Boston Globe: You'll Need Your Retina Scanned to Re-enter Fallujah

[spooked]

http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2004/12/05/returning_fallujans_will_face_clampdown/

Returning Fallujans will face clampdown
By Anne Barnard, Globe Staff | December 5, 2004

FALLUJAH, Iraq -- The US military is drawing up plans to keep insurgents from regaining control of this battle-scarred city, but returning residents may find that the measures make Fallujah look more like a police state than the democracy they have been promised.

Under the plans, troops would funnel Fallujans to so-called citizen processing centers on the outskirts of the city to compile a database of their identities through DNA testing and retina scans. Residents would receive badges displaying their home addresses that they must wear at all times. Buses would ferry them into the city, where cars, the deadliest tool of suicide bombers, would be banned.

Marine commanders working in unheated, war-damaged downtown buildings are hammering out the details of their paradoxical task: Bring back the 300,000 residents in time for January elections without letting in insurgents, even though many Fallujans were among the fighters who ruled the city until the US assault drove them out in November, and many others cooperated with fighters out of conviction or fear.

One idea that has stirred debate among Marine officers would require all men to work, for pay, in military-style battalions. Depending on their skills, they would be assigned jobs in construction, waterworks, or rubble-clearing platoons.

PROCESSING CENTERS? BADGES THAT MUST BE WORN AT ALL TIMES? DNA TESTING?? RETINA SCANS? FORCED LABOR??

Anybody else thinking Warsaw Ghetto of the 21st Century??


Warsaw Ghetto


Fallujah

[leftchick]

1. wow! Who knew how technological one could make ...

a game of whack-a-mole?

[Just Me]

47. "FREEDOM"? "DEMOCRACY"? "LIBERATION"? MY ASS!!!

Someone,...tell me this is NOT true.

Someone.

ANYONE!!!

On editI want ALL LEADERS subjected to psychological and DNA tests!!! I want ALL LEADERS to be subject to the PEOPLES' decision AFTER those leaders have had their psychological and DNA tests PUBLISHED!!!

[The Zanti Regent]

63. How do you write 666 on a person's retina?

I guess you do a lot of counting, don't you?

[roughandtumble]

2. There is a big difference here.

The Nazi provided enough troops to get the job done. We are doing it half assed to give the insurgents a fair chance to kill us.

[spooked]

4. Right--US Soldiers better be watching their backs in Fallujah

[clem_c_rock]

46. INSURGENTS = NATIONALIST FIGHTING OCCUPIERS - WTFU!

These so called "hard and violent" insurgents are, if you use a bit of common sense, nationalist fighting for their country. Are you really so gullible into thinking that these people are all warmongering psychopaths?

I mean come on, maybe look into the 1st Iraq occupation by the British in 1917.

-Maybe when the British march into Iraq w/ over 600,000 troops to steal their oil and prop up father/son puppet regime (king Faisel and son)-their people remember

-Maybe when then the CIA helps prop a psychopath like Saddam in power and the US backs his every move for 30 years while he kills millios - their people remember.

-Maybe when then the UN post sanctions, rabidly enforced by the US and British, which kill over a million people - their people remember.

Just because our people are clueless and don't remember: doesn't mean the Iraqi's and the Islamic people don't remember.

Get away from your TV set and use your heads....

[LibertyorDeath]

85. Welcome to DU clem_c_rock good post

Think I like the cut of your jib.

Have you read this http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture/20669

The US Corporate media consistently characterizes the Iraqi resistance as "foreign terrorists and former Ba'athist insurgents". In your experience, is this an accurate portrayal? If not, why?

This is propaganda of the worst kind. Most Iraqis refer to the Iraqi Resistance as "patriots." Which of course most of them are-they are, especially in Fallujah, primarily composed of people who simply are resisting the occupation of their country by a foreign power. They are people who have had family members killed, detained, tortured and humiliated by the illegal occupiers of their shattered country.

Calling them "foreign terrorists" and "Ba'athist insurgents" is simply a lie. While there are small elements of these, they are distinctly different from the Iraqi Resistance, who are now supported by, very conservatively at least 80% of the population here.

There are terrorist elements here, but that is because the borders of Iraq have been left wide open since the invasion. These did not exist in Iraq before.

[Ima]

87. Welcome clem_c_rock

:hi: Good post!

[_NorCal_D_]

103. Agreed

Welcome to DU! :toast:

[Just Me]

50. You really do NOT get the advances of humanity since the Nazis,...

,...and you fail to conceive of all that which is being destroyed by those who are every bit as EVIL as "Nazis",...because they no longer discriminate against a "people", except at their pleasure,...

,...they destroy for power, period,...

Whatever part you don't get about that,...well, is your issue.

I remind you that a "Nazi" can be someone willing to destroy not merely a race or religion,...but also a "class" of people.

I also remind you that,...we are all a member of the human race,...but always discriminated as a "class" of people.

[rndmprsn]

3. disgusting...

can someone tell me...where the hell is the outrage about this?

bullshit

[Endangered Specie]

5. Thats assuming you havent had your eyes already shot/blown out

:grr:

What shall they do then?

[President Kerry]

20. i think Gott mit uns is the same idea.. n/t

[bemildred]

6. Oh yeah, that'll work.

Blind faith in the technological fix continues.

How many troops to make sure the clever Eyerakies don't circumvent the system?
Who is going to protect those troops?
Does this not just create a bunch more convenient targets for the Eyerakies?
:puke:

[maddezmom]

7. this is revolting...yellow stars to retina scans

wonder how long until the facility is "hit by insurgents".

[NuttyFluffers]

48. that's what i was thinking too.

how long until insurgents figure out 'retinal scan data banks + car bomb = americans' wasted more time, money, and lives'

oh well, can't explain to the insane the folly of this idea... in a land of unrecognized authority such devices mean nothing. in fact less than nothing -- an insulting, laughable heap of nothing.

[LisaL]

8. My goodness-not even Nazis had this technology at the time.

They had to do with pathetic yellow stars to identify Jews.

[SoCalDem]

22. duped

oops

[SoCalDem]

23. Gee..why not just tattoo numbers on their foreheads?

:grr:

[HeeBGBz]

36. Gee, like 666. That would be easy to remember

Creeps me out.

[Flying Coyote]

66. No, but...

The holocaust could never have been carried out so efficiently without the help of IBM, who sold computing equipment to the nazis even after it was obvious how they would use it.
http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/

[RaleighNCDUer]

80. Well, give them some credit. They also measured the length of

the nose and earlobes, and with width of the nostrils to figure out who was really part of the master race.

You use the tools you got.

Then you kill them.

[Barrett808]

9. Fallujah a "model city" -- Bush's plan for America n/t

[InvisibleBallots]

10. that's just what I thought

coming soon to Detroit, San Francisco and New York

[LisaL]

11. I am sure Bush voters will volunteer.

[Warren Stupidity]

19. me too -

this is the theo-clown* future. After the crash, when we finally get up off of our butts and take to the streets, they will have a fallujah program all ready for us.

*Theo-clown - that odd mixture of rightwing fundamentalist theocrats and rightwing neocon globalists that now controls the government in washington.

[Barkley]

109. You're always on it Barrett808!

Yep, there's a plan somewhere to use that technology here on Americans.

I think we (DUers) all know it but some are afraid to say it or let it come into their consciousness.

You're right Barrett808!

I also enjoy your news posts.

[MADem]

12. What's next?

Chips, like you put in a puppy's shoulder, so if little Spot ever goes missing the vet can scan him and return him safely home?

What's amazing is that if they tried to do this to US we'd all be up in arms. But it's OK if we do it to them.

Guess civil liberties only matter for some folks. What is this country coming to????

It's only a matter of time before we are next....

[Lorien]

14. Would we be up in arms?

we weren't over a stolen election. Now they know that they can get away with anything.

[Nordic]

18. they're already doing that here

check out:

http://www.spychips.com

RFID chips are going into everything now. Everything you buy, your clothes, your food, your paper money.

It's going gangbusters and nobody in this country has any idea.

[wordout]

21. RFID. thats the first thing I thought of

when they mentioned "badges".

[signmike]

49. Black market badges? Hmmm, big bucks...

the Repubs would approve

[Massacure]

13. The insurgents aren't stupid. Iraq is the best educatined Arab country.

I'm sure they have plenty of people who can hack.

[goodhue]

15. What is the international equivalent of the ACLU?

Some organization needs to pipe up about this blantant violations of civil liberties. But I guess the residents of Iraq have none.

[Chicago Democrat]

16. Warsaw Ghetto/ Falluja ----spot on comparison

[lebkuchen]

17. Isn't a retina scan SOP for entering the US now?

That and strip searches?

[0007]

52. Deep cavity searches are next

[psychopomp]

121. No, it is fingerprinting

I have seen the device, though never used it myself. It is of the right index finger only, I believe.

Japan had a system whereby foreigners who stay longer than x # of months had to get printed up until about five years ago. At the time, the fingerprint was imprinted on an I.D. card that you need to carry with you at all times. 2nd and 3rd generation Koreans who had refused citizenship for cultural/nationalistic reasons managed to get the govt to stop mandatory fingerprinting.

[Hard Attack]

24. I just Emailed Move On...

Gang = Everyone - Tomorrow pick up the phones and start calling every media outlet in your local area.

Also, go to MoveOn.org and send them an email, they need to do a Mass Emailing on this one.

This is pure bullshit in my opinion.

[Hard Attack]

25. **THIS IS DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND FRONT PAGE MATERIAL

*THIS IS DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND FRONT PAGE MATERIAL IN MY OPINION.

[ninkasi]

26. I am speechless

How on earth can anybody think that the ever increasing stranglehold the idiot Simian is subjecting Iraqis to will have any effect but to increase their hatred of us. This is wrong on so many levels; how dare they slaughter another country, destroy it, and claim to be bringing democracy to the region?

We have a bigger fight on our hands now than before the election was stolen. We have to increase our scrutiny on every thing they do, or try to do. We have got to demand, through letters, calls, faxes, every way possible, to insist that our so-called media stop printing predigested pablum from Rove, and start bringing us the truth.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

27. Demand all you will, it's MONEY and only MONEY that will change the course

What the media will and will not do is based on profits and gains. The only way to be effective in persuading the media outlets to not side with "the side" that's giving them the most money is to BOYCOTT and avoid completly any company blatantly twisting the truth.
They must be made a PUBLIC Spectacle and the rest will follow.

[NuttyFluffers]

51. exactly, twist their wallets 'til they collapse on their knees.

and this time, there is no mercy. we are popping corporate profits until they are brought to heel. no more war crimes in the name of $$$. it's as simple as that.

(the parallels of this to revolutionary war is unsettling. why do i get the feeling that i'm living as the old english empire surrounded by tories? *shudder*)

[SoCalDem]

28. Blatant racism... The US govt is admitting that they cannot

distinguish one Iraqi from another.. To the US military, all "men from 14-50" ..."over there" are insurgents....

eye scans will identify their individuality, but there is no "soul scan"..so no oone willl be able to tell whether they are "with us or agin' us "...

This is just one more way to assault their masculinity.

These are men without jobs
with damaged homes
who have to watch their women be searched (manhandled in THEIR eyes)
They must watch this and are expected to JOIN the very people who they see as defiling their homes..

Eye scans will not help

[noshenanigans]

29. "citizen processing centers"? *shiver*

Mmm, ain't "democracy" grand?

I wonder what companies will handle the mass, um, "processing"? Someone's gonna make bank.

[Eloriel]

30. Well that should quell the Hitler / Bush comparisons, no? n/t

[frank frankly]

33. President Hitler is really rolling now.

They are using the Nazi plan.

[ilovenicepeople]

53. Where is our "Line in the Sand"????

There is a proverbial line, I just don't know where it is,it keeps moving.

[Tinoire]

43. Baaaaaad Eloriel! Baaad

:spank:

Bad, bad girl ;)

[NNN0LHI]

31. Wouldn't numerical tattoos be cheaper? n/t

[frank frankly]

34. Goebells V 2.0 really likes all the gadgetry.

They continue to get worse.

[Noaell]

32. Iraqi Voter Registration ends soon?

It's interesting to note that registration for their election closes in approx. a week. (news article source for that not handy at moment) So, I wonder how all the Iraqi people turned out of their homes and/or cities are going to get back in time, and if that will be the priority for them over reclaiming their demolished houses or trying to find a hospital.

[slaveplanet]

35. This article leaves out the details

makes no mention that civilians will be shot on site if they stray from their assigned sector.

Looks the the model slave city is shaping up nicely ... they have big plans and this will prove to be a valuable training excersize for the legions of brainwash troops who will return and filter into key positions in the Police/security forces here.

[wordout]

57. patrol the sector with mini robots

and blast em with the new heat ray..

[Darranar]

37. Another shining example of liberation, Bush-style. n/t

[Tinoire]

38. Disgusting. / US orders Iraqi Red Crescent out of Fallujah

US orders Iraqi Red Crescent out of Fallujah

AFP: 12/5/2004
BAGHDAD, Dec 5 (AFP) - The Iraqi Red Crescent said Sunday that it had left Fallujah on US military orders after the aid agency was told the former insurgent stronghold was not safe.

(snip)

The IRC distibuted food, water and blankets to around 1,500 people in the city, whose population was around 300,000 before a massive assault by US-led forces began on November 8.

(snip)

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?ID=34640

[Darranar]

39. They used the same excuse to keep them out during the criminal assault...

Why can't the Iraqi Red Crescent decide for itself whether or not it is safe enough inside Fallujah? Or is the problem that they're reducing the brutal punishment the innocent people of Fallujah have suffered for happening to live there?

[Tinoire]

42. I think your second assumption

as sickening as it is.

The US government and the military are in a fury against Fallujah. It's downright embarrassing that it hasn't been "liberated" yet.

2004 population: 257,500 compared to Baghdad's 21,722,287.

It's got 0 high-rise buildings & you can WALK across it in 30 minutes.

Its size is about 2 x 2.2 miles yet over 10,000 U.S. troops, not to mention the British, can't subdue the few "insurgents" in a city that covers 5 square miles, not even after killing over 26% of its population.



Note for the population of Fallujah which is nowhere near that ridiculous figure of 500,000 our propaganda organs put out to minimize the casualty figures: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/city.htm
http://www.world-gazetteer.com/c/c_iq.htm#pl_20

[flordehinojos]

40. it seems that fallujah may be a preview of what is in store for mainland

USA under the BOOOOOOOOOSH-GOOOOOOOOOON administration

[tjdee]

41. Why the FUCK are we paying for retina scans now?

A friend of mine told me about this the other day, and while I share the concerns of all of you (the car ban, badges, and DNA testing are particularly :puke: ), I am so sick of the money we are pouring into the place after we stupidly destroyed it.

Now we want to use retina scan technology? When those poor people don't even have the basics? I mean, have we even restored their electricity?
:grr:

on edit: I don't know why I said "we", I reject all of it.

[arikara]

44. Absolutely outragious

Bellon asserted that previous attempts to win trust from Iraqis suspicious of US intentions had telegraphed weakness by asking, " 'What are your needs? What are your emotional needs?' All this Oprah stuff," he said.

Oprah stuff??? Butchering people is now Oprah stuff? How did they attempt to win trust from the Iraqis? By invading their country, killing tens of thousands of innocent civilians, bombing hospitals, ambulances, journalists, torturing, poisoning their land with DU, stealing and selling off their resources to foreign corporations, and pillaging their antiquities. Now that the Oprah moment is over with, they are setting up their cities as gulags and no doubt the concentration camps will be next. But whatever happens, it can be blamed on the puppet government...

"It's the Iraqi interim government that's coming up with all these ideas," Major General Richard Natonski, who commanded the Fallujah assault and oversees its reconstruction, said of the plans for identity badges and work brigades.

The whole world needs to be outraged over this. The Nazis were defeated and the Neo-cons will be too.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

45. How about the folks that no longer have retinas?

Are they banned from entering?

[Minstrel Boy]

54. "authorized to use deadly force against those breaking the rules"

From an NBC News report this week, from Brokaw's last broadcast (audio on site below) -

Reporter: "So far the plan is for most of the city's 250,000 residents to return in stages and first only a few thousand will be let in.

They'll be fingerprinted, given a retina scan and then an ID card, which will only allow them to travel around their homes or to nearby aid centers which are now being built.

The Marines will be authorized to use deadly force against those breaking the rules....Tom?"

Brokaw: "Richard, what's the latest on the election?.... "


Alex Jones:

In 1999 I traveled to Oakland California to cover the Marine Corps execution of Operation Urban Warrior. Thousands of Marines opnely trained to biometrically scan American citizens, seperate the men, women and children in a concentration camp environment, and conduct interrogations. Video in my film, Police State 2000 shows Marine Corps officers questioning role-players who were posing as American resistance fighters. Loudspeakers informed the population of the mock camp filled with hundreds of role-players, that if they tried to escape or resist they would be killed.

Now the public consciousness is so seared that an NBC reporter can just nonchalantly talk about an instant death penalty for anyone that doesn't have their biometric card in order or that strays off pre-determined paths on their way to authorized destinations. The Nazis did the same thing in the Polish ghettos. This is total seige, it is the highest expression of pure martial law. ID cards are now being issued across Iraq, the entire country and its 23 million inhabitants are simply being straight-jacketed so the Globalists can continue the oldest form of total war - seige - upon them.

From thousands of credible reports, from reporters on the ground, we know that Iraq is now descending into a black hole. And I want all of the soft, decadent, bloated, demon-possessed, Neo-Con followers to enjoy themselves. Sit in your easy chairs, cheer the slaughter of over a hundred thousand innocent people. Feel like you're part of this global iron fist. Look at it from your coddled position and know - you don't have to fear the CIA controlled Al-CIAda, you had better fear your Globalist masters because they don't give a damn about you. I've got the government documents, I've got the video. The government's been training to do this to you for a long time. So cheer like it's a football game. Cheer the death of all those innocent children. And know that through your weakness and your lack of historical understanding, you have allowed America to lose its soul. Now prepare to reap what you sow. And as your Globalist owners are raping the hell out of you financially, spiritually, mentally, I know you're so weak-minded you'll thank them for it and blame some imaginary turban-headed bogeyman.
http://prisonplanet.com/articles/december2004/021204facechoice.htm

[kineneb]

55. totally insane

Sounds like the plot of a bad sci-fi movie, only it is "reality." They think by having biometric data they can keep track of people anywhere, especially in the Middle East? What happens when the data center is car bombed? Sounds like another case of corp. welfare for someone. And shade of pre-WWII Germany, "Do you have your papers?"
How long before someone figures how to forge the id cards?

"Hell no, I won't stick my eyeball near that thing."

[PsychoDad]

56. The system should be ready...

For Amerika 2006

[Bouncy Ball]

58. I am one big goose bump after reading that.

Seriously, I got chills. Oh my. Are they testing it in Iraq first?

Usually I don't pay much attention to comparisons to Nazi Germany and Nazi-occupied territories during WWII, since what went on then was SO over the top compared to MOST things now, but yeah, that description is getting WAY closer to what the ghettos were like.

Whew. I am guessing they also wouldn't be able to leave Fallujah?

In that case, yeah, it's a ghetto, a la Nazi-style. They would probably also be killed at the slightest provocation.

What have we wrought?

[daleo]

59. It gets more unbelievable every day

This stuff all seemed over the top in fiction. But neo-con truth is far stranger and more frightening than fiction. Don't the right wing fundamentalists wonder about this, given all the supposed revelations about biometrics?

On edit - I mean chip implant conspiracy theories, and such like that.

[Flying Coyote]

91. Yep, they do

>> right wing fundamentalists

Plenty of conservatives are outraged over this stuff, but they tend to view it as a plot by the liberals.

BTW, chip implants have left the realm of sci-fi and tin foil hats:
http://4verichip.com/nws_10132004FDA.htm

[burrowowl]

60. Al-jazz

doesn't have this news up yet.
Reactions should be interesting.
Warsaw Ghetto raised a power!
Unbelievable!

[spooked]

62. Warsaw Ghetto Uprising comes to mind for me too

http://www.usmlo.org/archive2003/2003-05/photos/mayday/030501.iraq,%20fallujah.03.jpg
Fallujah


Fallujah

[Barkley]

107. Great Photo!

[rainbow4321]

61. So we can get a retina scanner in the desert...

but we can't get the fucking e-votes machines to spit out receipts over here??

[Megahurtz]

117. Yeah, I like that one!

[Viktor Runeberg]

64. Slight difference

I don't mean to flame here, and I usually consider myself a liberal and proud of it, but the Warsaw comparision has a big weakness:

The Jews were innocent.

Fallujah on the other hand is a long-time Baathist stronghold, and the Baathists are the guys who were Saddam's equivalent of the SS.

What we're doing may be bad, but these guys are eviler, by many, many miles. What the Nazis did was so thoroughly reprehensible because the Jews were largely good, peaceful citizens. Yes, they were finally provoked to the Uprising, but that was only after much peaceful petition for redress of grievances.

The denizens of Fallujah were, in large number, neither good nor peaceful. They were offered means of peaceful petition several times over, and with elections coming up will be offered means again. As long as effective means of peaceful resistance and change are available violence is not excusible.

It's a shame our troops have lost lives on this one. It's a shame children young enough to be innocent have lost lives. As for their parents, all of them either were killers, or were the sisters and mothers of killers, or aided killers, or tolerated killers - not soldiers in a justifiable battle but total thugs. If the city is turned into a prison colony, that's about appropriate.

[crimnos]

65. Generally I would agree...

But you can't paint the entire city with the Baathist brush. What have the innocents of the city done to deserve being imprisoned in their own city? Because they didn't resist enough? I have a hard time believing that many of these people were capable of resisting the insurgents; many were probably just trying to live their lives around the chaos. Might as well turn LA or DC or New York into a prison city because people aren't doing enough to resist the gangs there.

And on the rest of it, people are going to be forced to rebuild from damage that they were never responsible for in the first place?

[NNN0LHI]

104. And what have Baathist's done to America that they deserved to be killed?

Maybe you don't like them because they refuse to bow down to the USA? Would you bow down to another countries military if we were ever to be invaded and occupied?

Don

[crimnos]

118. I have a problem with the history of the Baath party in Iraq

But I agree, they have done nothing to the US, and have every right to resist. It is their country, not ours.

To clarify: I was opposed to this from the beginning, and despise almost every action we have taken in Iraq. I didn't like what had been done to Iraq by the Baath party, but the same thing goes on in other countries and we don't invade there. I can think of several other countries that could use help (NOT military occupation) more than Iraq. All I was saying in this instance is that, even if you accept the pretext that insurgents and Baathists are worthy of death (which I disagree with), you can't say that everyone in the city is a member of those groups.

[NNN0LHI]

119. Thank you for answering. I have a problem with the history of Republicans

...in this country, but I sure do not promote killing them because of it.

Don

[crimnos]

120. Hah...good reply. I agree. :) n/t

[IllegalCombatant]

67. nanking is a much more apt analogy

the japanese had a very hard time distingusing between their 'illegal combatants' and innocent civilians as well.

[Minstrel Boy]

68. "If the city is turned into a prison colony, that's about appropriate."

Wonderful parody. Thank you. My sides are aching from laughter.

I particularly enjoyed this:

"As for their parents, all of them either were killers, or were the sisters and mothers of killers, or aided killers, or tolerated killers"

You perfectly captured the uninformed brutalism of the American exceptionalist. Well done.

Looking forward to more of your wit.

[daleo]

70. The other big difference: Nazis didn't have the internet

So, shameless distortions of fact can now be more quickly debunked.

For example, the idea that "the denizens of Fallujah were...neither good nor peaceful". Considering that their city was:
- invaded by a foreign army
- innocent citizens were shot by those troops
- their city has been re-invaded twice by that same army
- high explosives have been dropped by the world's most powerful Air Force
- and indiscriminate killing has occurred by that military's ground forces.

Yeah, I would say that it takes real shameless nerve for a citizen of the invading country to accuse them of being neither good nor peaceful.

[Bridget Burke]

74. How many Fallujans do you know--personally.

Someone needs to be convicted, tried & found guilty before going to prison. Yet you consider a whole city should be turned into a prison camp.

Whether or not any of the people were Baathists--they're resisting an illegal invasion of their country.

[Bouncy Ball]

75. Whoa.

You just said all adult Fallujahns are killers.

That is just patently untrue. And you base your rationalization for what the US is doing to the city and the people there based on that false statement.

Are you sure about that thing about being a liberal and proud of it?

It's true the Jews were innocent, but it is NOT true that every adult citizen of Fallujah is a killer in some way. Sheesh.

[RaleighNCDUer]

81. Are you fucking insane?

We invaded their country on no grounds whatsoever. It doesn't matter who the insurgents are. They have every right to resent us.

You attempt to justify the slaughter of thousands of innocents because they might be related thugs? Is that how we are supposed to deal with the world?

Go home to freeperville.

[Lerkfish]

83. oh, cool....genocide sounds so much BETTER if you call them evil first

that makes it more palatable.

I especially love this part:

"It's a shame our troops have lost lives on this one. It's a shame children young enough to be innocent have lost lives. As for their parents, all of them either were killers, or were the sisters and mothers of killers, or aided killers, or tolerated killers - not soldiers in a justifiable battle but total thugs. If the city is turned into a prison colony, that's about appropriate."

tolerated killers, eh? so...because there was a killer in their neighborhood, but they didn't kill the killer, they deserved to be treated like prisoners?

Is that like "Jew sympathizers"? they were also sent to the camps, don't forget.

[LibertyorDeath]

92. "I usually consider myself a liberal"

usually but not in this instance as you are spewing a lot of right wing
propaganda bullshit.

READ & LEARN What the Crap media you Watch way to much of does not want you or the rest of America to know. The Entire fucking Planet KNOWS what's in this article & they are growing to HATE Rightarded Americans for it.

(Rightarded Americans not to be confused with open minded decent Americans loved around the World)

Unembedded in Iraq

http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture/20669

"I usually consider myself a liberal"

well lets just see shall we

[JohnLocke]

100. "long-time Baathist stronghold"

Uh, no. :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[Forkboy]

111. "eviler"? Thanks George

:puke:

[dave420]

112. Innocent until proven guilty

You're saying they're ba'athists and bad guys, but according to whom? The US? Well, in that case, you'd have to believe the Nazi's explanation of the contents of the Warsaw Ghetto - that jewish people were bad. Clearly that's not the case.

You're making a mistake. You're listening to the occupying power as it describes those it controls. IT is labelling them bad guys. No independent research has been done in it. No trials, nothing. To assume they're bad is horrific.

Even if the guys in there with guns are bad, to say the entire CITY needs to be under lock-down is just silly. There is crime in LA, so should LA be locked down? People killed for not having a badge? Is that cool?

I understand what you're saying, but you've made a fatal assumption, on which you've based your entire post. Suggesting the entire city should be a prison makes me feel sick to my stomach.

If you still feel that way, you're no liberal. Might I suggest opening your eyes to what's ACTUALLY going on, not just what you're told. Sheesh.

[democratic wing]

69. Not to worry!

Daddy Bush & Co. are using Fallujah as a trial run for what is coming in the good ol' USofA.

Let's see,there's the American Community Survey,an ANNUAL census that asks veeery personal questions;Daddy's mental health program to weed out and medicate dissenters;RFID chips to implant in every bod and eventually in every individual consumer product;public pat-downs/feel-ups at every airport;national i.d. cards that include a host of biometric identifiers;etc.,etc.

But not to worry! All these programs are meant to keep us safe from the bad "terrrists."

The only question is,who's gonna protect us from our gooberment?

[neweurope]

71. Nobody will protect you.

Nobody will protect us here in Europe either.

"Usually I don't pay much attention to comparisons to Nazi Germany and Nazi-occupied territories during WWII, since what went on then was SO over the top compared to MOST things now," -

That's one of the biggest problemes here! Hitler didnt start killing Jews either. He waited until he had made everything airtight. 1933 life was still pretty good. But you are getting fenced in - a little nibbling at civil rights here, a little propaganda there... I fear the awakening will be terrible.

It will be terrible even for the board member here who said "The Jews were innocent. Fallujah on the other hand is a long-time Baathist stronghold... It's a shame children young enough to be innocent have lost lives. As for their parents, all of them either were killers, or were the sisters and mothers of killer..."

KILLERS? Who, please, are the killers here? Have you looked at that map? What was the first thing the US-troops hit at Fallujah? The biggest hospital. The troops were in the north of the city. The hospital was in the bend of the river. Accidental??! "Sisters or mothers of a killer..." - The nazis had that too. It was called "Sippenhaft". The whole family was punished if one of their members did anything. You demand and excuse "Sippenhaft"? It is unbelievable!


A model city, oh yes.

"an ID card, which will only allow them to travel around their homes or to nearby aid centers which are now being built.
The Marines will be authorized to use deadly force against those breaking the rules" -

That is taking civilians prisoner. That is one more breach of the Geneva Convention and a terrible one at that. I cannot forgive our governments over here for not protesting openly and loudly. But then again - whenever I speak to a fellow German of my fears concerning the US they look at me as if I'm gone crazy, not to be taken seriously. Because it is all unbelievable they don't believe it.

"We need to be the benevolent, dominant tribe."
May I please throw up?!

God have mercy on them and on us. Fallujah a concentration camp.

I do so hope at least the badges will be yellow.

[Bouncy Ball]

76. Your first quote was from me

and I'm afraid it was a bit misunderstood. What I meant was I normally don't pay much attention to comparisons between what is going on in IRAQ and Nazi Germany.

But I completely agree that Hitler did not just wake up one day, invade Poland, round up all the Jews and kill them. I have studied that era very carefully and he moved s-l-o-w-l-y. So slowly most Germans didn't notice until it really began to affect them directly.

Chilling when I look at today.

[Petrodollar Warfare]

94. 20th vs. 21st century propaganda...

Same propaganda, different actors in a different century. I predict the same dismal outcomes...

21st Century Propaganda

“You can’t distinguish between al Qaeda and Saddam when you talk about the war on terror.”
- President George W. Bush, 2002

"I'm the commander - see, I don't need to explain - I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation."

- President George W. Bush, as quoted in Bob Woodard’s book, Plan of Attack

“God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them.”

- President George W. Bush, as reported by former Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas, 2003

"I think in this case international law stood in the way of doing the right thing."

- Richard Perle, Defense Policy Board Advisory Committee, November 19, 2003

"All’s fair in war… and in love. Practicing deceit to fulfill your heart’s desire might be not only legitimate, but delicious!"

- Michael Ledeen, as quoted in his book, Machiavelli on Modern Leadership: Why Machiavelli's Iron Rules Are as Timely and Important Today as Five Centuries Ago


20th Century Propaganda

Goering: "Why, of course, the people don't want war….That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."

Gilbert:"There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars."

Goering: "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

- Gustave Gilbert, a German-speaking intelligence officer and psychologist, who interviewed and recorded the observations of Hermann Goering, Nazi Reichsmarshal and Luftwaffe chief, during the Nuremberg War Criminal trials, April 18, 1946


<<<God have mercy on them and on us. Fallujah a concentration camp.
>>>

Yes, my sentiments exactly.

BTW, where in Germany are you?

[neweurope]

95. Frankfurt Area :)

[Poppyseedman]

72. Anybody else thinking Warsaw Ghetto...... No.

Actually this is nothing like the Warsaw ghetto. I take offense that you would compare the two.

The stated objective of the Nazi's were the complete elimination of all Jews. The systematic starvation of hundreds of thousands of men, women and children being shipped off to gas chambers after they became no use as slave labor or too old.

Our military has not stated the Iraq people are to be part of "the final solution". We are feeding them, suppling medical care and rebuilding their city.

Not very Nazi like of us.

Having said all that:
I am very disturbed by these tactics. They do smack of a government running out of options, using methods that look more like an occupation than a nation building exercise Iraq has turned into. Doing things like this is not going to win the hearts and minds of a people, so it is a very bad idea.

[neweurope]

79. I'm moved nearly to tears

by your kindness in rebuilding their city.

So far we haven't even seen you feeding and giving medical attention to the people you shot up, bombed and bedecked with napalm/phosphor.

By the way: Nobody in Germany spoke openly of a "final solution". Not very Nazi-like? Give 'em time, give 'em time. The US are just beginners after all.

[Poppyseedman]

82. Let's deal with the facts

We are in fact feeding, giving medical help and rebuilding their city.

That is easy information to confirm.

Just for the record, being in Iraq at all is a bad idea, but we are there. Nothing we can do can change that, especially after Nov. 3d

Yes, Bush did destroy their city, and having done what he did to Fallujah will be one of these things history will judge. Probably will judge it harshly.

It just pisses me off, that even as morally corrupt as this war has become, thanks to Chimp and his war machine, it is not even close to what occurred in Europe.

To compare our military to what the Nazi did is a disservice to Americans who serve there.

Also to claim that this bullshit is coming to American also does a disservice to all American who love freedom and would fight to the death defending her if a tyrant ever took total control.

[neweurope]

84. Sorry, with all due politeness, this is a load of crap.

"Americans who love Freedom and will fight to the death defending her"

Oh yes. To the death of every last Fallujahn/Dakota/(insert pretty much whatever you want, Americans have seen a lot of the Globe).

Don't we just see that they don't fight? The election was stolen. Where is the outcry?
Don't we see that civil rights are taken away (PATRIOT) - can't hear any outcry whatsoever...

"To compare our military to what the Nazi did is a disservice to Americans who serve there."
As I said: Give 'em time. And listen to some Iraquis. "Not even close to what happened in Europe": Of course not. So far only Afghanis and Iraqis have been butchered. Wait till the first nuclear bomb goes off. And I really do not care whether the US drops ist or some poor other country that is bullied by the US. Dead we'll be.

"Disservice to Americans who serve there". As a European I stand under no obligation whatsoever to "support our troops". By the way, being a German with all the load of history that entails: I have never ever understood how somebody could say "My country right or wrong."

If your countrymen and even some Europeans like me are afraid of a Fascist regime in the US it would seem wise to listen carefully to what they have to say.

[CAcyclist]

97. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

Thank you for your posts.

[Rochambeau]

102. Hello Neweurope and adios Poppy ! :D !!! n/t

[Flying Coyote]

88. Facts?

Falluja '04 = Cleveland '05.

"This bullshit" has already come to America, and a tyrant HAS taken control.

It would be too depressing to enumerate all of the recent police state moves, so how about just the "New Freedom Initiative"? State controlled 'mental health screening' for all the children and expectant mothers, later to expand to all citizens. Taken with the fact that parents are now losing their children for refusal to give them *amphetamines* and other drugs (while AIDS patients are being dragged off to prison for smoking weed), this should scare the hell out of you.

We are being set up, and I'm afraid that they can do pretty much anything to the sheeple as long as they are kept frightened and have large-screen TVs. I hope I'm wrong.

[peacebird]

93. a few more facts poppy - think you've eaten too many seeds

poppyseed said "We are in fact feeding, giving medical help and rebuilding their city."

slight problem there pops. we have KICKED the Red Crescent (Red Cross) OUT of Fallujah. Said it was "too dangerous" for them to be there. So no - we are not tending the wounded or feeding the people anymore.

as for rebuilding their city - well - duh - after all WE flattened it. But i am willing to bet you we will not rebuild it, any more than we have rebuilt Afghanistan. Fine example of "democracy" on the march there too, but that's another nightmare.

our soldiers are shooting and killing wounded fighters, not offering aid. Haven't you seen the video yet? We demanded people leave the city before the assault BUT REFUSED TO ALLOW ANY MALE 14 to 40 years of age to go with their families? When we were about to bomb it into DUST?!? That is a war crime. i guess Innocent until proven guilty is a concept too difficult for you.

[dave420]

114. You're missing the point

We're comparing what the US is doing now, with what Hitler was doing in the early 30s. Not early 40s, but early 30s. There's a big difference. Heck, the war didn't properly kick off until '39.

You might think it's doing a disservice, but then it could be argued that they're doing themselves a disservice. The US troops have been shown willfully executing unarmed Iraqis. They are so poor at policing a nation they use PHOSPHOR and ATTACK HELICOPTERS to keep a population under control. That doesn't ring any bells? These Iraqis didn't ask for any of this. They wanted freedom, and look what they've got? The largest, most inaccurate military force in the world with more money than skill is raining down explosives and death to the entire country, piece by piece.

If you're proud of the US troops in Iraq, may I suggest spending more time reading about what they have done, and less time buying flags.

Sorry if I offend anyone, but I'm fed up listening to people spouting on about the US troops there. I want them ALL home, and I don't blame them personally. I blame the institution, and the ideology that runs the whole show.

[HeartLikeAWheel]

99. Ghetto, maybe not; Warsaw, definitely yes.

So far, the US has indeed not articulated any eliminationist ideology regarding the Iraqis, so comparisons to the Warsaw Ghetto may be a bit extreme. However, the tragedy of the Holocaust has obscured Hitler's activities in the rest of Poland. As Gentiles, Poles were not slated for elimination, but, as Slavs, they were considered inferior and destined for forced labor for Germany. It wasn't only the Ghetto that was destroyed; it was the city of Warsaw. The film _The Pianist_ memorializes this fact when the main character emerges from hiding into a sea of rubble. He had been hiding OUTSIDE the Ghetto. Gentile characters in the early 60s Polish film _Ashes and Diamonds_ ask each other "WERE you from Warsaw?" So, Fallujah does equal Warsaw.

[dave420]

113. Feeding? Feeding who?

Have you read the news? The US military FORCED the Iraqi Red Crescent out of Fallujah. The US military blew up their hospital. The US military seems to be doing EVERYTHING to kill as many Iraqis as possible. The fact they haven't admitted it means nothing. If Hitler had issued pamphlets entitled "Jewish people are cool!" and did what he did, would that excuse him? Of course not. What Hitler and the US say is of little consequence. What they DO means everything.

Thinking about it, even the Nazis fed and gave medical aid to the jewish people. They then moved them where no-one could see, and killed them.

So yes, it IS very Nazi of us. It's Nazi of everyone complicit in this fucking abomination of a war. I could quite easily throw up if I thought about it too much.

The time for "hearts and minds" is long gone. The US has proven itself to care nothing about Iraqi people. The video footage of US troops executing unarmed Iraqis proves that to most people.

What TV channel have you been watching???

[ExclamationPoint]

73. Sound a bit like South Africa eh?

They did it to black people there, we're doing it to Muslims here.

[RaleighNCDUer]

77. And those returnees, who were not insurgents,

will get a good look at what we've done to their city, and see how they are treated, and join up with the insurgents.

In six months we'll have to do it all over again.

[Blue_Tires]

78. who wants to bet that the company making the scan technology

is connected to halliburton, and just got a nice, fat contract??

[ucmike]

86. just what i was thinking........

follow the money. the bushies didn't come up with this on their own, someone sold them the idea. what's worse: the incompetence/agenda of this administration or the corporate powers who keep pushing them forward? its like a bunch of high school seniors talking the dumb freshman into doing whatever they come up with.

betcha we see this technology in our prisons soon. fallujah is a perfect place for a trial program.


reminds me of chips i've seen that were supposedly taken from ufo abductees, also reminds me of x-files episodes where it turned out the immunization programs were actually a cover for collecting a genetic database.

it's hard not to put on a tin foil hat these days. i'm trying hard, really hard............

[ucmike]

89. i had to come back to this topic....

imagine you are trying to get back to fallujah and are stopped at the checkpoint for identification....

you may or may not have a home to go back to,
you probably don't have power or water,
you have no job unless the military assigns you to a forced work detail,
you may or may not have the means to feed yourself or your family,

but the marines are there with millions of dollars worth of high tech eyeball scanners and dna tests and mag strip id cards.

how's that make you feel on your return to fallujah. think these guys really care about bringing you freedom? with a retina scan? hmmm...

Bush&Co, breeding insurgency one retina scan at a time.

there's so many things wrong with this story. i need a drink.


(p.s... i've been to about a dozen facilities that have fingerprint or retina recognition systems and have only seen one that was operational. the rest were torn apart and never worked. i know its being used widely, but i've got my doubts that marines at some dusty checkpoint are going to be able to get a whole lot of use out of it)

[grumpy old fart]

90. Oh hell, just bring back Saddam and be done with it. n/t

[Guarionex]

96. It's EXACTLY like the Warsaw Ghetto

Same underlying principle:

Occupying power sets the social rules and restriction on life for another group...the only difference is that the Nazis were clear about speaking about their superiority, while American soldiers fool themselves into thinking their providing freedom and democracy for their victims in Iraq...but don't let that fool you...American soldiers harbor disdainful feelings for the Iraqis...behind all the rosy rhetoric...Iraqis are sandniggers to them...

Thorougly disgusted...America is not JUST flirting with fascism, with this and other incidents in Iraq and everywhere else, it's confirmed that it is dabbing INTO fascism.

[UCLA Dem]

98. And Orwell roles in his grave again.

1984 anyone?

[Democrat Dragon]

101. *Sigh* Bush co. thinks 1984 is an instruction manual

when it was really written as a warning.

I think I'm gonna start packing my bags.
:puke: :argh: :scared:

[renaissanceguy]

123. More people need to read 1984.

It scared me shitless because it is so prophetic of what is happening NOW and what will happen in the future.

If you haven't read it yet, I HIGHLY recommend it.

---------------------
Buy liberal and progressive buttons, bumper stickers, and shirts at www.cafepress.com/liberalissues

[juliagoolia]

105. Why go back?

If my home was in that hell hole, I'd be looking for a new place to call home. Why go back? Go back for what?

I'd be afraid to take my kids back. I'd probably assume my house was in crumbles. I think I would wait until after the elections to go back. I'd hope that who ever my fellow citizens elected would throw the U.S. out immediately.

Lets assume you had a home full of 'crap' before you left. If you left it, the criminal underworld that stayed behind to fight probably looted it, and it got blown to bits where they were hiding out. If you had a decent home the fighters probably used it to eat, sleep,and hang out in, and when they were through with it the US forces probably came in and used it up.

I'd probably feel so violated I would not want to go back.

Does anyone know what percentage of "property" is owned by individuals in Iraq?

If I owned my property outright and it was not damaged( which is hard to imagine), I would probably try to get it sold from afar.

This assumes a lot I know. But really Muslims are less materialistic than us, and I would think a lot of them are thinking about not going back if they can find somewhere else to go. This is where family values meets the pavement, and people think about what is really important. I am sure they are worried about any namby pamby civil contracts between individuals like we are. Geeeeeeesh!

Is there anything to go back to? How much damage was done?

This is all so ridiculous its hard to discuss rationally. All I can do is shake my head and wonder what its all about Alfie. I will probably not sleep well again.

I wish to hell that frigging Bush had as much trouble sleeping as I do, or the poor waitress I talked to tonight who has a confused son over there (that she is working two jobs so she can give him a car if he makes it back alive), or the poor mother in a refugee camp outside the hellhole she once called home, or my friend Faiza who had to move in Baghdad cause her home kept getting the windows bombed out. No, George and his family don't worry their heads bout all this trivial drivel like those other kind of people do, they've gone shopping for inaugural attire.

[dave420]

115. Yeah, but you're not poor

These people might not have any money in the world. Living in a wor-torn country isn't that good for the bank balance, regardless of what Fox will tell you.

It's hard to just up and move leaving everything behind if you have no money.

I think any expectations we have on people movement in Iraq are silly. They aren't messing about - they're doing what they have to to survive. We're the lucky ones here, remember.

[Barkley]

106. I don't think even Sharon has tried this one?

"One idea that has stirred debate among Marine officers would require all men to work, for pay, in military-style battalions. Depending on their skills, they would be assigned jobs in construction, waterworks, or rubble-clearing platoons"


... AND IF THEY REFUSE?!?!?!


"Residents would receive badges displaying their home addresses that they must wear at all times. Buses would ferry them into the city, where cars, the deadliest tool of suicide bombers, would be banned."


Is this against the Geneva Accords?

[dave420]

116. It is, but then...

Every single thing the US has done in Iraq is against the Geneva convention. Their entering the country in the first place is against it. That doesn't bother them. It doesn't bother the American people, either, as it's some european document, and so worthless.

[RuleofLaw]

122. Forced labor is against a lot of ceonventions

"In the former Yugoslavia, between 1993 and 1996, forced labor was used by all sides, but most systematically in the Serb-controlled areas of northern Bosnia, where non-Serb minorities under Bosnian Serb control were subject to a “work obligation.” Forced labor details were assigned to the front line of conflict; they were also put to work in factories and mines; the work obligation was used as a means of public humiliation for prominent members of minority ethnic groups.

All these practices involve infringements of one or other of the various international agreements that touch on the issue of forced labor. Article 3 common to the four Geneva Conventions of 1949 applies in internal conflicts and requires humane treatment to those who do not take part in hostilities and arguably limits forced labor by imposing minimum standards on it. The Fourth Geneva Convention specifies that, in occupied territory, civilians cannot be compelled to join the armed forces of an occupying power, or to engage in certain kinds of war-related work, such as the production of munitions, and if under age eighteen they may not be forced to work at all. Civilians under military occupation, both in wars between States and, as specified in Additional Protocol II of 1977, in internal conflicts, cannot be required to work longer hours or under conditions worse than the local norm. Civilian internees in a war between States cannot be compelled to work, unless they are medical personnel (who can be required to attend fellow internees) or are employed in administrative, kitchen, civil defense, or other work on behalf of other internees. Enforced prostitution is specifically prohibited in Article 27 of the Fourth Convention."


http://www.crimesofwar.org/thebook/forced-labor.html

[Barkley]

108. Its only a matter of time before we're retina scanned and issued badges

I don't think that this is just being done for Falluja's sake.

Its a stupid extra layer of bureauracry that will do little to stop the resistance.

[gjb]

125. Gattaca, coming to a Blue State near you.

You're right, Falluja's just a test bed for Techno-Fascism and what better place to test New World Order/Transformational Warfare technologies than a slave state peopled by heathen Moslem's. Just think, if Worldwide Bush Inc. gets away with it there, where will they try it next?

How about Washington DC, Puerto Rico or the Virgin Islands since they're 'protectorates' not real states. After that move on to the traitorous blue states; Illinois, Washington or maybe California and how about those borders with Canada and Mexico?

Fact is retinal scanning was floated as an option for Canadian border 'security'last year but was quietly dropped.

It was also considered for the Mexican border but it was found to be too expensive to develop retinal scanners with 'mobile night vision capability' (MNVC) for the new Stryker Brigade Combat Teams (SBCTs) that will be guarding the Mexican border in the near future. Instead it has been determined that shooting Mexican illegals is much cheaper and to many Texas vigilantes, perfectly legal.

Am I getting the hang of FReeper/NeoCon/Podpeople speak yet?

Seriously, I emailed the Kerry Campaign website before the election to let them know how much Canadians were terrified at the thought of four more years of BushCo Gotterdammerung. In my email I suggested that if Bush was reelected Falluja would become the next Mi Lai massacre. As it turns out I was right.

Man, I really hate it when I'm right.

[0rganism]

110. Ya know, I could see Saddam Hussein really digging this kind of plan

I don't know how much news he gets to read in his prison cell, but I bet if he saw this article he'd be thinking, "Damn! Now if only I'd had that kind of technology when it was my turn!"

If there was ever any doubt that the US invasion would simply replace one totalitarian state with another... well, we've certainly come full circle on this "Iraqi Freedom" thing.

[Amaya]

124. Is this legal?

What if they refuse to submit?