(SUV) Driver who hit teens labeled as mentally ill

[fishnfla]

http://www.orlandosentinal.com (free registration required--I have trouble accessing their site sometimes)

according to her husband she has been sick for 18 years, sees a Dr. every 3 months for a chemical imbalance, and takes six meds daily for her condition

sounds like she snapped. It doesn't excuse what she did at all.

But-- to all those DUers in the other LBN thread calling for her execution before knowing all the facts of the matter--

congratulations, we have become the enemy

[Moloch]

1. Why the hell was she driving in the first place? NT

[barb162]

19. a huge number of older people in Florida shouldn't be driving

To me that whole state with its huge elderly population is a real demolition derby. They don't have strict laws in that state on the elderly being tested. I know an 83 yyear old man down there who is BLIND and he keeps getting his license renewed by mail.

So if this woman has a good driving record previous to this, who is gonna take her license

[BuelahWitch]

100. She's only 47

That's not elderly by any means

[George_S]

101. Serious question

The concern and empathy for the kids who were run over is understandable. I would HATE to hit a kid of any age who ran out in front of my car. It is impossible for me to think of doing so intentionally.

However, is it possible to have compassion for them and still look at the bigger picture and try to understand it?

Also, has anyone ever witnessed something that made the paper? They never get it 100% right.

[yardwork]

103. Those are all very good points

I think that a lot of posters here are trying to look at the bigger picture. This is a really difficult set of circumstances to try to understand. We have a lot of conflicting feelings.

For those who are feeling offended by fellow Democrats being seemingly heartless or jumping to conclusions, I suggest that each post on this thread needs to be looked at in context. I don't think anyone's post sums up the entirety of their feelings. We are reacting to one another as much as we are reacting to the story.

[fishnfla]

119. I dont think people are looking at the big picture at all

they see SUV=> they react: freeper!
they see Florida=> they react: evil!
they see white assailant, black victims,=>they react: racism!

This is a disturbing trend in America that started with talk radio, the internet has only made it worse. People hear the latest story and react vicerally without complete cognition or rational interspection.

Must. Spout.Off. ///Must. Not. Wait./// Must-speak-out-and-never-waiver-even-if-facts-prove-me-wrong.///Must catch media cycle///


Evil/Racist/SUV lady-must-die. Next media tidbit please!

I think forming an opinion without being educated is how Shrub gets votes. Like I said, we have become the enemy. Garbage in-garbage out.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

136. Speak for yourself-"we" have not "become" the "enemy"- or anythiing else

First of all when you say "we" you include yourself in a group, as if you are a part of something.
The only thing you're a part of is yourself and own guilty feelings.

And terms like the "enemy" sound awfully "freeperish" to me.
You know, like shrub's terms--you're for us or against us.
They always speak about the "enemy" etc., in the "war on terra".
And I have to assume that you might be more at home in a fascist, all in agreement discussion.

There is no "enemy"

And technically there is no "we" here at DU -
it's individuals expressing their opinions--(and if there were a "we", then "we" all together couldn't be coraled into a blanket category in some numb nut judgement call made by you because all of our opinions are slightly varied.

You have your opinion, even if it's lame, but don't try that argument that if all of "us" don't agree with you then we have all gone to hell and should repent our evil ways.
Keep your opinion, express it, but just remember that when you do, you may or may be agreed with,.

And I maintain my freedom and that freedom includes the freedom to disagree without being labeled as some sort of diabolical evil mofo if I don't agree.

I have the right to think.
And so does every one of us "judgemental" s.o.b's here at D U.



and, by the way,if you want to persuade, simplistic logic techniques aren't going to inspire very many people to share whatever opinion it is that you seem to want everyone else to agree with.

[barb162]

111. I know her age; I was commenting on the number of people

who for various reasons shouldn't be driving

[puddycat]

34. You think the "mentally ill" shouldn't drive? that's 1 in 4 Americans

Why shouldn't she be allowed to drive? Well, before that incident of road rage, anyway. It sounds like road rage to me, and if that some so-called "normal" idiot, you wouldn't be proposing to take away driving rights from all normal morons, would you?

This society is terribly prejudiced against "mentally ill". I know a wonderful man, with Paranoid Sch. (same as the lady in the story) and he is a great driver. You want to deny people like him the right to drive to work, to the doctor's, to wherever?

I hope you have a change of heart, because 1 in 4 Americans are diagnosed with some kind of mental illness--labelling people mentally ill is big business in 'Murka.

[TahitiNut]

43. 1 in 4? Well, they can be a "jury of her peers," then.

It'd be an interesting verdict. :shrug:

[puddycat]

44. point is, that she should be punished for her behavior, not her condition

Attorneys have abused the mental health industry, and the mental health industry abuses society. And the media have really wallopped the mentally ill--blaming them in screaming headlines everytime a robbery etc is committed by someone who ever saw a shrink. Its stinks and whole system needs to be overhauled. More and more Americans are sucked into the deep chasm of the psych industry, and at the same time there is more and more prejudice against them. Something's gotta give.

[WI_DEM]

2. well that doesn't explain why someone who is going thru

all of that was allowed to drive? No she shouldn't be executed but she should be held accountable for her actions.

[George_S]

12. New tests for driver's license proposed...

... Senator Liberal Wingnut proposed legislation to include mental health tests along with eye tests for driver's license.

Mr. Wingnut included the provision in the "New Freedom Commission on Mental Health" bill, but he wasn't wearing his glasses and accidentally included a link to Hitler's Mein Kampf. His amendment was promptly removed.

"No worries," said president Bush. "God has a plan. In the future we will know the mental health status of every 16-year-old who applies for a driver's license."

"Mr. Wingnut should be ashamed of himself for spilling the beans," said Charles Davenport, CEO of Good Humans for the Extermination of Bad Humans. "Every time we tell the truth, it sets us back years. We will never be able to require DNA tests for genetic predisposition of promiscuity, criminality or anti-conservatism as long as the beans are scattered all over the House floor."

When a reporter pointed out that Senator Liberal Wingnut is Dem, Mr. Davenport smiled and said, "Don't you just love it?"

[Warpy]

3. All violent criminals "snap."

At what point do we excuse their crimes, and at what point do we lock them up for public safety? That's the bigger question.

[George_S]

Saying there MIGHT be extenuating circumstances...

... that could make the death penalty unjust is excusing her crime? Never mind that she didn't kill anyone.

Sheesh. Put on your jack boots, grab your AK-47 and go hunt 'em down.

Trials cost too many anyway.

If I'm being suckered by freepers here, someone please let me know.

[ender]

28. and if she's been on heavy antipsychotics for 18 years....

then there is one helluva extenuating circumstance.

sigh.

i have an aunt like this - paranoid schizo/psychotic, and on heavy, heavy doses of anti-psychs... flips out every couple years, and it takes months in the hospital to put her back together.

well-meaning, nice woman. but sometimes she goes a little nutty.

and it truly isnt her "fault".

[sendero]

60. I totally agree....

... but a person with mental illness this severe should not be driving, period.

[jobycom]

62. You wonder if "liberals" would be more sympathetic if she were in a Prius

rather than an SUV. Just a thought. There is a certain image we have with SUVs that may affect judgement.

For the record, I drive a Prius, not an SUV.

[Catherine Vincent]

68. Not imo.

It doesn't matter what she was driving. She injured people severely and should get prison time.

[Cronus Protagonist]

83. Hahaha ! Good one.

And there might even be a grain of truth in it too... :)




http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
Buttons for brainy people - educate your local freepers today!

[fishnfla]

96. The other LBN thread is a fountain of ignorance

The driver should be criticized and judged on her actions and her criminal intent. Her mental state should certainly be taken into account, as is done in a court of law. I think it would be best to TRY and understand how something like this would happen.

In the other thread, the driver was vilified for the following:

-she drove an SUV.
-her SUV 'must have had' a Bush sticker on it(someone go check!)
-her SUV had yellow ribbon "support the troops" on it ("I hate those!"
-she smoked cigarettes (was that sarcasm?)
-she lives in Florida, something about Katherine Harris
-she lives in St Johns County, 'must be a republican'
-she must be a freeper&etc

in this thread: she is an 'obvious racist' because she is white and her victims are black

I am reminded of 2 things:

1. When Newt Gingrich blamed the Susan Smith incident on Democrats
2. When Shrub mocked Karla Faye Tucker about her execution

Like most hatred, it is the spawn of ignorance. We have become our own enemy.

[George_S]

98. Same dynamics in the 1900s

The entire system today is based on probability and statistics. If there is a chance, or a greater chance, of a future crime, lock 'em up and throw away the key. Doesn't matter if a particular individual fits that mold or not.

All the 3 Strikes laws are founded on this. There is no individuality when it comes to crime. Even judges no longer have the legal ability to look at a case individually. The liberal faith in science, like happened in the 1900s, buries individualism under the statistical numbers. This suits the right just fine. They too, like the "socialists" back then, think utilitarianism trumps individual rights. If the odds favor "the greatest good for the greatest number," civil rights and individual potential be damned. No individual can beat the odds - or more precisely, it is not worth the risk even if they could.

That, and the media has us so scared and resentful that we think life sucks ONLY because of individuals. The environment, society, is some God that can do no wrong. Everything is the individual's fault. In the 1900s, the debate was between Lamarckism (environment) and eugenics (heredity), and it is the same now. Just different terms today. Hitler was long enough ago that eugenics can at last make a come back.

No doubt this woman is "feebleminded." Exactly how the freepers want it.

This thread is not unique and it too often exemplifies "liberal" philosophy here in general. Again, I am obviously not a modern liberal and it would do just as well to hang out at freeperville. At least they aren't hypocritical about it.

[Demonaut]

4. "we" a lovely generalization that a few constitute the mass

I'd just like her to serve her sentence in Abu Ghraib

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Demonaut]

7. I do, thanks for the insightful observation

[George_S]

13. You're welcome.

[Demonaut]

15. I am?

sure, just give her a pass for having an illness...In fact praise her for not backing over the kids until they were dead! and bty you don't know me so who are you to judge me.............

[George_S]

26. You don't know her either, or know what happend...

... practice what you preach.

Who said to give her a pass? The debate is about the death penalty.

[Demonaut]

29. its "happened" but to the point the facts were laid out in the article

and extenuating circumstances may exist but she should be punished severely for running down two black youths...and if you paid attention to my initial post I was addressing the use of "we"

[George_S]

41. Happy Abu Ghraib

Obviously, I'm not a modern liberal.

I'm outta here.

[snooper2]

6. is she really "sick"

or just ignorant on pills?

[yardwork]

8. I'm sorry, but this is not enough

I know dozens of people with "chemical imbalances" - including myself - who are treated for depression and related illnesses. We don't go around driving our SUVs over children.

There are millions of Americans being treated for various kinds of mental illnesses, and the vast majority of them don't go around running down children in giant vehicles.

The woman is white. The children she attacked are black. I think that has a lot more to do with this than any "chemical imbalance."

For the record, I am totally against the death penalty and I don't think anyone should be in Abu Ghraib. However, I have little sympathy for this woman. I'm saving my sympathy for the child she ran down who is close to death in a hospital.

[fishnfla]

9. Yes only a sane racist would do such a thing

prove to me she was a sane racist

[ender]

31. but she's paranoid-schizo.

thats a hugely different animal than "depression and related illnesses".

not to belittle your problems, but it sounds like this lady has major, major, major issues.

and now, she will probably live out the rest of her life in a mental home, committed.

[puddycat]

37. lol I know of a doctor who is paranoid schz & also a friend of mine

They are better people than most of the cold-blooded sociopaths who run this nation, I can guarantee you that.

[puddycat]

36. why does it have to be a racial thing at all?

And if you want to take that tack, then the boys obviously threw a golf ball at her car. Do you think it was racial that they bopped a white woman's car? Maybe. Who knows? I think we should address the issue of behavior, not race. Not for one instant when I started to read this article did I believe that those boys just "accidently" tossed the ball on her car. Nonsense. But they didn't deserve to be run over, that's for sure. Just sounds like road rage to me.

[Moloch]

50. The original article said that there was no damage to the SUV

and that the boys apologized. If someone was deliberately throwing golf balls at cars, why would they apologize? I don't understand why you are making excuses for this psychotic, obviously racist woman.

[Tacos al Carbon]

63. "Obviously Racist?"

Based on what is this obvious?

[Moloch]

71. I shouldn't have said obviously....

but I have a hunch racism had a lot to do with her actions....

[Bono71]

82. Good grief!!! Talk about jumping to conclusions...do we

even know the race of any of the parties involved?

[Moloch]

93. Yes we do... The SUV woman was white and the victims black

what other than racism could posess somebody to do something like this? Her vehicle was not even damaged. From the nazis to lynching, history shows that racism can lead to this kind of madness.

They threw the golf ball at her car on accident, they apologized and she ran them over and then got out of the suv and lit a cigarette. She viewed them as some how less then her. Maybe it was because they weren't
white and maybe it was because they could not afford an SUV, whatever her motivation, I don't care. I just hope she never gets out of jail.

[Bono71]

102. Agree on that...she should rot in jail for the rest of her life

[Jack_DeLeon]

121. I definately agree with your hunch...

if any of those kids die, that women definately deserves the death penalty.

You can bet if the situation was reversed the death penalty would definately be on the table.

[SemperEadem]

153. not only that, but why did she lie and say they were throwing rocks?

no damage to her SUV was found and they apologized for their ball hitting her SUV.

If the matter was that serious for her, since she was lucid enough to call her husband after she ran the boys over, why didn't she call 911 and report the incident to the police before running them over?

Why didn't she go back into the store and report the 'vandalism' to store security? If she was scared, why didn't she park in the fire lane in front of the store and go in to report it to security? She didn't think to do that, but she thought to try to kill them?

She was lucid enough not to make a phone call to the police her first move. Period. There was nothing for her to fear from the police getting involved in the 'vandalism' of her SUV... if she was in the right, what was there to fear?

[msgadget]

10. Wait, if she's so imbalanced why was allowed to drive

or even be out alone? What sort of chemical imbalance causes a person to be so upset by a golf ball that they try and kill three kids? I wish her luck with that defense.

[barb162]

17. there's no law to stop it?

[msgadget]

33. Doctors have the ability to restrict a patient's right to drive.

[ElectroPrincess]

35. You have that right ... however, since she was only seeing

a psychiatrist once a quarter for 10-15 minutes, I'd bet that he/she didn't "catch-on" to her impending emotional breakdown. A weekly therapy or even life adjustment counseling session would have been inexpensive and, I'd bet money, could have prevented - or the treatment counselor could have NOTED her deteriorating mental condition.

But hey, she was only on six (6) psychotropic medications so just throw pills at them (the chronically mentally ill) every three months without ANY tracking or thoughtful follow-up.

Criminal charges for the psychiatrist?

[msgadget]

39. Great point!

Yeah, what kind of treatment program WAS that? Oh, what am I askin' that for? We all know our insurance companies have our best interests in mind when they determine the scope of our care and treatment. Drugs are SO much more cost effective than therapy. Instead of the psychiatrist, let's check her insurance carrier.

[1monster]

117. At $125 to $200 a visit to a psychiatrist and $85 to $175 an hour for a

psychologist or therapist in St. Johns County, it would not have been cheap... Medical, dental, and psychological/psychiatric care in St. Johns County is very expensive.

[ilovenicepeople]

128. Those Columbine kids were on these psychotropic drugs as well.

I have also heard of many suicides amonst simularly medicated folks,do we even know what these drugs are doing to people?

[barb162]

56. see my post 19; in Florida I don't even want to think of how many

people shouldn't be driving. And what prevents a person from seeing another MD to get the restriction lifted. If the doctors in Florida did this with their elderly patients, they'd find they'd be out of business, I bet, because most people want to drive even when they know they have severe physical problems that makes them a hazard on the road. Vision and reflex problems alone... well I know one elderly man in Miami who doesn't drive but is afraid to cross the street because of the elderly drivers.

[Judi Lynn]

11. Poor, poor thing. I only hope she can overcome this trauma! (sniffle)

I read that thread, didn't post in it, but clearly felt I saw some DU'ers discharging their shock and outrage over a simply fiendish group of actions.

Little did I know there was a suffering, pitiable victem trying to mow down those young men in Florida.

Before I read the last line of the original post, I thought it sounds exactly as if her lawyer is setting up her defense very quickly, and deftly getting it publicized. Nothing less.

People are responding normally in expressing rage, grief, outrage verbally. That's what distinguishes them from those who would translate anger to physical actions. Some of us are more "enemy" than the others.

[George_S]

18. LOL, so we jump to conclusions to keep ourselves from mudering...

That's funny. No one in this thread said she should not be punished. Who said that in this thread or another?

Oh, yeah, the prosecutor was going to let her go but reads DU and decided not to. Now he is adamant about the death penalty.

Sheesh, even a literal interpretation of the Bible and eye for an eye is more generous and compassionate.

[fishnfla]

20. so when they said 'execute her, run her over with her own car' ,etc

thats just "normal" and OK because they didn't really mean it?

its a good goddamned thing there are defense lawyers then

[ElectroPrincess]

38. I have no problem with punishing the individual criminal accordingly

However, in this case of some clear indicators of mental health incompetence (malpractice), I think both the psychiatrist and the treatment administration that hired him/her - should have a figurative chunk taken out of their financial a** as well. ;)

[RaleighNCDUer]

14. I think that was a given --

After all, IMHO, SUV driver and mentally ill are redundent.

[Javaman]

I don't believe in the death penelty...

I do favor long stays in prison or a mental facility.
To me, loosing ones freedom and spending ones life in the living hell of a governmental institution is far worse.

[peacebird]

27. agreed - i oppose the death penalty also

but i believe this woman should be locked up to prevent her from harming other innocent creatures.

my concerns are for the boys she ran down, and their family. If the more severely injured child survives his medical needs are going to swamp this family financially. and i pray he does survive and become whole again, tho if there is any justice this womans family will pay a huge $$$ price towards these childrens medical care.

[LisaL]

16. Oh boy, what news!

Lordy, as soon as I heard what had happened, I knew she would use mental insanity defense. What did you think was going to happen? What is she gonna say-that she is perfectly normal but just try to kill those children for fun? Of course she would say she is crazy.
:eyes:

[fishnfla]

24. What if they can prove it?

15 years of treatment, medication records, Drs. visits, etc


I agree, and this to me is the ultimate lesson: talk is cheap. How much is a human life worth?

[Jack_DeLeon]

122. I wouldnt care if they could prove she was crazy...

if that was really the case she shouldnt have been out.

She commited a heinous crime and should be punished for it.

[SemperEadem]

154. well, if you're black, apparently not much

she'll get off with a slap on the wrist and a small fine.. and it will be insulting to the family of the boys...

[Guitarman]

21. "She Snapped"

I wonder what I can get away with just by saying, "I snapped" afterwards. Any excuse in a storm I guess.

Nothing is our fault. It is always some medication or food or movie or song that made us do something totally stupid. Personal responsibility is dead!

[Moloch]

22. I don't think she should get the death penalty....

I think she should be put in stocks and pelted with eggs and what not prior to her being sentenced to life in prison. I also have a chemical imbalance but I don't run people down.

[JNelson6563]

23. Hold off on the self righteousness

With what I know now I will amend my previous statement that this woman is lucky those weren't my kids. Not only would she be mentally ill if they were my kids, she and her husband (who set her loose on society) would both have, shall we say, serious physical ailments.

And I don't care how self-righteous and pompous anyone's remarks are, that is the way it is. Maybe people with severely disturbed loved ones would think twice before subjecting us to their lunacy.

It's high time some responsibility was taken for these people and, in some cases, by these people. Hard to believe this woman is just not at all responsible when she is getting so much care and capable of driving.

Julie

[fishnfla]

25. Ok. Hold off on the rash judgement and I will

how 'bout we just execute the mentally ill to begin with and be done with it?

[JNelson6563]

75. How about we treat them properly

and keep them hospitalized so others are safe from them? Just a thought.

Julie

[Jack_DeLeon]

123. You cant...

execute people who have commited no crimes.

I however would have no problem with executing mentally ill people who commit murder.

If someone doesnt know right from wrong, then they are just that more of a danger.

[Dem2theMax]

137. You have got to be kidding.

"I however would have no problem with executing mentally ill people who commit murder.

If someone doesnt know right from wrong, then they are just that more of a danger."

Sure hope you don't get some sort of chemical imbalance some day. Sometimes they don't show up for years you know. Or maybe someone in your family. So should we kill you or them?

[George_S]

139. Why wait. We should shoot 'em just in case it might happen.

The new 0 Strikes Law ;)

We'll start with taking their driver's license and work up to that.

Everyone be a good citizen. If you have ever seen a psych, turn in your driver's license. It's best for the country.

[Dem2theMax]

140. Thank you.

I appreciate good sarcasm. ;)

[Jack_DeLeon]

151. Because that would have no due process...

What the fuck is it with you people who claim that executing mentally ill people for comitting murder is the same as executing mentally ill people who have committed no crimes?

So are you claiming that the murder doesnt matter?

[Jack_DeLeon]

150. Sure....

If we become murderers and dont know right for wrong yes.

If someone has problems that bad and doesnt know right from wrong then they will be a constant danger to themselves and others. If they commit murder better to give them the death penalty than to leave them around to potentially hurt others.

[puddycat]

46. What you wrote sounds "severely disturbed" to me.

My God, you say that if those were your kids you would take the law into your own hands and not only harm the woman but her innocent husband as well? My dear, that is not right. I know far too many people like you who are quick to attack others for being "loosed" on society. Its scary that people here at DU think that way. I guess we should get rid of all the poets and the artists--because frequently they are thought of as "crazy".

I do agree with you on one thing--the woman needs to take responsibility for her actions, no matter what her mental condition. I blame that little problem on the lawyers and legal system, who use every ruse in the book to get their clients off.

[George_S]

48. Yeah, sometimes they use that little tecnicality...

... The Constitution.

The bastards.

[JNelson6563]

77. What's wrong with people?

How often are we going to see stories of someone seriously harming or killing others while loved ones knew how ill people were? Like that woman from Texas who drowned all her kids....her husband should have known better than to leave her alone with those kids, she was so sick.

And yes, I am honest enough to admit that if a very sick person were allowed to drive a weapon like an SUV and they purposely ran over my kids, I'd sure as hell be livid with both. Perhaps, if my child were laying near death in a hospital and a loved one of the person did it admitted they were horribly ill....yes, I can foresee a blind rage that could lead to a nasty reaction.

I'm one of those people who has a real problem with the concept of someone seriously harming my kids. I guess that makes me not nearly liberal enough for you. Too bad.

Julie

[eyepaddle]

94. The insanity defense

I don't know Florida statistics (can somebody here chime in) but, in general, it rarely works and is no picnic. I once visited a lockdown mental ward (my then girlfriend's brother was a paranoid schizophrenic) it was awful, as bad as a county jail (where I've bailed people out--couldn't compare it to prison however. At any rate, to "get off" by insanity is pretty tough, and it isn't really "getting away with it."

Meeting the patients was a real eye opener--I can't say it changed my views as much as it gave me my views. No matter what happens in this particular case our treatment of the mentally ill needs to improve.

However I certainly not suggesting that treating and punishing are always mutually exclusive--just that I think punishments should have the aim of preventing things like this from happening again (as far as is possible anyway) and not "getting even."

[George_S]

47. Does that include women...

... with Battered Women's Syndrome or Post Birth depression?

[sr_pacifica]

51. "These people..." ?

Society just loves its scapegoats.

[JNelson6563]

81. Personal responsibility

If you call a mother's rage at a horribly ill person being allowed to run free in society with a weapon like and SUV scapegoating, well go right ahead. It's high time loved ones of the seriously mentally ill take some responsibility. How many tragedies do we have to hear about while the spouse admits "Oh yes, he/she was really sick...." before these spouses are held to some level of accountability??

I'd sure like to know how all you naysayers would react if it were your kid(s) laying in a hospital bed near death. I'm sure you'd just calmly react with pity for the person who did and understanding for the spouse who knew the degree of illness and did nothing to protect society. I guess I just haven't quite reached your level of enlightenment. Or perhaps I just am more honest about base human emotion....

Julie

[George_S]

86. Agreed, she and her husband should be put to death...

... and any of their kids too, because they carry the same genes and have the same potential.

Enough is enough.

[SemperEadem]

155. usually, the family is at their wits end with the mentally ill person

especially if they refuse to take medication, be it from obstinence or having a bad side effect reaction to the prescribed medication.

If you can function in society in a relatively normal manner, then the law seems to feel that you aren't 'sick' enough to warrant confinement in an institution. Only when you've demonstrated yourself as being a danger to yourself and others. Perhaps this is the first time she's manifested the danger to others in such an extreme degree. She may have tiptoed to the precipice before--being verbally violent--but never teetered over the edge into physical/homicidal violence. Perhaps her husband's been lucky up to now in being able to keep her under control. Perhaps he's worn out from the constant babysitting he has to do, while honoring his wedding vows of remaining 'in sickness and in health'.

I say none of this to excuse what she did, but by that same token, it's unreasonable to think that her husband has the psychiatric training of a professional psychiatrist to be able to predict when she would 'snap' and become a danger to others. Needless to say, a bad situation for him has gotten nightmarishly worse and I doubt he's got the mental strength to stand against the tide coming his way.

Clearly, painting her as mentally unstable makes it easier on the defense lawyer they're retaining to get her committed due to insanity instead of having to go to trial, be convicted and serve prison time for being a murdering fiend.

[0007]

30. She has the same disease as junior. It called how to fuck up

human beings.

[ElectroPrincess]

32. Well, duh. Why was she allowed behind a wheel?

She was IN NEED of counseling instead of MERELY a quarterly visit for MEDICATION MANAGEMENT by a psychiatrist. Those appointments are slotted for only 15 minutes tops!

Especially since she was taking SIX, count 'em SIX(6) different psychotropic medications, at a minimum she should have been enrolled in *weekly* therapy sessions with a certified therapist.

I would hold the individual Psychiatrist (he/she is "in charge" of the treatment strategy and conducted the intake interview) as well as the Treatment Center Administrative management *fully accountable.*

Forget "the woman" and her family, I hope the injured boy's parents take the above so called "mental health professionals" to court for malpractice - sue the pants off of them till they declare bankruptcy.

Bottom line: A psychiatry patient on more than TWO medications should be followed closely ... damn, that's obvious to us lowly Masters' level mental health counselors.

Incompetents! ... I blame the Mental Health System as much as the defendant.

[Sgent]

42. In need of counseling...

First, I wat to say I fee extraordinarly sorry for those boys. It was a horrible situation.

I am assuming the facts of the mental illness are correct as reported.

Have any of ya'll ever actually dealt with someone who is truely Paranoid/Schizo? Do you have any idea what type of havoc they can wreck to themselves or others?

Mild sufferers will be in the hospital every 3-5 years, assuming of course they have insurance.

Severe sufferes probably have a psychotic break every 18mos or so, but they are not regular patterns.

Ever since the 60's and the move to community mental health, there has essentially been no place for them to live which is covered by insurance or the state.

Counseling in someone with this type of disorder, although it can be useful to help with side effects such as depression and anger, is often quite useless. I have seen more than a few parnoid schiz. discharged from counseling (by the Ph.D.) because they can't improve the outcomes.

In most states a doctor can't take away a license -- they can merely refuse to sign a medical authorization. Since a med auth. is asked for except when the DMV suspects a problem, its not a regular option.

To confine someone in most states two doctors have to agree that the patient represents "potential for immediate harm to themseleves or others" -- this is also the requirement for voluntary confinement to be paid by insurance/medicaid/etc.

So what we have here is a failure of the system. Is the lady responsible? Yes, the same way that a 4 year old is when they destroy a piece of furniture while throwing a temper tantrum. For this I at least cannot advocate the death penalty, or even imprisonment. I think that confinement to a mental health facility is appropriate, but remember that those are treatment facilities -- not prisons. Even Regan's assisan is getting out on weekend visits, and she may as well.

[baba]

57. I agree-someone should be monitoring her more closely.

Visits with a case manager or counselor would allow for that. But clearly this is an issue of funding within the mental health system-blame either the insurance company or the publicly funded system for that. Any practitioner would agree with you about needing more comprehensive services-but where is the funding?

[SemperEadem]

156. who wants to raise their taxes to afford the proper treatment

to the mentally ill? How long are we willing to pay and how much are we willing to pay?


That is what it boils down to--how much are we willing to fork out to ensure that our society is safe for the mentally ill and those who are not yet diagnosed (aka 'normal')?

Mental health is the red-headed stepchild of health care... there's an "it's all in your head" view on mental health. Most insurance companies do the barest minimal, cursory treatment of mental issues and cut people off way before they are ready to deal with their issues. It's pathetic how it's viewed, until something like this happens which thrusts it back into the camera lights.

Take for instance the Andrea Yates case. Was mental health funding increased for people in the aftermath of her actions? Was it even seriously looked at, or was it something that was tossed about in indifferent comedic banter before allowing to fall to the floor in a satisfying 'splat'? Right after her another woman killed her children--was mental health taken seriously then? Serious enough for legislation to be written to increase funding or to force insurance companies to cover longer treatment courses for patients? How is it that the insurance lobby is so strong that they can lean on legislators hard enough to kill measures forcing them to do their jobs instead of being so avaricious and rapacious with the profits by taking a paycut to ensure that there is treatment for patients?

[havocmom]

40. Am wondering what the reactions would be here on DU if someone

who has been on psychoactive drugs for years killed some kids with a 32 ounce legally registared handgun instead of a 2-4 ton motor vehicle. Would we demand the elimination of motor vehicles? Insist on better control of who gets to own motor vehicles? Sue the company which made the motor vehicle? Lobby for the total ban of motor vehicles?

Just wondering how that discussion would go.

[ElectroPrincess]

65. No, IMHO you seriously misjudge the most of us who reside at DU

On a daily basis, hate radio clones of Rush give the populace their "talking points" They pound-in the psyche's of their listeners-stereotypes similar to what you are attempting to describe Re: Liberals are bleeding heart Socialists with an inane or absolutely no respect law and order.

Do you realize that that's a classical RW freeper message board stereotype - that we would condemn authority first in the form of automobile manufacturers?

Seriously, that impression is total BUNK.

Unfortunately, the average American is force-fed by neo-cons from AEI, right wing republicans and RW religious nut cases how *very evil* both democrats and liberals prove themselves.

I submit the "early days" stereotyping of Jews in the budding Nazi Germany, is following a very similar pattern that the stereotyping of Democrats and Liberals that has been systematically broadcast since 1994 through the RW noise machine.

After reading your questions, I regret to say some of "this sh*t" (inane stereotyping) may be sticking in the psyche's of even moderate Democrats who reside here a DU?

The mere fact that one entertains such a possibility stands as supporting evidence that our society is going to have to almost self-destruct via a hard turn to right wing corporatism before the average, easily led American grows a spine.

I only hope there will be something worth saving after the right wing guts the government and corporate powers run the country.

[havocmom]

105. Interesting rant and colorful response to my question

and has nothing to do with my point, which means you made my point exactly. Thank you

How may people die from people behaving badly with cars? Why don't we take that seriously in this country?

[ElectroPrincess]

106. I think it's time to regroup? My point was NO more inane than

others "jumping to a conclusion that she was racist." Oh gee, perhaps she's one of those dreaded Femi-Nazi Rush is always warning his hate radio listener's about... No, you assume that we'll go right to the powerful motor industry. Do ya think given your twisted scenario that we'd demand ownership of the company. Not sound logic.

It was stated as a point to emphasize how dangerous it is to ass-u-me and extrapolate a "liberal stereotype" as you see it.

Please lighten up ... I droll on and say my typical "Damn!" here but I leave the rants to those who choose to HATE, i.e., anyone presently "foaming at the mouth?" LOL

[havocmom]

108. I just have trouble making your leap with you. The one where I ask a

question about comparing response to the news story were it about an attack with a gun as opposed to a car and your leap to Nazis. THAT is a puzzling response I did not expect. But it did partly answer my question of the response.

I made no assumptions about you. I asked a question about response to gun violence/gun use by people under psychoactive drugs vs car violence/car use by the same group of people. That is not a liberal stereotype. Your remarks, however, totter dangerously close to fulfilling that niche rather well. The word 'kneejerk' set before the word 'liberal' always annoyed the daylights outta me, but in my advancing years, I muse that it is sometimes, only sometimes, mind you, sadly accurate.

I am not in need of lightening up. You might wanna read what I wrote and how you responded and rethink just who you want to address your advice to.

My point is that we do not take the damage done by cars seriously enough in this country. That is to our great peril, I believe.

Sadly, I still have NO idea what your point is.

By the way, hinting that I am not liberal enough to suit you is amusing. You do not know me nor what I have done in life. Because I ask a question to provoke thought is not indicative that I am a Rush-bot winger. Are we now down to liberal loyality oaths with an ask no questions of your fellow liberals clause? Gads, I hope not

The overly defensive reaction to any critical comment, thought or question is more like common RW responses. I thought liberal meant to be broad minded and inclusive, to NOT expect everyone to march in lock step. If I ask questions, it is to encourage us all to make sure we think and not just respond.

[ElectroPrincess]

109. You are making many assumptions ... and yes I still think it's

stereotypically everything displeasing about the stereotype "liberal" when you attempt to change the topic to guns.

It makes us liberals look bad and gives Rush Limbaugh one of his very few VALID talking points to demonstrate how petty and unforgiving liberals can be toward one another.

Terrific, if you wish to say I rant ... if you wish to change the subject to something like "gun control" even though that has NOTHING to do with the thread topic ... if you want to discuss ONLY CRIMINALS DRIVING (vice a psychotic woman Dx Paranoid Schizophrenic) ...

Yes if you want to completely change the entire essence of this thread topic, it's a free world and a tolerant message board.

Go for it! And May Peace Be With You. :-)

On edit: I honestly do like you and respect your gift of persuasive writing. But I must admit, I've never been accused of "musing." (More of an average intelligence straight talking kind of gal)

PEACE <hugs>

[havocmom]

112. My point was not gun control. My point is that we DO NOT take vehicular

mayhem as seriously as we should. Were the story about a person under care for mental illess who used a gun, the discussion would be different, which is sad, and indicitive that we do not consider that cars are deadly.

Sorry I was so oblique that you didn't get it. Also sorry if your knee hurts from all that jerking and conclusion jumping.

[ElectroPrincess]

115. I respect you also ... it takes all types of people and tolerance.

I have reached out to explain my perspectives. I guess that an person who not only fails to "muse" and only uses the term "oblique" when it relates to Geometry does not deserve the respect of a person who wants to consider all the angles.

So be it, my knees are fine and I hope your nose doesn't stay out of joint forever. :-)

[havocmom]

130. Nose is fine. You never touched it.

And oblique does not just apply to geometry.

[ElectroPrincess]

141. I'm fully aware of that ... gee why don't you come down from

the mountain of "all knowing" and try to understand my position for a change? The last couple of posts, I clearly tried to communicate that you are inferring an implication of superiority instead of attempting to understand my viewpoint.

That's fine by me, you can use all kinds of novel, college girl words. I know their various connotations. However, I personally refrain to use these novice terms (muse, oblique etc) because IMHO one that constantly obsesses to makes a point of using "off the wall" terms is acting inapropriately arrogant.

The above point is exactly why many people who, although many of us have earned masters degrees, often feel a sense of resentment toward people who think they're not only superior to others, but have to announce it to the world. If you grew up in the Midwest on a dairy farm, you would never need to use the term "muse" in order to effectively communicate.

Even toward the end of this exchange, when I relent and clearly state "sure have it exactly your way," you are not satisfied. I give up. Take a swipe at my so called "ignorance" and liberal knee-jerks one more time. Then kindly consider going your own way.

[havocmom]

148. Re being from Midwest & word usage: I happen to be from Missouri LOL

Midwest enough for you? So I am the one making assumptions?

College girl words? Not much college on my resume, but words do not belong to particular groups. The great thing about words is they are so democratic. Like cars, guns or any other set of tools, words are neutral until someone puts them to use.

I go the way I want and you can use the ignore button as you wish. You do not get to suggest which conversations I involve myself in, which topics I choose, and certainly are not what words I use in those pursuits. Don't really think that is acting superior, just not rolling over and playing dead when someone disagrees with my position.

And where did I refer to "ignorant"? Must be a 'puter glitch or program which allows you to read words that were not actually written. I am so very ignorant of how computer programs work and what all they are capable of, but that is one strange computer process. I would hope you would not attribute words to me which I did not use.

[personman]

45. Well...

she should have ate crayons and rolled her shit into little balls, the penalty is much less severe...

[sr_pacifica]

49. Our fundamentalist society loves to demonize the mentally ill

and apparently, so do democrats.

I have to say, with the hardline responses I've read here, I wouldn't know I was on the democratic underground. Sounds like self-righteous fundamentalist christian land to me. Condemn and execute. Everything is black and white, good and evil.

Of course what the woman did is horrendous. But she is mentally ill and anyone who knows mental illness knew without her husband having to announce it.

Maybe we should be discussing how the system failed her and everyone harmed by this incident. Where is the adequate funding to help the mentally ill?

[baba]

58. You'll hear more criticism of "labeling" of the mentally ill

...than calls for a better funded system on DU, I'm afraid. Many on here are against the whole concept of mental health treatment, so are unlikely to support a better funded and more comprehensive system.

[Jack_DeLeon]

125. This is a pretty Black and White case...

the kids were Black, and the woman who ran them over was White.

Ofcourse she is going to claim to be "mentally ill," its not like she can get on the stand and say she had "White Rage."

[fshrink]

52. Any SUV driver has some sort of mental problem.

It's called "compensation".

[MADem]

59. Heh, heh, heh

Every time I see SUVs jockeying on the roads, or doing twenty point turns to get in and out of parking spaces, I have this curious urge to go home, grab a bunch of sticky address labels, and print out a bunch of stickers that say "Big Car=Small Penis" to keep handy, and slap on the backs of these gas guzzlers that I see taking up more than their fair share of parking spots.

I'm not one of those fiends who hates ALL SUVs--there are situations where they are needed, in rough terrain and in snowy mountains, and so on--and I recognize that--but where I live, they are strictly "vanity and excess" vehicles. And I particularly dislike them when they take two parking places because they are too damn big to fit into one.

[fshrink]

124. You know, even in rough terrain and snow, these pieces of shit

are completely worthless. Their center of Gravity is way too high, they're way too heavy and they guzzle way too much gas. On top of which, in these conditions, they offer the worst possible comfort. Soft suspensions will break anybody's back twice as fast as a horse. Nope: it's 100% compensation.

[MADem]

129. I know what you mean

I have a shitty old Ford compact that gets great gas mileage and has front wheel drive. It handles winter weather with great aplomb, but I don't drive like a maniac.

I have personally breezed by clowns in SUVs after snowstorms south of the Mason Dixon who have skidded into ditches or bumped into phone poles, because they think that their big car and their four wheel drive means they can ignore the weather. I learned to drive in New England, in winter, so perhaps I have a greater understanding of the forces of nature than those who don't experience winter driving routinely.

I have to admit, it gives me a certain degree of glee to see their discomfiture. I suppose if someone lives on a big hill in Montana or something, they might need one, but I won't ever buy one. They just seem wasteful to me.

[Samurai_Writer]

53. From another discussion....

The article states she has been diagnosed a paranoid schitzophrenic, but none of the medications listed in the article are for that disease. I should know, my sister is a paranoid schitozphrenic. There is no way she can function well enough to drive! I would be scared to death if my sister ever got behind the wheel (she was diagnosed at 21, and had never gotten her license before that, so has never driven. She's now 40).

There are varying degrees of schitzophrenia, but even if she had a 'mild' case, she is a danger to herself and others, especially since she is NOT being properly medicated. Her husband says she was schitzophrenic BEFORE he even met her, so this woman has been unmedicated and driving around for over 22 years! Unfortunately, there is a boy likely to die, and his other brother with a fractured skull, who are paying for the irresponsibility of herself and her family by allowing her to drive.

This does not make me any more sympathetic to the woman, though. Even schitzophrenics can know right from wrong. She stood there and smoked a cigarette while those boys were laying on the ground injured, and then called her husband like it was no big deal. She deserves to go to prison for a very, very long time.

[ElectroPrincess]

69. Sorry to disappoint ...

However if anyone can be found innocent by the reason of insanity, it's a person who suffers from paranoid schizophrenia. These people, unlike those with personality disorders or manic depression (no psychotic episodes) experience ACTUAL BREAKS WITH REALITY when unmediated. They often experience auditory hallucination and believe themselves to be some famous person from the past.

Nope, paranoid schizophrenics often are NOT aware that what they are doing is wrong ... sometimes they believe they are doing "God's work."

Scary eh?

[Samurai_Writer]

72. I realize that...

but they also have periods of complete lucidity. Who is to say this woman, even though she is mentally ill, isn't just a hateful racist who 'snapped' when some 'uppity n*ggers' had the audacity to accidentally hit her SUV?

Only time will tell, I suppose.

[ElectroPrincess]

85. As Viable= she's a radical feminist who hates men and little boys? ...

Sorry to tweak you but it drives home the point that it is DANGEROUS to speculate. A person who's Parnoid Schizophrinic often does not live in the real world - no one knows 100 percent ... there for the grace of God ...

[patcox2]

54. From "Barfly," "looks like a little misdirected animosity."

We are angry and out for blood, aren't we? The "disinterested inclination to punish." Revenge fantasies about what we'd do if it were our kids. All very interesting manifestatations, I think, of the anger and feelings of helplessness engendered by Bush winning the election.

[Bono71]

107. Hey Bukowski-- I don't hate people, I just feel better when they're

not around!

[sr_pacifica]

116. Yep n/t

[patcox2]

55. From "Barfly," "looks like a little misdirected animosity."

We are angry and out for blood, aren't we? The "disinterested inclination to punish." Revenge fantasies about what we'd do if it were our kids. All very interesting manifestatations, I think, of the anger and feelings of helplessness engendered by Bush winning the election.

[superconnected]

61. if she's sane enough to be let driving an SUV

She's sane enough to take responsibility for attempted murder.

I know there are mentally ill people out there, but this one says she's seeing a shrink every 3 months. I think too many people will get off on mental illness if she gets away with it.

I know too many people on anti-drepressants and who are bi-polar - they aren't out attempting murder.

[Sgent]

66. Bi-polar

Is an entirely different disease -- most likely they will try to hurth themselves. In addition, I know of no diagnosed bipolar who is only on antidepressents. Bi-Polar is the realm of Lithium, Depakote, and others. An antidepressent by itself is very dangerous and contraindicated.

To those who think driving is an idication of sanity, I am familiar with one man who committed suicide by hitting a bridge piling at 130mph. No alcohol, no illegal drugs, routine counselor meetings. He and his 3 kids were killed instantly. In my view, he was no more sane than she was (again according to reports).

Now all that said, it is possible that she is a sadistic b*tch that has no conscience, and is using this to try and get off. That is why a jury will live to look at the evidence and make a decision, but starting off with the idea that she couldn't have snapped is an indication of being closed-minded and unable to recongize facts that you don't like.

[patcox2]

73. You know nothing about the nature of mental illness.

There is no connection between the kind of incapacity that robs a person of the ability to reason and thus make "sane" decisions about their conduct, and the ability to operate machinery or do other similar daily activities. Your ignorance of the distinction is not a very good argument for disregarding the distinction.

[ElectroPrincess]

74. She sees a shrink for 10 minutes once a quarter for ONLY

medication management purposes. Damn, that sounds exactly like a right wing, foaming at the mouth, retribution, vengence is mine! - "eye for an eye" type opinion. Whoa! Back the truck up?

[jobycom]

64. As someone whose mentally ill brother tried to kill him, at least twice,

I can tell you that I'm saddened to read some of these responses.

When I first saw the picture of this woman right after it happened, I knew she was mentally ill, without reading the story. Her reaction afterwards, stepping out of the SUV and lighting a cigarette, is typical, and it isn't the cold reaction many thought it was. My brother was once involved in an accident that he caused, and he fled from the scene. I had to go straighten it out with the cops because he was terrified to speak to them. His reaction on the outside looked about like this woman's-- he lit up a cigarette and told me what had happened, just standing there. But you could see the guilt and self-loathing. The cold demeanor was a system overload-- he had so much stress and confusion to deal with, he just sort of shut down. This woman didn't run. What she had done was sinking in, and it was overwhelming her.

My brother tried to kill me twice. Once, he just picked me up and pile drove me into the floor, then shouted at me, before walking out, calmly. About five years later he apologized, just out of the blue one time. Another time he set my room on fire. He poured gasoline on the outside of my room, and lit it. A moment later he realized what he had done, got the hose, and put it out. We've never talked about that one.

Around the same time he slammed me to the floor, another friend of mine, or rather someone I barely knew who was close friends with my best friend, was murdered by her mentally ill foster brother. He killed her and the rest of the family-- mom, dad, brother, sister--on Thanksgiving, with a sledgehammer, then he fled into the woods. They found him a week later in New Orleans. The murder was in Kiln, Mississippi-- come to think of it, Brett Favre would have known them, he went to school with them, and was the same age as the daughter.

It was the same illness my brother had. Has. Until you've looked in the eyes of your brother, or another loved one, and seen that switch flip, turning them for a moment or two into something you don't know, and felt that fear of them, then you don't get schizophrenia.

It's an illness. This woman was no more responsible for her actions than epileptic would be for having a seizure. I would accuse people of living in the Middle Ages for not understanding this, but as a former medieval historian, I can assure you that even in the Middle Ages people recognized mental illness, and they were often a lot more understanding of it than some DUers have been today.

As for whether she should be allowed to drive-- the driving isn't the issue. When the illness is under control, she can do anything any of us can do. When the illness breaks out, often because of a problem with medication, then she would be a danger just standing in the kitchen with her family, as I've had the pleasure of learning personally. Many schizophrenics are perfectly functioning members of society, some even excelling in science, mathematics, history, art, literature, or any other field. You can't lock them all up because of the danger that one may flip one day.

[patcox2]

70. Bravo, thank you, some sense and compassion at last.

There seems to have been a complete rejection in our society of the thousand year-old traditions regarding competence and responsibility. I have seen people here bloodthirstily calling for children to be locked up, for vigilante murder and retribution. Some progressives. Vengeance isn't justice, and mercy isn't mercy if the recipient is innocent. The last person who should determine the punishment for a crime is the victim (has a bit of a personal stake in it, not impartial) yet everyone justifies there bloody thirst for vengeance by saying "I would kill them if it happened to me." (Revenge fantasies like that are, I think, a symptom of some kind of reaction to life under Bush, see my post about misdirected animosity, above). The plain-old meanheartedness of the conservatives is, I fear, a growing component of our american culture that transcends political boundaries.

[ElectroPrincess]

76. Kudos to you!

Please don't confuse schizophrenia (who BREAKS with reality) to someone who had a mood disorder but, in general lives in the REAL WORLD (Manic Depression, Depression).

Especially those who suffer from PARANOID Schizophrenia are often "not with us" - have constant auditory hallucinations and mental breaks with the real world.

Bless you for being a beautiful and understanding Brother. :-)

You're rare "ray of hope" in this mostly cold, cruel world.

[Lilith Velkor]

91. Thank you!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't sane people flip out sometimes?

And um, shouldn't the entire Bush admin be locked up for mass murder?

[sr_pacifica]

114. I thank you too

Any one with familiarity with mental illness could see, as you did, from the woman's picture that she was mentally ill. Thank you for bringing some reality to the thread.

[jobycom]

118. Looking at that picture

You can see the classic symptom. Half of her face looks enraged, they other half terrified and sad.

[proud2BlibKansan]

131. I have a mentally ill sibling too

And I do share your anguish.

But we watch her very carefully. We have taken her car away several times. Last time was last year. She wasn't taking her meds. We considered her a danger to herself and others. So we took the car and locked it up in my sister's garage until she got back on her meds.

Thankfully she never had any children. If she had ever become pregnant, one of us would have raised her children. No way would we have allowed her to become a parent. We knew she couldn't handle it.

We make her sign legal papers giving us permission to talk to her doctor and social worker anytime we want.

Because we are her family, we feel it is our responsibility to watch over her and hopefully prevent a disaster like this that happened in Florida.

So no, I don't buy the 'she's sick and couldn't help it excuse'. Three kids almost died because this woman's family didn't make sure she was stable enough to drive. That is a crime.

[jobycom]

147. That's not right

My brother has had lapses now and then. He still lives with my parents, and will live with me when they are gone, so I am familiar with watching. You've been through it, you know that a lot of things can go wrong. Meds sometimes stop working. Sometimes they seem to fail for no apparent reason. Sometimes you don't know until something happens. My brother was on meds both times he tried to kill me. Once the doctor had just adjusted them, and the new meds didn't work for him. The doctor had thought they were working, but they weren't.

The way you word your last sentence, you seem to be saying that the husband and not the woman should be punished. I can agree with that if it can be shown that he knew she was slipping and let her drive anyway. I've seen people in that situation deliberately ignore an obviously dangerous situation, either out of frustration with having to watch them, or just lack of concern. If that's the case, he should be liable for something. If a doctor misdiagnosed her, changed her medication and negligently ignored clear proof that she wasn't safe, he should be liable somehow. But until and unless there is clear evidence that there was neglect, we shouldn't go on a witch hunt. If this was just a case of failed meds, then who's liable.

I hate this nation sometimes. We confuse justice with revenge. Everytime something bad happens, when we should be asking how we can take steps to prevent it from happening again, all we ask is who we can kill, who we can blow up, who we can invade, who we can punish. If punishment were a deterent, we would be the least violent, least crime-ridden nation in the world. Instead we are the worst. Our revenge-based justice system doesn't work.

This woman was ill. She needs treatment. The boys she ran over need help, too. There are three injuries here. Pinning blame on one just so we can salve our vengence-minded bloodlust is a sign of our nation's metal illness.

One more thing: If your mentally ill sister gives warning signs as clear as you say she does, consider yourself very lucky. I've never seen that in any of my other family members with schizophrenia (brother, grandmother, several aunts and cousins-- I hold my breath, know what I mean?). We rarely see it coming. I had a professor who was mentally ill. He had a relapse one year, and no one noticed until he wound up in the hospital convincing a local paper that the university was trying to get rid of him. His meds had just gone bad. He recovered from that, and everyone thought he was fine, until one year later he shot himself to death. This man was a good scholar, and a community activist. When his meds worked, he was fine, and contributed more to society than most of us ever will. No one saw it coming. That's the most common case. So feel fortunate that your sister gives such clear warning signs, and have some sympathy for families who aren't so lucky.

[Catherine Vincent]

67. Why was she driving, if she is considered mentally ill.

I don't think she should get the death penalty but she should serve some prison time. That was unexcusable (or is it inexcusable?).

[ElectroPrincess]

78. She was not being properly monitored by the psychiatrist and

she has a mental illness which primary Hallmark is a "break from reality." We're not talking bout Manic-Depression here we are talking 100 percent psychosis prone.

She should be sent to a mental institution like Hinkley is presently in ... same diagnosis.

[Sgent]

79. She

She was driving because Democrats like Kennedy decided that mental illness shouldn't be a life sentance. He dismantled the long term treatment facilities, and created community mental health centers. Funds have been consistantly cut from these to the point that they can't take care of people like here as much as they should (frequency of follow-up, etc).

How can you justify putting an innocent in jail? What purpose does that serve society? She won't learn anything from it, it won't deter her or anyone like her, and she will be further abused in prison.

Explain how this is just????


P.S. That was a very touching story about your brother, and my sympathies go out to both of you.

[ElectroPrincess]

80. oh forgive me ...

When I came across the name Kennedy, I thought you would dis him.

Ok, but if you're arguing with a republican please don't bring up the names Hillary or Kennedy or you'll lose them "on the spot."

Now I understand and concur fully. Regrets. <blush>

[George_S]

87. Bullshit, Reagan did that when governor of CA...

Then is spread across the country.

The Ugly: the closing of mental health hospitals in California and across the United States. Is it any wonder that California seems to have all of the crazy homeless people? State mental hospitals were taken away by Governor Reagan in the seventies, and federal mental health programs were later taken away by President Reagan in the eighties.

When Ronald Reagan was governor of California he systematically began closing down mental hospitals, later as president he would cut aid for federally-funded community mental health programs. It is not a coincidence that the homeless populations in the state of California grew in the seventies and eighties. The people were put out on the street when mental hospitals started to close all over the state.

Seeing an increase in crime, and brutal murders by Herb Mullin, a mental hospital patient, the state legislature passed a law that would stop Reagan from closing even more state-funded mental health hospitals. But Reagan would not be outdone. In 1980, congress proposed new legislation (PL 96-398) called the community mental health systems act (crafted by Ted Kennedy), but the program was killed by newly-elected President Ronald Reagan. This action ended the federal community mental health centers (see timeline on this link) program and its funding.

In closing, the next time you pass by a homeless person in downtown San Francisco screaming to themselves at the top of their lungs, remember Reagan. And if your kids need to go out and get jobs at age 9 to pay down the national debt, be sure to tell them that they can thank Ronald Reagan, and now President Bush, for their misfortune.

http://www.dailynugget.com/000640.php

[no safe haven]

97. I remember what Reagan did in Ca

When I lived in Berkeley in the 70s, I lived near a halfway house for those recently "liberated" from state mental institutions. One young woman resident who I struck up an acquaintance with had been placed in an institution because, according to her, she had been disruptive in high school and her parents were advised that an institution was the best place for her.

OK, along comes Reagan and shuts down the institutions, but apparently this young woman was still considered disruptive many years later, so in order that she no longer pose a "threat to society", she was given what was euphemistically termed psycho surgery. Bingo - cured. Reagan saves a buck or two.

If this was not bad enough, she remembered the time when she could get excited about stuff - things like music, life in general. When she tried to play a guitar like she used to years ago, she just sat there waiting for something, anything to inspire her. Nothing came to her and the most tragic part was that she no longer cared. It broke my heart. I will forever equate this image with Reagan and I will never forgive him.

[George_S]

99. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest

True, some of them should not have been there at all and some should have had some out-patient plan to get them well started.

Many went homeless and still are. The LA Country jail is the mental health facility of the day, and almost all of them are arrested for nuisance type crimes, not violence.

In the 1900s, a disruptive female (feebleminded) would have been sterilized and released. It was cheaper. And she was often released to a "kind home" that more or less made a slave of her.

Are those the only choices? Sterialization, slavery, homelessness or institutions?

But, hey, at least we put a man on the moon.

EDIT for dumb typos

[no safe haven]

104. Yes, Ken Kesey knew whereof he wrote

But I think Reagan "ratchet"-ed it up a notch.

"Are those the only choices? Sterialization, slavery, homelessness or institutions?"

Welcome to the wonderful world of eugenics.

[George_S]

134. I'm glad someone else sees it...

... or I'd be paranoid schizophrenic ;)

[George_S]

135. btw, you might get a kick out of this...

D'Works joins 'Boys' club
DreamWorks Pictures has picked up the film rights to Michael D'Antonio's book "The State Boys Rebellion," which reveals the history of a government program that locked poor or uneducated children into mental institutions from the early 1900s through the 1970s.

[RelativelyJones]

84. Amazing how such flip-outs usually have their limits

I remember a couple of years ago when some guy "snapped" and attacked a lone female jogger, brutally knifing her on a running track. If that lone runner were Mike Tyson instead of a 110 lb woman would he have also done the same? Doubt it. If these two kids had instead been a couple of upper middle class neighbors would she have reacted in the same way. Probably not.

This woman should be prosecuted to the absolute extent of the law. She has forfeited any expectation of sympathy. These kids had their whole lives ahead of them.

[jobycom]

88. If she is prosecuted to the full extent of the law, she will be set free

The law requires a person to be sane enough to make a rational choice in order to be convicted of any crime. So like you, I hope the law is followed here, and she is treated for her illness, not sentenced.

As for your example, I don't recall the knifing incident, but you are completely wrong when you claim she "snapped." It isn't a question of snapping, it's a question of her brain--the physical organ with chemical reactions that all must work a certain way in order to function-- ceasing to work. We aren't talking about a temporary insanity issue, where someone argues that something just made them snap. We are talking about a woman who was under medication for a brain disorder for 17 years.

Schizophrenics don't snap. She didn't just snap right then and decide to run these kids down. Her brain would have been failing for some time, maybe over a few hours, maybe even for days or weeks. She would have fought it, hoping to regain control, but it's a dangerous catch-22, because while on the one hand she is aware that something is wrong, on the other her brain is no longer functioning properly, so she can't make the rational decision to seek help. Instead, she hides what's happening from her family and friends, trying to deal with it herself.

When the stimulus happened, her brain was not her own. She reacted to it as irrationally as she was probably reacting to everything else that day, or at least shortly before the accident. Just because her attack was the first visible sign of what was happening, don't make the mistake of thinking it was a sudden illness, or a temporary snap.

As for punishment, you have no idea the sheer hell that she was in before, during and after this incident. Ron Howard's movie "A Beautiful Mind" captures this just a little bit, but even that is sterilized and romanticized. When you can't trust your brain, or your senses, when you can't be sure that the voice you just heard was really spoken or was in your head, when you can't be sure that what you think you see is real, it is hell. When you can't tell whether the thoughts in your mind are rational because your brain no longer fires the same neurons it should fire to show you they are irrational, you can't make decisions. She may literally have believed that these boys were demons inhabiting the bodies in front of her, and believed that she was saving the world, or even the boys themselves, by her actions, and her brain would not have been able to tell that those thoughts were crazy.

I don't know why people can't understand this. If I throw a ball to a man who is paralyzed from the neck down, people will not be surprised when he doesn't reach out and grab it. This woman was paralyzed from the neck up. She did not have the ability to know what she was doing, any more than Christopher Reeves would have had the ability to catch a baseball. Punishing her for that paralysis is the height of barbarism.

As for your example of people not snapping against someone who looks like Mike Tyson, that's just not true. It happens all the time, but usually the mentally ill person who attacks them is beaten to a pulp, and so it doesn't make good headlines. Families of these people know about it, but that's about all.

Please, learn what you are talking about on this issue. It is just another way that America is behind the rest of the world, and the rest of history, in its barbaric penal system that it mistakenly calls justice.

[Sgent]

89. George....

The mental hospitals in California may have been dismantled in the 1970's under Regan, but that is because California was unique.

It was Kennedy who changed the federal laws to prohibit the use of Federal money for taking care of long term inpatients who were not acutely ill. California may have hung on to their facilities until the '70s, but most of the rest of the nation had already closed them.

The idea (and its the best option when it works) is to allow people who are "half-way" to live and work in the community. This is a good thing, but it is more expensive -- or has proven to be so.

The problem is that 1) Federal funding was never increased due to the changes in the population, and 2) Mental illness funding is very unpopular at the state level. For instance, when a judge orders a person committed in Mississippi, they are put in solitary confinement in the county jails until they can be moved to the one state hospital. The legislature just refused to fund 8 regional centers for this purpose -- even though the buildings are built and equipped, there is no staff. This is not unusual.

With the lack of parity in health insurance, coupled with mental health funding that was drying up or non-existant, the refusal to give Medicaid in many states, etc. The end result is we have a massively underfunded mental health system. For instance, in Memphis, there is exactly ONE psychiatrist for the entire county. Its about the same here.

There is nowhere to put these people when they need to go somewhere unless they are privately insured, and we decided a long time ago that its a bad thing to lock people up because they have an illness.

[George_S]

95. Thanks for the further info...

... as they say, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I thought Reagan started it. He did however start it in California and continued it on the federal level.

It's a complex issue and there probably isn't any easy solution, if any at all. Maybe the real problem is that we expect society to be perfect and get very upset when it isn't, which is always - all the more so when something that happens 3000 miles away seems close and personal thanks to the media.

There is a difference though, I think, between justice and crying out for "crime and punishment" without at the same time looking for potential preventative measures.

Best if this never happened at all. Well, there we are, full circle back to perfect again. The voters in California recently approved funds for more mental health treatment. Maybe it will help.

[daleo]

92. A very well argued post

We don't know all the facts of this case, and that will be for a judge or jury, but your comments about organic brain disease are very well put.

[Lilith Velkor]

90. Gee, ya think?

(/sarcasm)

[truthisfreedom]

110. hey, i said she was insane. criminally insane.

some of us have cooler heads.

just a note to everyone else... if you called for an execution or sending her to Iraq or something, it doesn't mean you have become the enemy. it could simply be that the stress of dealing with this twisted bush mess we're in has caused you to lose some focus.

relax, everybody... it's the holidays! spend time with friends and family and enjoy the good things. live each day like it was something you wanted to write home about. i'm trying my darnedest to.

[fishnfla]

113. Thats true. Bill Clinton ordered a mentally ill person executed

left the campaign trail to do it, too. Helped him get elected. So its all good.

[Jack_DeLeon]

120. Fuck that bullshit....

mentally ill or not if they committed the crime they should be punished.

[ElectroPrincess]

126. Forget about mercy and understanding for the mentally ill ...

Dear moderators ... have mercy on those of us that are unnerved by the "hang-um" high mentality. Damn! Yes, I'm a pacifist of the Pax Christi fold, and some of you people are freaking me out, mahn!?!

No excuse for violence but if the moderators want to "gut this thread" I would not shed one single tear. LOL <only teasing>

[Norbert]

127. If she is ill get outa the drivers seat, dammit.

This is no excuse for running people over. :mad:

[Sgent]

133. You are assuming

You are assuming she has the ability to make a rational decision -- like getting out of the driver seat.

Lifetime suicide rates for people with bi-polar are 4% (not attempts, but successes), compared with the society at larges 0.25%. She was sicker than all but the most manic bi-polar.

I don't think anyone is saying that this isn't horrible -- but just as we have choosen to not hold 2 year olds accountable for adult crimes, we have to understand that this person is equally incapable, during a psychotic break, to control her actions.

If you are truley parinoid schiz, and the medicine fails, you see that aren't there -- and can't tell the difference. You hear things that aren't there, and those sounds or voices are just as real as someone sitting accross the room. Add the paranoia, and she believes everyone is out to get her -- as much as freepers say they believe in christ.

What is the public policy served by putting this person in prison? Revenge is the only one I can think of, and I personally don't think we need to base our decisions around a revenge quotient.

-----------------------
Note: The above, as have all my posts on this subject, assume that she was actually having an acute episode at the time of this situation. This will actually be up to a jury, who knows all the relavent facts, to decide, as it should be.

[alexisfree]

132. she would be perfect for the army

[Dem2theMax]

138. I can't even read my way through this thread. It's making me sick.

What this country, what this world needs, is some serious education on mental illness. I've said it before and I'll say it till the day I die -- I wish everyone who condemned the mentally ill would have to live one month in their shoes, um, their brain. That's all it would take. One month of the worst hell on earth you could imagine. Believe me, every single one of you yelling for this woman's death or not having any compassion for a person born with a devastating disease would change your tunes in a heartbeat.

If you don't have a mental illness, thank whatever or whoever you believe in. You have no idea of how lucky you are.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

142. compassion is fine until murder enters the pictue

if the legal system had compassion and excused the mentally ill from any illegal behavior that would be favoritism.
I think everyone should be held accountable for their actions regardless of any disability,
I'm sure it's rough to function in this world for disabled people and those with diseases.
but when it interferes with or ends the lives of innocent citizens...well,
you know what I mean.
Nobody's attacking mentally ill people.
We're talking about mentally ill attacking people.

[Dem2theMax]

143. If you want to know my reply to you, go back and read what I wrote.

Over and over and over. Till you get it.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

157. read mine- not attackiing mentally ill, mentally ill are attacking people

and read it over and over and over and over
and I guess
you still wouldn't "get it"(as you say)
until something happens to you or someone you love.
no scope-

let'm all go when they kill--as long as it's not you right.

treatment is the answer to prevent this.
But once it happens, well--as the judge said---no bail

[EFerrari]

146. Well,, you get your wish

Night Tripper, because the biggest provider of mental health services in the world is Los Angeles County Jail.

That's what we do, we jail and we execute mentally ill people. Forget prevention, forget management, we just let 'em rip, then lock 'em up.

We pay a gazillion tax dollars to find smart and elegant treatments for sever mental illness and then we ----don't let anyone get treated.

Go, team.

Gandhi was right. Western civilization would be a good idea.

[Seabiscuit]

144. Hmmmm. Is purchasing an SUV a symptom of mental illness?

[EFerrari]

145. Failed by the medical community again

This is my area, so while I'm new to DU, I'm not new to this set of issues.

The idiot "treatment team" responsible for this woman's care had 18 YEARS to notice she shouldn't be driving.

It only took me 8 YEARS to get a team together for my husband, and we were stubborn AND lucky.

Remember Andrea Yates? Two days before she murdered her kids, she and her husband were in a psychiatrists office, begging for help. They were not helped.

This is the level of danger our families are asked to deal with and also, to shut up about. Sometimes, the danger spills out onto the streets. It's needless, completely needless.

We have the tech to treat all of these people. It doesn't get delivered. Qui bono? And that's the name of that tune.

[George_S]

149. insanity defense

Justice is a difficult concept isn't it? If ten people were asked to supply a definition of justice, chances are, we would get ten different answers. It’s not hard to imagine the founding fathers centuries ago, laboring under candlelight, quill in hand, the memory of British repression fresh on their minds, agonizing over the proper way to address the issue of justice in the Bill of Rights. How to balance the authority of the state against the rights of the individual? How to ensure that the courts would maintain their integrity and honor in the dispensation of justice? They were genius these founders, true visionaries whose ideas and concepts expressed in the Constitution have managed to hold together a nation of unequaled diversity and complexity for over 200 years. Through hard times and good times, war and peace, the dream survived: a country where justice is paramount and people are born with rights that even a king can’t take away. We are an idealistic people, though we don’t like to admit it at times. That explains why there are few aspects of our society that so infuriate the average citizen as the notion of failed justice. And nowhere in our system is justice so challenged, manipulated and abused as when a killer pleads an insanity defense.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/psychology/insanity/1.html?sect=19

You know, just because we condemn red ignorance around here.

[William Bloode]

152. Hahah sick or not....

If it woulda been my son/s she would already be dead.

[talk hard]

158. Mentally ill? Ya think?