Glendive MT man plans dinosaur museum to teach 'creation truth'

[Ediacara]

Faith in fossils: Glendive man plans dinosaur museum to teach 'creation truth'


DAVID GRUBBS/Gazette Staff
Otis Kline shows what he believes
is a Triceratops bone at his fossil
camp near Glendive.

By ED KEMMICK
Of The Gazette Staff

GLENDIVE - Otis Kline is hoping to build what he says will be the second-largest dinosaur and fossil museum in Montana, complete with a theater, laboratory and 13 full-size dinosaur replicas.

This would be a dinosaur museum with a twist, however.

Kline wants to use the fossils to teach visitors a strictly biblical account of creation, to "absolutely demolish," as he says on his Web site, "evolutionism's nonsense."

Mainstream scientists are as certain that the earth is billions of years old as they are that it is round, but Kline says he believes that the earth is 6,500 to 7,000 years old. He believes that the other planets, the moon, our sun and all the stars are as old as the earth, and that dinosaurs were among the animals that trooped, two by two, onto Noah's ark.

Kline, the founder of FACT - Foundation Advancing Creation Truth - already has a 37-acre fossil camp just outside Glendive's city limits, where groups of like-minded amateurs can help with excavations and learn about creationism.

More at the Billings Gazette

[ixion]

1. oi vey

:eyes:

[hatrack]

2. So why do they need to dig in the ground to learn about creation?

Shouldn't they just sit in their rooms and quietly concentrate on Bible study? :eyes:

[hlthe2b]

3. that surely is some potent kool-aid they've been drinking....

:eyes:

[ET Awful]

4. So . . . they had dinosaurs on the ark?

That would be the same ark that scientists have already determined could not have been built in the dimensions and of the materials specified in the bible and had any sort of structural integrity right?

Come to think of it, a few brachiosaurs or the like would have pretty much occupied the whole ark.

[yardwork]

7. I still can't get past the lions and tigers and bears

all side-by-side with their prey!

I guess God gave them all valium or something to keep them from eating one another?

I don't mean to make fun. The Biblical Flood story is an ancient human myth. Similar God-destroys-the-world-which-is-then-reborn stories exist in every human culture. Jesus's story is another example.

The fact that the world suffers natural disasters, only to recover and give birth to more life, is a truth that is very important to humans. It is matched by the fact that humans themselves suffer terrible disasters but somehow recover and move on. It's worth studying and revering this story.

It's just sad to see it used in a twisted and controlling manner to attempt to wipe out hundreds of years of human understanding in science and other fields.

[abburdlen]

21. lions and tigers and bears?

I could never wrap my head around the fresh water fish problem. If the world floods, everythings an ocean right? Only salt water-less salt but still salt water. So how did the fresh water fish survive? Was there a nemo-noah that built a freshwater ark under the sea? Did God pass around plastic baggies?

Oh yeah, it was a miracle I ought to just stop asking questions.

[Blue_Tires]

41. the insect species ALONE

would have taken up all the space in an ark of any size

[ET Awful]

63. I want to know why Noah didn't just tell God to bugger off when

it came to cock-roaches :)

[Thor_MN]

60. wassa matta? You don't have any faith? ANYTHING can be explained via

"gawd's will". If you can't explain it, it's gawd's will and you aren't meant to know. It's a simple matter to change physics in that mind set. I wonder how these people are able to function in the real world where attemping to violate physical laws can have dire consequences.

[dethl]

5. Wait a second....where are the dinosaurs in the bible?

n/t

[barb162]

6. let's just say the ark was about a hundred times bigger than we

"think" because to hold a few dinosaurs and all those other animals, well, that ol'ark had to be the size of the QE2 (or five of them)

[Skarbrowe]

9. Yes,, but it could have been a spaceship!

Oh, wrong theory.

pardon me:silly:

[Mokito]

22. I Hear Ya!

Fundamentalist Christianity - fascinating. These people actually believe that the bi.., er, the world is 12 thousand years old. Swear to God. What the..? Based on what? I asked them. "Well we looked at all the people in the Bible and we added 'em up all the way back to Adam and Eve, their ages - 12 thousand years." Well how fucking scientific, okay. I didn't know that you'd gone to so much trouble. That's good. You believe the world's 12 thousand years old? "That's right." Okay I got one word to ask you, a one word question, ready? "uh huh." Dinosaurs. You know the world's 12 thousand years old and dinosaurs existed, they existed in that time, you'd think it would have been mentioned in the fucking Bible at some point. "And lo Jesus and the disciples walked to Nazareth. But the trail was blocked by a giant brontosaurus... with a splinter in his paw. And O the disciples did run a shriekin': 'What a big fucking lizard, Lord!' But Jesus was unafraid and he took the splinter from the brontosaurus's paw and the big lizard became his friend. And Jesus sent him to Scotland where he lived in a loch for O so many years inviting thousands of American tourists to bring their fat fucking families and their fat dollar bills. And oh Scotland did praise the Lord. Thank you Lord, thank you Lord. Thank you Lord."

Get this, I actually asked one of these guys, OK, Dinosaurs fossils - how does that fit into you scheme of life? Let me sit down and strap in. He said, "Dinosaur fossils? God put those there to test our faith." Thank God I'm strapped in right now here man. I think God put you here to test my faith, Dude. You believe that? "uh huh." Does that trouble anyone here? The idea that God.. might be.. fuckin' with our heads? I have trouble sleeping with that knowledge. Some prankster God running around: "Hu hu ho. We will see who believes in me now, ha ha." "I am God, I am a prankster." "I am killing Me." You know, You die and go to St. Peter... "Did you believe in dinosaurs?" "Well, yeah. There was fossils everywhere" Thuh "Aaaaaaarhhh!" "You fuckin idiot." "Flying lizards, you're a moron. God was fuckin' with you!" "It seemed so plausible, ahhhh!" "Enjoy the lake of fire, fucker!"

Bill Hicks - Revelations

[Candide]

27. God put fossils here to test our faith

and now He gets a kick out of watching us kill each other for fossil(fuel) ha! he showed us.......(rolling my eyes)

[Thor_MN]

62. Checking my back for a "Kick Me" sign made by god........

god being such a prankster after all....

[one_true_leroy]

24. hidden carefully, gotta interpret...

the theory I've heard kicked about by fundies is that the giants mentioned in Genesis which God was trying to destroy with the flood were none other than the dinosaurs. Which also (to them) explains why they are buried under sediments.

[MARALE]

29. Didn't the giants mate with the women of earth?

EEEEEWWWWWW...
Think of the babies, I thought my kid was hard to give birth to. Did the ladies lay eggs? So many ways to go with this...

[atommom]

83. Eeek! Let's hope they laid eggs. Do you suppose there's still some

dino DNA in the fundies of the world? It would explain a lot...

[leftofcool]

33. Dinosaurs in the Bible

are probably in the same place an the unicorn.

left of cool

[denverbill]

8. Why do we have to share a country with cretins like this?

The fucking Milky Way is 150,000 light years wide. Even if we were in the exact center of the galaxy, light from the most distant part of the galaxy wouldn't reach us for another 144,000 years if the universe were only 6000 years old. How does he explain the fact that we can see the entire Milky Way galaxy? How does he explain the fact the we can see the Andromeda galaxy which is 2.3 million light years away? Is he just going to say God willed that the light go faster than the speed of light or claim that the stars really aren't as far away as we claim or the God started the light 1/2 way there or what? What other science is he willing to throw out the window in his pursuit of 'wisdom'?

[muriel_volestrangler]

10. Typically they claim the speed of light has changed

over time, or changes outside the solar system, or some similar fudge.

Other science they have to ignore includes ice cores that show more than 6000 years of layers.

[Liberal Veteran]

37. So they are saying light has......evolved over time?

Bwah-ha-ha.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

38. just fyi a while ago there were articles

about the speed of light changing http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996092

i have no agenda here and no love for creationist, i just rember hearing about this a few months ago and thought i would pass it on, it was pretty interesting.

again i am not saying this backs up any creationist arguments.

[barb162]

12. better get used to it; there are more and more of them all the time

It's like they are coming out of the woodwork. I have noticed there are more fundies on mainstream news shows talking about why religion and government should not be separate, etc. Actually this will all fit in very well with an agrarian or barter economy; no point having people trained in college or science when all the tech, science, etc., type jobs have been shipped overseas.

I suspect that even as people lose their good-paying jobs some of them turn fundie as then they have the lord to fall back on.

[malachi]

13. "more fundies on mainstream news shows"

I think that this can only work out in favor of those that still possess at least one functioning remaining brain cell. Let them show how truly fucked up they really are and their days will be numbered. They'll soon be forced to scurry back to their shitholes and consult their bible myths for eternity. Kind of how it is when you turn on a light and the cockroaches dive for cover.

[barb162]

15. I sincerely hope you are right, BUT

I was watching this one fundie minister in the last two days on some mainstream talk show and he made a really good case for his point of joining religion and politics IF, IF!!! you knew NO early American history. Most Americans don't and that is the problem; it's really not been taught very well at all in the schools. (I dare you to find if more than 20% of adults know the actual significance of 7/4 other than that is fireworks day and a day off and it has "something" to do with American independence but they're not quite sure.)

He basically said the founding fathers wanted religion in politics and governemnt and that we were started as a religious nation (Pilgrims) and the first colleges like Harvard were started to train ministers. Then Harvard got away from its first and real mission. The interviewer didn't really challenge him because, again, most people don't know the ins and outs of early American history. The fact is that most of what the guy said was pure hogwash and the founding fathers were religious men who wanted a secular state but I can see most people listening to this POS and buying into his crap because they literally don't know any better.

[malachi]

20. I really hope that you are wrong, but deep down I know that you are 100%

on the money. In converstions with people when the discussion leads to some historically significant date,I can't tell you how many times I've heard someone say that they didn't know something that you would assume that everyone knows, because it happened before they were born! Incedible! Some of these humps are college educated. Sad.

[barb162]

28. thanks for that. What was so intriguing about this guy was that he

had a somewhat quiet, scholarly affect, he didn't come off as one of these yelling nutcase ministers. So it was really devious from the start. But almost nothing he said was really factual (other than the Harvard College bit) but he wove a tiny few facts together with the total hogwash in such a way that it sounded reasonable to his case. I mean if Jefferson, Madison, Washington, etal wanted religioun in the Constitution and other documents they would have put it in. They were good draftsmen and could easily have written religious content in if they had wanted.

[countryjake]

25. I listened to the same show.

I'm having a senior moment & can't remember what program that was, but I know I desperately wanted someone to discuss the Salem trials period of American history with that jerk. His high talk of divinity schools being founded, while at the same time, (must of been their night jobs) all of those prigs were out murdering Native Americans & denying their religion & culture & also murdering anyone who dared to not consider them "heathens". Was it Nightline?

[northzax]

well, hi is sorta right on one thing

Havard was a ministry school. So were most of the now great schools in the 1600's, there were only three things to go to school for at that time, to learn War, to learn culture and to learn religion. Big deal.

[barb162]

31. It easily could have been Nightline and Koppel who can be

a killer interviewer if he doesn't like someone, really didn't probe that well if at all. Because if you don't know American history, you can't refute or question what the guy said. It was as if this guy was spinning a history class except most of the "facts" were spurious. If it wasn't Koppel it was on around that time of the evening.

My problem is I switch from one talk show to another and nobody should ever ask me for a link because I don't remember which show I heard what on...I just know I heard it and that's it.

[Zhade]

87. Never underestimate religion's ability to cloud the mind.

I know, I used to be a quasi-fundie.

[ScrewyRabbit]

11. Go to town, whackjob

Invite your cycloptic bible-thumpers to your "museum" and learn them some "truth".

[MGKrebs]

14. Here is their resident "scientist" apparently...

Dennis Petersen
"Coming from a career in museum work, his academic training is in science and history (B.S. 1968 California State University; M.A. 1971 State University of New York)."

So the "science" part come from a "Bachelor of Science" (in what we don't know), and presumably the "history" is the M.A.?

http://www.creationresource.org/speaker_biographies.htm

[Ediacara]

46. Found the info

Dennis Petersen, B.S. in Environmental Resources, California State University Sacramento; M.A., Museum Administration, State University of New York.

From this page.

[MGKrebs]

51. Wow. Nice work!

So it's faith based science since it's not paleontology or something related!

Ya' know, the world just LOOKS round. It's an optical illusion.

[XemaSab]

91. Gotta wonder

What "Environmental Resources" education was like in 1968.

It was pre every environmental law.

The "resources" part is what really piques my interest.

Why does this sound suspiciously like code for logging, fishing, mining, etc.?

[mmonk]

16. We have to be the most backward

industrialized nation on the planet. Is any of this nut job project getting federal funding?

[countryjake]

17. What's his theory on where they all got to?

Did all of those evil-infested dinosaurs lose their morals, so bejesus sent a plague of HIV upon them? And it was good.

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

18. picture noah coaxing t rex onto the ark

come on, boy. that's a good boy.

[countryjake]

26. Or some of those Raptors from Jurassic Park!

ROTF!

[Liberal Veteran]

39. Let's see...the ark was supposed to be about 45 ft high...

...and the tallest dinosaur was suppose to be about 115 ft tall.

Obviously there there is no conflict there.

[Ediacara]

47. There were no dinosaurs 115 feet tall

115 feet long, yes, but not tall. Funny thing is though..... there is no room for two of every dinosaur on the ark even if you pureed them in a blender and poured them in, let alone the rest of all other animals.

[MissB]

48. "pureed them in a blender"

ROFL!

[Liberal Veteran]

49. And then you have all the permian animals as well as the...

...the animals that came after the dinosaurs up to and including the pleistocene megafauna.

[Ms_Mary]

69. As a kid, I thought the dinosaurs drowned in the big flood

because they couldn't fit in the ark. As an adult, I realize this idea holds many logical fallacies.

[VegasWolf]

19. The nuts are really falling out of the tree after the election! n/t

[northzax]

23. oh, I wanna go! I wanna go!

I love it! It is whackjobs like this that make roadtrips fun!

[donheld]

56. OK we'll let you go but,

when he starts telling you the earth is flat kill the m*ther f*cker

[foo_bar]

88. the biggest ball of swine in Minnesota

[VegasWolf]

30. Wonder if he will have a 80 foot tall, concrete Jesus out front? n/t

[geniph]

32. "I don't understand it, therefore I deny it!"

the whole dimwit mantra. Actual science, such as earth sciences, requires too much cogitation, so it must be rejected in favor of simplistic, childish explanations.

What kills me is that it's possible to be scientifically rigorous AND religious. The more sensible religious scientists simply accept that maybe a "day" to their God isn't the same thing as the 24-hour revolution of the Earth that we call a "day" - so the earth may have been created in 7 days, but we're talking God-time, not Earth-time.

Even some of the most fundamentalist Bible-interpreters, if they're not completely closed-minded and ignorant of physics, will agree that Biblical time in Genesis may have little or no relation to the way we perceive time.

[IHeart1993]

34. I always thought dinosaurs were critical in....

...showing evolution exists.
The Dinosaur/ Bird theory
How would he explain Archaeopterx?

[Liberal Veteran]

35. Ever notice how most creationists only seem to buy into the Judeo-Xstian..

...version of creation?

Just once for novelty I'd like to see a creationist put forth the Hindu creation story as the true one.

[havocmom]

36. Guy named Baugh in Texas has a 'museum' to show dinosaurs & man

walked together. He used to have a website inviting others to come to his workshops showing how to make their own museums too. Can't find that one anymore, but he seems to have had an impact on many people.

Wonder what kinda $$ you can make giving seminars to those who already believe in literal interpretation of the bible. Seems to be easy way to make money to people who believe... Too bad my moral compass precludes my taking advantage of people. Robertson, Falwell and their ilk have no such moral restrictions.

[IHeart1993]

40. I'd like to see Robert Bakker's reaction

He wrote "The Dinosaur Heresies"

[kodi]

42. Noah's ark: where the tyrannosaurus & brontosaurus laid together in peace

i believe, if god wanted it to happen god would have had Noah build a bigger boat.

[On the Road]

43. Getting All Those Animals into the Ark was Hard Enough

It was a limited size -- the dimensions are given in Genesis. But maybe they could fit all the species in.

Now this guy is saying dinosaurs, and presumably other extinct species, were on the ark too. Since 99% of the world's species are extinct (including hundreds of humongous dinosaur species), they need an ark 100 times as big.

The inability to draw the simplest implications from your ideas seems to be a requirement for creationists.

[pinniped]

44. How did Noah keep the T-rex from eating the other pairs of animals????

?

[Zynx]

50. More importantly, where is MY damn T-Rex?

I want one of these as a pet to keep assorted scum off my yard. Difference between crocs and meat-eating dinos is minimal, therefore they should still be around.

I want my bloody Rex!

[mojavekid]

57. Ha! ha! That's right Pinniped!

great pic BTW, it looks like Bodie, though could be any number of places...

[pinniped]

65. Thanks, Rochester in NV.

I'm definitely going to see Bodie next year.

My next stop will be the Belmont Mill right in the middle of NV.

I'm also going to check out Berlin-Ichthyosaur State Park to see if they have any 6000-10000 year old T-rex fossils.:silly:

[mojavekid]

80. Thank you for the welcome Pinniped!

Bodie's setting is beautiful, and can get some weather which makes the experience even better. The parks service has put in place a policy of "arrested Decay" at Bodie so they are slowly and surreptitiously keeping it all together, while maintaining the natural appearance of a ghost town, I believe they are doing a good job. There are some Hot Springs near Bridgeport as well that are worth a visit, "Big Hot", "Travertine", "Buckeye" - near Buckeye campground, this one is nice and is somewhat popular, and "Fales"

We are off to Downieville, Auburn, North San Juan and others as we make our way North through the Gold Country this winter.

Mojavekid

[Zhade]

45. "Creation Truth" is an oxymoron.

"Creation Science" is a total joke.

As for "creationism" at large, I don't buy it, BUT if there WERE some force behind creation, I'd find it more likely to be a collective force than a single creator.

[snippy]

58. True, but the creation scientists themselves might be evidence of

the absence of evolution. They seem to have been "left behind."

I always tell these people that God has no problem with evolution. After all, She created it.

[Deja Q]

52. That's one big ark & a lot of smart animals that kept dino there starving!

:eyes:

[daleo]

53. This is the third creation museum in the last week or so, I have heard of

I suppose it will be survival of the the fittest, as to how many of these can co-exist.

[democracy eh]

54. I wonder what it feels like to

turn your brain off
wow

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

55. I AM SO FUCKIN' SICK OF DUMBASS XTIAN FUNDY BULLSHIT

Yes, let's move things back to the Dark Ages because gOD says so...

I will NOT coddle DUMBASSES just because I'm supposed to be sensitive to the beliefs of others. FUCK THAT SHIT. It's time to take a stand against FUNDY XTIANS. This COMPLETE IDIOCY has gone on too long.

JB

[mojavekid]

59. We stopped at Claude Bell's Concrete Dinos in Cabazon, Ca. this weekend

with my son, and I was suprised to see a large sign next to the entrance to the Apatosaurus, implying that the fossil record proves Creationism, and inside (where the gift shop/museum is) the walls are still adorned with the origional busts of Cro-Magnon, Neanderthal Man, etc. however, what's new is, next to each one was a little description card basically refuting evolution. The proprietor was reading a book called "Fossils of Contention" I was so depressed as I had alway enjoyed the place myself, without the fundie crap...The appropriation of such sites, that were so obviously not created to spread creation myths, is just plain obnoxious.

[GOPBasher]

61. This is complete and utter nonsense.

Does he still think the earth is the center of the universe? I wonder. Watch, here in the United States, in the coming theocracy, we'll be teaching this shit in schools.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

64. I think I'll write a biblical history of Rock 'n Roll...

I don't know jack shit about Rock, but I'll just pray and God will give me some good whoppers to feed the public.

[neverforget]

66. I WAS BORN IN GLENDIVE!!! I never thought I would see a headline

with Glendive, Mt on DU. It's a small town that is slowly dying. My family moved to Billings when I was 10.

As to the subject matter at hand......:eyes: What a nut.

[NinetySix]

67. "The Bible says it, I believe it, and that's all there is to it."

'Evolutionism,' is it, Mr. Otis?

First, there's no such thing as 'Evolutionism.' Am I an 'Electromagnetist' because I am convinced by Lavoisier's account and his model which describe certain natural phenomena? If I were not persuaded by the science, but 'believed' that these phenomena were actually mystical and mysterious Divine Forces whose mirculous nature could not be understood by the human intellect, what would I be then? Not an electrician, I suppose.

A person who accepts the account of evolutionary science does not take that account on faith, but understands evolutionary theory as a model that adequately accounts for most (but not all) of the observed phenomena, e.g., the observed mutability of species, the constant gradual change in the environment, and the fossil record which evinces the previous existence of numerous extinct species.

Second, the truth of the matter is that 'Creationism' is a dogma, and thus is not scientific. A scientist does not begin by accepting what is to be proven, proceeding then to search for supporting evidence, then finally concluding that the proposition that was to be proven was correct all along. That's not science, it's question-begging. Further, the reliance of 'Creation Science' on Biblical text is nothing more than an appeal to authority, another informal fallacy.

But the best description of 'Creation Science,' as exhibited in the popular Fundamentalist phrase, "The Bible says it, I believe it, and that's all there is to it," is good old subjectivism, plain and simple. Now there's an -ism you can really sink your teeth into, Mr. Otis! To say, "I wish it to be true, therefore I assume it to be true" is not only not science, it is delusional.

[welshTerrier2]

68. on the sixth day God created dinosaurs ???

yeah, that's the way it happened ...

i wonder how these jokers explain the extinction of dinosaurs ... could the big guy have made a mistake ???

[essarhaddon]

70. Shuddup you Godless heretics!

And be prepared to the Creation Planetarium, where it will be proven that light doesn't come from the stars. Because the Lord createth light before the stars (yeah that's it, read the Genesis you impious). And also the waters above the firmament (Genesis 1,7) will be displayed in glorious and mighty holograms. So stop mocking the Lord's truth, or risk being smitten by the Holy Book. In the head. Hard.

:crazy: :D :crazy: :D :crazy: :D :crazy: :D :crazy: :D :crazy: :D

[w4rma]

71. These folks REALLY want to believe the world is only 6K years old.

How do you reach folks like this?

On the other hand is it possible the founder is a con-artist out to make a WHOLE lot of money off of a WHOLE lot of marks?

[Disturbed]

72. Duckbilled Platypus

Were there a pair roaming around the ME at that time? Oh, yeah how about the Kangaroo and all those other creatures that are only found in Australia?

[Ediacara]

77. I doubt it's the money

Glendive is a small town in far eastern Montana. Unless you're specifically going to look for dinosaurs at Makoshika State Park, looking for paddlefish caviar, or driving from Seattle to Minneapolis, you don't have any reason to think about going NEAR Glendive.

[VegasWolf]

73. With all these dinosaurs and whatnot, Noah's ark is not buried

on Mt. Arafat, it is Mt. Arafat. There are secret tunnels
to the middle earth there.

[Endangered Specie]

74. "second-largest dinosaur and fossil museum in Montana"

just how many CAN there be in Montana?

[Ediacara]

78. The Museum of the Rockies

is in Bozeman and is actually pretty big and swanky for a town of 35,000. There are little "museums" in almost every town with dinosaur fossils in Montana though. In fact, this would be the second dinosaur "museum" in Glendive!

[LibertyorDeath]

75. ROFLMAO!!!

Just when you think you've heard the most retarded thing possible

the Cretinists out do themselves with

"dinosaurs were among the animals that trooped, two by two, onto Noah's ark"

Thanks for the Laugh. :)

[goodboy]

76. When scientists dig us up 10,000 years from now will they be able

to tell dumbasses like this guy apart from the rest of us?

[Endangered Specie]

85. Lets hope they don't find them period.

[goodboy]

90. "by their brain pan, we can tell these were what the enlightened

people of the time called, "morans"

[daleo]

79. What about the trilobites?

Will nobody speak up for the trilobites?! (looking imploringly at the sky, as the camera pulls back).

[Ripley]

89. lol!

This jerk off evidently never took an astronomy class. He thinks the Universe is only 6000 years old too.

[2cents]

81. more power to him...

...I don't know if he really believes this or not... but if he can make a few bucks on this latest "trend" - go for it.

P.T. Barnum would be proud.

[VegasWolf]

82. Yeah, but who's going to run the place after the Rupture? n/t

[genieroze]

84. BANG!!!!!!

I can't take this anymore. These people are retarded.

[Johnny Noshoes]

86. Is it just me

Did ALL of us reasonable rational people fall asleep several years ago and wake up in bizarro world!? Maybe we're trapped in some nasty holodeck program and one of us just has to say "computer end program" and it'll all be okay. Nope sorry this is it folks - I just hope we all can make it through until this insanity passes :crazy:

"You don't go to war with the president you want.
You go to war with the president you have."
-- Randi Rhodes

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely,the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
-- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956)