Troops Put Tough Questions to Rumsfeld

[maddezmom]

~snip~
Army Spc. Thomas Wilson, for example, of the 278th Regimental Combat Team that is comprised mainly of citizen soldiers of the Tennessee Army National Guard, asked Rumsfeld in a question-and-answer session why vehicle armor is still in short supply, nearly three years after the war in Iraq.


b]"Why do we soldiers have to dig through local landfills for pieces of scrap metal and compromised ballistic glass to uparmor our vehicles?" Wilson asked. A big cheer arose from the approximately 2,300 soldiers in the cavernous hangar who assembled to see and hear the secretary of defense.


Rumsfeld hesitated and asked Wilson to repeat his question.


"We do not have proper armored vehicles to carry with us north," Wilson said after asking again.


Rumsfeld replied that, "You go to war with the Army you have," not the one you might want, and that any rate the Army was pushing manufacturers of vehicle armor to produce it as fast as humanly possible.


more: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&ncid=736&e=3&u=/ap/20041208/ap_on_re_mi_ea/rumsfeld

Just saw this exchange on CNNI.

[freeplessinseattle]

1. what an ass! (nt)

[Dulcinea]

31. He should have been the first cabinet member to go.

But Boy George will never fire him, troops be damned.

Loyalty is everything, kind of like the Sopranos.

[Ilsa]

48. As they were saying on The Daily Show last night,

if you are a failure at your cabinet job, you got booted. If you are a colossal failure, you got to stay.

[Hieronymus]

113. Junior Bush is afraid of Rummy..........

Margaret Carlson suggested this on Capital Gang.:eyes:

[wellstoner]

68. Abstinence from Reality is not a Moral Value

[freeplessinseattle]

115. ooh, good one, bumper sticker material! (nt)

[leftchick]

2. he looks so happy too...

[ET Awful]

13. Hmmm, am I the only one to notice the resemblance? . . . . .

[Seabiscuit]

95. LOL! Looks like both Rummy and Cheney rolled into one.

[0007]

97. You must mean Mucus & Smegma

[Seabiscuit]

101. Speaking of Mucus and Smegma...

My wife forced me to watch some of the "White House Christmas 2004" program about preparations of the Bush Xmas decorations this year - and HOLY CRAP! Their Xmas trees look like they're covered in PHLEGM -the snow job they did on it was just horrendous.

[yorgatron]

116. that's not the ONLY

snow job they've pulled this year...

[pokercat999]

43. You can bet

the troops in this picture were disarmed before being allowed in the presence of the anointed one.

Fucking coward.

[Algorem]

78. His ancestors gotta be from Trancelveinya

[ogradda]

3. i fucking hate him.

what a sanctimonious ass:mad:

[maddezmom]

4. CNN showing parts of the interview now

[Hekate]

5. Rummy to troops: You just be cannon fodder

With thanks to Country Joe and the Fish:

Ain't got no time to wonder why
Whoopee! you're all gonna die!

And it's 1, 2, 3
What're we fightin' for?
Shut up, I don't give a damn
It's worse than Vietnam
And it's 5, 6, 7
Open up the pearly gates!
Well there ain't no time to wonder why
Whoopee! We're all gonna die!


Hekate
:argh:

[jody]

17. You have a good chant with the picture from another reply

One, two, three, four - what are we fighting for
Five, six, seven, eight - open up those pearly gates
Nine, ten - a big fat grin

[Supersedeas]

24. cannon fodder as fast as humanly possible--prep & planning can wait

Rove smiles - it worked.

[LeighAnn]

6. Simon Bar Sinister

:P

[bunny planet]

104. Snydly Whipflash

[Cooley Hurd]

7. "You go to war with the Army you have..."

Yeah, only if we have to go to war under emergency circumstances (like being attacked directly), not for a war that was supposedly planned for years. Just ANOTHER in an ever-increasing line of Rummy fuck-ups...:eyes:

[Florida_Geek]

10. With out naming Clinton he just blamed everything on Clinton

Fuck him.

The Army spec out the hardware and the President (Clinton and others) signed the bills from Congress to pay for it.

But like Bush it is still somebody elses fault. Fuck him.

[Sara Beverley]

63. Clinton's military did just fine in Afghanistan

Clinton's military did just fine in Bosnia and Kosovo
Clinton's military did just fine with the initial onslaught in Iraq.
The Bush administration has had three fucking years to make it Bush's military.

[underpants]

64. Thank you that is exactly what I thought when I heard it on NPR

What a slime ball.

Oh yesterday when asked about Bin LAden he actually said "IF we knew where he was we would go get him"

[HereSince1628]

8. That's one uppity citizen soldier, I wonder

1) how he will like returning to life as a private?

2) how many "high risk" patrols he just got his unit into?

I hope that Spc. Wilson has actually found some of the metal he was looking for in the dump. I fear he is really going to need it.

[VaYallaDawg]

112. I thought the same thing when I read his question to Rumhead.

Look out for some shitty duty ahead for that poor soldier.

[BeyondGeography]

9. Reason: There's no money in armor

The hunks-of-protective metal-business isn't filled with wealthy donors and lucrative kickback schemes. The first thing to get cut out of our $400 billion defense budget is basic supplies for the troops. They aren't part of the wildly expensive multi-year boondoggles that offer material benefits to the non-combattant class.

[hollowdweller]

22. Aint that the truth! But they wasted no time on re funding Star Wars

[sam sarrha]

72. we are shipping all the steel to China.. the price is better..!!

[Hieronymus]

114. In WWII General Motors shut down and made tanks...........

what's wrong with Junior Bush and Rummy is they're too damn money hungry. Most of us know that this war is for the profits of the military industrial complex.:crazy:

[clydefrand]

11. Well, if he can't prove discrimination against NG and Reserve,

who the hell can? NG and Reserves, right? Maybe he should start listening to the ones fighting his unjust war. The bastard...may he meet the same fate that has met our people and the Iraqis.




"There's no way I can prove it, but I am told the Army is breaking its neck to see that there is not" discrimination against the National Guard and Reserve in terms of providing equipment, Rumsfeld said.

[Justitia]

12. How silly! The only "shield" we need is for missile defense!

And THAT is what the Pentagon is enriching it's cronies, er, spending it's $$$ on....

/sarcasm off

[annabanana]

14. disgusting

the more he grins.. the more my blood curdles.

[FloridaPat]

15. $300 billion a year and they can't make armored vehicles?

Gee, if the $trillon star wars program doesn't work, will that be the same answer?

[M155Y_A1CH]

27. Yeah, let's throw some more money away

We already know that "Star Wars" ,SDI doesn't work.
We wasted a ton of time and money on it during Reagan.
The only way they can get it to work is
if the enemy is willing to paint special targets on their missiles.

[LibDemAlways]

41. "Star Wars" is only the tip of

the pentagon boondoggle. US taxpayers are footing the bill for a vast array of war toy projects - most of which will never make it beyond the development stage. "Make work" for defense contractors - billions wasted every single year on complete nonsense.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

16. This was the man who said

that the war would last months, maybe, but not years. Remember that?

[LynnTheDem]

36. "six days, six weeks. I doubt six months" bushCartel; ALWAYS WRONG.

ALWAYS.

You can -and many do- take that to the bank.

"It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months

[HysteryDiagnosis]

18. Ahhh Ronald Dumbsfeld.... my favorite egomaniac.... "he's a survivor"....

Uh.... rummy... you go with the army you "had". Yeah... he's a survivor... on the backs of those who knew no better. Hey, I'm famous... I fought a terrible massacre on the cheap... I saved us tons of dough while we wasted it on some stupid project somewhere else where there was profits to be made for certain well connected individuals.

Uhhhh you go and do what I tell you to so I can be even more famous when WWIII breaks out. There are lots of you but there is only one Ronald Dumbsfeld... so tough luck, you go with what you have because we were under extreme immediate threat from the Iraqis you are killing daily.

Uhhh nevermind about all the talk of no WMD, no NewCueLear, no ties to Bin Laden, No ties to 911... you just be good soldiers and take orders from us civilians who know better.

[BikeWriter]

19. This is the asshole who fired General Shinseki...

...for saying we needed thousands more troops for a successful occupation!

[KingChicken]

20. How disrespectful to the troops.

If people want to support the troops so much then why don't they call for the defense secretary's resignation? Even the repubs should be pulling him down, if they don't it's a slap in the face to the men and women that the dumbass is incharge of taking care of.

[llmart]

21. So easy for him to say.....

"you go to war with the Army you have" - when the hell has he or any of this chickenhawk administration ever "gone to war?"

These people make me physically sick.

[Just Me]

23. Rumsfeld,...GO TO HELL!!!!

All of you greedy, lyin', anti-democracy, war-mongering imperialists can go straight to hell!!!

GAWD!!! :argh:

[Sperk]

25. why do our troops hate our freedoms!

don't they know it's unpatriotic to question the gov't in a time of war? :eyes:

I guess they wont be seeing Rummy again any time soon.

[lebkuchen]

108. I was just telling a friend about the importance of leaving a void

for someone else to fill, especially by those who have more to risk.

If the vocal few, such as those here, are the ones always speaking out for the soldiers, the soldiers figure, hey, someone else is doing that job for me, so I don't have to risk alienating superiors.

Stop trying to right the wrongs for those who are most directly related, and they say to themselves, "It sure is quiet out there. Why is no one complaining about this outrageous ineptitude?"

They realize that they are screwed, since the Bushies own and control everything, and they voted for it, and now it's nothing but sand pounding from here until eternity. So they figure, what do I have to lose but my life? Time to speak up!

There's nothing like a whining army to get the public's attention, though considering how dumb-downed the US is these days, who knows if there's a spinal chord left to tap.

[HeeBGBz]

26. This was the first thread I've read this am

Good way to start the day pissed off.

Fucking Rummy.

[Ian David]

28. Aww, too damn bad.

Tennessee is a red state.

Never mind the water let the motherfuckers burn.

Sorry, Tennessee Army National Guard, I voted for Kerry.

My condolences to your ignorant Republican mommies.

[A Brand New World]

30. Yeah - me too! First one I've read today and I'm sufficiently pissed off

to last the rest of the day, if not week. What an ass! He makes me so sick and that awful, awful grin.

[SammyWinstonJack]

83. Isn't it though?

Everyday it's one outrage after another with this gang of liars and murderers. :argh: Only four? years to go. :puke:

[Massachusetts]

29. Hostage

hos-tage (hos-tij) n. a person held as security so that the holder's demands will be satisfied.

This administration has a habit of doing this frequently.IMO :mad: :mad: Now what was it John Adams said about democracy?

"It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy that did not commit suicide." - John Adams

[Ian David]

32. He's lucky they just didn't start shooting him

Hey, you give a speech to the troops with the security you have.

I don't know why our troops let him leave in one piece.

"Friendly Fire" is a bitch, you know?

[Swamp Rat]

33. You go to war with the Army you have - MY Army! No go die for our oil!

[chelaque liberal]

34. The Daily Show's piece on Rumsfeld last night was priceless!

And that was before THIS.

Unbelievable.

[chelaque liberal]

35. "A big cheer arose from the approximately 2,300 soldiers...."

"A big cheer arose from the approximately 2,300 soldiers in the cavernous hangar who assembled to see and hear the secretary of defense."

And we're supposed to believe they voted for Bush?

[underpants]

38. Yes....yes you are now stop hating 'Murka

Sorry I had to say that.

[peacebird]

59. soldiers are pissed off enough to call the SecDef on the carpet

now THAT is unusual to say the least! These brave men pointedly questioned the SecDef, in a war zone no less. And they obviously knew they had the support of the majority of their fellow soldiers before they dared to speak truth to power. That support was evident by the cheering after they spoke.
This war is NOT going well and the troops know it. When the troops break protocol this way, it is a serious statement. Morale must be truly rock bottom over there.

[Bush was AWOL]

69. I thought the same thing

ballsy soldier to ask the Sec. of Defense that kind of question in front of that large of a crowd. This means the situation must be so bad that they absolutely had to say something.

[Nihil]

120. Heard the sound clip on the radio last night

Driving home, listening to BBC Radio 4 and they played the sound clip
of the soldier asking the question followed by a HUGE cheer!
Anyone who tries to play this down as "only a few soldiers agreed"
needs to *listen* to that bit ...

[StaggerLee]

37. He traveled all that way to personally take a dump on our troops

I guess the long distance dumps weren't enough for him.


And all this time I had no idea that ghouls could crap.

[Dulcinea]

79. To me Rummy looks chronically constipated!

I have never seen anyone in more dire need of Metamucil.

[underpants]

39. TRANSLATION:your death or dismemberment is inevitable...the will of God

"You can have all the armor in the world on a tank and it can (still) be blown up," Rumsfeld said.

[SammyWinstonJack]

84. Put Rumfilled on one of those tanks

:argh:

[Solly Mack]

40. That man is well hated by many in the military

Just the other night a conversation on Rummy took place and every single soldier in the room expressed hate for Rumsfeld.

Listing reasons and examples like those in the article.

His "casual dismissal" of the soldiers.
His "lack of concern" over how many die.

[Ian David]

42. They're talking up a storm about this on the Yahoo! board

http://news.messages.yahoo.com/bbs?action=l&board=37138459&tid=aprumsfeld&sid=37138459&mid=3179

Be sure to go to the article and rate it a "5" on a scale of 1-5.

And also be sure to use the "email this article" link, before the story gets freeped.

And yes, I know the soldiers seem to hate Rumsfeld, but:

1) Their ballots will never be counted.

2) Just because they hate Rummy, doesn't mean they don't believe that "John Kerry voted against it before he voted for it."

3) Just because they hate Rummy doesn't mean they don't think Bush is their best hope for survival.

4) Just because they hate Rummy doesn't mean that they, their friends, and family hate Bush.

5) The more funerals there are for them in Tennessee, the fewer people SHOULD vote for Bush. Their families should use the funerals as media events to speak out about Bush's policies that killed their children.

6) A grossly disproportionate number of the soldiers killed in Iraq come from the blue states, so let the red ones lose a few more.

And most importantly...

7) These soldiers are not sacraficing their lives to liberate Iraq from Sadam. They are sacraficing their lives to liberate America from Bush.

Yes, I want our troops home safely. But the only way that will happen is when enough of them die. These men and women are giving their lives to eventually save their fellow soldiers by forcing us to end this stupid war. I guess our troops need to die so we can save them.

[Solly Mack]

55. hmmm

And yes, I know the soldiers seem to hate Rumsfeld, but:

1) Their ballots will never be counted.


My husband votes in Volusia county. In 2000, we repeatedly called and wrote letters demanding proof that his ballot was counted. A vote for Gore, naturally. This time around, he sent his ballot in as certified mail, requiring a signature. The Post Office allowed him to do so. Needless to say we have yet to learn who signed for it....if anyone did. So the calls and letter writing will begin again.




2) Just because they hate Rummy, doesn't mean they don't believe that "John Kerry voted against it before he voted for it."

That's all too true but then I wasn't speaking to that. And many did vote for Kerry...more so than we will ever know

3) Just because they hate Rummy doesn't mean they don't think Bush is their best hope for survival.

Many don't...bank on it.

4) Just because they hate Rummy doesn't mean that they, their friends, and family hate Bush.

Now there's the gospel. Families all too often harbor a different reality than the soldier. They drive me crazy with some of the things they spout

5) The more funerals there are for them in Tennessee, the fewer people SHOULD vote for Bush. Their families should use the funerals as media events to speak out about Bush's policies that killed their children.

I agree that those who feel anger and betrayal should speak out.



6) A grossly disproportionate number of the soldiers killed in Iraq come from the blue states, so let the red ones lose a few more.



How about the dying stop, period? Most people I've met in the military are from "red" states. That's with 10 plus years on 4 continents, and several countries & states. I'd say the numbers were close though...with "most" being a small percentage point of difference. Though I admit I don't have the geographic stats for military enlistments sitting right in front of me. I just don't see how where you were born matters on the value of your death in this illegal invasion. As frustrating as "red state thinking" is, not eveyone born in a "red" state votes republican...just as not everyone born in a "blue" state votes democratic.

And most importantly...

7) These soldiers are not sacraficing their lives to liberate Iraq from Sadam. They are sacraficing their lives to liberate America from Bush.

I agree the soldiers aren't dying for freedom or democracy or liberation...but they also aren't dying to save America or Americans...on any level.....from Bush. Americans have to save themselves. Oh, I understand the sentiment, I just don't agree with it. Unfortunately, it is a useful spin....which leads to the next statement.


Yes, I want our troops home safely. But the only way that will happen is when enough of them die. These men and women are giving their lives to eventually save their fellow soldiers by forcing us to end this stupid war. I guess our troops need to die so we can save them.


I agree that it has come down to enough of them dying (whatever "enough" is) for Americans to open their eyes...I just don't think well of the people who must have this happen to open their eyes...in fact, I scorn them. People are dying...both Iraqi and American alike...to exploit their deaths is insulting. It's just adding more nasty to an already nasty situation. I understand that death is what it takes...but I don't like it. I don't accept it....and I will never forgive it. NEVER!

[Bush was AWOL]

71. I think us here at DU or some other liberal group should raise money

for body armor for the troops. A caller on Ed Schultz show had the idea on Monday and Ed said he'd give the group or person running the group as much exposure as possible if the group was started.

These soldiers are online buying body armor and asking their parents to buy them body armor for Christmas. This is a disgrace!

Instead of being like Republicans that say they support the troops by defending George Bush and putting "I support the troops" stickers on their cars, we should actually raise some money and show the troops that we feel for them, and want to help them while they are in this messed up situation.

[rhyfeddu]

88. Wow - my conflicted reaction to that is surprising even meself..

My first reaction is: WHAT A GREAT IDEA! How can we let US troops scrounge in dumps for basic protective equipment??

My second reaction: THAT'LL show those hypocritical, self righteous Right Wingers who the REAL patriots are!

My third: But do I really want to contribute, in any way, besides my freakin' taxes :( - to war mongering?? Will that prolong things? Will it make US troops have an even more unfair advantage over the civilian population?

My fourth: Well, if it was my little brother back over there (he was in Desert Storm) - karmic or not, I would want him protected as much as possible - and would do whatever I could to do so - WHILE agitating to stop the war.

*sigh* I feel pretty schizo right now...

BUT, I still think this idea has merit...Any other responses to it? Does DU ever sponsor donations?

[pokercat999]

46. It's time for our troops to stop the war.

I will support, with everything I have, including the shirt off my back, any and all troops that will lay down their arms and refuse to kill another innocent in Iraq. My suggestion is "hole up" defend yourself against attack by ANYBODY, including the SS that will be sent to get you.

[maddezmom]

47. yeah ok

why don't you sign up and then you can go over and lay down your arms with them. :)

[Solly Mack]

56. I'm sure they are just waiting for you to enlist and lead the way

Show them how it's done! Walk the walk...if you're going to talk the talk.

[cidliz2004]

74. Great IDEA!

If only it could really happen. That would set this world back on track. If our soldiers refused to "kill" any more people and simply rebelled and only raised arms to protect themselves.....well that would shake up this country more than anything else AND it would force this rotten administration to rethink thier policies.

[0007]

98. Imagine what they feel for junior who so gave the beloved Rumsfeld

four more fucking years.

Is it time to march yet? I feel a big fucking protest coming on!!

[latebloomer]

44. Rumsfeld is a ghoul

He enjoys death-- the more, the better!

[TexasChick]

45. Yeah, right, Rumsfailed. Make up crap to appease these soldiers

momentarily and to get them off of your neocon ass! Liar!!!

[Ian David]

51. Maybe if they'd stop going on "patrols," they'd stop getting shot

And maybe if they let Halliburton guard their own damn convoys, they wouldn't get killed by land mines.

I think "holing up" or "digging in" MIGHT BE a good idea, but realistically they'd still have to shoot people.

But they would only be shooting people who came LOOKING for them, not people who don't appreciate armed soldiers running around their neighborhood killing and arresting people.

And it might be a good idea to stop blowing-up "strongholds."

I would get mad if someone shot missiles into my apartment building just because a couple guys with a sniper rifle were in an apartment on the sixth floor.

[Rose Siding]

49. OMG! He tells them the armor wouldn't save them ANYWAY!

"You can have all the armor in the world on a tank and it can (still) be blown up," Rumsfeld said.
.............

They also nailed him on stop-loss. Love his compassionate response:

snip>
Yet another soldier asked, without putting it to Rumsfeld as a direct criticism, how much longer the Army will continue using its "stop loss" power to prevent soldiers from leaving the service who are otherwise eligible to retire or quit.

Rumsfeld said that this condition was simply a fact of life for soldiers at time of war.

"It's basically a sound principle, it's nothing new, it's been well understood" by soldiers, he said. "My guess is it will continue to be used as little as possible, but that it will continue to be used."
............

But it WASN'T a criticism, the reporter assures us. Oh, no- just a casual remark. Just makin' small talk, shootin' the sh-- with the SecDef in FREAKING IRAQ.

[Cocoa]

70. this is the same logic Bush uses with taxes

might as well not tax the rich, they cheat anyway!

[DFWJock]

50. These troops must hate America

Guess they didnt get the memo:

All is well in Iraq, enjoy the roses and chocolates.

[Tempest]

52. Troops cheered loudly when the soldier asked RumsFAILed

I heard the audio and the troops cheered loudly when the soldier asked about the body armor.

[marc_the_dem]

53. Call for Rumsfailed resignation

The one cabinet member that should have quit.....

[Ian David]

54. Maybe they'll just shoot him

[underpants]

61. I remember some soldiers do just that on ABC WNT over a year ago

Brian Ross:What would you say to Secretary Rumsfeld if he were here today?

Soldier:I'd ask for his resignation.

Welcome to DU :hi:

[DeaconBlues]

57. It'll be a long time before Bushco makes the mistake of having a honest

and open exchange with the people (soldiers or other citizens) again.

[kskiska]

58. I wonder if Rummy's vehicle

had the armor he claimed was "not always a savior"?

[insane_cratic_gal]

60. The disent begins

I believe your going to hear more and more from these soldiers.

I just wrote a huge rant in another post.

Trickle trickle, the truth and discontent is starting. Hold on your arses Bush voters, your about to exposed to the truth no even Fox can spin to bs

[gatorboy]

65. Fox probably wouldn't even run it....

...Unless they shoot the soldier for treason which Fox would probably approve of.

[rhyfeddu]

87. Took the words right out of my mouth...

...I guess looking folks in the eye, and telling them its not worth doing anything "extra" to insure their safety, takes a special kind of integrity, a moral fiber not available to most of us poor SOBs...No wonder Bushco. won! How can we compete with the power of Compassionate Conservatism in action! *defeated sigh*

And if I really need to say it: <sarcasm off>

[gatorboy]

62. same thing here: http://www.adoptasniper.org/items.html

Apparently, the troops are so well supplied they have to resort to begging online for the body armor that they need.

[Javaman]

66. To Clarify assfelds words to the troops, "thats a big fuck you, son!"

[Mr_Spock]

67. Rumsfailed should be run out of town on a rail

I'm surprised they haven't given this loser the boot yet. Probably can't get a job anywhere else :D

[AzDar]

73. It was also reported (on CBS, I believe) that he said " All the armor

in the world won't guarantee that a tank won't be blown up." That stunned me...he said this to SOLDIERS who, through the gross mismanagement of war criminals like Dumsfeld, run that very real risk every day!

[Javaman]

75. Is this is concept of fast quicker more efficient army?

We do with what we got??? what ever happened to his bullshit line of having the best equipped army in the world????
God this guy is so full of bullshit excuses.

[Felix Mala]

76. How the Rummy Stole Christmas...

Soldier: Mr. Secretary, why? But why do you send us into battle without the equipment we need to survive? Why didn't you plan to have the materials we needed to do our job?

Narrator: But, you know, that old hack was so smart and so slick He thought up a lie, and he thought it up quick!

Secretary: "Why, my brave American hero," the fake patriot lied, "There wasn't time for a contract for Haliburton to put armor at your side.
And besides, no one ever knows what's needed to fight.
Why, next you'll want socks and rifles and cots for the night..."

And his fib fooled the soldier and one presidential dunce.
So he patted the boy's head and sent him off to front.

[Javaman]

77. the tide is turing folks...

[freedom_to_read]

80. no, I'm afraid it's still coming in

PNAC neocons are still in charge of our foreign policy.

Our country is still hemorraging jobs, and all the federal government will do is reward them with more pork and tax cuts.

Our national credit rating is going to tank as the dollar slides into oblivion.

Bush is prancing around in Il Duce suit, while the Christian right revels in its "victory of values" and eagerly awaits the appointment of rightwing judges who will gut our civil rights.

Our kids are still being killed in Iraq, with no end in sight.

Four more years... :( :( :( :(

[Javaman]

85. I should have been a bit more clear...

Tide turning in Iraq as far as the soldiers are concerned. If the rah rah press conferences are now having the hard questions asked by the troops themselves (instead of the journalists doing their jobs), that usually means that the soldiers, sadistically as a whole, are beginning to feel a bit taken advantage of. (sorry for the preposition)
And didn't they overwhelming vote repuke? funny how that works.

[freedom_to_read]

107. let's hope you're right!

only when the brave men and women on the front lines start questioning this insane and pointless war will we ever see the end of it.

[hobbit709]

121. We don't know

if they really overwhelmingly voted repuke. Who counted the votes?

[oneold1-4u]

122. IL duce suit-Mercy

Knew it was recognizable! and old enough to remember!
It was, of course a custom creation to only casually suggest possible body shielding material that would have made 5 shields for soldiers.

[Greylyn58]

81. The One Thing We Know

for sure: The first casualty of war is "The Truth!"

And Rummy and Georgie and the lot of them wouldn't know the truth if it jumped up and bit them in the ass.

"So Mr. Secretary, since you know all about how vehicles blow up...when was the last time you were in a war? And did you have the correct armor plating on your vehicle? Oh that's right, you're never been in the service.

So tell me sir, what happened to all that money that was voted on to provide the troops with the support they needed. Oh that's right it's going to the contractors who are providing lousy food, contaminated fuel, and no help whatsoever."

Welcome to the New Bush Military. An Army of One...one flak jacket, one armored vehicle, one gun. Get use to sharing.

:crazy:

[underpants]

82. Great post

Welcome to DU :hi:

[VolcanoJen]

86. NYTimes article: Disgruntled Troops Complain to Rumsfeld

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Rumsfeld.html?oref=login&oref=login&hp

[maddezmom]

105. AP changed the link...same as NYT now

[msgadget]

89. And, they're punished if they try to avoid...death in the unarmored

vehicles. What options are left to our enlisteds? Perhaps they should form a union...

>The American military has ordered punishment, but not courts-martial, for 23 Army Reserve soldiers who refused in October to deliver fuel to a base in Iraq, claiming that it was too dangerous, military officials here said Monday.

The soldiers are receiving nonjudicial punishments under Article 15 of the military justice code, which could include reduction in rank, loss of pay and restricted movements depending on their commander's discretion, said Lt. Col. Steve Boylan, a military spokesman.<

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/07/international/middleeast/07convoy.html

[ElectroPrincess]

91. Yes, and like Randi Rhodes stated yesterday, they're being PUNISHED

via what's termed Non-Judicial Punishment (Extra Duty, etc.).

As if being stationed in Iraq withOUT the essential gear ... in a dire occupation where their security is being unraveled day-by-day

IS NOT PUNISHMENT ENOUGH?!?

IMO many of these high level civilian leaders in the DOD are shameless ... gut-less wonders without an ounce of either integrity or compassion for the troops forced to remain an unGodly time in those Middle East hell-holes. :(

[msgadget]

99. And, may lose PAY!

[RamboLiberal]

90. Only in February did AM General up production to 450 a month

Within weeks, Mr. Brownlee convened a summit at the Pentagon of defense contractors who design and build armor.

In February, he traveled to AM General, which makes the ubiquitous Humvee, and to O'Gara-Hess & Eisenhardt, which makes armor. He got the chief executives in one room.

"I told them to show me the fastest rate at which they can build these things," Mr. Brownlee recalled.

AM General responded by increasing production of "up-armored" Humvees (as opposed to "thin skin" Humvees) from 150 to 450 a month.

By this fall, the Army had put 5,000 in Iraq, only to learn a few weeks ago that commanders had upped the need to 8,000.

<snip>

On a second front, the Army needed to start providing armor kits so mechanics in the field could plate the basic 5- and 10-ton trucks that insurgents found as easy prey. To date, the Army has sent more than 9,000 kits to Iraq.

http://washingtontimes.com/national/20041115-124102-1142r.htm

Rumsfeld and all his neocon bunch should've paid for this outrage! Why the hell isn't it a priority to produce more than 450 armored Humvees a month? Great country - bah humbug!

For the hell of it I looked up U.S. production in 1943 the 2nd year of WWII. We produced:

29,5000 Tanks
86,000 Warplanes
2.5 Million Tons of Warships
12.5 Tons of Merchant Ships

But these asses can't produce more than 5,400 Up-Armored fancy-ass Jeeps on Steroids!

There should be howling they haven't asked their damn base for neither treasure or blood. It's about time some filmmaker like Moore takes recruiters to a bunch of Young Repuke meetings!

[ElectroPrincess]

94. Well, it's like this ...

Just like the rich republican pregnant teenagers who will be smartly spirited off to Canada for their abortions upon the overturning of Roe v. Wade, the YOUNG ADULT MEN of the republican party can always count on their Daddy's money and influence to prevent them from putting their life on the line for the USA.

BTW I'm waiting for a deafing "popping" sound marking the act of lower and middle class republican families pulling their heads out of their a**es - upon learning that THEIR SONS have been tagged to be drafted to Rummy's war(s) in the Middle East. Unless they're inhuman, I hope and pray that these God-fearin' republicans experiencing "their own children" coming home in a box - well, just may serve as a "wake up" call for these willful idiots.

[ElectroPrincess]

100. "But these asses can't produce more than 5,400 ...

Up-Armored fancy-ass Jeeps on Steroids."

I'm gonna have to mentally file that term for later use. Didn't catch it because I subscribe to the Washington Post, not the Times.

CUTE and oh so TRUE! :-)

[insane_cratic_gal]

102. Comapny supplying Armor kits

Is an israel company.. associated with Arco.

i found it yesterday, what it all means? I have no idea but let's put it this way.. the goverment gave them 4 million to do the job.

Bush is spending 2 million on a friggin Yacht?? where the hell is the justification in that?

[oneold1-4u]

123. The years of WWII

One couldn't buy much and had to have ration stamps for what was available, but we accepted the needs for war. We could accept this even now by simply cutting back to necessities. The people of the US can only hold the government and huge corporations a bay with the same tools they use against us. They want our money to grow bigger and continue with more control. We should let them know that we can give up much until they can do more to protect the men and women soldiers who they put in harms way for their war!

[Barkley]

92. Why do we reward failure and incompetence?

As republicans are so fond of saying when comparing private firms and government inefficiency.

'If Rumsfeld were heading a private firm he'd be fired by now'.

[cosmicdot]

111. 'If Rumsfeld were heading a private firm he'd be fired by now'.

I'm not so sure ... the good ol'boys running (should that be ruining?)corporate america get all kinds of perks, golden parachutes, bonuses, severance packages regardless of 'performance' ... *-Cheney/BFEE gang is a very corporate mindset group ... destruction of people and things are not deemed as 'failure' imo ... they are part of the unwritten mission (often contrary to the written policies, PR, etc.), and toward that goal, they are meeting their objectives ... this is why so often the walk doesn't match the talk ... intentional mismanagement used to cover things up while the looting goes on and to perpetuate/maintain their power ... that's what I observed during my days in corporate america ... the attitude was: at least I made a lot of money (despite the abuse, the failure, etc.) ...

Rumsfeld would probably find himself getting a pat on the back by the Board of Directors; and, more money.

In corporate america, he'd tell the overworked, underpaid, downsized grunts: be glad you have a job; and, he'd be awarded for it ... to the troops he says: "You go to war with the Army you have" ...

he's a 'team player' as they say in corporate buzzwords

[skysurfer]

93. Interestingly enough

I was listening to Rhandi Rhodes on Air America yesterday and she mentioned that during the Pretender's speech at Camp Pendleton (sp?), there was a protest being held right outside by the parents of soldiers who had been killed or were currently deployed. Of course, I haven't heard about this anywhere in the msm.

[Fiendish Thingy]

96. 2 years after Pearl Harbor, we had rebuilt an entire Navy

But Shrub and Rummy can't even manage to Armor all our Humvees. Of course, in WWII, in order to to make this massive manufacturing effort, we had to make some sacrifices- rationing, retooling entire industries for the war effort, and, of course, the draft. Too much too ask in the 21st Century I guess...for an illegal war.

[RamboLiberal]

106. Exactly and I want to correct stat I put out

I meant in 1943 we produced 12.5 million tons of merchant ships. We could produce a Liberty Ship in a bit over 2 weeks.

And we produced 640,000 Jeeps for the entire war!

And I sure hope the lower and middle class Repuke voters do pull their heads out of their butts. What's strange is some of them do have their kids and themselves in the military. I think some getting called off IRR are getting a wake-up. And how about when their kids have to enter the military cause there are no good-paying jobs and college is too expensive. Heard one Bush voter on talk radio told her son "now is not the time to join the Army."

I don't want to see a draft but part of me would like to see these Bush voters reactions to one.

[oneold1-4u]

124. Seeing the draft

Rumsfeld would tell you "it just is" whether you like it or not.
Imagine: How could they possibly outfit a couple of million draftees, when they couldn't plan or keep with needed equipment for just those in Iraq today?

[deadparrot]

103. I saw this this morning.

I just got up, and flipped on the TV on my way to take a shower, and I turned it on just at the start of this little clip.

In all honesty, it almost made me cry. I was angry and upset that these men and women are there without proper equipment, yet I was happy listening to the huge applause that the line got. The troops know something is up, and they're beginning to stand up for themselves to Rumsfeld and the other higher-ups.

[RamboLiberal]

109. Love the reply from the soldier's wife

Wilson's wife, Regina, said she wasn't surprised he challenged Rumsfeld.

"It wouldn't matter if it was Bush himself standing there," she said. "He would have dissed him the same."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=2&u=/ap/20041208/ap_on_re_mi_ea/rumsfeld

Guess Wilson won't be invited to any Bush rallies - he's now on the RNC terrorist list.

Oh and fuck the media - disgruntled troops my ass - as Ed Schultz said how about "concerned troops".

AP Headline - Disgruntled Troops Complain to Rumsfeld

[SKKY]

110. Knowing someone who worked for Donald Rumsfeld...

...and having extensive conversations with her about the time she spent with him, I've come to the conclusion that he was probably more pissed off that the notes he had were in 12 pitch font and not 10. This is a guy that does not care about the Military he leads. It's simply a tool to him. Nothing more. "You go to war with the Army you have, not the Army you want." Need I say more?

[rhyfeddu]

117. Unfortunately, all this means is...

...that this administration will be even more selective about what appearences and access they will give. If they can't even control the response from the troops, they'll just avoid (completely non-vetted) troops. Can't ruin that photo-op, after all...

And don't listen to the bad news you're getting, just avoid the person(s) giving the bad news to you

[Placebo]

118. I'm watching clips of it now on CNN...

what a totally insensitive bastard.

[tiredofthisstuff]

119. Rumsfeld -Looked like raw meat in the middle of wolves!

It is about time that the soldiers start speaking out against these people. It just takes one person in that situation to get the pack howling.

It is also about time that the media start reporting it. I have many friends whom have returned from Iraq and they state that there is alto of spoken out rage coming from the soldiers.

I how this is the start of a new trend. :-)

[lesterhalfjr]

125. I think he and Cheney feared something like this

But I don't think they expected it. He and Wilson should change jobs for a while.