U.S. soldiers take complaints to new level

[Sleepless In NY]

U.S. soldiers take complaints to new level
Critics of Iraq war see breakdown of troop morale The Associated Press
Updated: 4:54 p.m. ET Dec. 10, 2004

WASHINGTON - Soldiers always gripe. But confronting the defense secretary, filing a lawsuit over extended tours and refusing to go on a mission because it’s too dangerous elevate complaining to a new level.

It also could mean a deeper problem for the Pentagon: a lessening of faith in the Iraq mission and in a volunteer army that soldiers can’t leave.
The hubbub over an exchange between Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and soldiers in Kuwait has given fresh ammunition to critics of the Bush administration’s Iraq policy.

It also highlighted growing morale and motivation problems in the 21-month-old war that even some administration supporters say must be addressed to get off a slippery slope that could eventually lead to breakdowns reminiscent of the Vietnam War.

Tip of the iceberg? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6694376/

[aquart]

1. The Titanic is going down.

Unfortunately, we're all on it.

[0007]

11. That reminds me of what Jeffrey Skilling said about comparing

California to the Titanic. "..at least the Titanic went down with it's lights on"....and now we're going down shouting, USA USA USA praise junior USA USA USA praise junior in the highest.

So long America it has been one hell of ride for 71 years, it was nice knowing ya!

[BamaBecky]

58. Thanks for the chuckle you gave me this A.M. n/t

[lolly]

2. OK, I'm asking for flames, but

Why did these guys vote overwhelmingly for the bozo who sent them there on an ill-defined mission without proper equipment, and who clearly doesn't give a crap about them? Didn't the military vote 75% for AWOL (feel free to correct me if I got that wrong, but that's what I've read).

Even the guy who made headlines for questioning Rumsfeld was a Bush supporter, and his ex-wife has said she was 100% behind "our president."

What kind of extreme cognitive dissonance do these guys suffer from?

[tridim]

3. We've all been looking for that info

So far, no official military vote results have been reported. The silence tells me that they voted for Kerry.

[lonestarnot]

10. I saw report somewhere military vote went to Kerry, but it is very far

back in my mind and I can't pull out where I saw it....

[bunny planet]

44. They definitely voted for Kerry. I've seen posts on DU from soldiers who

couldn't find a single man or woman in their platoon voting for *. Some expressed shock when they were told that * Bush won 60-40 over Kerry, they just didn't believe it. But those numbers, or even the percentages are being held very close to the vest if they went for *. They are either cooking them right now to make them be for * or hiding them from any scrutiny because they did indeed go for Kerry. There has to be someway to find out. What a message to give the numnuts who voted for him. The soldiers don't even believe in him and they are over there fighting and dying for his lie of a war. WAKE UP dittoheads, and freepaholics, I'd like to hear them try and spin that.

The only soldier I've talked to who went for * is an ex-Marine on my block. He plastered B/C stickers all over his car and windows of his house. But catch this, he's independently wealthy, flies his semper fi flag and American flag in front of the house 24/7 but hey, no call up to Iraq for him. He is a very healthy 32 year old speciman, no discernible reason he hasn't volunteered or been called up. He's gung ho about * but only because he hasn't seen action over there.

I can't even be civil to him at this point. Saw him in line at the grocery store with his two year old and couldn't even bring myself to say hello, just ignored him. I feel like his 'love it or leave it' vote put my family's future in limbo. F**K him. Maybe the back door draft doesn't apply to rich servicemen. He has no worries about going so he can just blindly support * destroying the minds and bodies of his fellow servicemen. What a hypocrite. I don't want anyone to have to go over there but if you say you believe in it so much and instead of going just sit home on your pile of money, criticize anyone against the war, and willfully ignore all the evil your guy has done in your name, I'm sorry, you suck.

Sorry, 1st and only (long) rant of the day.;-) I feel better now.

[tsuki]

4. I understand that most counties did not allow the military vote in

Florida. Came in too late. So who knows how they voted.

[Disturbed]

7. Brainwashing.

The Military have this down to a fine artform.

Logic is wiped clean.

[grasswire]

5. they may not really have voted for Bush...

...the man and his former wife, I mean. But if it was me in the potential crosshairs of Karl Rove, that's what I might say. And if there's a chance I'm going out on patrol with Bush supporters carrying arms, that's would I might say. "I voted for Bush and I support him 100 percent."

Wouldn't you?

[lonestarnot]

9. Not what their ballots said.

[Bouncy Ball]

12. You saw their ballots????

[Ms_Mary]

8. How much access to info do they get?

[haele]

17. They don't need to get much access...

They are there. They know the difference between what they are told, what Faux and CNN are showing them and what the reality of where they are is. They know they are getting lied to, and those who have half a brain and are not hysterical in denial know something is seriously wrong.
If even a few of them have access to the internet or international sources, word of mouth will pass that information on very rapidly.
Also - Stars and Stripes (a military paper that gets out to all deployed and OCONUS units) has shown a lot of criticism of the Shrub and his administration, and actually had some pre-election equal time information on Kerry (as well as info on the other candidates during the primary)

Personally I think the deployed and active military vote went closer to 60/40 Kerry than 70/30 Bush as was "reported" prior to November 2nd.

Haele

[Ms_Mary]

30. Sorry. I was vague. I don't mean about what is happeng there, but

rather what is happening here. Do they know what the government is doing or saying? I'm thinking it must be pretty limited.

A close friend's son is stationed in Tikrit and in the sporadic emails he sends her, he says morale is very low and that many of the soliders feel that the war has ruined the image of America.

[Just Me]

13. Their votes would NEVER be revealed by this regime.

Are you kidding?

[huellewig]

20. I would think a very small part of the military walks with a gun.

Any numbers on this? I would imagine most sit a thousand miles away at a computer crunching numbers, looking at maps, and killing people with a missile from a boat.

I would imagine the military accountants love Bush, the folks without air-conditioning might think differently..

[JoFerret]

54. Good point

There is the military...and then there are those are in harm's way.

[flygal]

21. Most of my brother's guard unit voted against *

I still think they're overly repuggy b/c most of the military people seem to be religious.

[lonestarnot]

6. Support the Troops - Donate a leg... More amputees this war than

any other.

[Ian David]

14. So, if the military had a coup, who would be in charge?

I'm not saying it SHOULD happen, I'm just wondering IF it happened, who would end up in charge?

My money says Colon Powell would be sitting in The Whitehouse.

[haele]

18. Nope -

A Military "coup" in the US would be a matter of the troops picking up and going back to their home bases - and sitting there until the civilian leadership sees the light.
That's been threatened before when Congress or the Administration has taken the Military for granted - as late as the mid 1980's, that I know of.

Also - Colin Powell has shown himself to be weak enough to be bossed around by this administration. At this point in time, they'd rather have Clarke or even Franks sitting in the big chair than Powell. Heck, they'd rather have Schwartzkoff.

Haele

[Stinky The Clown]

33. Did I miss something?

You wrote about a potential for a coup: "as late as the mid 1980's, that I know of." I must have been doing my Rip Van Winkle impression.:shrug:

Also, did you mean Richard Clarke, the guy who testified before the 9/11 commission and who sued to run a part of the National Security Advisors' office or did you mean presidential candidate Wesley Clark?

[haele]

53. Clark not Clarke, my bads...

And the "coup" in the mid-80's dealt not only with the usual, pay and benefits, but with privatization and base closures. Bases went "on strike" as it were, delayed deployments, slowed down work, officers in DC promoted the "military needs more, not less, for what you want them to do" memes that managed to delay or cancel many of the threatened cuts.
A military coup as traditionally practiced in the US is when a large number of Pentagon brass "forget" to implement a policy they don't like, or threaten to drag their feet until there can be a negotiated settlement.

The Pentagon brass, the Generals and Admirals, do not want to be in charge of anything but their own particular branches. There would be too much political backstabbing if they actually took charge - witness what has been going on under Rummy in the past few years. By the time they reach Command level, most officers realize that it's more effective to manipulate from below than be out in front taking the shots.

Haele

[Mist]

41. Powell has shown himself as a political opportunist

and a desk-bound bureaucrat. I think the troops can spot this.

[PapaJoe]

47. Haha, good one!

Do they have those magnet yellow ribbons that say that?

[nookiemonster]

15. So the downward spiral begins....

When you're gonna hit as low as we will be, the only way is up. Right?

This is going to be very interesting. I'm so glad that they're speaking out.

Our military is not the problem. :grouphug:

[LynnTheDem]

16. FINALLY!!!

GOOD for them!!!

[Voltaire99]

19. What's needed now: the new Ron Kovic.

Perhaps only when one of the amputee or paralyzed vets comes home to speak out against this war will middle America (including many numb moderate Democrats, unfortunately) start to get it.

This sucker's lost. It's a wash. It never should have been fought. And we need to end it sooner rather than later for the sake of the Iraqi people and of these troops.

Alas, Kerry's awful "reporting for duty" bullshit probably set back the antiwar movement by a good six to nine months. It's time to revive calls for peace and justice!

US out of Iraq!

[TyeDye75]

22. I have a problem with the use of the word complaining.

It sounds as though what theyre saying is unjustified.

[Stinky The Clown]

34. They're keeping the wounded on a tight rein, too

Just last week I called both Bethesda Navy Hospital and Walter Reed Army Hospital in DC. My intent was to have two wounded ambulatory soldiers to our house for Christmas. We've done this in the past with active duty people, but this year wanted to do it for the wounded specifically .... like maybe a guy in physical rehab or something.

Anyway, in both cases I was told they couldn't allow it. Some notion of security and liability. Okay. So I said I had done it with non-wounded in the past. In both cases (Bethesda and Walter Reed) I was told that active duty non-wounded can make up their own minds and use a pass to get out, but the guys in the hospital couldn't.

So lemme get this straight ..... if they're wounded they can't think?

[tngledwebb]

23. This Govt let this story come out for a reason,

and MSM complied. Not sure why, but if MSM/Govt can keep the wholesale civilian slaughter in Iraq off the air, plus Saving Private Ryan, not to mention all the other infinite evildoings of BushCo, when something this damning of our military and/or Rummy gets right out and makes the headlines, it smells to high heaven. I reckon it will lead to big increase in our military budget to justify big tax increase and deep social safety net, health/education and other spending cuts, plus re-design re-vamp of all our military, and a push for more EU or other troops, etc. Any other answers?

[EFerrari]

24. You're right. And yet, this report can have unintended consequences.

If that's right, Rummy is about to go. Defense spending will go up. And somehow this will be used to justify a draft. Another Orwellian twist: "We don't have enough armor, the answer is more meat."

[tngledwebb]

27. The draft is likely and imperative- we are running out of cannon fodder.

Rummy may 'go', but only for show. He'll still be pulling most of the strings.
Then again, this kind of story tells the sheeple other important and necessary lies, such as: 'that Rummy really can take it, he's honest and tough.'

And also: 'See, our (liberal) media DOESN'T hide the negative news.'

Yep, that's the US MSM M.O. from way way back. That's how they fooled me and a few million other Americans for a good chunk of our lives. But no longer..

[hollowdweller]

31. When they have used "the troops" as a way to deflect criticisim and damage

opponents how do they manage to damage their credibility and demonize them they way they usually do to blunt criticism?

[tngledwebb]

35. Sorry, come again on that?

Doesn't parse...

[dkofos]

45. Maybe this has something to do with it

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=574&u=/nm/20041210/wl_nm/iraq_funding_dc&printer=1

[Vidar]

25. My personal fantasy is the marines headed to 1600 Pennsylvania

Avenue, with bayonets fixed & safeties off.

[moondust]

26. I've pictured

tanks on the White House lawn.

[reprobate]

42. Yeah. And the big guns are pointing in, not out.

Hey junior. Come out, come out, wherever you are! Marines wish a word.

[PapaJoe]

46. A coup?

Look up a very little noted fragment of History, How General Smedley Butler foiled a plot to overthrow a President. US Marine, Patriot

[Vidar]

51. Knew about Butler. Thanks. Just a fantasy.

[Sugarbleus]

52. Omg, that's my fantasy too...lol

Somewhere, hidden just under the skin, I have this feeling/dream: Wouldn't it be interesting if the troops turned on the prez/government??

A few months ago,we in DU talked about marching in the streets; storming the white house if this pimp * got re instated to prez...we worried that the military would stop us from making that march...Now, I'm feeling hopeful. Maybe many of the military would be on our side.. Just a thought :evilgrin:

[radfringe]

28. not sure about tide turning thing

we've seen this sort of 'outrage' before only to have it spun and discredited as the rantings of the 'disgruntled'

heard on the radio that a recent poll regarding Iraq shows a significant drop in confidence about Iraq/middle-east becoming a stable democracy --- HOWEVER, in the same poll --- bush*'s approval numbers went up

go figure

[Massachusetts]

29. #1 Figures don't lie, liars figure. So much for polls

#2 There will never be tanks on the white house lawn unless we are attacked.

#3 Once there is a draft (and there will be one), then all bets are off. It will be a complete Revelation for the complacent ones.

Stay informed and educate those who don't know. We will get OUR government back sooner than later.:hi:

[sherilocks]

39. If there is a draft, the tanks will be on the White House lawn

but pointed at us, the protesting citizens, civilian and military, manned by troops loyal to the commander in thief.

[Stinky The Clown]

36. I heard that too ...... WTF?

That's just not possible in any sanity-based reality I ever saw.

[hollowdweller]

32. The Dems need to move and take $ from Star Wars or Contractors and move

it to armor. That would be a great PR move on their part.

[Stinky The Clown]

37. Yeah .... like the Dems have any power to do anything except

carry water for Tom DeLay and Bill Frist.

[spanone]

38. Soldiers realize they are dying for Bushco oil.

[IndianaGreen]

40. It was a mutiny in 1917 that led to the overthrow of the Russian Tsar

The Iraq war is bankrupting our country just as WWI did to Russia. The discontent of US troops could explode into a mutiny, as the Russian army did at Petrograd in February 1917.

One can only hope for the day the American people storm the White House as the Russians did the Winter Palace.

[reprobate]

43. Ah, you see truth, grasshopper. And remember the Bastille.

It happened in france in 1789.

It happened in russia in 1917.

It happened in the US in 2005. Oops, wishfull thinking.

The fact is that revolution historically occurs whenever too much wealth in a society is concentrated in too few hands. It's one of natures checks and balances.

[MsMagnificent]

56. Was JUST saying that Rumsfeld's statement

was akin to "Let them eat cake"
:D


But you know, we've had almost a scandal a day here... and the media STILL hasn't picked all this up. And the only way people will get outraged enough to REALLY do anything about it depends positively on their knowledge of what is truly going on -- ie the Truth.

But the media, she's not covering ANYTHING in depth; and most not at all

[ribrepin]

49. This has always reminded me of the Russian Revolution

More than Vietnam. Think about the events that lead up to 1917. All powerful Zsar, people very poor with no social programs and an expensive war that the poor people saw no need for.

Someone on this board the other day said that Franklyn Roosevelt saved the U. S. from Communism by putting in the new deal. I think that person is right. These assholes are doing everything they can to get rid of the new deal.

I watched Doctor Zhivago a couple of years ago and felt recognition even though the events are almost 100 years apart.

[MsMagnificent]

55. The Russian soldiers were also ill or non-equipped

They had them rushing the Germans with NO WEAPON WHATSOEVER

Needless to say, if a soldier had a rifle and was shot (not e ven killed but just incapacitated for a bit) there was a huge rush and fight for his weapon.

They didn't have much ammo either -- but since you needed a GUN to use said ammo... well point was moot :D

At least ONE MILLION were sent in as cannon fodder without even warm winter clothes, but it was the lack of firearms that was the proverbial straw.

The Germans say they actually had to go out and move the high mounds of bodies so they could continue getting a bead on the soldiers Russe.

Maybe the Tsarina/Rasputin (who were the one's that called the shots in 1917) was hoping that, after shooting a million or two russians, that THE GERMANS would be the one's to run out of ammo! LOL

[nookiemonster]

48. Winds of change are blowin'.....

and they're hurricane strength.

The military will start the inevitable chain reaction. I really believe this could be the catalyst we've needed all along to get these cretins out of OUR white house.

[el_duderino]

50. The daft will draft

and then all hell will break loose. The public will not sit blankly staring at the Fox Snooze any longer,at least the sheeple that have a brain hidden somewhere won't.

[NicRic]

57. Whenever you doing something thats wrong ....

from the get go ,its not likley to ever have a good outcome ! This war was and is a waste of human lives and resources . The most unbelieveable thing in this whole war fiasco ,is this idiot that took us into this war now has four more years to continue making things worst. I can look in the eyes of our fighting Men and Women and say I would never send you off to die with so little respect for their lives and the lives of the inocent people of Iraq ! To add inslut to injury ,to so badly plan on how this war should play out, while the whole time insisting you have done the right thing ,sadly enough American voters ,bought into this whole thing ! I dont blame any inlisted person who wants out after serving the time they signed up for. At a very young age they are finding out ,even when it comes to serving your country ,read the fine print B/4 you sign ! You may actually be signing your life away !