Marines, Sailors Deploy; One Sailor Refuses To Board

[UpInArms]

http://www.10news.com/news/3974063/detail.html

SAN DIEGO -- About 6,000 Marines and sailors from Expeditionary Strike Group 5 departed from the 32nd Street Naval Station San Diego Monday aboard six ships bound for the Western Pacific.



One sailor assigned to one of the ships refused to board the vessel to protest the U.S. presence in Iraq.

"I just want people to see how people feel about this. It's not just a few crazy liberals talking to the media to make money. I'm not making any money, I'm going to jail for a year for this. I want to do because I feel that strongly about it and I know a lot of people feel this way," Petty Officer Third Class Pablo Paredes told 10News.

Paredes, 23, wore a T-shirt that read: 'Like a cabinet member, I resign.'

<snip>

"I know other people are feeling the same way I am, and I'm hoping more people will stand up," he said. "They can't throw us all in jail."



...more...

[mark414]

1. bravo

how can i send this guy a letter?

[private_ryan]

20. most jails accept letters

n/t

[roguevalley]

2. god bless him and all the others.

[goddess40]

3. Is there a way to write to this brave man?

This is the type of soldier I support the most I hope there are many more like him.

[The Blue Flower]

4. Vote in poll

There's a poll at the site to vote on whether you agree with him.

[dkofos]

9. I voted yes

Yes = 40%
no = 60%

[sarahlee]

40. I voted

forgot to copy the counts, but NO was down to 53%

[uppityperson]

66. yes 53%, no 47

Signing up to serve and protect doesn't mean it's ok to commit war crimes. Being in jail is preferable.

[Qanisqineq]

5. Brave, very brave

I don't think my husband would have the courage to do that. Also, he wouldn't want to leave me without money since I am currently unemployed. But I am glad this man had the courage to do it.

[Not_Giving_Up]

6. Bravo!

My brother is currently deployed in a sub, so we don't know where he is.

[dkofos]

10. He's safe for now

[KingChicken]

7. I'll back that, where's the rally?

This takes a lot to stand up against an entire country (51% at least), the few who do will pave the way for others. Let's stand up against this thing tougether!

[SheepyMcSheepster]

8. wow

i hope somehow things like this start to make a difference.

[freedom rings]

11. This is wrong: somebody else had to go.

5,999 military members did their obligation and 1 did not, yet the media spends more time talking about the .17% that refused to follow orders than the 99.83% that did.

I am sorry, but this means that some other parent's son or daughter has to go because this one person decided to break an oath he made.

The fact is that you do NOT get to pick & choose the conflict you think is worthy of your blood when you enlist. You follow orders to defend and protect freedom & democracy.

[sandnsea]

12. Let those that voted to go

GO. There's millions of them. I support this young man 150%.

[Maat]

14. I support him, too.

He's not saying that he doesn't believe in combat/defense (whatever), he's saying that he does not believe in THIS action. If he has a defense fund, I'd like to know.

[DireStrike]

13. "Defend and protect freedom and democracy"

He is. By not going.

I wouldn't normally agree, but then I would never have thought, in the past, that we could have such corrupt leadership here in the US.

[Cheswick2.0]

15. how are the people in Iraq protecting freedom or democracy?

Iraq was no threat to our freedom or democracy. They weren't a threat to anyone elses either. They aren't freer than they were and as for democracy in Iraq...JOKE. Tell me again in 5 years how glorious a democracy Iraq is.

[Rzrbk]

46. We weren't attacked by Bosnia either ...

We can look at Afghanistan RIGHT NOW and see democracy. What will you say in the next several months when there IS democracy in Iraq?

[KayLaw]

74. What will you say...

when there isn't? I didn't realize that was the reason Bush invaded Iraq in the first place. I could have sworn he said they were about to attack us and we needed to ivade right away. As I recall, there wasn't even time to allowing bidding for the contract we awarded Halliburton.

Ao, gee, is this our new policy? We're just going to bomb and shoot people who have forms of government Bush doesn't care for? Or would that be only the ones that have lots of oil?

Just so you know, I don't believe we have democracy in this country anymore. If we do, why are we up in arms about funny exit polls in other countries, when the numbers in our own country have been totally off the past two years?

[leftynyc]

91. We weren't LIED TO about Bosnia

when are the chimps supporters going to realize that....the reasons for this war change by the minute with this administration and are being supported by the same people that thought lying about a blow job was the end of civilization as we know it.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

105. Some democracy. I'd rather live in Cuba. (nt)

[insane_cratic_gal]

16. your freedom is in your choice

5,999 other's had the same choice.

I voted Yes, and I am a military family, i'm glad to see more of us coming forward.

It's important to support that choice, so freepers like the lurkers will see, we are waking up, we know it's not about freedom from terrorism(all we have done is stirred a bee hive) it's about ensuring a Neo-con agenda

[classof56]

29. Welcome to DU!

Glad you are here to help us fight on!

[alexisfree]

17. I am proud of this true soldier.

A true smart soldier. He is not a puppet nor a rat to go fight a war where the odds of you dying are 1 out of 10. Die for what? FOR OIL!!!

[Charon]

82. I am proud of this true soldier

This man was a sailor on one of the ships.

[Benhurst]

18. The oath he made was to The Constitution and the Republic,

not to BushAmerica and the Bush Crime Family.

Count the Votes! Restore the Republic!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

19. I admire this man. He's willing to face consequences.

Gandhi style civil disobedience -- to a tee. Kudos to him.

[el_gato]

22. that somebody else should be you!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Forkboy]

71. LMAO

direct and to the the point as always :thumbsup:

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

23. Speaking of going.....

aren't you due to leave about now?
We all know this ain't about freedom and democracy friend......

[Mike Niendorff]

24. Simple solution, FR :

Why don't you get off your sorry internet-warrior-wannabe ass and ENLIST.

Not willing to put your own ass on the line? Then you've got no business expecting others to do it for you.

Put up or shut up.


MDN

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

26. Hey, I hadn't noticed the acronym. (nt)

[Blue_Tires]

30. he didn't sign on for some illegal invasion to fatten

halliburton's profits....if his staying home affects you so much, feel free to take his place...good to see that there are still some soldiers that think for themselves, rather than keep repeating jingoistic quasi-patriotism to justify immoral actions

[tkmorris]

31. Aye, there's the rub

You DO take an oath to "protect and defend" etc upon enlisting in the service. The trouble is that there are many who fervently believe that our invasion and ongoing occupation of Iraq has absolutely nothing whatever to do with fulfilling that oath.

Being in the military service of any nation entails swearing to protect that nation against it's enemies. It's not a promise anyone should make lightly, but it is not an agreement to become an indentured servant, nor does it absolve the individual soldier of all responsibility for his/her actions (See: Nuremberg). Each soldier not only has the right, but has the responsibility to examine whether the orders he/she is given are in fact lawful orders.

It has been suggested by many that the US invasion of Iraq was and is illegal. Whether you or I agree with that assessment is immaterial; if the soldier in question believes it then he is correct to refuse the order. Some might view it as treason, in fact there are plenty who might believe that simply putting forth this opinion is treason, but that is not for us to decide. This sailor made that call and he appears to be prepared to accept the consequences of it.

[Earth_First]

32. RE: "This is wrong: somebody else had to go."

here you go: www.dior.whs.mil/forms/DD0004.pdf

Fill out all appropriate fields and return to your local recuriting/retention office. They'll be glad to have you.

[yorkiemommie1]

63. yeah

walk your talk. they're taking old great grannies and disabled folks and new mommies. go on in....the water's fine!

let us know when you deploy.

[oneighty]

34. Our brave president Bush the Second

got to pick and chose.

180

[goddess40]

35. that someone else's child should follow suit and refuse too!

This war is wrong, and refusing to go is the right thing to do.

Edit: someone elses son went for Bush, was that right - evidently almost half the voters believed it was just fine.

[TahitiNut]

36. Maybe that "somebody else" is a Bushbot.

Maybe that "somebody else" is a member of We the People who wants to leave the job of democracy to the troops, too.
Maybe that "somebody else" is someone hiding, hoping that their neighbor gets drafted instead of them.
Maybe that "somebody else" is a person of voting age who couldn't be bothered to vote.
Maybe that "somebody else" is a person who doesn't like discussing politics because he just wants to go along to get along.


I know that near the top of my list of reasons for obeying orders (after a technical objection and resistance) and going to Vietnam was my concern that if I didn't go then somebody else would - perhaps someone with less chance of surviving.

That was my choice. It's not an easy one. Less easy in most ways is the choice to disobey orders. We cannot 'expect' people serving in the military to do this - and it's a potentially dangerous precedent. The job of taking control over the government and its predations is ours - not the troops. The job of protest, up to and possibly including civil disobedience is ours, not the troops. At the same time, I support this young man, if not his choice, and support the sense of morality that impelled him to make this choice.

[NCN007]

80. Thank you sir

For going when so many left that responsibility to fall on the shoulders of others who lacked the means to escape

[acmavm]

39. When are you shipping out?

.

[leesa]

43. Wrongo, buddy. What is happening in Iraq has NOTHING to do

with protecting freedom and democracy. This brave young man is absolutely right to refuse to enter into an illegal invasion against a disarmed country.

[theHandpuppet]

51. Are you volunteering?

Just thought I'd ask.

[Dem2theMax]

65. Fine. I know just the person to take his place.

He lives at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. Wash. DC.
Will that make you feel better?
I know, without a doubt, that it would make EVERYONE on this board feel 100% better.

[Swamp Rat]

75. Why don't you go enlist today and help the troops by going there?

That's right, go enlist today and support the troops by GOING THERE. Save the life of a hippie peace-nick here at home by going in their stead. No excuses for prior service, age, or sex. If you are missing a limb or an eye, you can sling hash, pass out ammo or clean the bunks for the soldiers (that are IN COMBAT), or wash their clothes. My cousin wants to come home. He is tired of hauling gas through combat zones and tired of watching people get burned to death. Will you take his place? I am totally serious "freedom rings."

"I am sorry, but this means that some other parent's son or daughter has to go because this one person decided to break an oath he made." Are you really "sorry?" If so, then YOU go replace a soldier that has already served three tours and is totally exhausted.

It's the most patriotic thing you can do today. Uncle Sam wants YOU "freedom rings." Go protect freedom & democracy for the United States of America "freedom rings." - in Iraq!

NO EXCUSES!

[Mari333]

81. If it was your kid you would say hurrah...

believe me.
This young man is a hero.

[Ms_Mary]

85. And when those orders are WRONG, you should blindly follow no matter what?

[eowyn_of_rohan]

96. He can do more to fight for freedom & democracy by staying HERE

...and fighting to bring down the tyrants who committed fraud in the past 2 elections!

[Misunderestimator]

106. Glad to see you're already gone... and I can save my energy

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

108. "defend and protect freedom & democracy" ? exactly how are

we doing this by attacking Iraq?

[prayin4rain]

114. To protect freedom and democracy, yes...

for the power lust and greed of the current administration, no. I have no doubt this man would be proud to fight if he felt he were really defending his country. The truth is he would be killing innocent people because we have an immature moron as president, who is unfortunately representive of the average American.

[montana_hazeleyes]

21. voted yes ,

it's up to 44% yes now.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

27. 45% when I voted (nt)

[w4rma]

25. PATRIOT (nt)

[Sara Beverley]

28. Maybe our only hope is for our own broup of "refuseniks"

I wish we could force every administration official over 30 to put on the greens and be shipped to Iraq.

[livinbella]

37. Yes, we need many many many more reuseniks! He is a hero

[0007]

33. Jays'us Christ a real man with a real pair of balls that does

his own thinking.

Pablo Paredes you are number ONE - I love ya

[haele]

38. Chances are, his enlistment is close to being up...

And he's probably been informed he's been stop-loss'd.
The age of 24 is the typical age for the end of first-time enlistments in the Navy.

Good for him! He recognizes what the price for refusing is, has weighed his options, and is doing what he believes is best.
People "missing movement" happens all the time in the services; it doesn't really mess with manning since there are folks always eagar to take his or her place, unlike what another poster in this thread suggests. Until the deception of the "war on terror" can no longer be denied and more people give up in disgust.

In his command's mind, they'd probably rather have someone doing that and leaving rather than be the focus of trouble and conflict. Especially if they're planning on taking on Iran during this 6 month deployment.
The "case" against Iran in the media is already building up to the post "war" case against Iraq at this time. If I had been through the start of OIL - err - OIF, I'd probably be expecting Iran to be justified as a military target by the end of March/beginning of April.
And if I couldn't accept that My Navy, my service, was being lied into the position of destroying soverign populations and infrastructure to participate in empire building for corporate interests instead of protecting my country, I'd be leaving, too.

Just my two cents.

Haele

[acmavm]

41. 6:44 p.m. CST:

Do you agree with Paredes' actions?
Choice Votes Percentage of 490 Votes
Yes, he is standing up for his beliefs 230 47%
No, he should go no matter what he feels since he voluntarily joined the Navy 260 53%

[leesa]

42. Now THAT is a hero and a true patriot.

He is defending our country and our Constitution.

[NCN007]

78. by refusing to obey lawful orders

and obey the chain of command he is subverting the constitution, which gives the president, even an appointed as opposed to elected one, overall command of the military

[Ms_Mary]

87. Subverting the Constitution? Do you know of a different constitution?

[leftynyc]

92. And is willing to go to jail for it

That's a hero in my book.

[Bouncy Ball]

44. What he did was VERY hard.

And under normal circumstances, I could not condone it. You sign up to serve, you go serve. That's why the CIVILIANS are so important to the military--they DEPEND on us to watch how the government uses them like a hawk. And make a hell of a lot of noise when they are being used improperly. But no one's listening to us. No one's been listening to us.

And these are no longer normal circumstances. We have waged an immoral preventive war.

You CAN refuse to obey an order that you feel is immoral and/or illegal. Wonder if he'll try to fight or just serve the time?

[Rzrbk]

48. He received a lawful order ...

That is not a legal defense. What he did was WRONG.

[ze_dscherman]

67. When the war is unlawful ...

... the order isn't lawful. Remember, please, that the world's majority sees the Iraq war was an unjust war of aggression. If the U.S. were a less influential country (like, e.g., Iraq was), it would be under heavy international sanctions right now.

Refusing to participate in a war of aggression is RIGHT. Sadly, this brave young man will have to face severe punishment for acting according to his CONSCIENCE.

[0007]

113. What junior did is a hell of lot worse.

Get a grip sonny or go take his fucking place.

[vol5516]

45. not right!

Of course he has the right to express his views. BUT, he does NOT have the right to refuse a direct order and that's what he's doing. Whatever his opinions are he must follow direct lawful orders. He gave up his right to refuse when he signed his contract with the military. They are going to nail his a** to the wall and he deserves it! And I hope the mother of the kid who has to go over there now, to fill the position he abandoned, is right there in the front row of his court martial. People like this kid are the reason brigs and prisons exist. Of course, this is IMHO, but any of us who've served don't take kindly to this. I apologize in advance if I've offended anyone. My son is now in Iraq and hates Bush and the war as much as I do, but when you sign up to be a soldier you damn well better do it. This young man WILL do jail time!

[Tight_rope]

58. Not Right?....So your saying it's ok for him to die for lies!

[ze_dscherman]

68. He has the right to refuse an order.

If his conscience tells him that this war is absolutely wrong (which IMO it is), he not only has the right to refuse, but the obligation to do this.

If you feel so sorry for the kid that has to take his place, please enlist.

[Pepperbelly]

73. I served and my son is serving and I think you're full of poo-poo.

If it is wrong, then it is wrong. If you are a believer in the hereafter, imagine answering the almighty, "I killed because my government told me to."

[Ms_Mary]

88. Remember you said that when you or yours get drafted. nt

[wordout]

47. hate your job?

quit.

[Just Me]

49. We have GOT to create a support net for these people.

Seriously.

[Rzrbk]

50. So what happens the next time we're attacked ...

and other soldiers/sailors decide they don't want to serve? Who will defend us? Who will defend YOU? The military, even if you don't want to realize it, IS NOT a democracy. This sailor signed a contract with this country and he's not living up to that contract.

[Rzrbk]

52. Before I'm flamed ... I'm a disabled veteran and believe if

you sign up to serve, you damn well better serve. This young man was in NO physical danger when he failed to board his ship. He deserves and will get jail time. Disobeying a lawful order entails much stronger rational than simply disagreeing with the order.

[neuvocat]

54. That's even worse.

You know the shit these people are headed off to and yet you still don't understand their fear.

You also don't understand why wars involved drafting people into service.

[Rzrbk]

57. How do you know what I do or don't understand????

I've faced the same fear. Just because there is fear involved doesn't mean you have the right to refuse to perform the duty you agreed to perform. What are YOU credentials to address this?

[neuvocat]

60. What are yours?

You sure as hell don't talk like a wounded veteran.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

103. What makes you believe the sailor in question was motivated by fear?

It could have been disgust, indignation. Why assume he's a coward?

[ze_dscherman]

70. He does not disobey because he is afraid

And the order is not lawful if the war is not lawful. Even the U.N. Security council did not endorse the U.S. to wage war against Iraq!

BTW, I'm happy I've met people that resisted in Nazi Germany and survived prison and concentration camps. Guess what, they were sent there because they broke the law ...

[ooglymoogly]

99. iraq is an illegal war according to the un and the world community

if you disobey an order to participate in an illegal war that is killing people...well remember Neurenberg. people were sentenced to death for claiming they were just obeying orders.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

104. He knows what the punishment is by the book, and he's willing to accept it

So what do you suggest? Ignoring the book and burning him at the stake instead?

[Bouncy Ball]

110. And he said he's willing to serve the time.

[HamdenRice]

118. Fear is not the issue ...

If you say you are a disabled vet, unlike others I will take your word for it and thank you for your sacrifice.

I think that many on this thread -- pro and against -- don't understand the position that this young man is taking. He is not saying that he is afraid. It is that soldiers and sailors must follow all lawful orders. There is a very, very serious question about whether orders to be deployed in Iraq are lawful. A soldier or sailor not only has the right to disobey an unlawful order, but a legal and moral obligation. This was proved by the Nuremburg trials.

This is an illegal war, and therefore participating in it is illegal. Moreover, US forces are engaged in widespread human rights violations.

Not only this young man, but every soldier and sailor is obligated to decline orders under these circumstances.

[neuvocat]

53. Give it up already.

I hate it when people are ready to point fingers and tell people to go off and die when they'll be safe at home enjoying their christmas holidays.

[Rzrbk]

55. I've defended my country, so your "give it up already"

is nonsense. I'm not asking anyone to do something I wouldn't do myself. You're enjoying the safety that OTHER people are affording you. AND sitting here safe and sound not supporting them for their efforts.

[neuvocat]

59. Don't tell me what's nonsense

when you're quick to judge others.

And seeing as how you're online, I don't have any reason to actually believe anything you say about your supposed injuries from combat.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[neuvocat]

62. You're right, you don't.

Just like no one has to believe that you have any injuries. You could have just been a klutz who fell down a flight of stairs for all we know.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

102. Thank you.

PLEASE do post more messages like this one. Really.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

97. I think perhaps some don't feel the war in Iraq has anything to do with

defending OUR country, despite the Bush-evik propaganda. And perhaps we need more people to fight HERE, right now, against our illegitimate, evil empire that is sending these boys to their deaths for their own corporate greed and power.

[ze_dscherman]

69. THE U.S. WAS NOT ATTACKED BY IRAQ

Sorry, but I feel like needing to scream this at you. Your argumentation is futile. The U.S. were and are the aggressors in an unjust war, under the guise of WMD's and bringing democracy.

I'm sure this young man would have served his country when it was under attack. This guy is not a coward. It takes a lot of bravery to resist unjust orders and face prison time for that.

[Samurai_Writer]

86. What happens the next time we are attacked?!?

READ THIS VERY CAREFULLY:


IRAQ DID NOT ATTACK THE U.S.!
IRAQ DID NOT ATTACK THE U.S.!
IRAQ DID NOT ATTACK THE U.S.!
IRAQ DID NOT ATTACK THE U.S.!
IRAQ DID NOT ATTACK THE U.S.!
IRAQ DID NOT ATTACK THE U.S.!
IRAQ DID NOT ATTACK THE U.S.!
IRAQ DID NOT ATTACK THE U.S.!
IRAQ DID NOT ATTACK THE U.S.!
IRAQ DID NOT ATTACK THE U.S.!
IRAQ DID NOT ATTACK THE U.S.!
IRAQ DID NOT ATTACK THE U.S.!
IRAQ DID NOT ATTACK THE U.S.!

Got it through your thick skull yet???

[Ms_Mary]

89. Iraq did not attack us. This war is not about defending the US. nt

[Barkley]

95. You're so right Ms_Mary: this war is about OIL!

We attacked Iraq.

This young has courage and is thinking for himself.

He knows the difference between right and wrong and killing people in order to steal their oil is WRONG!

Some people I imagine defer and attributed their actions to authority.

I can understand these peoples' positions.

However, at some point you've gotta stop being a robot and think for yourself.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

107. Enjoy your short stay. (nt)

[Norwood]

111. Iraq did not attack us, this guy is a hero in my book!

As much as you would like to believe that our soldiers are defending our freedom and democracy, its a crock.

We really have no reason to be there at all. Chimpy is on a power trip and wants to finish what his father started. Our soldiers are dying over a grudge and oil money.

All that the "president" has succeeded in was pissing off the rest of the world.

How can we spread "freedom" and "democracy" when our own democracy is dying.

[Tight_rope]

56. Good for him...Why should he die for lies!

[NYC]

64. 52% in the poll agree with him.

Do you agree with Paredes' actions?
596 Votes

Yes, he is standing up for his beliefs 312 votes 52%

No, he should go no matter what he feels since he voluntarily joined the Navy 284 votes 48%

[Forkboy]

72. Ever notice how these threads attract new people?

[wildwww2]

76. Yes. Some people think Chimpy is a hero. But the real hero is

this guy who does not want to die or kill for a lie. The oath he took says that he should defend his country against threats both foreign and domestic. Bu$h Inc. is the domestic threat he and all service people should be protecting us against. Bu$h and his gang of maggots usurped our constitution to get in power. And do not deserve the support of our armed forces. Sworn to protect us. Not wage never ending war. On the other side of the world. Besides the fact that it makes Bu$h and his buddies richer than hell. And to think the liberal media made a big deal over sperm on a dress. But Bu$h can pile up towers of bodies of our troops and innocents. Personal profit included. And the media just snoozes.
Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President

[NCN007]

79. no

You missed an important point. Read my post on the oath of office. Also a sailor on an amphib is not going to die or kill anyone in combat.

[NCN007]

77. what he said

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

This is the enlisted oath of office. No where does it stipulate that you can shrink from your duty if you dont like a particular assignment. By violating this he has broken faith with every one who has taken that oath and believed it, especially those who feel as he does that the war in Iraq is unjust but accept the obligation they made to serve their country. If the entire military decided to pick and choose when and where to fight our country would have been overthrown by a coup a long time ago.

[haele]

101. He's willingly paying the price for his action...

Because he's publicly indicated why he's refusing to go, he'll be facing far more than some other joe who refuses to go because he's got a family hardship or just doesn't want to go. Most ships have one of those every deployment.

Funny thing - if he had used the family hardship reason, there would be a pretty good chance the Navy might give him an emergency change of orders and he could have missed this deployment with very little penalty at all.

The UCMJ allows for him recourse should he feel an order is illegal under the UCMJ - as it allows for any soldier, sailor, or officer to refuse a direct order to pillage, torture, kill a surrendered prisoner, loot, put their unit in unnecessary danger - or put a community in unnecessary danger - or any number of things they might be ordered to do by a commander that isn't in his right mind. Mini-mutinies have been common in the US military for a long time - and some times, when the "mutineers" have been proven correct and their officers who gave the order to be incompetent, the UCMJ has protected those who refused the unlawful order.

As for "If the entire military decided to pick and choose when and where to fight our country would have been overthrown by a coup a long time ago." - just ask Marine General Smedley Butler about that one.

We in DU have gone over this argument every time there has been a case of this nature - starting with the Navy LCDR at the Naval Post Graduate school in Monterey who wrote a public LTE against the build-up for the Iraq war that many Freeper types called "treasonous".

This young man was on the local Air America show today; he indicated that he is doing what he feels he has to do, and is willingly paying the price for it - instead of running off and hiding as an increasing number of sailors and Marines are doing pre-deployment nowadays - because he knows that it won't be as difficult on him as it is to the average intelligent trooper with a family to care for.

If more Officers and Pentagon types would have spoken up - oh, I forgot, Rummy had those that spoke up marginalized and purged...

This is what happens when the Officers above the troops are incompetent. This is an indication of a breakdown in trust of leadership as well as morale. These sorts of actions are important to note; did this sort of thing happen in WWII to the extent it's happening now? Is the action justified?

As a Vet who's had to deal with politics on the command level and has seen some of the so called "considerations" that those in Command often base some of their more outrageous orders on, I may not be able to completely condone what this young man is doing, but I can, as he apparently does, respect it for what it is - a stinging comment against the corruption that is going on in the levels above him by one who is otherwise powerless.

And there's another point to be understood by those who would belittle what he's doing - if he hadn't made this statement the way he has prior to deployment, who knows what sort of morale problems he could have inflicted on his command during deployment? How much internal conflict could his opinions caused to those who knew him?

The "super-patriots" and "just say yes-sir" military pundits should be happy he's dealing with the issue the way he is.

Haele

[NCN007]

121. I grudingly respect

the fact that he is willing to face jail time for his beliefs, although I still dont personally believe it was right. Interesting point about Smedley Butler, I definitly hadnt heard that one before. But from what I understood from reading about that incident it was an attempt of a corporate coup backed by the military, not a military coup.

Its hard for me to see how his duties onboard the amphib could be considered illegal, unless you start digging into just war theory and the constitutional legitimacy of the current administration, concepts way outside the realm of the military. So yes, he can seek recourse under the UCMJ, but it wont do him much good.

For me it goes back to civil control of the military, something many of my peers feel less strongly about than i do, especially when someone from the blue side is in the whitehouse. As long as there is a presidnet, no matter who he is, ther military's overall duty is to fight when and where he says, and there are very limited circumstances under which one can shrink their duty to follow his orders. I dont think this is one of them.

Practically speaking, you could argue whether potential morale problems would be a bigger issue than one less person in his division and duty section. "As a Vet who's had to deal with politics on the command level," I'll defer judgement.

Im interested about the LCDT at NPS. Could you link me that story?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

116. No it would not have..Lord..the brainwashing some of you get in the

military is beyond repair. He took an oath to protect us from threats. IRaq was not a threat. He took an oath to obey the president of the US... neither Al Gore nor John Kerry ordered him to go anywhere..and from the evidence, Al Gore won the last election, and Kerry won this one....since you are so concerned, why not volunteer to take his place?

[NCN007]

122. read my posts

and think for a second before you ask me to sign up. Sadly Kerry concieded the 2004 election, and Gore lost in the supreme court in 2000. As much as it sucks, Bush is the president. Its a good thing the military for the most part doesnt care who its commander is, otherwise Clinton would have had almost no military power to speak of whatsoever.

[Just Me]

117. Our country has been overthrown by a coup.

Didn't you hear?

Perhaps this young man believes he IS defending the Constitution of the United States,...against a domestic enemy: the so-called "neoCONs". He clearly believes the war was unlawful and based upon misrepresentations.

Moreover, he's willing to pay the consequences for his actions.

I acknowledge that he is proving the courage of his convictions.

[fob]

120. Try reading that first line again!

No where does it stipulate that you can shrink from your duty if you dont like a particular assignment.

The first damn line says otherwise;

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."


The oath promises to obey the orders of the POTUS, is tempered by the fact that if the POTUS is a "domestic enemy", which he is, then it's ALL of OUR duty to fight him at every turn.

[DeaconBlues]

83. I support this guy's actions but

who are the "crazy liberals" he believes are making money by expressing their views? Do people really believe that being a member of the progressive minority in this country is a paid job?

Fox News and A.M. radio truly frame the debate in this country when even a dissenter believes this crap.

[HeeBGBz]

84. 49% Yes 51% No. Deja vu

Is Diebold in charge of this poll?

"I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic"

Defending the constitution. It certainly needs defending, but not against Iraq.

"All enemies foreign and domestic." More domestic than foreign nowdays.

[Guitarman]

90. He signed the papers...

he volunteered. These guys piss me off. If you are going to join the military. You are joining an organization thats primary mission is to kill people. If you are going to take advantage of the benefits, take responsibility for the rest of it.
What is worse is that this guy is a sailor! He is not going to be facing the hostile action anyway.
Go directly to the brig. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200.

[leftynyc]

93. Sounds like he's willing to to just that

What are you complaining about?

[stanwyck]

119. I think you

need to listen more to your talk radio friends. The primary mission, according to Bushco, is "Iraqi Freedom". Remember? Not to kill people. That's why we haven't been told how many we've killed. Plus, your "this guy is a sailor...he is not going to face hostile action" is one of the more amazing statements on this board. Congratulations.
Ah, the braying machismo of people who sit on the sofa.

[Canuckistanian]

94. Where are the press gangs when you need 'em?

[Sperk]

98. now THAT's an American Hero!

n/t

[bobweaver]

100. Another article about him, with video

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/militaryconnection/3974846/detail.html

[TNOE]

109. Much More Dissent Here

http://www.albasrah.net/maqalat/english/1204/GI-Special2C39Maimed-For-Bullshit.htm

When members of the Army’s 343rd Quartermaster Company refused orders in Iraq last month they considered too dangerous, it didn’t surprise Michael Hoffman. He had expected something like this. Hoffman, 25, went to Iraq with the Marines, then returned to help found Iraq Veterans Against the War this past July.



“When are asked to put their life on the line for no clear reason. ...” he says, breaking off. “They’re still human beings and they still have a breaking point.”



The national conversation about the war largely has taken place absent those who are fighting it. The military makes it hard for its members to speak independently. In a culture that prizes obedience, loyalty and duty, no one is rewarded for breaking rank. Further, the Bush administration over the past three years has sent the message that dissent is un-American.

[dolo amber]

112. Bless

:yourock:

[Steely_Dan]

115. All Tied Up - 50/50

Wow - My vote (Yes) made the tally 451=YES 450=NO - Now 50/50

-P

[darkism]

123. 51/49 No...fix it!

Yes 485 49%
No 498 51%

[aikido15]

124. And the T-shirt...

was the best! I LOVE THIS ONE! This is too good to be true! If enough soldiers refuse to go they won't be able to prosecute all of them OR continue with this stupid and criminal war. Woo Woo!

[Yuugal]

125. my gut aches

Yeah, I know, people here hate when someone starts off a post with that line, but my gut really does ache. This guys story doesn't add up to conscientious objector status IMHO. Here's my reasoning:

1)he wasn't going to Iraq. The article says he was going to be at sea in the pacific and indian ocean.

2)"""It's not just a few crazy liberals talking to the media to make money""" Uh huh. He means us crazy liberals who he agrees with? I can usually spot a ditto-head about 5 seconds after they open their ignorant piehole. This guy set off my RUSH alarm in 2 seconds.

3)"""I'm not making any money, I'm going to jail for a year for this.""" How does he know how long his penalty will be? Could it be from the only other case like this I've heard about on the MSM where the guy got a year in jail? My cynical nature is already wondering if this guy sees a book deal and the talk show circuit in his future?

4)Paredes, 23, wore a T-shirt that read: 'Like a cabinet member, I resign.' Again, my cynic-meter is bouncing off the scale. Did his press agent make the shirt for him?

Look, I know alot of you look at him and see a hero. Unfortunately all I see is a guy who wasn't asked to go fight in Iraq shirking his duty to make big bux down the line and pulling every heart-string he can on the way. I'm glad hes decided not to go, but that doesn't stop me from thinking, based on his words and deeds, that he is not a real conscientious objector. My gut tells me hes a ditto-head who didn't feel like following up on his commitments. Otherwise why would he insult the very anti-war libruls that are likely to be his biggest defenders? I'm actually hoping I'm wrong and that this article was a hatchet job on the guy designed to make us unsympathetic. My gut just keeps screaming, "Faker!"