anyone in the Democratic party who has been willing to work hard after a loss, to come back and try again.

Remember.... Nixon lost to Kennedy. He waited eight years -- through Kennedy's term, Johnson vs. Goldwater. And then, he came back.

I don't see another candidate on the horizon willing to begin work now. And that's what it's going to take. And that means four more years of SERVICE. He's in it for the long haul. He has a lot of guts to get up, move on, go to NH and speak to his supporters.

I don't plan to throw stones at him now. No way.

[gordianot]

79. He is going to have to fight daily.

Who know what is coming our way. Kerry In Iraq would be a great opening shot.

[depakid]

14. If Kerry had wanted to run in 2008, then

he should have waited until 2008.

Fact is, he more or less quit fighting back in August- complaining that there wasn't money enough to run ads- and it turns out that he's sitting on $15 million+ in cash.

Sorry- but I'll never trust the man again. During the primary season, he promised not to run a Dukakis style campaign- and that's just what he proceded to do once he had the nomination.

I don't intend to be around in 2008, but wherever I am- if I decide to cast a vote in the Democratic primary, Kerry probably won't be my first choice. I say probably because who knows what Liebermanesques the Dems may scrape from the barrel next time....

[JI7]

15. he could NOT spend that money in August

because he accepted public funding. that's why he gave most of it to other candidates through the dnc. but the law allowed him to use the money AFTER the elections for legal expenses which is why he kept some of it.

[bklyncowgirl]

18. Let's be fair.

Kerry's money problems in August happened because the Democrats held their convention in July and the Republicans held theirs in late August. From what I understand, Kerry's campeign had only a set amount of money until the elections and they had to stretch it out over four months while the republicans got theirs for three months.

Kerry's august problems had less to do with money than with his failure to respond immediately and powerfully to the Swift Boat attacks.

In my opinion, Kerry was very poorly served by his advisors and by the mainstream Democratic Party.

[Zhade]

64. "...Kerry was very poorly served by his advisors ..."

What do you expect, when one of the advisors (Will Marshall) was a PNAC-endorsing traitor, and another (Rubin) undercut Kerry's Iraq arguments by saying Kerry would have gone to war to get rid of Hussein had he been president, WMD or no WMD?

[SoCalDem]

65. The Dems should have changed the date..

The conventions should be within weeks of each other..That way whatever "bump in the polls" they get is a more realistic snapshot..

I don't think I have the energy for the never-ending-campaign stuff anymore.

The electors have not even MET yet, votes are still uncertified, votes are still being counted, and there are recounts going on.. I hardly think that "who's gonna run in '08" should be our focus..:grr:

[Merlin]

20. I agree he campaigned like Dukakis.

In fact, as I think about his persona and speaking style, it is almost a perfect match for Dukakis.

I don't know the legalities of not spending the $15 million that was left over. But I do know that back in May, when the Bushies were spending $50 million to define him as a flip-flopper and an extremist, he just lay back and let them do it. He did not respond at all.

The explanation for that incredible failure--which I screamed and hollered about at the time, but was told by all the DU stalwarts I was being an alarmist--was that they "didn't know if we'd be able to raise enough money" for the non-federal part of the campaign. That was preposterous, given that Howard Dean proved, a couple of months earlier, that a good Dem, campaigning against Bush, can raise all he needs. It was a failure of nerve which presaged a losing campaign that--as you rightfully point out--ran out of gas near the end. The campaign then failed utterly to respond adequately to the Slick Liars.

I am not at all happy with Kerry's leadership. I'm not saying we have somebody better standing by, but I'll be damned if I'll sign off on him now.

[saracat]

34. Dukakis was not halfagain the speaker Kerry is.

Nor did he have his demeanor or presence.This is a ridicuous comparsion. Nobody can argue Kerry lost the debates. That being said, I agree Kerry shouldn't have listened to certain DLC and DNC elements in his campaign. It is now up to us to reeducate the Party on how to get votes and expand its base!

[Lost4words]

23. Kerry let every single one of us down! he's establishment

His time to fight is over, I'll never support him in any way again.

I look at Ukraine and see what should have happened here. with just a little support from kERRY eDWARDS IT WOULD HAVE gOD dAMN iT!

kERRY nO tHAKNS!

[lynx rufus]

27. Thank You for speaking common sense

WHY. DIDN'T. KERRY. FIGHT. ?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

41. Go read up on how it works

You clearly don't understand the process.

The election's not over, and how do you know Kerry's not fighting? Wouldn't he be mad to do it out in public when there's no need for publicity? Remember 2000, when Al Gore played right into the Republican hands?

Go read about how a President is elected. You'll feel better.

[LittleClarkie]

29. The Ukraine was the people talking

to hell with support from Kerry.

If the people wanted it, why don't we see more outrage and protest, Kerry or no Kerry?

I'm sick of hearing "If Kerry would have said so, I'd have protested. It's all his fault I'm still sitting on my butt."

HORSEHOCKEY!

I look at the Ukraine and I'm so jealous I can't see straight. Salute them my friends. They are now the new shining light of democracy.

[LisaL]

48. Their leader (in Ukraine) told them to fight.

Our leader told us to follow Bush.
Maybe that made some difference.

[Lizzie Borden]

71. Their leader...

the situation in the Ukraine is not what most people think. It is certainly not black and white. The west has had a huge part to play in the division there. When did Kerry say, "Follow Bush"? I must have missed that.

[LittleClarkie]

76. He called for a healing of the rift

it took all of two weeks to see that any lip service that Bush paid to a healing was crap.

More like a heeling.

They were the pretty words you say when you are conceeding. Kerry didn't tell us to collapse at Bush's feet. He called for some sign of a working together. That was slapped down pretty quickly. Bush turned even harder to the right than he had before. Now Kerry is calling for us to fight. I hear precious few talking like that. Reid for one, Dean for another. Bill Clinton isn't, and Hillary is voting in favor of much of their agenda, as bizaare as that is. I will support these men.

The Bush plans I hear for Social Security and Income Tax scare me to death. So many will be left in the cold. These people are not just rightwing nutjobs. They're incompetent rightwing nutjobs.

I wish with all my heart Kerry was my president. I know some of you could give a shit. He was the anti-Bush, nothing more. But unless I find out he's ravaging puppies or something, I'll follow him into the fire.

Meanwhile back at the ranch, YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE TO BE TOLD TO FIGHT! DID THE PROTESTERS OF VIETNAM WAIT UNTIL SOMEONE TOLD THEM TO PROTEST? No. If you think Kerry waiting for hard evidence is a copout, then I say to you that waiting for some magic word from Kerry is also a copout. Get the freak out there if you feel strongly enough.

[SammyWinstonJack]

30. All Kerry had to do was asked and 56 million of us

would have backed him all the way to the WH. Instead, he swiftly conceded to the election stealing chimp and just to add insult to injury, he asked us to unite behind the Evil monster. Kerry no thanks!

[saracat]

35. Nonsense. Even now in Ohio only 500 of us get off our butts.

It seems it is too cold to save democracy!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

36. Concessions are meaningless

Keep in mind, while you're fuming about what Kerry did or didn't do, that the election is far from over.

My money still says John Kerry has a really big fight in him, and the legal strategizing that's going on right now - and has been - is being done under the strictest cover, the better to thwart Republican challenges or roadblocks.

I'm not conceding for one second that Fuckface won the election, since it's not over and there's no winner yet.

Keep that in mind.

[lastliberalintexas]

43. No, they're not

For the vast majority of the American public, Kerry's concession gave validity to Bush's "win". Even when fraud is discovered, most Americans will simply dismiss it as sour grapes by Dems. Giving his concession speech was the absolute worst thing that Kerry did as a candidate, which says a lot since he made many mistakes.


And I don't say that as a Kerry hater. I actually can understand why he (and Dean if rumors are to be believed) didn't want to win. The repubs have managed to screw up everything in the last 3 and 1/2 years, so much so that we're likely facing a draft and a recession/depression NO MATTER WHO is president. Why would he have wanted to be in office when that happens? But then he shouldn't have run for the job, either.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lastliberalintexas]

59. Oh- you got me!

I have a whole different agenda here alright. :eyes:

If you'd read my post correctly, you'd see that I never said that *I* believe a concession speech means it's over. I said the vast majority of the American public did. If you knew anything of me or my posts, you'd know that I do believe the vast majority of the American public are uneducated clods who deserve to get themselves all agitated. I think they've proven it time and again, so I'm not here to defend them.


You should know, OldLeftieLawyer, that in our profession, even the *appearance* of impropriety is frowned upon. Appearance is no less important in politics- and Kerry's concession gave Bush the undeserved appearance of the victor.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lastliberalintexas]

68. You did

Apparently we can't have a fruitful discussion of this issue without personal insults, though. Have a good day.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

69. Fruitful discussion?

Seriously, go read up on the Constitution and then how the electoral process works. You'll find all sorts of information there that will ease your mind and give you, I believe, insight into how the process works.

There's a wealth of information out there, and I'm sure you'll find something suited to your needs.

Good luck.

[Imagevision]

96. Kerry said he may run in 08 -- after completing 2004 I Guess so!

People, we're not doing too badly...its been 5 weeks after the election -- Conyers said yesterday he wanted to have investigation panel to be held in Ohio next.

We don't need Fox - Limbaugh - Hannity runing off their smear BS. Kerry is handling this superbly -- too many want Kerry out their sceaming fraud...nah!...relax, things are coming along nicely.

[sendero]

72. I've been hearing this...

... since day one. At first, I really wanted to believe it, hell I did believe it. But at this point, I'm having trouble buying it at all.

Every day that goes by, every cabinet position appointment made, every single event confirming Bush** as president makes it increasingly impossible that even if fraud were exposed it would affect who is getting inaugurated.

It's over, and there is not one shred of real evidence that Kerry is doing anything at all. That's because he isn't.

[saracat]

86. No he isn't .Check his record. And look at the recent votes! Kerry was

and can be a rebel!

[TheDonkey]

37. Yea, Dukakis def. won all three debates

:eyes:

Kerry has fought and will continue to fight for us.

[bklyncowgirl]

17. New Hampshire already!

No! No! We're not ready for this.

Psst, John, here's a little hint.

OHIO!

[spooked]

21. This is GOOD!! Read the TRANSLATION

“I feel so passionate about these issues that I am going to use all the energy God gives me to pursue them,”

TRANSLATION: Moral Values Mandate, My *ss. God is on MY SIDE!!

“It is a disgrace that we have partisanly run elections in states where people don’t have faith in the outcome. We need to make sure all votes are properly recorded.”

TRANSLATION: Blackwell needs to go and we need a recount!!

Kerry said he senses “an energy” and “the same passion” across the country to continue those fights.

TRANSLATION: I HEAR YOU OHIO!!

“We brought together millions of people on the Internet and we’re going to continue to grow this.”

TRANSLATION: THANK YOU DU!! SPREAD THE WORD!! (Ok, taking a few liberties with this one)

"$200,000 has been sent to support another recount in the Washington governor’s race...Kerry also wired $50,000 to Louisiana..."

TRANSLATION: I'm aware of the fraud and the need for recounts!

"Kerry announced he will go to Iraq in January and he promised to “continue to fight for a foreign policy that lives up to the values of this country."

TRANSLATION: There is NO WAY that 59 MILLION people voted to continue this immoral, unjust war in Iraq.

“Life is an on-going struggle and you were with me and we are going to take that fight on to the country. . ."

TRANSLATION: I'm Ready to go public. Are you with me?!

[LisaL]

22. LOL. Isn't it great that our candidate is talking in code that

only select few can understand?
:eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[Peace Patriot]

24. I'm not quite ready...

...to write off Kerry's statements (and their translation) so easily, but I do agree that trying to judge Kerry's state of mind these days is a bit like reading entrails. Signs? Omens? Portents?

Focus, people!

1. It is a waste of time and energy to criticize Kerry or anything or anyone involved in this presidential campaign until we know who won it.

2. We don't know who won it--but all the evidence so far points to a Kerry win, possibly by a landslide.

3. If you're not conversant with the evidence, please get informed.

4. It is also a waste of time, in my opinion, to talk about any other issue except,

a) REPUBLICAN PARTISANS CONTROLLING THE SECRET SOURCE CODE BY WHICH ALL OUR VOTES WERE COUNTED;

b) NO PAPER TRAIL IN ONE THIRD OF THE COUNTRY;

c) MASSIVE VOTE SUPPRESSION OF DEMOCRATIC AND MINORITY VOTERS, BY REPUBLICAN ELECTION OFFICIALS, IN AT LEAST TWO STATES, OHIO AND FLORIDA; and

d) How they used the above to STEAL THIS ELECTION.

Fascists now control the presidency, the Congress, the courts, the news media AND the voting system. Get it?

We are never again going to have a progressive president or country if we don't restore our right to vote NOW. Step #1 is challenging this election.

If all recounts, investigations, lawsuits and other efforts fail to overturn this election, then, come early January, when Congress is scheduled to certify the vote, the following is likely to happen:

Black House members will AGAIN approach the Senate, as they did in 2000, to stop the certification of the Ohio (and possibly also the Florida) vote because of massive, illegal suppression of black voters, and needing only ONE Senate signature to do so. In 2000, NOT ONE Senator, Democrat or Republican, would sign their petition (that famous scene in "F9/11").

Are the Democrats going to repeat that miserable performance--or are they going to stand up and fight for our right to vote, and for the hard won rights of black citizens who have loyally supported them with 70-90% votes in every election, and who stood in 10-hour long lines in the freezing rain to vote for them again in 2004?

THAT is the question. And I hope that John Kerry is not in Iraq when that happens.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

39. Beautiful, just beautiful

A wonderful summation.

The electors are scheduled to meet on the first Monday after the second Wednesday in December, as mandated by law, and that's December 13.

Should, however, an Ohio court be presented with compelling evidence that fraud occurred (this could also happen in any of several other states), that court could issue a temporary restraining order, keeping Ohio's electors from casting their votes at the December 13 meeting.

If that happens, the whole electoral college matter is put on hold, because they cannot go forward without a complete set of electors.

That means the election cannot be announced by the president of the Senate to Congress on January 6, 2005, as dictated by law.

That means the election's far from over, and, legally, there is no winner yet.

As for why not Senator came forward to sign that petition, well, I'm a Michael Moore fan, but he fucked that up. The reason no one came forward was because Good Old Gore asked everyone not to. He gave it up.

This time, the Kerry people are smartly avoiding all the mistakes the Gore people made, and, believe me, time is on our side.

So, keep the faith. I'm still betting that Kerry's our next President. If I'm wrong, we'll be right back here, where we are today.

[zann725]

44. Thank you Leftie Lawyer! I respect your insight and your 'posts'.

I thought I heard the Green atty mention the possibility of a TRO the other day. Sounded good to me. But hearing you mention it again, in the extended context/explanation you gave...puts my heart at ease.

I still trust and believe in Kerry too.

[bunny planet]

51. I love you OldLeftieLawyer

:loveya:

[LittleClarkie]

77. Even if we don't get a President Kerry out of all of this

I'm still believing in the man. I'm glad to see him poking his nose into Ohio, Washington and Louisiana. The video from November 19th and the speech from NH tell me he's not done fighting, no matter what the outcome of the election.

Even if you lose your bet (and I want you to win it with all my heart), I will still have his back. We don't know how much they can dig up out of this mess and how fast. Investigations take time. If we can't flip the election, we can reveal its illegitimacy to the fullest extent possible.

Even if it turns out he's fighting to make sure every vote is counted KNOWING that he still won't be able to flip the election, I will still support him.

And if I hear one more person say "He must not have wanted it" I'm going to plotz. Crazy as it sounds, he wanted the bloody mess. He knew he could have made it better. He will not forget that the opportunity to offer hope was stolen from him.

And neither will I. The blood will be on Bush's hands, not Kerry's.

[JNelson6563]

89. Gore mistakes, Kerry mistakes

Yes, thank bob Kerry isn't repeating Gore's mistake of demanding recounts. Don't wanna upset anybody or anything. Ugh.

Julie

[Zhade]

66. Excellent post.

If the Dems fail to stand up again, forget it, I'll be done with voting (because my vote probably won't count anyway).

And fuck all the "it would just go to the House and we'd still lose" apologist bullshit. The point is: MAKE A GODDAMN STAND! Show us you give a fuck!

[SammyWinstonJack]

31. Right?

:eyes:

[proudbluestater]

25. Spooked! Love your assessment! I'll go with it!

I love your translation and I will ignore the naysayers and just get on board with you, hopes and dreams and all. In my heart I want to believe he has not given up, that he wants the PEOPLE to go forward in their efforts. It is, after all, up to the PEOPLE to do the work. It's our votes that aren't counted and have been stolen. It's up to us to get the system BACK.

[lonestarnot]

28. I like your translation

This week should be interesting... Waiting on Cliff the lawyer! Hurry up and file Cliffie!

[zann725]

49. Then maybe a TRO (or TRO's) would better be filed in a 'Blue' state...

or stateS...where the Court is less 'stacked' toward the Right...as in Ohio.:eyes:

[lonestarnot]

56. Don't you think if fraud is established and votes put in wrong tally, when

should have been in tally over there that people even from winning side going to take a second look regardless of integrity of bench?

[spooked]

32. Thank you proudbluestater! Kerry is the fighter he has always been

and always will be. Don't give up hope everyone!

[DS1]

33. It'd be nice if he just said it like you translated

of course, nobody in politics has the guts to do it now that Bush has mastered it.

[Tinoire]

40. Can't wait to read the translation

the DLC has for the neo-liberals :eyes:

Horse-shit to your wishful projection.

If the best Kerry can do is speak in code then let him speak it to his B&B buddies. Most of the rest of us need something a little more "clear" before we blindly fork over our support.

Of course we saw this already during the elections when his "code-speak" didn't do our party much good.

Code speak indeed.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

42. Nice, narrow thinking

It'll just keep you angry and impotent for no good reason.

Just what the rightwingnuts want - us turning on our candidate for no obvious reason.

The election's not over. I know I keep saying this, but it's vital that people understand the process.

And, parenthetically, I'm appalled at the lack of understanding people have about the election of a President.

[Tinoire]

45. Right.

I'm angry and impotent, lol. Not a whiff of anger in my body- just pure weariness at the ignorance, willing lack of awareness & selfishness I see among many of my compatriots.

What's vital is NOT that people understand the process. Condescending to people and telling them to be patient, understand the "process" and work with it is shit. What is CRUCIAL is understanding the mechanics. Screw the effing process set in place by a dominant class that's protected its interests by sending its representative candidates into both camps.

OUR candidate? Listen closely. Kerry was never "my" candidate nor that of millions of progressives but the neo-liberal, Republican-lite DLC thought that it could shut us up and 'dazzle' us into oblivion with empty slogans like "ABB Baby". Sure sucks they miscalculated the depth of people's disgust with PNAC signing luminaries like Kerry's advisor Will Marshall.

I am appalled, absolutely "appalled by the lack of understanding people have about the" MORAL CHOICES involved in the "election of a President".

You think there's no apparent reason for turning our backs on Mister "I voted for the war but not the way Bush did it"? Jeez, where have you been? You think a candidate who keeps trying to out-war Bush when it comes to Syria and Iran appeals to many of us?

Think again. Think long and hard and then, maybe just maybe, you'll understand why my back has always been turned on neo-liberals like Kerry. The vote I cast for him in 2004 is the ONLY vote of my life that I regret.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

55. Oy vey

In your first line, you lament the "lack of awareness."

In your next line, you say "What's vital is NOT that people understand the process."

After that, I quit reading, because you clearly are terribly confused.

Anger and feelings of impotency do that to people.

Go read up on how it works, and calm down. Knowledge, dear heart, really is power.

[Tinoire]

58. LMAO!

I am not going to waste much time with you or anyone else for whom Kerry was "our" candidate on whom we shouldn't turn our back :)

I sincerely lament your lack of awareness and hope your stamina for reading thoughts different from yours increases.

Narrow, narrow. Tsk, tsk you old Leftie lawyer you.

Good luck to you and your candidate but I think he's already blown the one thing he had going for his neo-liberal ass, the "electability" theme.

Good thing I never believed in the guy otherwise I might be in group therapy like those Kerry believers in Florida whining about how the other side, gasp, "stole" the election again instead of facing the fact that too many of us are refusing to march towards the NEO World Order.

It's funny being lectured about knowledge by someone who can't be bothered to read :) but what the hell, it's nothing new. Oy Vey!!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

62. "..... it's nothing new"?

So you're used to being ignored. I understand that.

Good thing you're not angry.

[Tinoire]

74. Tsk Tsk

Where o where is the love in this ever-growing tent?

[LittleClarkie]

85. And in the end...

the love you take is equal to the love you make.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, what an effective speaker you must have been when campaigning for Kerry. Or were you campaigning against Bush. Because, you know, campaigning against someone is always terribly effective. Ask Dole.

I was ABB too toward the beginning of summer. It took me eons to follow Clark's call to hitch my wagon to Kerry's star. Finally did somewhere around June. Ended up loving the son of a bitch.

One thing I do know is that when Kerry talked about what we should be doing re: terrorism, I listened. He'd been beating that drum at least since 1997. He knew more about it than the current administration did, I guarantee you that.

"Though this country will continue to face danger from religious extremeists, homegrown anarchists, and perennial lone-bomber types, they are all in some sense “old news.” The terrorists of tomorrow will be better armed and organized. It will take only one mega-terrorist event in any of the great cities of the world to change the world in a single day. As we shall see, that event could be nuclear or could just as easily occur on the Internet, but whether our sense of secure well-being ends with a bang or a whimper will not be the cause of debate. "

--John Kerry, "A New War," 1997

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, watching this little coalition break up is like spectating a bad marriage come apart.

So what is the political equivalent of a marriage counsellor, anyway?

[Tinoire]

91. No I didn't campaign for Kerry but against Bush

That was the idea wasn't it? All we had to do was prop up a ham sandwich and people would come running to?

I'm glad your experience with Kerry was more pleasant. I denounced him from the start because I refuse to willingly support any neo-Liberals. See you're buying that terrorism crap. I'm not. The only terrorism I'm seeing is the terror being perpetrated by the US against other peoples and Kerry has been complicit in it. How on earth do you end up loving someone who's campaign advisor was a PNAC signatory and who's running an institution that parallels PNAC?

You sound like a good person but we're going to have to agree to disagree. If you want to really fight terror, work on the US first. Work on those NGOs that people like Kerry and Clark support. Without them, there would be no "terror" aka resistance to our imperialistic takeovers.

[LittleClarkie]

93. "All we had to do was prop up a ham sandwich"

I didn't think that was the idea myself. I actively preached against being just ABB without being able to tell a potential voter why they should pick Kerry instead. Several people I know went with "the devil they knew."

Marketing my friend, marketing. Nobody's going to buy your product if you don't act like you believe in it yourself.

We can agree to disagree I suppose. I will go and research William Marshall though, since you bring him up.

Meanwhile, I've had "I'm in love, I'm in love with ATTILLA the Hun..." running through my head since I read your post.

[bunny planet]

52. umm...Not a whiff of anger in your body?

What do you sound like when there is a whiff of anger in your body?
You seem to have enough judgemental anger for 10 people.

[Tinoire]

60. Nope, no anger

I'm not one of those neo-liberals angry that the neo-conservatives stole the football :) I saw this coming long ago and was resigned to the fact that the Bushistas were soundly going to trounce our ass since we were refusing to stand for anything.

Are you angry much these days?

[bunny planet]

61. Yes I am, just not with Senator Kerry........yet.

[Q]

82. You're not alone...

...and don't let the Kerry apologists get in your way. They're going to wake up one morning and realize that half the party is gone.

We were told to 'shut up' and back Kerry and that's what we did for the 'good of the party'. But the party's over and we're going progressive.

We reject the mush-mouth politics of the 'new' Democrats. Kerry had his ABB shot and he couldn't pull it off. No more votes for anyone that can't EARN them.

[Tinoire]

83. But but

I was assured "a ham sandwich could have beaten Bush" and that we all had to rally around the ham sandwich. Well I did and they were wrong- it will take more than a bland ham sandwich to beat the neo-cons- it will take someone who offers something DRASTICALLY different, as in PROGRESSIVE and whose message and record are CLEAR and documented with no wavering, no flip flops, no nuances that need entire encyclopedias to explain the code speak.

Have no fears my friend. I'm not shutting up. I'm back to help you TAKE OUR PARTY BACK as promised in my signature line ;)

If we allow neoliberals to continue hijacking our party, the defeat in the next elections will be even more scathing because too many people who caved in to the bogeyman scare have vowed to never cave in again until the party represents something more people will want to vote for. Something simple like, you know, no wars to steal resources.

Gone progressive aka



:hi:

[Zhade]

67. TINOIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're back! We've missed you!

I agree, fuck the DLC. I'm waiting until 12/13 to decide if I need to say "fuck Kerry", too. I'll be very happy not to have to say it, if he pulls something off.

We'll see in 8 days, eh?

Welcome back to DU, my friend. Missed your posts.

:hug:

[Tinoire]

73. Hi Zhade!

Good to see you. Can't wait to send in my contribution so I can catch up with your gems of wisdom :) Thanks for the welcome back!!


:hug:

[Zhade]

75. Wisdom? *snort*

Nah, just jackassery and sticking it to the DLCers. Nothing revelatory, really. :)

[KoKo]

84. Welcome Back Tinoire! You've been missed around here!

:hi: your insight and search skills have been sorely needed! Glad to see ya!

[Tinoire]

87. Hi Koko!

:hug:

Don't know if I have the stamina for going into that much depth again but I do hope to contribute to the fine efforts of people like yourself who keep conversations honest ;)

:hi:

[TheDonkey]

38. Good for Kerry!! Keep on staying the spotlight, don't surrender

like many would like to see him do.

[vickie]

46. I'm thrilled to hear this from Kerry. He is a national leader in our

party - he should and speak out! I'm certainly willing to listen to what he has to say!!!

[vickie]

47. I'm thrilled to hear this from Kerry. He is a national leader in our

party - he should and speak out! I'm certainly willing to listen to what he has to say!!!

[Neshanic]

50. Sounds like a candidate.....smells like a sure defeat.

Time for someone else to pin our hopes on in 2008.

Translation: Time to pin our hopes on someone else in 2008.

[TheDonkey]

53. Regardless of who is the nom in '08 we shouldn't shrink back

from rethugs. We should all be out there speaking out and pushing the Democratic agenda.

[loyalsister]

57. Who is "we"?

"We" have to hope that they don't stick with this formula if Kerry is the candidate.
One of the biggest problems I ran across was the whole "middle class" swing voter platform. In the meantime, Bush was speaking the version of English of the people who are "working poor."
I spoke with several who voted for him. Kerry did not relate to them. Those were votes he should have and could have gotten if he had addressed the voters economic issues at the very least.

[Bono71]

80. Agree. Kerry lost to a very beatable guy...though I think next

time around, Democrats will be in better position to win, no matter who the nominee is, because:

1) Hopefully we learned not to outsource the get out the vote to outfits like moveon. We need to build from the community level up (like the rpubs did through th community curch). Amazingly, we got beat in a heavy turnout election...congrats to the repubs on that, but we will get better.

2) The repub candidate will not be an incumbant and will have to fight a primary along with us. This will make a huge differnce.

3) The country will be sick of Iraq by then. Note: I am not wishing harm to our troops...but anyone who thinks the situation over there is going to get better in the next 4 years is smoking some really good kind bud.

Whatever happens, it will be interesting.

[bunny planet]

90. You mean, they'll be sick of IRAN by that time, we'll be going there next.

The handwriting is on the wall. They are already sick of Iraq, next.

[Cookie wookie]

92. 1) The Dems had the turnout

the Repubs counted the votes. The Republicans cheated in every way possible, from using privitized, republican owned computerized voting systems to using physical barriers like not enough voting machines in Dem heavy districts.MoveOn did a phenomenal job. Criticism of them is not only self-defeating for Democrats, it is destructive of a new process that works to get vital information out to the public when the media is locked down totally by the right wing.

2) With bush in office, there may not be another election, just as there really wasn't one this time around. We went through the motions, but they stole it. Whether we can prove that and turn things around is the question.

3) "Whatever happens, it will be interesting"??? Sounds like George Bush on the evening after the 9/11 attacks: "It's been an interesting day." The destruction of democracy in America, suffering, death and destruction aren't human experiences that should be described as "interesting", even if one is trying to put a "nice" spin on things, for whatever reason.

[Dr Fate]

81. Kerry should bring back the tradition of the loser being a Standard Bearer

Keep on fighting Big John-We need ya.

[Goldeneye]

88. Awesome, just Awesome

Kerry, your the best.

[graywarrior]

94. People who bitch about Kerry never really supported him to begin with

You either make a choice, vote for the establishment as you KNOW Kerry is, or you vote for the alternative. Quitcherbitchin' just coz Kerry isn't doing things your way.

In addition, research the election process. No one understands how this vote recount works, including me. I will not make statements based in emotion regarding what Kerry should be doing because I DON'T FUCKING KNOW and neither do half the people who post on DU.

Everybod's a freaking expert. Chill out. In '08, I guarantee if Kerry runs, people trashing him now will vote for him.

[orpupilofnature57]

95. thats why my KERRY/EDWARDS stickers stay on, for the51%,??