Teen's mom rekindles debate over novel (blue state book banning)

[jimbot]

Since its publication in 1951, J.D. Salinger's novel about adolescent angst, "The Catcher in the Rye," has been a regular on the American Library Association's list of most controversial books.

The latest debate about the coming-of-age story of 16-year-old Holden Caulfield is playing out at Noble High School in North Berwick.

Andrea Minnon of Lebanon said she had never heard of "The Catcher in the Rye" before she learned that it was on her 14-year-old son Spencer's freshman reading list. After researching the book online with her husband, she concluded that it espouses immoral ideas that are inappropriate for freshman-age students. Now she wants it removed from the freshman curriculum.
...
Minnon, however, has taken the unusual step of asking that the book be banned for the entire freshman class. In keeping with district policy, a committee will be set up to review the book and decide whether it's appropriate for ninth-graders.

On edit...I keep forgetting those pesky links: click here to link to article

[Squatch]

1. Next step:

Fucking fascists.

[bluestateguy]

2. Whatever this woman is doing she does not have blue state values

That's what I just love about the public schools: one parent complains and entire policies have to be overhauled.

[MaineDem]

3. She never heard of it!

I'm sorry but I have no patience with this sort of thing.

Here, the school district banned "Bastard out of Carolina" a few years ago. The teacher in the high school who was having her students read it was forced from her job. One parent actually said "I've never read a book but if I had it wouldn't be this one." I was convinced the reason people were objecting to a book about incest was because it hit way too close to home for many.

Education - it's a wonderful thing!

[Bono71]

25. Thought the same thing...byt the way Bastard out of

Carolina is a wonderful book.


It can happen anywhere. I am sure that abolitionist, Samuel Clemens, is laughing from his grave, at the "do-gooders" in the African American community who are trying to ban Huck Finn in Louisiana and Mississippi.

[bluedeminredstate]

36. Agree.

Who the hell has never heard of Catcher in the Rye or Salinger? You'd have to go out of your way to be that fucking ignorant!
What do you bet she buys the new Grand Theft Auto or something similar for the little dickens for Christmas?
:grr:

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

82. You'd be surprised........

..........there are parts of Maine and New Hampshire that should just be transplanted to the swamps of Missisippi.

[SmokingJacket]

108. And vice versa.

Replace "swamps" with "woods," of course.

[tortfeasor]

106. LOL ...

ya... or the new "JFK Reloaded" video game that let's you sniper JFK in Dealey Plaza... they're fine with blood and guts, but God forbid we read about and discuss sexual exploitation and women's issues. It goes on more than we'll ever know.

[Protagoras]

38. Same reaction...

Never heard of it? WTF? But then again I'm sure she's a prime example of what a Bush supporter looks like these days.

Then again she may also be a great test study for what our current education(less)/TV culture is producing. She don't know, don't want to know, but damn well wants to judge. Gotta admire dedication to ignorance of that scale.

[stanwyck]

69. Thank You!

sometimes I feel I'm on a completely different planet. When did it become honorable to "not have read" a book and want it banned...and still not even have read the book? This woman will be a hero to some. She should be ashamed of herself. Really. This is NOT something to boast about. Ignorance should be addressed. Not held up as a sign of superior morality. She needs to do her homework. What she's teaching her son is that blind discrimination, without doing the work, is more important than being open to learning.
I pity her child. I really do. His life is being kept small.
I'd like to live in a country that truly learning. These days, people honor the imprisonment of the mind.

[Behind the Aegis]

71. Ignorance is bliss!

This has become the motto and credo for the right-wing. I have never met a true right-winger who is intelligent! I have read some 'intelligent' right-wingers, but the ones I encounter are usually dumb. Educated people are seen as elitist because the right is OK with wallowing in its own ignorance! This country is in severe danger!

[Rush1184]

96. I have met some intelligent right wingers

When I asked them why they support RW policies, they usually say that it is best for their pocket books.

[Blue Gardener]

73. Same people who won't watch F-9/11

But they are just certain it is full of lies. Ignorant assholes.

[KDLarsen]

100. I'll tell you when..

.. when the current dimwit, who is obivously so friggin proud of never reading newspapers, books or anything that would enlighten his mind, was selected by the SCOTUS! Once he was on the bench, it became A-Ok to be ignorant - in fact, it becams a badge of honour.

[DemBones DemBones]

97. I love that -- "I've never read a book but if I

had it wouldn't be this one."

When a new public library was built here a couple of decades ago, replacing the horrible overcrowded and asbestos-filled one built in 1910, some saw no need for it. One man told the newspaper neither he nor anyone in his family had ever set foot in a library.

Some people just don't know what to be proud of and what to be ashamed of.

[SemperEadem]

158. the school board should make her read the book

write a book report on it before bringing up a charge to have it removed from the reading curriculum of 14 and 15 year old students.

There is no way educated people should allow uneducated people to dictate policy on education.

[The Backlash Cometh]

4. I must have read it at too young an age, because I don't remember

anything that would be considered strange by today's standards. What did I miss?

[Orangepeel]

81. it has the word "fuck" in it --

I think that is why it used to be banned. Oh, and Holden complains about his parents. :shrug:

[msgadget]

105. Don't forget the prostitute!

:eyes: If she doesn't like the values in the book - a 'standard' for reasons I can't understand in light of the many great books which have been written since - I don't understand why the school should bow to the demands of one mother.

[murielm99]

5. This is such bull crap!

We had one girl from a religious family object to the book when we read it junior year. That was back in the sixties.

The teacher gave her an alternate assignment. She was excused from class to work on that alternate assignment while the class was discussing Catcher in the Rye.

It would be so easy to do it this way. Instead, she has to try to punish everyone else. Why doesn't the school suggest this?

If my kids were prevented from reading the book as a class assignment, I would make an even louder fuss than that ignorant parent. I would take drastic steps.

[tsuki]

6. Not Catcher in the Rye again...ARRG, where do these

people come from?

[Bono71]

26. Reminds me of the folks in Louisiana that wanted to ban

Huck Finn because it is racist...never mind that Samuel Clemens was an abolitionist and wrote the book to help the cause...

Some people can't stand opinions that aren't there own, I guess.

[noshenanigans]

7. I thought that book was a rite of passage...

Oh no! Independent thought! God forbid the kids read something about disaffected youth.

What books do they think 14 year olds *should* be reading? Hmm.. "Tuesdays With Morrie" and "Chicken Soup for the Soul", I guess. Kids today need to be inspired without being burdened with those pesky critical thinking skills. </sarcasm>

[pipes]

54. The Bible, silly, that is the only book one needs...eom

[lolly]

91. No incest there!

Nobody does anything bad in The Good Book . . . well, except for that killing the husband of your mistress to get him out of the way . . . oh yeah, the raping your sister thing . . . oh, and the seducing your father-in-law by pretending to be a prostitute . . .

[noonwitch]

8. It was in my school library, and I read it

But I was never assigned to read it for a class. My private violin teacher told me to read it, because she thought I'd like it. My parents were pretty permissive when it came to books and movies, and pretty much allowed us to read or watch whatever we wanted to once we were over 14 or so.

I don't think "Catcher In The Rye" or "Bastard Out Of Carolina" are very appropriate reading materials for kids younger than high school, because of the sexual themes. I didn't read the second one, but saw the movie, which has some brutal scenes of child abuse and sexual abuse. If I had a kid under 14, I wouldn't want him or her to be reading that in school.

What I never understand is when the loonies want to ban "Huckleberry Finn" or "The Diary Of Anne Frank". One of them is an american literary classic, and the other is history with a unique perspective that not many other books have.

[rurallib]

9. And they push the bible

I honestly haven't read much of the bible in decades, but as I remember it has lots of violence, incest, betrayal, sex. Pretty much the gamut of what they don't want kids to read. Yet the bible is used for life lessons. Here's a secret they don't know. Life lessons can be found in a variety of books.

[amber dog democrat]

15. Absolutely !!

If I want prurient, salacious, steamy stuff to read, one need not go further than the Old Testament.

Murder, rape, incest, involutary servitude... better than Mandingo or Sisters by Lynn Cheney.

My favorite allusions to this theme were from A Clockwork Orange.
Remember Alex in the prison library reading the Old Testament and grooving to all of the ultra violence ? I liked the scene where he was dressed in the " height of Roman fashion " scourging Chrst with a whip.

Gimmie dat ole time religeon !

[Mad_Dem_X]

16. The Bible has LOTS of "objectionable" scenes in it!

I wonder how many of these good Christians has ever *really* read the Bible??

[Nihil]

21. Yeah, the plot's pretty crap on that one as well!

Second half has some good bits in it but the first part really should
have been edited for length ...

[noshenanigans]

11. The Diary of Anne Frank?

Why on earth have people wanted to ban that?

When I was in school in the eighties there was a big stink about a children's book in the elementary school library. The book was about a town, but it was populated with animals (as children's books are wont to have). However, the animal town's cop was... get this... a pig! There was a group of parents who tried to get it taken out, but fortunately sanity prevailed.

[Piperay]

70. I bet that was Animal Farm

it has the pigs in control and they set up sort of a Communist state in the end they become worse than the people they took over from. It's a very famous book, been used in schools for years.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

114. They wanted to ban Anne Frank because she

wrote about getting her period--something, which, of course, no teenager has any knowledge of, right?--and because she wrote critical comments about her mother.

[goddess40]

22. The Diary Of Anne Frank was edited before it was published

they took out the passages where Anne wrote about her sexual feelings - most of us read the abridged version as the unabridged version was just recently released.

I never thought I'd be one that would object to a book but I did when my then 7th grader was made to read "Night". It was too graphic for him. While he plays all kinds of shooter games on-line and on his game machines, he's smart enough to know the difference between what's real and what's not. The passage about the Nazi's throwing babies in the air and catching them on their bayonets was too much for him.

[blondeatlast]

85. "Night" in 7th grade?

I have to agree, that's pushing it pretty hard.

[lakemonster11]

86. I think that Anne Frank's father was the one who

wanted those parts edited out. They were reinstated after he died.

Night is pretty disturbing.

[Ms_Mary]

147. I read it in 10th and I was forever touched by it. That's not a bad thing

7th grade, I can see finding it disturbing. But I strongly value the importance of literature in broadening our world view and giving us a more realistic sense of history.

[DarkSim]

10. My cousin's daughter's school in South-Carolina

banned all books written by George Orwell and Terry Pratchet. Okay, i can understand George Orwell would make the high schoolers use their heads, but Terry Prachet??? COME ON!

[passy]

13. Pity about Orwell

The guy was spot on in 1984 (well 20 years off). Only we all though that it was gonna be what the USSR would be instead of the U.S. of A.
If kids don't read at school they probably wouldn't read at all.
It's up to those liberal teachers to reshape the nation to fight against the lies from the ministry of truth.

[AllegroRondo]

19. Ban Terry Pratchett??

Why?

Does it have anything to do with the Hedgehog song?

[Nihil]

23. El porcupino non sodomy est?

They probably took a dislike to "Small Gods" (one of my favourites).

(Personally, I think that "Small Gods" should be required reading to
stop people getting too narrow-minded about religion but there you go!)

[TN al]

12. My wife is on a committee for metro nashville schools...

...to review books that have a parent challenge. She told me about a book once as she read it after the challenge. The challenge was over some sex scenes in the book and the challenger declared that while he had not read the book he did not think the morals in the book were what we should be teaching our children. Well it turns out that the sex scene in the book was lifted entirely from the bible. I could hardly control my laughter. I asked her was she sure that that was what the complaint was about. She told me that there was nothing else remotely sexual in the book. So this idiot parent was complaining to the school board that the bible did not teach our kids the right values or morality. Give them enough time and these fools will find something objectionable in everything.

[amber dog democrat]

18. Well its time for a new SANITIZED bible

just take out all the " bad " stuff, or re write it.
Make if safe for kids.
I honestly doubt if many people actually have read it.
This is too funny.

[Nihil]

24. Didn't Jefferson do that?

(Or was it one of the other founders of the Land of the Free?)

[Bono71]

28. Jefferson took parts of the Bible that he found to be

inspiring to all faiths, and compiled them...he wasn't "sanitizing" it.

[Nihil]

31. Thanks

It was a vague memory that he'd edited out large chunks of the Bible
but I couldn't recall the context. Turns out it was with regard to
Deism ... linked from a discussion on a DU forum!

Sorry for the confusion.

[mitchum]

126. He took all of the magic tricks out of it...

made for a very short read

[KitSileya]

41. I thought Bowdler already did that.

Didn't he? That's where we get the verb to bowdlerize.

<update> After some googleing, I must correct myself - Bowdler bowdlerized Shakespeare, not the Bible. Still, same idea.

[KCS72000]

59. Maybe you are thinking of Granger. "Grangerize" n/t

n/t

[VegasWolf]

61. The new coloring book version due out soon. Old version required

reading.

[blondeatlast]

87. "Becoming"--I kid you not. The New Testament meets Cosmo...

From Thomas J. Nelson, one of the world's foremost Bible publishers and the home of Michael Savage.



Note the UPC code at the bottom left...

[Rush1184]

98. Some people just deserved to be slapped....

Seriously.


And to think they are allowed to vote and reproduce.

[TankLV]

112. I remember a scene from "The Waltons" that had the town up in arms because

of the Nazi book burning - so these "enlightened" town people decided to burn all books by Germans - to the horror of John Boy and only some of his family - and they came to a German language version of the bible that was thrown in - it was one of the best TV moments I'd ever seen.

[Briar]

14. If she is against immoral ideas

why doesn't she look at her government and what it is doing in Iraq, Guantanamo Bay, Afghanistan, everywhere!

[eugeneliberal]

17. This sentence explains it::

"Andrea Minnon of Lebanon said she had never heard of "The Catcher in the Rye..."

An adult woman who has never even "heard" of this classic title? Speaks volumes about this woman's lack of education.

[hyphenate]

33. Amen!

And what about the other parent who said he'd never read a book? I hate it when uneducated and ignorant people start trying to make the laws for the rest of us.

While I wasn't the best student in my class when it came to reading required books (I was always into science fiction and stuff), I had the ability to read ANYTHING I wanted to read, regardless of the material. Richard Brautigan, Allen Ginsberg, Jack Kerouac, and other such were among those I remember on our lists of books, as well as The Outsiders, Anne Frank, Animal Farm and 1984. The classics were also expected: Lord of the Flies, Catcher in the Rye, Turn of the Screw and Daisy Miller, Dickens (Great Expectations, Nicholas Nickleby, Tale of Two Cities), Great Gatsby, oh so many others.

To think people are too afraid to let their children see the world through many different eyes, different points of view and perspectives, and have the opportunity to learn from these books, is one of the most unbelievable tragedies in our country.

[deutsey]

52. That's what I thought too.

Typical Moran.

I was also appalled that her conclusion was derived from doing Internet research. Here's a suggestion:

READ THE FUCKING BOOK YOURSELF, YOU TWIT.

[MissMarple]

62. When I was in high school it wasn't assigned. But it was in freshman year

in college. This was in the 60's in the midwest. Maybe, if she's older, she didn't finish high school or her school didn't require it, or she didn't attend college. I do know that kids today are assigned books that we didn't read until later. Unless you read a lot you could miss a variety of literature because it was not required reading in high school. Currently, it is more common to have it read in high school, especially if you are in "advanced" or college prep classes. Having said that, she sounds ignorant.

[Supersedeas]

20. Ninth Graders lead such sheltered lives these days--lets prepare them for

future isolation.

Go Rove Go.

[Bono71]

27. Right...put that book down and pick up the video game,

my 210 pound, 4 foot 10 inch son.

[elehhhhna]

29. SHe "research the book on line?" READ IT, Lady ! READ IT or SHUT UP.

[TrogL]

43. "I don't need to read it to know it's sinful"

I got that line at a parent-teacher conference about a funnny children's book about witches.

I've also had plenty of complaints about the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.

[LiberalFighter]

89. Shouldn't they ban the "Wizard of Oz"?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

115. Because it has "witch" in the title, right?

Even though it was written by one of the most eminent Christian authors of the twentieth century. Sigh!

[tblue37]

124. She read the Sparknotes summary.

Sparknotes are like Cliff Notes, only even shorter and easier, and online.

Reading Sparknotes is not "research." It's what kids do when they don't want to actually read their assignments.

[SemperEadem]

159. I just got finished writing a *long* correction for sparknotes

regarding the history of Elizabethan England they had up on their site--they had so many things so horribly wrong, out of context and fabricated that to let it slide would have been a crime against scholarship and history.

I haven't heard back from them--one other site that I stumbled across had a 'paper' on "Mary Tudor, Queen of Scots". They wrote back and told me that they'd taken the paper off their site after I flayed the paper within in inch of its life.

[Anakin Skywalker]

77. LOL!

[Massachusetts]

30. WTF

:wtf: :crazy: :silly:

[mark414]

32. god bless america

and all the self-righteous assholes that reside within its borders

[Tempest]

34. Tell her to move to Alabama where they plan to burn books

http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/features/story/0,11710,1369643,00.html

Bush is interested in Allen's opinions because Allen is an elected Republican representative in the Alabama state legislature. He is Bush's base. Last week, Bush's base introduced a bill that would ban the use of state funds to purchase any books or other materials that "promote homosexuality". Allen does not want taxpayers' money to support "positive depictions of homosexuality as an alternative lifestyle". That's why Tennessee Williams and Alice Walker have got to go.

[mark414]

35. duh they're not going to burn them

someone asked Allen what he planned to do with all of them, and he said we'd probably just have to dig a big hole and dump em in. duhhh that is not even CLOSE to what the nazis did, this is totally different stop emboldening our enemies.

why do you hate america?

/sarcasm

[Tempest]

44. Burn? Bury? Let's call the whole thing off.

I don't hate America, just what it is becoming.

[mark414]

53. me too

i was just being sarcastic

[Anakin Skywalker]

78. I heard of this. Too rich.

Will the bush base never cease to amuse me in its displays of narrowmindedness?

[Phelan]

174. It wont pass

Please realize that bills like this are often introduced but they don't pass and the person usually does not intend them to pass but rather wants the media coverage and name recognition that comes with it as well as appease some of his base.

Turns out many (I'd say most) of us don't like Roy Moore but you wouldn't know that from the media coverage.

Ohh yeah, us horrible Alabamians at it again...did you know that all of us worship with snakes, only the richest have running water...and last week I finally got sneakers it only took me 3 years to safe up the money.

[DebinTx]

37. Too funny. I read Catcher in parochial school.

She hasn't heard of the book? What back-woods school did she go to, assuming that she ever went.

[pookieblue]

39. what gets me is:

"Andrea Minnon of Lebanon said she had never heard of "The Catcher in the Rye..."

What rock has she been living under. And then she goes and researches online. She didn't even read the book for herself before she started to raise the stink????? Good grief, what kind of books does she want the freshmen to read? The Dick and Jane books???

Oh, I loved some of the comments that came after the article. It appeared they were ripping her a new one.

[janx]

40. This woman doesn't know what morality means. n/t

[juslikagrzly]

42. Books by Chaim Potok

were the controversial books when I was in high school - mid 70's. I remember my junior year English teacher kept copies under lock and key in her supply closet and we had to make a request to read them. For the life of me, I cannot remember why they were considered inappropriate. I read The Chosen and I Am Asher Lev and loved them.

We never seem to learn :(. On the one hand we have hand wringing about lack of reading/writing/critical thinking skills (well-placed hand wringing I might add) and on the other, ignorant adults making goofy decisions about appropriate reading matter. My kids are wonderful readers and they can read anything they want. We discuss and question what they don't understand.

Geesh, I'm just.....disgusted that this is constantly an issue.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

116. "The Chosen"?

That's a beautiful book. I can't think of anything in there that would traumatize a high school student.

I am SO glad I changed my mind about going into public school teaching back in 1971.

[tblue37]

123. When I was in first grade,

my fundy Christian teacher caught me reading a copy of On the Origin of Species. When she sent a note home to my parents saying that I was reading "inappropriate" books, my father, who was not otherwise on my side about anything, told her, "Leave the kid alone. She's obviously smarter than you are."

[drscm]

45. But she has no problem with killing 100,000 innocent Iraqui civilians.

(They all probably read CITR, so deserved to die.)

[bobbyboucher]

46. "after researching the book online"? Why not read it, idiot?

Probably would have taken months.

[LibDemAlways]

47. How stupid is this woman?

Banning a book is a sure-fire way to get kids interested in reading it. I'll bet Spencer already has a copy under his mattress and as he's reading about the shit Holden is putting up with at Pency Prep and his experiences in New York, he's wondering what all the fuss was about.

[Patiod]

48. But it discusses DEPRESSION

"Before filing her complaint, Minnon said, she and her husband researched the book using Sparknotes, an online study guide. She is now reading the book.

"That's where we got a lot of our information about (Holden Caulfield) being with a prostitute, his lying, his drinking, using girls for pleasure and his depression problems," she said."

Well, we don't want kids reading about depression, do we.


/hated "Catcher in the Rye", but want today's children to have to suffer like I did

[FredScuttle]

63. same goes for that Hamlet play...what a downer!

and forget about that lunatic Don Quioxte!

"his depression problems"....Lord Almighty, what country is this?!

[George_S]

88. What I wanna know is, "Where DO the ducks go?" ????

[SemperEadem]

160. Sparknotes is the most inaccurate site for information on anything

if someone says they got their information from Sparknotes, you can rest assured that they are dumber for the effort.

[VegasWolf]

49. What next, henry miller? n/t

[neweurope]

50. The majority of people everywhere are not very educated.

I think it's absurd to let them have a say in what a school teaches.

My own country really embarasses me sometimes but at least parents here don't have influence on the curriculum.

[Javaman]

51. the kids will want to read it more now...

I was living on Long Island during the famous Island Trees book banning era. They banned a whole slew of books, the kids then promptly went out and read them anyway, because it was taboo.
Just more morons wanting to control people. People, especially kids will seek out the truth.

[karlrschneider]

55. We read it in 11th grade English class (1958) and I don't recall any

controversy whatsoever. Our teacher, Mr. Guinn was a VERY rare bird back in those days, open-minded with a strong dislike for censorship of any sort...the polar opposite of my home-room teacher, an idiot antisemitic wingnut who made us read Protocols of the Elders of Zion,
(but we got even with him for that, went to the school the next night, broke in and stole all his copies & burned them - I am normally very much against book burning, but if you know anything about these, you'll understand)

A few years later, after I was out of college, Catcher in the Rye DID get into a big controversy at the same high school (different teacher)...I wrote a scathing LTTE that the Tulsa World published - it was less right-wing back in those days.

And I'm recalling a humorous incident in Mr. Guinn's class...one day we came into the classroom and noticed the words "shit" and "piss" on the blackboard (which was green, actually)...and of course there was a lot of tittering and wondering who would have dared to scribe such "words"!

Some of us thought maybe we should erase them but were too scared Guinn would walk in and see us "rubbing out the evidence" :D

So we just sat there and tried to imagine how this scandalous act would be received.

A few minutes later, he walked in, glanced at the board and said "in case you're wondering who wrote that, it was I"

And what followed was a most interesting lesson on the evolution of the 2 words, neither of which were considered "obscene" long ago.

[Kazak]

56. Booooooooo....

Hisssssssss....

[hickman1937]

57. I don't have a problem with her

decision to withhold the book from her son. Her kid, her call. My big problem is her decision to keep it from all the kids, regardless of their parents wishes, because she doesn't want her son to miss a debate about the book. Actions have consequences. She prefers to rearrange the world to dodge them. Irresponsible, and entitled. Sounds like a rightwinger to me.

[ticapnews]

58. I was posting this in another thread when it was locked...

I don't know anything about these people, but I can't understand how this mother could have grown up around here and never have heard of the book before. I don't know a high school that doesn't assign it to either freshmen or sophomore classes.

If she finishes reading the book, maybe she'll see that the story does not exactly glorify the things Holden Caulfield does. It would give her a great opening as a parent to discuss these things with her son at a time when a parent should be discussing them. Otherwise, she can leave it to his schoolmates to teach him instead, and I'm rather confident she won't like what they tell him...

My uncle is about as hard-line Christian Right as you can find in this state, and he was on the school board in a very conservative Maine town back in the 60's and 70's when this debate started. My aunt wanted the book banned, but wouldn't read it because she didn't want that "trash" to pollute her mind. My uncle read it, decided it had value in an educational environment, as long as it was dicussed thoroughly - and if parents didn't like it, they could talk to their kids and explain why. He also expressed doubts at setting this kind of precedent. He had fought the Nazis and Italian fascists and was very protective of art and literature. What happens if parents decide they don't want screenings of "The 10 Commandments" (as an example) even though it's an incredible piece of cinema? I don't put any stock in the "Left Behind" books, but I don't think we need to ban them because they borrow an idea from the Bible. That is what my uncle, despite his passionate religious beliefs, voted to protect 30 years ago. That is what we need to remind people like Mrs. Minnon they are threatening when they start to talk about banning things.

Didn't mean to preach, the rambling just started and took on a life of its own... :)

[lakelly]

60. Can I hear an Amen!

You weren't rambling, you are right on the mark, as was your right wing uncle. Its interesting, my grandparents were conservative types and didn't graduate high school. Yet they were both people who learned to read and then read all types of material. More importantly they were "thinking people", people who wanted to be informed. Today, right wing types dont want to think.They just want a messiah they can follow and damn the truth. Its so discouraging to hear about people who are so shut off from reality and who want it that way. Their ignorance effects us as they are voters too. They are a large part of the reason Bush was reelected.
Here's a suggestion Mrs M. Buy the book, start to read it and if you get to the unacceptable material then stop and have a conversation with your 14 year old. I have a 14 year old too. Trust me they have much more to worry about than Catcher in the Rye.

[ticapnews]

64. Also, attacking this woman is not going to win us any points...

I applaud her for getting involved in her child's education. Too many parents fail to take an interest. Sure, they're around for soccer games and dance recitals, but reading, math and science? Too much hassle. Not enough time. Etc.

We need to engage people like this. We need to listen to what they have to say. Not belittle, insult or marginalize them. We need to counter the argument made by the Religious Right and regurgitated in the corporate media and demonstrate to her why our ideas are better. We have to at least make the effort. Criticizing her for her beliefs will not help us.

We need help from our blue friends in red states (and apparently blue people in blue states) to seek out these people and talk to them. All we need to do is convince small numbers of people in some of these communities that we're right and we can turn the electoral college around. That is how we take back the White House. That is how we take back Congress.

Show them how our ideas are better.

[truth2power]

66. I say again....

It's not about logic. :eyes:

[stanwyck]

67. sounds nice

but I'm not optimistic about changing the mind of a woman who's never heard of Catcher in the Rye.(how is that even possible? Seriously. And she wants to be in charge of the curriculum?) She hasn't read the book. But she doesn't believe it expouses the correct values. Why teach to the lowest denominator? This is a problem in our country. We keep lowering the bar. Why not ask her to read the book? Why not ask her to withhold her judgements until she's actually done her homework? Why the kowtowing? Our country needs to ramp up. We're not going to do our kids any favors by rolling over for every parent who has a problem with the curriculum. Let the educators decide the syllabus. If she has a problem with it, she can formally make a complaint. (I suggest, for credibility, she actually read the book). Let's give our teachers the authority to teach. When we continually cave in to parents, we lose. She has options: Christian school. Home school. Having her son read a different book she chooses. Why, she can just cherrypick his entire school schedule. Why she's at it, why not throw out those pesky science classes (full of lies) and the dreaded calculus and trig.
Sorry. But I think school should be about education. Learning. New ideas from a variety of perspectives. Not just what suits Mama.

[Anakin Skywalker]

79. You Right On!

[ticapnews]

99. I don't disagree...

It isn't going to be easy to talk to people like this, but it is possible. My boss was a dogface in the Vietnam era and a lifelong Republican, but I got him on board for Clark and convinced him to vote for Kerry. And even if we can't convince her, there are people out there in the middle who see the issue as "This woman cares about her kids and these people are attacking her" which does us no good. We can be more constructive than that.

In her defense I would point out that she is, in fact, reading the book. Yes, she did go online to get information, and I suspect the sites she chose had an agenda, but she is making an effort.

Which route is more likely to have a positive result:
Saying
"You're ignorant"
or
"I appreciate your concerns, but teachers are trained and hired to make these decisions and have chosen this book for their classes for decades. There may be parts of the book that you find objectionable and I hope you'll take the opportunity to discuss those with your child."

Not only does that option at least give us a chance to reach people like Mrs. Minnon, but those impartial observers in the middle (aka swing voters) can now see the debate in a new light and will be far more receptive to our arguments. And it doesn't really take a Herculean effort to change a few minds.

There are millions of people out there just like her: uninformed (or ill-informed) on issues and making what we see as illogical choices at the ballot box. These people are going to continue to vote. Our choices are to reach out to them and try to persuade them; or to ignore them and watch as they vote en masse for whomever Jerry Falwell or Faux News tells them to. I think we stand a much better chance of winning elections by following option #1 than #2... :shrug:

[mitchum]

128. But she IS ignorant

[mitchum]

127. Thank you, stanwyck!

couldn't agree more

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

72. She didn't get involved in her child's education..rather than READ the

book, she looked it up online...shortcut research is NOT getting involved in her child's education...he is 14..he has HAIR DOWN THERE...if she can't handle the thought that her son with HAIR DOWN THERE will be reading materials from a book about a young man who has come of age with HAIR DOWN THERE..then she is trying to keep her child as ignorant as her..and one can ONLY PRESUME she is as ignorant as a box of fucking rocks if she has never heard of Catcher in the Rye.

[stanwyck]

75. again, Thanks!

time to stop celebrating ignorance as some sort of badge of honor. Time to stop patting parents on the back for being conscientious when what they're doing is being controlling parents who place their own ego above their child's future. Some (not all!) home school parents don't teach their children the necessary science or math. These kids will not be able to pursue careers which require proficiency in those areas. They're being limited. Unfairly. It's a form of child abuse. It's about control. And ego. The children lose.

[TankLV]

113. CONFRONTING this ignorant idiot IS the right thing to do. It's not

"attacking".

Shes an idiot.

She deserves any criticisms that come her way and worse.

What she SAID and BELIEVES is simply inexcusable and unnacceptable.

She's the one who openend her mouth and removed all doubt as to WHAT and WHO she is.

[SemperEadem]

161. and that is where it should end with her

"I applaud her for getting involved in her child's education"

her child. no one else's. end of story.

If she wants her child to grow up as ignorant as her, then that's fine. However, she's no one else's mother in that class and should not be making decisions for another child's education.

[truth2power]

65. "researching the book online"

So she didn't READ the book. She went online and took someone's else's word for it. Yeah, that's using her critical thinking skills alright! :argh:

[JoFerret]

68. It's not as filthy as the Bible

.

[HuckleB]

74. Illiteracy breeding more illiteracy.

How sheltered or low functioning does one have to be to have never been exposed to Catcher In The Rye?

Unbelievable.

[stanwyck]

76. conservatives seem

determined to raise their children to fail. They limit their knowledge of birth control, with disastrous results. Thus begins a cycle of poverty. They limit their knowledge of the sciences, thus restricting their career choices. No medicine or engineering for you! It's control. Education scares them. The kids might learn something and disagree with Mom and Dad. They might move beyond their control. It's abuse. It's keeping their lives small. I hope this kid finds a way out.

[Anakin Skywalker]

80. Researched the book online?

Now I have to wonder just what sources she's been reading the synopsis or reviews of "Catcher in the Rye" from. How many of you want to bet they include fundy, rightwing sites that have a list of "bad books" and "immoral cultural things"? Anybody care to Google these? Post your findings right here so we can all have a laugh.

[blondeatlast]

83. Never heard of "TCITR?"

Please...

84. catcher in the rye

there is no way to combat militant stupidity. look where it's got george bush.
Stupidity Wins!!! Yayyyy!

[Kathy in Cambridge]

90. Lebanon. ME Political Contributions

gives a pretty good idea of the town's values:

http://www.city-data.com/elec/elec-LEBANON-ME.html

Wallstrom, Peter (Peter Wallstrom & Company/Builder), (Zip code: 04027) $365 to BUILD POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE OF THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF HOME BUILDERS on 07/13/04
Beach, Katherine W Ms. (Homemaker), (Zip code: 04027) $250 to REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE on 02/23/04
Sewell, Chris L (GREAT BROOK LUMBER/PRESDIENT), (Zip code: 04027) $400 to NATIONAL REPUBLICAN CONGRESSIONAL COMMITTEE on 04/04/03
Boivin, Daniel Mr. (Gateway Auctions/Owner), (Zip code: 04027) $500 to NATIONAL REPUBLICAN CONGRESSIONAL COMMITTEE on 07/21/04
Wallingford, Harvey (Colonial Homes Inc./VP-Operations), (Zip code: 04027) $500 to MAINE DEMOCRATIC STATE COMMITTEE on 10/17/03
SMITH, JILL MRS. (NOBLE JUNIOR HIGH SCHOOL/TEACHER), (Zip code: 04027) $1500 to BUSH-CHENEY '04 (PRIMARY) INC. on 11/17/03

[WindRavenX]

92. Sheltering children from reading...

...is possibly one of the greatest evils out there.

[allalone]

93. so many reactions to this going through my mind

How long have the schools been so bad that so many people don't or can't read? How many times do we have to have this same argument? I guess the high school I went to was strange. Nobody freaked about what we read.
Nasty narrow minded people are afraid of ideas because it questions the beliefs they hang on to with a deathlike grip. My mind is made up, don't bother me with facts.
Every once in a while I think, oh, it must be nice to be uninformed, indeed, dumb. Not to read the news, not to know what is happening in the world. But all of a sudden I realized it's very hard to be determinedly stupid. You have to be ever vigilant. You must make sure no one has any ideas or fun. It's hard work!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

118. Because of the holy, sacred value of "local control," idiotic and/or

apathetic people elect idiotic and/or corrupt schoolboards full of people who say, "Our kids don't need to learn all that nonsense. Why waste money on art, music, literature, languages, and science when the football field needs to be Astroturfed?"

That's the problem with schools all over the country.

[VegasWolf]

94. Ban Moms that Ban Books. n/t

[CBHagman]

95. I remember wondering what all the fuss was about.

I guess I read "Catcher in the Rye" when I was about 15, and I'd heard it was supposed to be so racy. Big surprise: nothing that shocked me even slightly. And I was a sheltered, nerdy teenager, too.

The thing that kills me about this story is the attempt to decide what the whole class will read. No, no, no! Don't go trying to parent other people's children unless said parents are violent or otherwise unfit parents.

Besides, "Catcher in the Rye" is so utterly moving. The freshman class will be better for having read it.

[Mr Creosote]

101. Online research

There is an argument to be made that some books' themes are too strong for young children - but in this case I would have thought that 14 year olds were probably about the ideal age group for this book - but then, of course, I have actually read it. My son is 15 and I can't think of any reason in the world why he shouldn't read it.
But what worries me most about this is the woman's trust in "online research". After all, "online research" will reveal, amongst other things, that President Kennedy was actually shot by Elvis, acting under the influence of Ann-Margret. Read the book you numpty.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

102. Despite the uproar

She is doing an entirely correct thing and shouldn't be abused for it.

No, I don't agree with her. It's a great book. But if a parent THINKS a book is wrong, there is a process in place to appeal it. That is what she is doing. THAT is democracy. She is being a local activist. Why abuse her just because she dares disagree with you and me?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

103. Bullshit. SHE NEVER READ THE BOOK.

She is NOT entitled to have a book banned if she never read the damn thing. Why should a whole town be punished for one complete idiot? Her sense of entitlement is revolting.

I went to Catholic school and we read "Catcher" in ninth grade. :wtf: is wrong with these idiots?

[AliciaKeyedUp]

110. She is entitled to object

That is the law. I happen to think it's a good law to allow parents to get involved. And yes, it IS a controversial novel. I just happen to believe it's a good one.

[bettyellen]

119. i would say getting involved means reading the book first, wouldn't you?

[AliciaKeyedUp]

130. I would recommend it

But I don't think it's a requirement. Tons has been written about the novel after all.

[SemperEadem]

163. you miss the point

no one said that she can't get involved in her own child's education. What we're saying is that it's not her place to dictate education decision for other people's children.

she should work out an alternative reading assignment for her own child.

And condoning getting second, third hand spin on something a responsible ADULT should do for themselves to form their own opinion from the source speaks volumes.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

167. NO, you are missing the point

It is precisely her role to get involved in the public debate about whether to teach this book. Should the jurisdiction decide in that process to nix the book, then that is democracy.

I am happy any time a parent gets involved at all. Trust me, it's too rare at least with my children's schools.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

122. It's great that she is an involved parent. BUT she is NOT

entitled to disrupt the learning process for the rest of the school-especially since she has no knowledge of the book except what she read from a dubious internet source.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

131. Actually, she IS entitled to do exactly what she is doing

It's called the law. There is a process to appeal the use of the book. She is using that process.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

135. No, she isn't using the law.

she is going to the school committee. it is not going before a judge. get your facts straight.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

137. Indirectly she is

School board is set up by laws. They in turn set up a regulatory process. And, in many states. parental involvement is indeed supported by law.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

138. That's really a stretch. Your arguments are downright silly

and very, very transparent. :eyes:

[AliciaKeyedUp]

139. Hmm, I'm arguing for parental involvement

And saying I still like this particular book. Gosh, I guess that makes me a bad person.

You are the one being silly and transparent. The classic -- anyone who disagrees with you must be evil. And I thought the right had a hold on the thought police.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

140. I'm just noting a consistent trend in your posts

I'm not the thought police, but you vaguely sound like someone who used to post here.

I am completely open to different ideas. I'm not open to RW drivel.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

141. How many thousands of people post at DU?

And now the ominous, I "vaguely sound like someone who used to post here." My god, are you related to McCarthy? Does your tune ever change?

Yeah, sure you're open to different ideas, as long as you come up with them or agree with them 100%.

[Name removed]

142. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

149. Since I neither revisit nor disrupt

Your post is as meaningless as your others.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

144. Uneducated parents getting books banned that they haven't read

(and are SO undereducated that they've never even heard of them) is obstructionist. It's WAAAYYYY too generous to even PRETEND it's involvement.

[bettyellen]

146. Well said! Thank you.

.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

150. No it's not

Not everyone is as well read as many people here at DU. That doesn't eliminate their right to an opinion, especially on a book about which so much has been written.

It is possible to have an opinion of a movie and whether your kids should see it based solely on movie reviews, for instance.

All of that said, it's a damn good book. I'm just not willing to skewer a parent who cares enough about a child to get involved.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

155. Yes, they have a right to an uninformed opinion

You cannot compare a book with a movie which has commercial ratings. So what much has been written. Again, this woman is obstructing education NOT empowering it. She's an ignoramus and her kid will be one too if this child's educational empowerment is left to an IGNORANT mother...btw...you are all over the place on this...much has been written about the book...but mommy who has the intellectual agility of a small soap dish has never heard of it?

[AliciaKeyedUp]

168. Of course you can compare it

Even when I was in school, sadly too long ago, people relied on Cliff Notes to explain books in great detail. So is that an invalid way to discover what's in the book?

I am not all over the place on this. I am defending the process, defending the woman's right to it AND defending the book.

[Ms_Mary]

157. Of course people have opinions about things they know nothing

That does NOT give them the right to force those opinions on others. People like Bush think it does, but that doesn't make it so.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

169. She is not forcing it on anyone, that's fascism

She is complaining through a process. If the book is eliminated through that process, then that is democracy.

[SemperEadem]

164. you mean 'eliminate their right to quote spin'

taking spin instead of reading the source yourself is lazy and evidence of being undereducated. Perfect for being a CommieMart greeter.

[Ms_Mary]

148. She is attempting to FORCE sensorship and that is wrong

If she doesn't want HER child to read the book, let them request an alternate assignment. That is her right, as much as I disagree with the entire thing. But when she startes infringing on everyone else, she has far overstepped the boundaries of anything remotely appropriate.

I abhor censorship, especially literary.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

151. Do you oppose the whole concept of community review?

For books? I don't. I don't want Catcher being taught in 4th grade for example. If they tried that, I would oppose it.

[Ms_Mary]

156. Yes, I do. Not to mention, it's unlikely that anyone would

teach Catcher to 10 year olds. Try using a more realistic example to make your point.

I abhor literary sensorship so much that it bears repeating.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

170. There you go

We have a basic disagreement. I support community review. What might fly in New York or LA would not fly in rural Kansas. To expect communities to give over complete control of their children is unrealistic and downright crazy.

[Bridget Burke]

165. I don't oppose community review....

Nobody here has said the woman should be thrown in jail for speaking her mind.

They're just expressing their opinion that she's an ignorant fool for wanting to prevent the entire younger generation from reading a book she's too stupid to read.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

171. And there are those who oppose community involvement entirely

So you are being more reasonable than others. I don't think any book is so horrible that we can't debate it and decide.

[Bridget Burke]

173. Which post here opposes community involvement?

Most are just remarking on the ignorance of the stupid woman.

Edited to correct: I did notice one poster who said she opposed community review.

Most haven't.

I've also reviewed your other posts. At least you're consistent.

[SemperEadem]

166. that argument is non sequitur to the issue being discussed

the school board isn't making 4th graders (10 yr olds)read The Catcher In the Rye. The issue is 14/15 yr old freshmen. 10 yr olds can't understand the context in which the book is written because they are not old enough to understand the context.

Your argument is false.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

172. Parents have a right to say they don't want a book taught

Every right in fact.

[mitchum]

129. Are there any conservative positions you won't defend?

[AliciaKeyedUp]

132. Most of them

Nice personal attack there. Is that all you bring to the table, 'cause it ain't much.

[mitchum]

133. I call them as I have seen them

However,as an attempt to make amends for what you consider to be my personal attack: I sincerely think you should consider a career in contemporary Democratic leadership.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

143. I think that is an insult as well

If nothing else, I'd fight to win a hell of a lot harder.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

134. No shit!

i'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed...

[Brent Turbeaux]

153. How many have read the Bible cover to cover & still have strong opinions?

I fail to see the right wing-y-ness Alica's posts. As far as I can discern, she's just saying that the mother is working, quite legally, within a system in the way it was intended to be used. If the rules don't state that the mother has to have read the book, then she's going by the rules, isn't she? That's just a fact, and while it may not be an awesome fact, there's nothing wrong with pointing it out. Whether the mother is an idiot or not is another question entirely, and I think the answer to that one is obvious. But the point is, this is how the system's set up, and you can't stop people from using it without first changing the system. There's a wide spectrum of beliefs, even within democratic or progressive circles, and not everyone falls 100% in line with one precise set of opinions. But if that's all that's allowed, I'm already bored.

That being said, I have very strong opinions about the bible, and christianity in general, but I've admittedly read very little of the bible. I'm sure many here are in the same boat; but in fairness, most don't go causing a stink about things we're not very well read in, either, so this woman still kidna cracks me up.

[SemperEadem]

162. because she is interfering with the education of other teenagers

not just her own child. It'd be different if she asked the teacher to give her son an alternative reading assignment. But she's wanting the school board to ban the book for all students. Not just her child. ALL STUDENTS. Who elevated her to the position where she dictates curriculum to children not related to her?

In fact, if parents feel like she does, then only the parents who object should have the opportunity to have their child assigned an alternative book... otherwise, those parents who wish that their children be EDUCATED should ensure that the class goes on as scheduled with the reading of the book.

[pdxmom]

104. This makes me see "red"

I was raised by 2 educators, and my dad was a principal. Never once did they tell me I couldn't read something. They encouraged me to read and if they were concerned about a book, we talked about it. To this day, I'm a voracious reader with a mountain of knowledge about all kinds of topics. Why do people think that keeping kids from learning is a good thing? What, exactly, does this mom think she's protecting the youth of her community from?

[Puglover]

107. Who we should be feeling sorry for

is her poor kid. Gawd, Ill bet after school in the school yard is no picnic for this poor schmoe.
Bully: "So let me get this straight...your Mommy doesn't want ME to read this book???"
Kid: <shiver>
I remember 9th grade and kids could be meaner then shit.

[Zomby Woof]

109. book-banning fascists can eat shit

That being said, one of the best reasons all kids deserve a chance to read 'Catcher' is to find out for themselves what a piece of self-absorbed pretentious pseudo-angst-ridden shit it is. The freedom to read includes the freedom to read overrated tripe!

[genieroze]

111. I never read it.

If you look at all the video games, movies and music 9th graders watch and listen to, how bad could it be? Heck at least they will be reading. These are some of the same people who want Harry Potter banned. My kids had to read "To Kill A Mockingbird" as did I in 9th grade. I'm sure there are people who would gripe about that book as well.

[Dr Fate]

117. Rememeber that part in the Bible were that dude "spills his seed..."

on the road after having sex w/ a prostitute?

Or that part where the dad sold his daughters into slavery?

Or that part that talks about having sex w/ "beasts" and "men laying with men."

I guess high school kids should not read the bible either- it mentions acts that are immoral.

[XemaSab]

120. Online research?

Online research is a great place to go.... for laughs.

www.family.org 's review of the album "Kid A" by Radiohead almost made me pee. Under "redeeming social values" they said the line "If you try the best you can, the best you can is good enough" was the only positive thing in the whole album. Apparently they didn't listen to the rest of the lyrics AT ALL to think that that line was meant in a non-ironic, positive manner. Hello? Context??? (I love Radiohead, but BOY they have some downer lyrics/songs/albums.)

(Focus on the Family alone is good for HOURS of entertainment.)

I read "Dominion" by Matthew Scully last year, which takes a conservative Christian view of our treatment of animals. He was a speechwriter for W, so he's no bead-wearing hippie. The book makes some really well thought out points that animals are God's creatures and we have a responsibility to treat them with dignity.

This online review I read of it said basically what Ms Minnon said: "I didn't read it, but it sucks." Their complaint about the book was that instead of focusing on treatment of animals, it should have focused on the unborn. Uh.... there's a whole chapter on the unborn in the book, MORAN.

These people don't even know they're embarassing themselves.

[Cheswick2.0]

121. she is right, parents do have a right to have a say in the kids education

it's just that she's a freaking small minded moron and the parents with some sense will let her get away with this.
The obviously solution is for her child to opt out of reading this particular book and spend the time doing independent work on some other novel.

[mitchum]

125. What kind of ignorant fuckwit has never heard of "The Catcher in the Rye"?

FUCK
FUCK
FUCK
FUCK ANDREA MINNON

[Dark]

136. That book sucked. If I was that kid, I'd say good riddance.

Still shouldn't ban the book, but if I was in that kid's position, I'd be more than happy to not read that garbage.

[LynnTheDem]

145. Did she "research" Dild O'Reilly's children's book?

She probably owns a signed copy.

Faschists suck, be they German ones...or American ones.

[0007]

152. "The Ship of Fools"

Folks like these tell us what we should read?

[leesa]

154. Never heard of it before, never read it, but calls for banning.