Emergency Alert: National ID/Patriot Act 2 Legislation On Verge Of Passing

[theearthisround]

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/december2004/071204nationalid.htm

At approximately 3:30pm today, Ron Paul's press secretary Jeff Deist called Alex Jones to warn him that the legislation that encompasses the national ID card and Patriot Act 2 provisions was on the verge of passing the House tonight.

Deist stated that the bill and what it means for America could be described in a word as 'tyranny'.

Deist's tone was the most frantic that Alex had ever known in his years of communication with Ron Paul's office. Alex made it clear how upset Desit was and that the situation reminded him of a 'war room atmosphere'. Deist and Ron Paul are desperate to mobilize the alternative media before the bill reaches the Senate tomorrow.

There is still a chance that we can shoot down the national ID card provisions before the bill is passed in full.

Deist went on to exclaim his disbelief at how the so-called conservative Bush administration had betrayed America and how Paul's colleagues on Capitol Hill were blindly going along with this and doing whatever Bush tells them to do without question.

For the past two days mainstream news articles have talked of a 'compromise' which was made with the few dissenting voices and that the bill would be steamrolled through.

However, those articles fail to mention the very worst aspects of the bill, instead pitching it as a mere reformation of intelligence communication and protocol.

PLEASE CALL YOUR LOCAL CONGRESSIONAL OFFICE RIGHT NOW AND VOICE YOUR OPPOSITION TO THIS BILL.

The bill is S 2845 or 'intelligence reform' and the sub-section with the national ID card provisions is 7212.

Tell your congressman to get the federal mandates for standardized drivers licenses out of the bill.

According to Deist, the bill would not only introduce the national ID card, but make it mandatory to have a job as well as setting up internal checkpoints in the USA.


Further

Action Alert from Ron Pauls Liberty Committee
http://capwiz.com/liberty/issues/alert/?alertid=6739451&type=CO

"If you were a member of Congress, would you vote "yes" on a 3,000 page bill that you never had a chance to read? Most reasonable people wouldn't. Most reasonable people would want to read and study legislation before deciding how to vote; especially legislation as monumental as the intelligence reorganization legislation or the so-called 9/11 bill."

Further

http://www.libertythink.com/ Has the Nov 20 Draft of this Bill + analysis

http://www.libertythink.com/2004/12/exclusive-full-text-of-911-police.html

# TITLE I: Establishes superpowerful National Intelligence Director lording over integrated foreign & domestic apparatus -- Detailed anaylsis
# TITLE II: Role of FBI in domestic intelligence
# TITLE III: Attack on financial privacy, including repeal of one PATRIOT Act sunset - more
# TITLE IV Data-mining of air passengers; codifying mandatory ID for air passengers; biometrics for govt agents in aviation system; more advanced screening hardware for airports: "walk-through explosive detection portals, document scanners, shoe scanners, and backscatter x-ray scanners"
# TITLE V: Cosmetic immigration reforms
# TITLE VI: Expands definition of "terrorist" even further, allows holding of "terror suspects" without trial; more spying on international transactions
# TITLE VII: table of contents, part one, part two -- Misc. pork for foreign muslim psy-ops; Misc. homeland pork & bureaucracies; biometric borders; integratred biometric screening system with drivers' licenses as biometric national ID cards
# TITLE VIII: Homeland Security satellites, human research

[dethl]

1. Everyone get ready

to show the officers your papers.

On EDIT: How did these provisions pass through the House unoticed?

[Deja Q]

4. what if they were noticed?

[dethl]

7. We wouldn't have to be scrambling

to get the provisions out.

[genius]

55. It's almost over: Start packing everyone. Nazi gov't is here

If this passes the Senate tomorrow, it will be important for all on our side to be prepared to leave the country in order to protect their families and themselves. In Germany, those who were part of the opposition who did not leave fast enough were killed. It looks like we're in about 1939 Germany. The House members don't have enough integrity to stop it. Call Durbin first thing in the morning. He's probably our last hope.

[Deja Q]

2. Mandatory to have a job?! I'd laugh except it's too ghastly to contemplate

what they'd do to people without jobs, of which there are quite a few with the potential of many more jobless in the coming months.

[imaginary girl]

37. I think what they mean is ...

... you'd have to have the national id in order to have a job. I misread it at first, too, because it isn't well written.

[genius]

58. What about retirees? Are they going to line them up against the wall

and shoot them? What about moms who stay at home? Are they going to send the kids to training camps and arrest the moms? This is ridiculous.

[George W. Hayduke]

3. 'mandatory to have a job'???

internal checkpoints???

is this for real???

[Deja Q]

15. And what sort of jobs will * give us? He has no qualms about

letting corporate america ship 'em all out.

[shadowknows69]

56. OK, so I own my own business

what if I don't want a national ID card. Small biz owners like me should band together and say: No card needed here. Resist. If you want to work for the Gov get your papers and report to Wal-Mart. If you want to work for human beings, come work for us.

[VegasWolf]

5. Where the fuck is Harry Reid? n/t

[Rose Siding]

20. I think he went duck hunting

[VegasWolf]

22. LOL. Do you get that message I sent you?

[genius]

59. He's out dancing with Bush and Scalia.

[genius]

71. Kucinich and McDermott opposed the bill.

[elepet]

86. barbara lee

and lynn woolsey voted for it...which is strange because they usually vote with kucinich.
Senate will be interesting. can it be fillibustered?

[NVMojo]

75. He's been busy handing out pork to his favorite constituents statewide

[TexasChick]

6. With these fascists asses at the helm, this country is getting out of

control!!!

[VegasWolf]

9. Getting, honey? n/t

[TexasChick]

14. LOL! Okay, okay...we're already there!

:cry:

[54anickel]

8. Oh Man! I was afraid this sh*t was in that bill. They never gave out the

details, and it was suddenly a big deal to get through. Again, gotta ask, did they bother to read 1/2 of it?

[Newsjock]

10. Trying to find a "7212"

I've downloaded the pdf of the bill from http://thomas.loc.gov and I'm not seeing it. Still looking, though. Perhaps the first person to find the relevant text should post it here.

Edit: The closest thing I'm finding so far is language setting out minimum requirements for state drivers licenses, but that's nothing new. And it says that the law can't require specific formats for state drivers licenses. Still looking, though.

[da_chimperor]

18. Check out my post below, it has the HTML version n/t

[w13rd0]

11. Is the language of the bill available?

Anyone have a link? Remember how they were having so much trouble passing this, perhaps these provisions are the "last minute nugget" that Bushie was demanding that made all the Bushbots swallow it so eagerly.

[SmokingJacket]

12. Hello? So a REPUBLICAN is standing up for us?

Seriously, Ron Paul was the only guy who opposed the "New Freedom" Initiative, too, wasn't he?

Where are the Dems on this?

The very phrase "internal checkpoints" makes me want to start surfing those "international real estate' websites again.

WTF?

[Deja Q]

16. The Dems are too busy saying they don't want to have people like

Michael Moore being associated with them.

[bloom]

19. He's technically a Republican - but more Libertarian...eom

[VivaKerry]

13. I knew bushco would come out swinging with their mandate...

but you know what? they have hardly any opposition in the opposing party OR in the streets. Not to belittle activists out there.... but until we protest loudly, and CONTINUOUSLY... we are cooked.

[da_chimperor]

17. Here's a link to the 3 versions of the bill I could find

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:S.2845:

The ID system doesn't really look worrying to me. All the features are on my California DL, including a magnetic stripe on the back though according to this that will be changed to something else. See for your self. This is from the third listed version

(b) MINIMUM DOCUMENT REQUIREMENTS- To meet the requirements of this section, a State shall include, at a minimum, the following information and features on each driver's license and identification card issued to a person by the State:

(1) The person's full legal name.

(2) The person's date of birth.

(3) The person's gender.

(4) The person's driver license or identification card number.

(5) A digital photograph of the person.

(6) The person's address of principal residence.

(7) The person's signature.

(8) Physical security features designed to prevent tampering, counterfeiting, or duplication of the document for fraudulent purposes.

(9) A common machine-readable technology, with defined minimum data elements.

The bolded section is the only part that looks funny to me. Presumably, it refers to all other requirements being stored digitally on the card itself . . . but that may not be the case. As for the stuff on checkpoints and everyone required to have a job . . . :eyes:

Edited for spelling.

[Deja Q]

23. Let's hope the checkpoints and job thing are tinfoil, but otherwise

the ID card isn't much more than an expanded driver's license. No big deal. But I can see why people would have knee jerk reactions.

[da_chimperor]

24. Definitely tinfoil, but I'm not surprised given the poster

:tinfoil:

[ilovenicepeople]

39. Here's my knee jerk reaction.

Bye Bye America,it was good knowing you.:hi:

[WCGreen]

79. There is no consistency across the nation

as to drivers license requirements.

It's described to stop illegals from getting a job, or getting a fake driver's license and using it to purchase guns and such in a different state....

I think they would catch more drunk drivers than terrorists to be honest with you....

Is that such a bad thing....

There are worse things that could happen....

By the way, check points are now up and running in almost every city in the country.... They check for Drunk Drivers......

[mulethree]

47. Hmm does that tie into this?

"
SEC. 507. PASSENGER IDENTIFICATION VERIFICATION.

(a) PROGRAM REQUIRED- The Secretary of Homeland Security may establish and carry out a program to require the installation and use at airports in the United States of the identification verification technologies the Secretary considers appropriate to assist in the screening of passengers boarding aircraft at such airports.

(b) TECHNOLOGIES EMPLOYED- The identification verification technologies required as part of the program under subsection (a) may include identification scanners, biometrics, retinal, iris, or facial scanners, or any other technologies that the Secretary considers appropriate for purposes of the program.
"

Now your license has a picture but not any of this other stuff. Biometrics aren't worth squat unless you have a database of biometrics to match them against. Will they use a database of Terrorist retinas and thumbprints and iris's? Or would they need a record of everyone's biometrics - at least everyone who wants to fly on an airliner? (or any other technologies that the Secretary considers appropriate - shudder)


"
SEC. 1024. TRAVEL DOCUMENTS

(b) BIOMETRIC PASSPORTS
"

There is a section on better security for drivers licenses, but it is not the nasty language that was in (and passed) the house bill. This one requires the states to meet standards on tamperproof licenses and on verifying documents used to prove identity.

The house bill would have linked all the state license databases into essentially a national ID card. It would have set national standards on who could get a driver/non-driver ID ( and they would make sure no illegal immigrants could get one).

Lots of people object to national ID cards and 'travel papers'. Some states give licenses to illegal aliens. There are repubs and dems who object, so it would not pass.

They are saying they will tack this onto the first 'must-pass' legislation of the next congress.

I suspect they will try for some new sort of 'worker visa' to appease those who don't think every illegal alien should be deported. And then we will end up with a nationalized drivers license system - perhaps with 'travel document - transportation screening - biometric information'.

Then we'll see if the strong opposition is all anti-illegal-alien, or if anyone actually goes on record opposing national id cards, databases and such.

I've had Military ID's to access military bases which are much the same as a drivers license. ID/Access cards for a Swiss Bank with no more tracking than a photo and tamperproofing. But the FBI has my fingerprints because I needed security clearances to work at a wall street company.

[BansheeDem]

69. The "biometrics" could mean a fingerprint ...

My Georgia license has all of these features already (including a digitized thumbprint that is transferred to the magnetic strip on the back of the card). Not all that scary really; and it does serve to clearly identify the holder of the license. Not necessarily a bad idea. As to internal checkpoints? I don't see it in the bill, but if it is there, that would be a major concern.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

21. Suharto, Mussolini, Stalin, Hitler.....

:puke:

:grr:

[Ellen Forradalom]

25. Whoa, people

Download the text of S 2845 from thomas.loc.gov and find the provisions for the above assertions in the bill. Then post quotes here, because I can't find it.

[da_chimperor]

26. The national ID card system = standardized drivers licenses, rest is BS

See my other post, there's nothing to worry about.

[Skip Intro]

31. "nothing to worry about" - ??!

The same gang that pushed thru patriot 1 in the dead of night with no discussion (by the people who goddamn OWN this nation) are now trying to push thru the next step, in the same way.

And there's nothing to worry about?

[da_chimperor]

33. There's always stuff to worry about, I'm referring to the ID section

As far as I'm concerned, the standardized driver's licenses wouldn't change much. That's what you shouldn't worry about. My primary purpose is doing a bit of debunking on what I consider a piece of disinformation. The reputation of this poster, IMO, is one of posting articles of highly questionable validity. What you should worry about is the rest of the stuff in this bill that I don't have the time to read . . . better?

[Skip Intro]

34. Well, ok. But the ID thing alone - there can only be one reason for it -

to enable the federal government to better track the populace.

Greater control by the government over the people.

What other purpose could it possibly serve.

Plenty to worry about, imho.

[da_chimperor]

38. There are potential police-state applications for a national ID system

such as facilitating random identity checks, checkpoints, etc. Still, on it's own I think it's fairly innocent. If they were supposed to have a data storage device on them that could be read from a distance (such as they're proposing on new US passports if I remember correctly), however, I would be very worried.

California already has ID's that meet these standards, as I interpret them. If everyone else does, I don't see that as a big stretch. I don't want to belittle your concerns, I'm just trying to state that I do not see a national ID system as one of our biggest worries. Would I rather be without it, yes, but I'm more interested in seeing what other unpleasant things are in that bill.

[Skip Intro]

41. But you're assuming no "spirit of the law" bs, that the law will be static

that the parameters, the distance at which people would/could be monitored, or better put, monitorable, would remain at some safe distance. That some "protection" would still be there.

No reason to assume the parameters would remain as they were when the bill passed. Its not necessarily the specifics of the bill that passes, but the underlying theme, the crux.


If this passes, and a national ID is something we come to embrace (foolishly, imho), then precedent will have been set. If the government can have access to info that can track a person in intervals of activity, why not one that can track a person as they move, 24-7 real time - it only expedites the premise. The only leap is technology. No crime in better enforcing the "spiritl of the law."


and we'll make that devce, man

or Pakistan or India or China will

but it will be made

this is nuts

[da_chimperor]

46. I think we're thinking in two different directions

Sure, all of that is possible, but I'm basing my opinion as of what I just read, rather than potential future effects of such a system. So shall we say we disagree on the implications of a national ID system so I can go to bed? :D

[Skip Intro]

48. absolutely, but one last thing first

Go back to 2000 for a sec. Look at the world of 2004 from there.

Far-fetched paranoia in 2000, right.?

Shocked, speechlees reality 2004, right?

The direction's the worst part, imho.

Its so clear.

I can't believe you don't see it.

*sigh*

ok, sorry. Goodnight.

:D

.

[ilovenicepeople]

42. SHHHHHHHHH!! (theres people sleeping here)

:boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring:

[shadowknows69]

57. and now that were going to start giving illegal aliens ID's

they'll be able to easily travel to any state they want. I understand the thinking now...We can't afford to burden the border states with IAs anymore so lets show them the door to the north. Next stop BLUE STATES.

[Bridget Burke]

83. There are no illegal aliens in the blue states now?

Yeah, right.

[poppet]

27. The aclu

has a page devoted to PatriotII with many links, etc. You can also find contact information for congress members, etc.

http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=12126&c=207

ACLU is also hoping to have 100,000 people sign the pledge refusing to surrender our freedom by Jan. 20.

http://www.aclu.org/refusetosurrender/?orgid=EA111704A

[peacebird]

97. thanks for the link - i signed the pledge

bless the ACLU.

[peacebird]

98. thanks for the link - i signed the pledge

bless the ACLU.

[Zhade]

28. Looks like these will be in high demand soon...

http://www.turbulence.org/Works/swipe/barcode.html

[goodboy]

29. Welcome to the Divided Fascist Theocracy once called America.

[Freddie Stubbs]

Bill passed: 67 Republicans and 8 Democrats vote NO

http://clerk.house.gov/cgi-bin/vote.asp?year=2004&rollnumber=544

[Zorra]

64. Kucinich voted No. That means it is a bad bill for sure. DK knows what

he is doing.

[Nikepallas]

30. Before I Start Screaming and running around like my head on fire

These National IDs will they take the place of Driver License? Will we need to get them like as soon as a child enters school?

Will the Magnetic strip contain more info on us then what we are aware of?

[Massacure]

32. magnetic strips are erased when you put a magnet over them

Wouldn't that erase them everytime you walked through a airport screener?

[Liberal Chad from WI]

35. ITS NEVER ENOUGH

the government just cant get enough info on us can they and where do they plan on finding these jobs? they must plan on us all moving overseas because that's where the jobs are.

[Skip Intro]

36. Why does a nation of free people need a national ID card?

Has everyone gone mad?

The only reason for a national ID card would be to help the government better track the public.

Better control the public. What they can do. Where they can go. Depending on who they are.

These new laws won't just sit there. They'll grow, they'll be expanded. Just the base has to be passed by Congress. The most freedom-hating congress I've ever seen.

Government over the public, who supposedly run thr government.

Freedom is worth killin for. Worth dying for.

And Americans love, above all but family and God, our trademark freedom.

our myth of freedom

[imaginary girl]

40. Illegal immigrant control?

I wonder if this has any connection to immigration? I know that was an issue to some of the holdouts on the bill. Is it possible that having the primary residence as a requirement would be a way of denying migrant workers? Just a thought ....

[woodsprite]

43. Are you kidding?

They're not gonna control the illegals, just us Duhmericans. My other browser is open to the international real estate listings. I know we need to wait to see what tomorrow brings, but it sure doesn't sound promising from what's come down the pike tonight.

I'm hitting the sack.

Signed,

Depressed and blue in DE :(

[imaginary girl]

51. Wonderful name, Woodsprite!

Welcome to DU!

[TolstoyAndy]

62. welcome woodsprite and imaginary girl!

:thumbsup:

Wish it was under better circumstances!

[Skip Intro]

44. How about legal resident control?

Think big.

[ilovenicepeople]

45. Illegal immigrants are exempt from the ID card (I do believe?)

The borders are wide open.

[Indy_OK]

50. National ID

Isn't this the section that Tweety has been upset about that was removed in conference. He has devoted about 15 minutes a day about the fact that 'anybody' can get a driver's license even if they are not citizens.

[proReality]

49. Ron Paul's press release dated today

Paul Denounces National ID Card

December 7, 2004

http://www.house.gov/paul/press/press2004/pr120704.htm

[rodeodance]

52. but this provision was taken out -the Stensenbrenner section

that dealt with national drivers licenses--which amount to a national ID to for all!!

[slaveplanet]

53. Well it looks as if Dr Paul

is certainly referring to internal checkpoints

[mrbassman03]

54. WTF is human research???

Anyone?

[villagechild]

60. Human Research

Why, That would be "TITLE VIII" of course!! MORE OF THE SAME?! A History Of US Secret Human Experimentation http://www.jrbooksonline.com/HTML-docs/A%20History%20Of%20US%20Secret%20Human%20Experimentation.htm

[complain jane]

61. "Human Research" and "Cosmetic immigration reforms"?

WTF is "cosmetic immigration reforms"? We're gonna cosmetically adjust all immigrants now?

[complain jane]

63. HOLY.FUCKING.SHIT

[bain_sidhe]

65. PLS NOTE! The bill on Thomas is probably not the bill

that passed today. The bill that passed today was a "reconcilliation bill" - so named because it used to be that these conferences were meant to reconcile the differences between what passed the House and what passed the Senate. Since the puKKKlicans took over, the "conference" (often with no Dems allowed to participate, or only "friendly" DINOs participating) has often totally rewrote the bill, then brought it out for an up-or-down vote, often the same day.

What you see on Thomas may not be what we're getting. Thomas usually doesn't get the new versions up for at least a few days.

[HR_Pufnstuf]

66. Dean/Paul '08

The doctors are in.

[Nikepallas]

67. Some of the sites given seem to either have crashed or I can't load

So does this new law mean my husband will have to get a pass to go to his nightly job?


And Checkpoints? From state to state?

[LynnTheDem]

68. The terrorists won. Boy howdy did they win. BIG time.

Big huge fucking win.

And boy howdy did We the People ever lose.

[Swamp Rat]

70. Bush is helping Bin Laden win.

He's a terrorist appeaser.

[Nikepallas]

72. Here is a new spin on this bill - - How soon will they close down AAR

because it could be considered a terrorist friendly media. God I hope I did not jinks them but I'm beginning to wonder?

Also will we be matching in the street much like Ukraine did? When people really see the damage done by this law?

[Runcible Spoon]

73. maybe I'm defeatist...

maybe it's just 2:30 am, but at this point let the shit rain down. Why should we fucking put forth all this time, effort, money into doing damage control of this misadministration's apocalyptic policies so that the fucking ignorant assholes who voted for this shit don't get burnt. I say let the American populace experience full force teh wrath of Bush's "mandate". Fuck it. Outlaw abortion. Make ID portfolios of everyone. Draft this (my) generation into wars. Racial profile. Big Brother the internet. Throw away Social Security. Give tax cuts to the multinationals, better yet no-bid contracts. Invade a few more countries with oil and brown people. Dissolve the welfare system, make 'em pledge allegiance to *'s wratheful, jealous God to get a hot meal. Put gays, atheists, feminists, environmentalists, and Muslims in internment "re-education" camps. Ban all controversial textbooks and teach Creationism from Jack Chick tracts. Outsource all jobs until only soldiers, maids, Hummer dealers, lumber outfits, waiters, and upper management exist. You get the idea. Let it all fucking fall down and maybe a phoenix of justice and equality will arise from the ashes.
/sleep-depreived melodramatics off

[mikehiggins]

74. Nah, you're a realist

The game is over and we lost.

Now the other team gets to do whatever the fuck they want and our good old Dems just line up to sip the Kool-Aid. Maybe they think that is how they can keep their jobs? Who knows?

Everything you talk about in your post is coming down the road like a herd of wild elephants, and the dollar is sinking like the Titanic. This country gets the government it deserves. I just thought we were better than this.

[Runcible Spoon]

76. alas, some of us are better than this....

but now we are toothless fish in a barrel. So it will come down to brutal social Darwinism. You can't believe how many of my friends and family were absolutely shocked when I told them I was getting handgun certified! "what? YOU the pacifist, who doens't eat red meat?" I've given everything I can. The only thing I care about today, politically, is whether or not the wild horses are going to be killed. Go figure. Gonna try to find my humanity and compassion tomorrow.....

[neweurope]

77. Get out get out get out

Get out.

I‘ve been reading here for some time. For the last week or so I‘ve copied the most important headlines of the day. It makes me want to scream.

A lot of the proposed bills, government decisions etc. don‘t look all too dangerous. A new law in Michigan or wherever, a Bill in Florida... But if you see all these little points as an entity, if you combine them, you see that you‘re beeing fenced in. And that more rapidly than I would have thought possible.

PATRIOT I is terrible enough. Most people haven‘t realized that yet I think. Mainly because the authorities have been treading lightly so far. Now they have that stolen „mandate“. And I fear they‘ll be using all of it.

AND now you have „New Freedom“ and „PATRIOT II“ (by the way – you all see the Orwellian language?)

Some points:
- „Establishes superpowerful National Intelligence Director lording over integrated foreign & domestic apparatus“:
That‘s the most important thing for every dictator that‘s ever been. And before long that director will swear alligiance only to the President. (That uniforms will show the "skull and bones" is just a guess).

- „human research“:
Your country already has an infamous history concerning human research. Mine too, in the years 1933-1945. Anybody paying attention?

- Expands definition of "terrorist" even further:
It stands to reason that many people on this board therefore will be declared „terrorists“ in the near future.

- Homeland Security satellites:
Some intelligent but misguided Canadian just has developed some stuff that allows you to literally zoom into everybodys backyard. One can read the licence plates (but so far not recognize faces). Scares the shit out of me. My government will only be too glad to use that. Yours will be, too.

- „a lot of new stuff about air ports“.
Dissidents – „terrorists“ - will have a hard time to get out of the country. Fleeing to Canada by car/rail useless since – as I‘ve read here – US-authorities can make arrests of US-citizens in Canada now. Mexico, too, by the way?

Ron Paul, who is either a figleaf for the government or a very valiant man, writes:
„The 9-11 commission, whose recommendations underlie this bill, has called for INTERNAL SCREENING POINTS where identification will be demanded. Domestic travel restrictions are the hallmark of authoritarian states, not free nations.“
So you won‘t be able to get OUT of your country unless you do it real quick. And within the borders of your country you‘ll be watched every step on the way.

- Integratred biometric screening system with drivers' licenses as biometric national ID cards:
That makes only sense with a biometric databank. They‘re trying it out in Fallujah, remember.

But maybe that will not worry you overly much. After all you‘ll be blessed with obligatory mental health screening.
Since everybody must get depressions over this – and depressions seem to fall into the category mental illness -, and since obligatory medication will follow the mental screening, you‘ll probably walk around in a daze all day long anyway.

Of course they will combine the results of biometric screening with the mental health screening, the fact that your place of residence is at every time known to the authorities – it hardly needs the RFD-chips whose use on humans has just been allowed. Et voilá! How can anybody NOT see this?

Karl Rove must go to bed with a big fat smile every night.

Get out.

„Chimperor: Nothing to worry about... I'm basing my opinion as of what I just read, rather than potential future effects of such a system.“
I‘m flabbergasted (I hope that‘s the word). With EVERY new development – not only in politics - one has to check and recheck the potential future effects! And you‘ll agree that the Bushistas aren‘t NICE people, don‘t you?

„Hypnotoad:“ Let's hope the checkpoints and job thing are tinfoil - the ID card isn't much more than an expanded driver's license. No big deal.“
Hm yes. At first the yellow stars were only a cosmetic nuisance...

And Ron Paul has already given the answers.

„Mulethree: Will they use a database of Terrorist retinas and thumbprints and iris's?“
Asking that question means one has already fallen for their lies. Terrorists? Erm well yes. Most of you – at least if you will continue to dissent – will be declared terrorists, for Chrissake.

„Skip Intro: But you're assuming no "spirit of the law" bs, that the law will be static.“
Exactly. As we have seen in the last four years the law is far from static.

„Bill passed: 67 Republicans and 8 Democrats vote NO“
(yes I‘ve read that this is probably not the final bill. Anybody willing to bet that what you will get will be better??!)
More Republicans than Democrats voted no. To me as an outsider it looks as if the Democrats see how the wind‘s blowing and are sidling up to the Bushistas in order to save their own hide once the shit hits the fan. Sorry if I hurt somebody‘s feelings but for me that‘s the only explanation.

I started reading here after 9/11 and came back here after the „election“ – because on the Democrat-Homepage there was nothing but a big gaping hole. And a big gaping hole on the side of the Democratic party is pretty much all I‘ve seen ever since. The opposition seems to be all on the side of the Republicans. I would‘t put any faith in the party anymore. Only in myself, my friends and people like those on this board.

„VivaKerry: they have hardly any opposition in the opposing party OR in the streets. Not to belittle activists out there.... but until we protest loudly, and CONTINUOUSLY... we are cooked.“

Yes. Loudly, continously – and AT ONCE.

On the streets, in the newspapers, with movies, theater, letters to the editor, daily calls to your representatives, pickets in front of the supermarket, appeals to rich Liberals, GIVING INTERVIEWS TO THE BIG FOREIGN MAGAZINES AND NEWSPAPERS all of which have correspondents in your country, alliances with every group that sees this for what it is, bumper stickers, air-balloons... And don't forget to very quickly form groups of computer-specialists...

AT ONCE or everything will be too late.

I feel terrible. Mainly because I think it is already too late. Rove has been preparing this for years. The plan seems to be just too big to be battled spontanously.

Everybody always wonders why the Jews didn‘t get out of Germany in time.
Well, if I were an American right now and considered leaving my country... Where would I go? Do I even speak a foreign language? Which country would even take me in... How could I earn money and feed my kids? Health care, schooling etc. etc. etc.

The Jews faced the same questions. And couldn‘t come up with answers. And therefore against their own better knowledge decided to stay and talk themselves into believing „Nothing to worry about... I'm basing my opinion as of what I just read, rather than potential future effects of such a system.“

I fear for all of you.

Get out.Get out.
Get out now.

[Runcible Spoon]

78. got a couch I can crash on?

I make good omelettes!

[neweurope]

80. Only one.

I love omelettes, by the way. And horses :)

[Runcible Spoon]

87. awww!

Ich kann eine bischen Deutsch sprechen. Ich liebe Pferfen auch. Ich habe drei.

[neweurope]

92. Wir haben zwei :)

Compliments on your German :)

[George W. Hayduke]

81. fuck that

im stayin for the fight. if i go down it won't be before i take some fascist mutherfuckers with me.

[da_chimperor]

82. You took my remark out of context/ID card system comes from 9/11 commissio

I'm referring simply to a national ID system, and you can waste a lifetime considering ALL the potential effects of a piece of legislation. Example: 'money for genetics research? Oh no! We should oppose it because it IS possible it could be used by the government to make a half-man, half-shark monster than could be used as a weapon against political dissidents!' Frankly, I don't think anyone here knows enough about this system to definitively say whether it will be harmless or bad, myself included. That's why I said I was making my judgment based on what I knew.

Oh, and the ID card system was directly proposed by the 9/11 commission.

http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch12.htm

"Recommendation: Secure identification should begin in the United States. The federal government should set standards for the issuance of birth certificates and sources of identification, such as drivers licenses. Fraud in identification documents is no longer just a problem of theft. At many entry points to vulnerable facilities, including gates for boarding aircraft, sources of identification are the last opportunity to ensure that people are who they say they are and to check whether they are terrorists."

[neweurope]

85. Sorry.... but...

Didn't mean to take you out of context. I'm kinda nervous...

"I don't think anyone here knows enough about this system to definitively say whether it will be harmless of bad,"

That is certainly true. And I being a foreigner know less than you all. But I DO know that a certain technique/system is never good or bad. The people who use them are good or bad, though. The Bushistas don't seem to be good, and so I'd absolutely refuse to give them anything which could turn out to be a dangerous weapon directed at me.

"Oh, and the ID card system was directly proposed by the 9/11 commission." 1) Does this make anything better? 2)I seem to remember that some people weren't all too happy regarding the members of that commission.

Dear Chimperor - maybe I'm wrong with some of my points. Maybe I'm wrong with all of them; believe me, I wish you all the best. In case I'll be proven wrong I'll gladly open a bottle of champagne four years from now. And laugh about my fears.

But I very much fear it's Rove and Cheney who are opening the bottles. With a big, fat smile...

[da_chimperor]

89. I understand your concerns

I hate bush, and I don't trust him. I'm immediately suspicious of anything he proposes. If I was going out to dinner with him, I'd believe that every suggestion he made would be because he had agents planted at the suggested restaurant ready to poison my meal.

The 9/11 commission is better than bush, so I'm viewing this proposal semi-neutrally. The commission isn't perfect, but it's a damn sight better than the bush administration. I hope that everything works out in the end, but for the time being we just have to keep fighting, hope for the best, and prepare for the worst.

[housewolf]

84. Blame the 911 Commissioin and the 911 Families

This is the bill that was proposed by the 911 Commission and promoted by the 911 families. In a sense, it is an example of citizen activism in action - the 911 families have pushed this bill and lobbied Congress heavily to get this thing passed. If it hadn't been for their efforts, the bill would have died because of the huge differences (incompatible) between the House and Senate versions.

In the end, many of the draconian anti-immigration provisions (the Sensenbrenner provisions) had to be dropped from the bill in order to come to a compromise so it could be passed this week.

[neweurope]

88. So Pres. Rove got exactly what he wanted, no?

He doesn't oppose immigration. And he gets control over his own population.

And it's the result that counts.

Minus some cosmetics PATRIOT I & II - I'm absolutely convinced of that - were prepared before the "new Pearl Harbour"...

Don't beat me. I'm just SCARED. Scared for all of you. And scared for me. Because we over here won't stay unhurt. In fact: Some of our laws are already being changed 1) because every government likes to control its citizens if it gets half a chance and 2) because of PRESSURE BY THE US-GOVERNMENT.

And because we folks here don't fall so easily for all of those alleged "terrorist threats" I very much fear that the Madrid station won't be the only one that gets hit. Frankfurt train station is rather large, too...

AND I'm very much afraid of war. When I read PNAC, then look at a map and study where all there are US-Military-bases - when I consider Chinese and Russian policy - I shiver.

edit: grammar

[robre]

90. "We've Got A Bigger Problem Now"

Last call for alcohol.
Last call for your freedom of speech.
Drink up. Happy hour is now enforced by law.
Don't forget our house special, it's called a Trickie Dickie Screwdriver.
It's got one part Jack Daniels, two parts purple Kool-Aid,
and a jigger of formaldehyde
from the jar with Hitler's brain in it we got in the back storeroom.
Happy trails to you. Happy trails to you.

I am Emperor Ronald Reagan
Born again with fascist cravings
Still, you made me president

Human rights will soon go 'way
I am now your Shah today
Now I command all of you
Now you're going to pray in school
I'll make sure they're Christian too

California Uber alles
Uber alles California

Ku Klux Klan will control you
Still you think it's natural
Nigger knockin' for the master race
Still you wear the happy face

You closed your eyes, can't happen here
Alexander Haig is near
Vietnam won't come back you say
Join the army or you will pay

California Uber alles
Uber alles California

Yeah, that's it. Just relax.
Have another drink, few more pretzels, little more MSG.
Turn on those Dallas Cowboys on your TV.
Lock your doors. Close your mind.
It's time for the two-minute warning.

Welcome to 1984
Are you ready for the third world war?!?
You too will meet the secret police
They'll draft you and they'll jail your niece

You'll go quitely to boot camp
They'll shoot you dead, make you a man
Don't you worry, it's for a cause
Feeding global corporations' claws

Die on our brand new poison gas
El Salvador or Afghanistan
Making money for President Reagan
And all the friends of President Reagan

California Uber alles
Uber alles California

---

For some reason I think this song applies even more now than it did then.

[The Animator]

91. Anyone else catch the irony in this little nugget?

# TITLE VII: table of contents, part one, part two -- Misc. pork for foreign muslim psy-ops...

Don't they realize muslims don't eat pork?

But seriously, as mundane as some of these changes may sound, I cannot simply disregaurd the potential misuse of these changes. Given our past experiences with ShrubCo, I can safely assume that if they posses a power that can be abused, they will abuse it.

If you must have a national I.D. in order to have a job, this could cause some serious problems. Civil libertarians who would normally take a principled stand on such an issue could be either eliminated from the workforce, or forced into capitulation through threat of job loss, capitulation would be all too easy when you have a family to support.

Some more questions along those lines, if you currently have a job, and you don't get your national I.D. before the deadline, will you be fired? Could you lose your job if you allow your I.D. to expire, would there be a renewal fee? If you are an employer, and you don't require your employees to have national I.D.s, are you helping the terrorists win? Most importantly, if you need to have a national I.D. in order to have a job in this country, the fee for getting the I.D. would be a work related expense, so would that be tax deductable?

On a side note, I suppose those lucky individuals who are independantly wealthy and don't have to work for a living won't be required to have one since being rich isn't really considered a job.

What if the national I.D. system is used in conjunction with the internal checkpoint system?

It is rather disconcerting to know that if the F.B.I. took an interest in you, (perhaps because of some of your more "aggresive" posts on this site.) they could know if and when you crossed state lines on your vacation, or worse, what if you are no longer allowed to cross state lines without one?

[robre]

93. The Road to Serfdom

http://www.mises.org/TRTS.htm

[neweurope]

94. Don't worry, Pres. Rove will have all the answers for you.

"What if the national I.D. system is used in conjunction with the internal checkpoint system?"

Internal checkpoints make absolutely no sense without the ID-system. You bet they'll be used in conjunction.

All of the above will be used in conjunction.

Coupling the ID with the jobs was indeed a masterstroke. Pres. Rove will have many more masterstrokes. That man is a genius. A dark evil terrible one.

edit: spelling

[Pachamama]

95. This is unreal....They haven't even coronated the little King and yet they

are pushing full stride ahead their fascist agenda, virtually unopposed...I realize there were hold ups in the house and Senate the last several days, was this one of the reasons? Why aren't there more Dems (and Republicans) concerned about this? Why aren't the American public outraged?

Oh, never mind...they aren't even concerned that the election may have been a fraud....

We are so fucked.... :scared:

[Delphinus]

96. Agreed, Pachamama

we are so fucked. :cry:

[countryjake]

99. Isn't anyone a bit disturbed that they will now have ALL our fingerprints?

After years of filling out my taxes wearing rubber gloves & using a sponge to lick the stamp, I'll be damned if they're gonna just print me for that database. You all are aware that prints are transferable to any "crime scenes", if the notion so strikes them or if they find you even slightly "undesirable" or perhaps too much of a rabble rouser. By broadening the definition of "terrorist" & collecting our "biometric" information, they now have everything in place to ensure the elimination & imprisonment of "suspected" threats to Homeland Security. This, combined with the Patriot Act which makes it possible to search & detain, with no explanation or representation, opens a wide door to that "Homeland Gitmo".

Now, just stating that one doesn't support their fucking troops will place you in that nasty "insurgent sympathizer" category! Get out is right...hit the streets & let them know...Secure our Liberty!

[Walt Starr]

100. Simply choose not to participate

I won't. Who wants to join me?

[Moderator]

101. Sorry to lock such a long thread

But prisonplanet is not a suitable source for LBN.