Study: PCs make kids dumber

[Moloch]

Students who use computers frequently at school perform worse than their peers at maths and reading.

Those using computers several times a week performed "sizeably and statistically significantly worse" than those who used them less often.

Thomas Fuchs and Ludger Woessmann of the CESifo economic research organisation in Munich base their conclusions on an analysis of test performance and background data from the 2000 PISA study. This study involved tens of thousands of students in 31 countries, including the UK, organised by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD).

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/12/07/pcs_make_kids_dumber/

[Rabrrrrrr]

1. Well, that doesn't surprise me

Computers don't help education. They remove the need to think and to learn. Egads, I've seen some awful "pedagogy" done with computers, I cringe.

And I'm a total computer geek.

But I wish they'd get them the hell out of schools. Why do seven year olds need to learn how to make Powerpoint presentations? Why not just teach them how to make presentations, instead of wasting 85% of the time teaching them how to use some shitty software that won't exist by the time they finish college?

ARGH!! I could go on. But I won't.

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. They can help improve problem solving skills

But I am with you on the shitty software. I can still remember when my 21 year old was in 5th grade, his teacher asked if he could stay after school for 5 or 6 days to learn a computer program for a special presentation on Parent Night. The kid spent hours learning this program, and his presentation went well. But it took him longer to enter the codes he had to memorize to access the program than it took to run the program once he had opened it. And of course today, 12 years later, that knowledge does him no good.

[Rabrrrrrr]

7. And he could have learned a lot more, and had more fun,

hand drawing and making all the stuff, no doubt.

[kostya]

33. undoubtedly, though, your 21 year old did learn something...

a lesson in life perhaps?

[Nevernose]

14. Computers don't HURT education, either.

Computers are just another tool that teachers have to make education relevant and effective. Calculators were supposed to destroy our ability to perform math, and before that slide rules. There was a hue and cry about the printing press that went on for well over a century, fueled by people genuinely concerned that the underclass would actually be harmed by ideas that were too difficult for their minds to handle; the first children's book was written 250 years ago, and some conservative educators are still shocked that most teachers use Young Adult literature in their classrooms.

The Progressive philosophy of education states that the world changes, slowly, and teachers must accept this and change with it. John Dewey came up with this radical notion 80 years ago.

Computers are just another tool. Whether they are used effectively or not remains up to the teachers using them, and the training these teachers receive. I have seen computers used to great effect in English classrooms, really turning students around. I was so impressed with some of the results I've seen that I'm still considering getting my Master's in Education Technology.

To be fair, though, they are not an easy tool to use. Not many teachers really understand how to make them work as an instrument of pedagogy, and it is popular to inundate kids with technology at too young an age (my daughter's eight -- does she really need a typing class?). In fact, I could sit here and type a thousand things I've seen classes doing with a computer that I don't approve of -- but this does not change the fact that the tool is not at fault, the user is.

[depakid]

15. Thank you for that

The voice of reason has grown all to rare around here of late.

Also- for the John Dewey reference: :yourock:

[American Tragedy]

20. I agree with you

Personally, I have found computers and especially the internet to be virtually irreplaceable as an educational tool. I can't speak for all students, but I know without a doubt that it has helped me to compile and assimilate overwhelming amounts of information.

[llmart]

37. However, do not ever forget that information........

is not the same thing as knowledge. We are a society that has access to a vast amount of information but little knowledge or common sense or wisdom. That you cannot get from computers. Back when I came of age in the 60's, if you had a college degree from a liberal arts college you were very well-rounded and worldly. Now everyone pooh-poohs the liberal arts degree program as "worthless" and you are supposed to specialize. Some of the most intelligent, knowledgeable and interesting people I know are those that went to college in the 60's and received a liberal arts education.

[OKNancy]

2. LOL the writer of this needs help too

"Fuchs and Woessmann found that students performed more badly in schools with a significant lack of computers."

[Brundle_Fly]

3. might be acceptable

english in england.

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. I wondered if it had been

translated from another language.

[Nevernose]

12. There is a special word for "more badly," even in England.

It's "worse."

[Journeyman]

18. I thought the acceptable phrase these days is. . .

"double plus un-good"

[shanti]

22. ding ding ding!

you won the prize~! :)

[Eloriel]

4. I can tell you one reason --

sorry, haven't read the article and probably won't.

It has to do with left brain/right brain stimulation and coordination, which both the computer and the TV don't accomplish for children. They also need 3-D eye activities (regular, old-fashioned play) instead of the passive activities in 2-D of TV and computers.

Children crawl first as an extremely important part of their development -- left brain/right brain coordination. Anyone, child or adult, can improve the coordination between the two hemispheres by doing what are called "cross-crawls" -- marching in place touching one hand to the lifted knee on the opposite side. It simualtes crawling, that essential left brain/right brain coordination-producing activity of infants. There are many other things which also augment the coordination of the two hemispheres, including learning to play a musical instrument, and many other things including any physical activity which uses arms and legs alternatley esp. when there's some crossing the midline of the body.

[Kali]

17. that's interesting

I must need to do that - I am a total doofus, the only physical thing I was ever good at was riding a bike or a horse and in general there is no crossing the midline on either of those. Interesting.

Did try the guitar at one time but seem to have no musical abilities either. Could that be related? Have above average IQ and read voraciously and fast, have some creative thinking ability but not "artistic" type creativity, per se.

[AndyTiedye]

24. Dancing Sure Seemed to Help My Coordination

[TahitiNut]

8. Next Study: Computers make management dumber, too.

Business has gotten faster ... not better. A human being can make a single mistake, correct it, learn, and go forward wiser. A computer merely performs those mistakes very fast and, later, takes the blame from those who will not learn.

[Dem2theMax]

9. "PCs make kids dumber"

Only if they hang out on repuke web sites. :evilgrin:

[LeftHander]

27. Macs make them smarter....

wink

[PBR me]

46. i agree

<-----

[Pale_Rider]

10. I know with our kids ...

... that they don't their homework spending way too much time on game sites. So their use is now strictly monitored. Missing homework translate into lost computer privileges.

[Maple]

11. Biggest advance in education

in 5000 years. We just need to learn how to use it properly.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

13. I agree...

The same goes for TV viewing and video games.

The problems are with content and lack of discipline with regard to moderation.

It's up to parents to set time limits on these activities. It's the responsibility of software manufacturers to develop and market games that will stimulate the brain more and the glands less.

[MidwestTransplant]

16. Fox News makes people dumber

[JohnOneillsMemory]

30. Fascism makes people dumber. Mostly television. n/t

[AndyTiedye]

19. What Were They Testing?

What, exactly, were they testing when they tested "maths and reading"?
If they were testing the ability to do arithmetic by hand or in your head, it might be expected
that those who had become accustomed to relying on the computer to do calculations might not
be as practiced at traditional arithmetic. That said, the ability to do traditional arithmetic is
not as valuable today as it was in the past, and certainly less valuable than the ability to use computers.
I am VERY good at doing arithmetic in my head, but that ability is of very little practical use in today's
world. It is my ability to use and program computers that makes me a living.

Those who are used to reading from computer screens all the time might be slower at reading printed
material than those who do most of their reading from the printed page. People need to be used to
both these days, which may slightly compromise reading speed on traditional printed matter.

It is also possible that some of the kids may need glasses. Books are read much closer than computer
screens, and the font size of a book cannot be adjusted to improve readability.

It is likely that most of those they tested who spend a lot of time on school computers don't have
computers at home, so you'd need to control for affluence/lack-thereof on that as was done on
the other parts of the study. Those who occasionally use the school computers do most of their
computer work at home, while most of those who never use school computers may not be
computer-literate at all.

It is also possible that some who spend a lot of time on school computers are just downloading
mp3s or otherwise goofing off.

[daleo]

25. The PISA tests are quite comprehensive, test many cognitive domains

I have to keep up on this PISA stuff for my job (our university is interested in how well students do in different provinces, to try to get a sense of how comparable high school grading is in Canada). There are sample questions on the OECD site, which give a sense of this. It is not just rote calculation, there are also word problems, tests of logic and reasoning, etc. In fact, I think the entire test instrument is available on the OECD site. The reading tests are similar - they go from being able to interpret simple instructions to critically evaluating literary works.

The PISA tests for 2003 just came out yesterday, so it will be interesting to see if these results are reproducible.

[shanti]

21. up is down, black is white

nothing to see here, folks...move right along.

[latteromden]

23. What? I'm a high school student, raised on

...computers and computer programming (and computer classes at school, as well), and I'm a straight A student, with an IQ of 140-150, an SAT score of 1100, and a ridiculously good grasp of politics for someone my age. I have, ah, upwards of eight computers in my house, I spend a good chunk of my time online, and my math grades are just fine, thanks.

I would attribute a lot of my knowledge TO the computer usage, in fact. Unfortunately, I can see where that would be the exception to the rule.

[rogerashton]

26. You ain't average!

I have a feeling that average isn't very meaningful, here, though. My notion is that the student who uses computers productively can gain a very great deal, as you have, while those who use them for entertainment and games, in some cases, lose out on a lot. Averaging, the losses might offset the gains so that "computers hurt education" on the whole. But it puts the problem in a different context -- how can we realize the potential in more cases?

As several posters have said, productive use of computers in education is difficult. I have taught a few courses online -- and I'm pretty proud of what I have done, but it was harder work than in-class teaching, and demanded much more creativity to make it work equally well.

[RobinA]

29. You Are an A Student

You have an IQ of 140-150 and your SAT score is 1100? Dude...turn off the computer and read a book, you might improve those SAT scores. If this info is true, you perfectly illustrate the point of the original poster.

[latteromden]

38. I thought that 1100 was GOOD for

my age?! That's my latest score, from when I took the SAT last year, actually - I'm a freshman in high school now, so that would be 8th grade. It was the day before I turned fourteen, actually. The other people that I know that participated in the program (it offered a chance to take the SATs in 7th and 8th grade, and the ACT in 9th) got 900-1000.

Considering the highest score for the SAT is 1600, and the average score for high school graduates in 2003 was 1026, I thought I was on the right track.

[baba]

42. It IS good!

Don't listen to them-1100 is an excellent score. I take it you participated in the Johns Hopkins program for middle school kids to take SAT's? I did that in 7th grade as well. I can't remember my score though....too long ago!

;-)

[Chovexani]

47. You were a CTY kid?

Me too! I was in the writing program from 1994-1996. I was even in the catalog, hee! :hi:

Don't listen to this luddite bullshit. Like someone else said upthread, computers are just another tool.

[baba]

41. SAT score and IQ don't necessarily correlate.

I have a high IQ, but I also have a math learning disability, so my SAT score was very lopsided-very high verbal, below average math, resulting in a score in the 1200's. A lot of very smart kids don't get extremely high SAT scores. That said, this kid is a freshman-1100 is excellent for his age group!

[greymattermom]

31. sat

Your SAT is too low for your IQ.

[jwcomer]

32. not necessarily

The student didn't say what year in high school.

Besides, SAT scores are largely dependent on whether one studies to the test. Some people consider that to be gaming the test so don't study as a matter of principle. Others get drunk the night before. Some people are bad about keeping track of those little ovals and skip one by accident, that can really screw a score bad. Some people get anxiety attacks and/or just suck at standardized tests. Etc. There are a lot of plausible reasons for the lowish SAT score.

[latteromden]

34. High school... freshman. (n/t)

[DrDan]

28. well, Paul Harvey was discussing this the other day

His advice was to ask anyone in business their feeling toward these conclusions.

They will debunk this obviously liberal, left-leaning, pinko study whose sole purpose is to bolster academic agendas.

[KamaAina]

35. Only if they use them to read Frei Republik

That;ll dumb you down in no time :evilgrin:

[Voltaire99]

36. Excellent: these kids will be well-prepared for the Wal-Mart future

Why raise a generation of better-educated kids if the crumbling middle class has no place for them?

Point-and-click, me buckos, point-and-click.

[GrrrlRomeo]

39. Windows makes kids dumber

When I was a kid we had a PC with DOS. (Not from an affluent family, my parents qualified for a credit card and it was charge city.) If anything it gave me an advantage. Windows, on the other hand, doesn't take too much brain power to learn. My Mom uses Windows all day at work, and I still have to help her find files using My Computer.

[Solon]

44. Oh I agree, editing Autoexec.bat files and Config.sys so I could use...

my new fancy SB16 soundcard on DOOM was fun, and educational at the same time, nowadays, you could be dumb as a rock and build a computer, for crying out loud, there COLOR CODED. Also enjoyed playing with the Apple IIc at home as well, ah monochrome really takes me back.

Hell, I got so sick of Windoze I'm on linux now, LOVE IT, and the best part is, its FREE!

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

40. Yes, that's right. Dissuade use of computers and the Internet...

...we wouldn't want people to get their news and information from unvarnished sources, would we?

Internet & computers = BAD
Corporate media = GOOD

Fuckers...

JB

[JoFerret]

43. That's because the computers are used

in service of behaviorist teaching practices. A bad teacher with traditional pedagogy will do the bad stuff more efficiently.
Computers used to to support a constructivist pedagogy take the sage off the stage and free information from the cultural detention center of the textbook.

[Kellanved]

45. the study is BS

The writers did probably spend too much time in front of the screens...

It is pretty simple: Videogames are a common time waster; children not in school tend to use a major part of their time in front of a computer.
The true finding is: all-day school is superior to homeschooling/half-day school, but a conservative institute, like the CESifo, never sees the obvious, when it is in conflict with conservative educational ideals.

[VegasWolf]

48. It's due to the loss of all that vital fluid while surfing the internet.

[progressoid]

49. the computer makes my kids grades more gooder...

Realistically, I think students who already have above average skills are benefiting from computer use. Used properly, it is a useful tool. Those with below average skills tend to use the computer as a crutch.

[CanSocDem]

50. Musical training may be better.

I remember a study a couple of years ago that compared students raised with computers and those raised playing a musical instrument. I remember the musical students scoring higher....

A quick google produced this article:

http://www.education-world.com/a_curr/curr123.shtml

"Music training conditions the brain to do tasks similar to those it has to do when working on math problems, Gardiner told Teacher magazine last May. "In the case of singing on pitch, pitch has a pitch line of its own," he explained. "'Do' is less than 're.' And 're' is less than 'mi.'" Developing skills such as those can help students understand mathematical concepts such as number lines.
................

Additional studies with adults highlight the benefits to music instruction. For example, researchers using magnetic brain imaging technology at the University of Munster in Germany found that the auditory cortex of the brain (the area where sound is processed) can be as much as 25 percent larger in musicians than in those who have no musical training.
...................

At a meeting of the Society for Neuroscience, Dr. Lawrence Parsons (University of Texas-San Antonio) shared results of his research which employed magnetic imaging technology to examine the brains of expert musicians. The research showed more clearly than ever that significantly more of the brain is used during music making than previously thought.

At the risk of sounding like my 57 year old ego can't handle being clued in by a 13 year old, I sometimes think that kids are using them at too young an age. There are too many 'quick solutions' available on the computer. I see it here at DU quite often.

I'm not quite sure how, but I see a connection from this story to your recent....umm...election and how people with computer savvy expect a "result", which led to ideological divisions to begin with and a startling reliance on the science of mathematics to end it all.

But as was mentioned earlier, the value of electronic communication in the hands of the working class, is priceless.
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