Texas Moms Who Killed Children Cite Religion

[Judi Lynn]

Texas Moms Who Killed Children Cite Religion

POSTED: 12:29 pm EST December 14, 2004

DALLAS -- Religion has been a common thread in Texas cases involving mothers who killed their children: Andrea Yates said Satan told her to drown her five children and Deanna Laney said the Lord sent her signs to beat her three sons to death with stones.



AP Image
Dena Schlosser

Now The Associated Press reported that Dena Schlosser -- the day before her baby's arms were severed -- told her husband she wanted to give her children to God.

The suburban Dallas mother is charged with murdering her 10-month-old daughter. Attorneys are expected to discuss Schlosser's competency at a court hearing Tuesday.
(snip/...)

http://www.news4jax.com/news/3996135/detail.html

[Not_Giving_Up]

1. I remember in the early 80s there was a woman in the neighborhood

next to mine who killed her infant son with a butcher knife on top of the big family bible because god told her that her son was the antichrist. She then called the elementary school (where her daughter was), and told them not to send her daughter home because she had just killed her son. I was still pretty little, don't know what happened to her. I know she said that she saw red flashing lights, which they later determined were the flashers on a postal vehicle parked in the street while the postal worker delivered a package.

[Not_Giving_Up]

4. I suppose I'm trying to say that this is nothing knew

I think that a lot of these people think that god is talking to them whenever they hear from any voice inside their head. Plus, if they are wacko fundies, hell, the crazy voices in their heads will gladly tell them it's for god!

Andrea Yates suffered severe post partum depression, but continued to have child after child at her husband's requests. The kids that were school aged were homeschooled, so she had all of them all of the time. At least Rusty got to go to work! She had serious mental issues, and he just ignored them. A friend of mine lived near where Andrea was incarcerated, and said that Rusty would come to town with his girlfriend, drop her off at a diner, go visit his wife, then pick his girlfriend back up. This was right after the sentencing. Not long ago he filed divorce papers...she was served on the anniversary of her children's deaths. She had a breakdown and was sent to Galveston to the mental hospital for treatment.

[jayfish]

2. I Wonder What The Reaction...

would be, on the Right, if these "mothers" claimed that drugs or pornography made them commit those atrocities? Where is the push to criminalize religion?

Jay

[zbdent]

6. The "reaction" already has been made for the mother who severed

her child's limbs and let it bleed to death . . . one of the freepiacs said "Well, if she'd done it 12 months earlier, the ACLU would have defended her." (meaning that the child was 10 months old when murdered - it took me a second reading to realize that the posterior was talking about "late-term abortion").

[arcane1]

8. or rock music, atheism, etc etc etc

religion gets a free pass every time

[RPM]

32. yep...

it gets a free pass - but it shouldnt. Christ, more people have been killed in the name of God than have been killed by persons inspired by Ozzy....

:eyes: religion :eyes:

:eyes: Ozzy :eyes:

[genieroze]

46. Where is the push to criminalize religion?

Why is there a push to criminalize the mentally insane. I really think for a mother to do that to her kids in that sort of manner makes me think they are nuts. I'm not talking about a woman who does it for the insurance policy or other disgusting reasons. These people are not right, and some cult like religions takes advantage of the weak minded. Of course I don't think religion is a defense, that's stupid. If anyone tries to use religion as an excuse is a moron. I don't think these women are right in the head in the first place that's how religion was used to manipulate them into following these cults in the first place.

[DebinTx]

3. Religion is a BIG business in Texas

drive through any town and you'll see.

[Not_Giving_Up]

5. True, we have more churches than anything else...

and there's always a sign somewhere that reads "Future Home of" some church.

Hey Deb - What part are you in? Brazoria County here.

[zbdent]

7. Don't forget about the mother who was pulled over for speeding in Ohio

last year (or so).

Was breastfeeding her kid at 90 mph or so. Husband said that the courts had no say over her, that the Bible said that he had sole right to punish her.

[genieroze]

47. Good if she smashes into my car, can I knock him in the teeth? eom

[imenja]

9. the problem is paranoid schizophrenia, not religion / poor medical care

Religion is the form their psychosis takes. Some people who enter a psychotic break hear other sorts of voices--aliens, the CIA, communication from their microwaves, etc... Religion doesn't cause their illness, it's the particular expression it takes.
It seems to me the central issue is that our country and medical system does not offer appropriate treatment to those with mental illness. We need parity in medical coverage between mental illnesses and other forms of biological maladies. Obviously, we also need universal health care.

[Not_Giving_Up]

10. That's what I was saying about Andrea Yates

That case is local for me, so we got all of the down and dirty details...I don't have as much info on the others...I know Andrea's family did an interview on the local news that they tried to tell her husband that she needed help, but he wouldn't hear of it. She was being treated by a doc, just not effectively.

[imenja]

13. such a tragic case, points to problems in justice system

The woman was clearly ill, seriously so. My understanding is that she is still catatonic, years later. Is that correct?
Why can't we separate adjudication of mental illness from guilt: first declare if someone is guilty or innocent, then determine the appropriate treatment / punishment. Juries seem to have a great deal of trouble deciding someone is "not guilty" because they are seriously mentally ill. Yates' crime was clearly not one of cold intent, like Scott Peterson's. She should be treated appropriately.
I feel so badly for her. The hell she lives with is so much worse than anything the judicial system could impose.
I lived in Texas (Austin) for 10 years but still don't understand the level of vengeance that grips the judicial system in that state (everywhere in the country, but especially so in Texas). Can you explain it to me?
If you look at the Mark Hacking case in Salt Lake City, few there expect the prosecutors to seek the death penalty. There clearly is a strong cultural difference in different parts of the country when it comes to the appropriateness of state mandated death. I know Yates didn't receive the death penalty, but that the prosecutor even sought it was astounding.

[trogdor]

34. Are you kidding me?

If Andrea Yates were black and killed her children because she couldn't afford to feed them, she'd already be dead. "Jesus" gets you off in Texas, and these people know it.

[imenja]

36. off?

Life in prison for a catatonic woman? A little compassion seems in order here.
There is no doubt that the death penalty is racist in it's application. I don't understand your hostility toward Andrea Yates though. The problems in our justice system are extensive: racism is central, but the list doesn't stop there.

[trogdor]

38. Um, people have been executed in Texas for a LOT less.

Can you think of a more heinous crime than to round up your children and drown them one at a time in the bathtub? I'm not hostile toward Ms. Yates. I'm hostile toward the Texas criminal justice system where people who did lots less go to Death Row, while "born-agains" get the bleeding-heart treatment because the hypocrite pro-death penalty preachers can't see one of their own getting the same punishment the unsaved get. Equal treatment for all, I say.

[imenja]

41. I don't know if that is true or not

but my idea of justice doesn't include murder.

[chookie]

63. One notable exception:

Karla Faye Tucker.

Born again.

Giggled at by Bush after he let her be executed, even against objections by people like Pat Robertson.

[anitar1]

61. That's What i Was Saying About Andrea Yates

Her Doc was probably a Christian doctor.

[chookie]

64. I am not sure

I think he was probably your run-of-the-mill GP who hands out powerful antidepressants to people, whose effects he doesn't quite understand.

Mental health care in this country is atrocious. Most insurance plans will allow you to get a prescription, but drop counseling, or limit it to just a very few consultations.

He may not have realized she was as sick as she was, because he simply hadn't seen much of her, or was unqualified to evaluate her state of mind, or bought the line that those pills will take care of everything.

[elehhhhna]

12. Par. Schizo's voices are influenced by their culture:

I read this ages ago, not sure where, but the article claimed that in the US it's God talking, in China and other asian countries it's the "ancestors" and in the old USSR it was the Government. Whoever you most fear is who your brain homes in on...

[imenja]

16. makes sense

That makes sense, though religion has also served as a source of ideological empowerment for people--The black church in Civil Rights movement, for example. There are countless examples throughout history: the Nat Turner slave revolt, the Muslim revolt of Bahia, Brazil (1835), the Hidalgo revolt in Mexcio (1810), liberation theology throughout Latin America, and many other examples.
The guilt trips conservative churches impose on women don't help, I'm sure, but religion itself isn't the problem. Faith can have a liberating influence.

[histohoney]

17. Thank you

I could not come up with what to say and you said it for me. Thanks.

I started working in hospitals at 16 yrs. Back in the 70's in a Texas town I remember one of the ER doc trying to find something physical wrong with a young women so she could be held for just a little while so he could maybe get some mental health help for her, (Her insurance company did not cover mental health).

I have seen LOTS of volunteers from various religious groups working with the physically and mentally ill, doing great and needed out reach to all sorts of people. Please do not lump the few with the many when it comes to religious folks, their are a great more good people than bad that are religious.

[imenja]

20. yes, I agree there is far too much prejudice toward religion on the left

We see Gerry Falwell on television, hear the boisterous and often offensive conservative fundamentalists, and many conclude there is something wrong with religion and Christians overall. Many people of faith do a great deal of good in this world: Jimmy Carter, Margaret Hassam, Mother Teresa, and thousands of volunteers whose names we don't know. We need to recognize that there are religious people on the left whose faith empower them to do good works, as Christ instructed.
I also believe that we on the left also need to develop better tolerance and understanding of people who see the world differently from ourselves, including conservative Christians. I'd like to make a plea for people to stop using terms like "fundies" and "repugs." I truly believe that to fill one's heart with intolerance and hatred is poisonous; it darkens the soul. It doesn't contribute toward making
the world a better place. Our goal should be to better society and civic life, not to join the chorus of hatred that leads to it's degradation.

[histohoney]

22. Thanks

to you too. Very well put.

[elehhhhna]

24. Can I still call them "Fuddies" & "Mepublicans" ? PLEEEEEEASE?

[calimary]

50. Are you the one who thought up "Mepublicans?"

If so, MANY kudos!!!

If not, it's still well worth repeating.

[elehhhhna]

52. should have. but no. copped it from a DU'er.

[RedEarth]

42. Wonderful post....I couldn't agree more.......nt

[depakid]

18. Bingo

excess religiousity is a common symptom of many mental illnesses. Treat the underlying illnesses and you may be able to lessen some of the harms associated with them.

[jobycom]

23. Yes, exactly, religion is just the excuse, not the cause

People blame religion for all things good and bad, but religion is just the excuse. People who suddenly turn their lives around claim God saved them. People who hate claim God commanded it. God is the ultimate trump card-- you pull him out when you want to do something really bad but don't have any good explanation for what you are doing. For the mentally ill, God is the manifestation of the delusions they suffer, because they can't figure out where else the delusions come from.

Take away religion, and people will blame tv, drugs, Gumby, Clinton, whatever.

Andrea Yates' husband is the one I think should have gone to jail, for failure to monitor a dangerous situation he knew existed. I had not heard the part about his girlfriend-- it makes me wonder if he pushed her deliberately.

[Judi Lynn]

28. If she learned how alone she really was, being responsible for her kids'

education, as well as their general upbringing, their living conditions, their emotional well-being and facing life without her husband's presence and companionship it could have been far more than she could handle, like the sky falling on her.

Throughout this time, she was unfortunate enough to be influenced unduly by a true mental case, her desperately sick fundie preacher, as well detailed in previous articles. There's no doubt he was a deranged, intrusive personality in her life who told her how to think.

Left with a lunatic preacher hovering over her, and a voided marriage, she probably would collapse, considering the overload. I'll bet a lot of people would in her circumstances.

[Strawman]

30. Agree

I'm not religious, but religion doesn't make you sever your child's arms off. Neither does heavy metal music or the devil. It's mental illness. It really chafes me when people here react to stories like this as evidence of "Red State Values," almost seeming to take satisfaction in the fact that they have been proven right. That is utter horseshit. You know I may disagree with alot of things my Republican neighbors believe, but I certainly don't think they tacitly condone mothers killing their kids for Jesus.

I will say this. What is sad is that I think alot of the charismatic preacher types who run these fundie churches prey on the mentally ill and encourage their paranoid delusions as long as it affirms what they preach and the checks keep coming from them every Sunday. It didn't have to turn out this way for this woman and her kids, but for ignorance and the stigma surrounding mental illness. Adding extreme religion on top of this probably masked her illness as well, or if it didn't, perhaps the people in her church and her social circle believed that God could save her. That's not a sign of their warped values, it's a sign of ignorance, and it's just really sad.

[jwirr]

57. The danger of believing in the literal

sense that "God will save you" is that many people do not recognize the gifts of God when it is in front of their faces. In my own religion we believe God gives healing but His gifts always come through other people - love your neighbor as yourself - so they often fail to seek the kind of help that is readily available in their own area - doctors, welfare, educators, etc - as gifts from God. When it is looked at this way there is a thankfulness for every good thing in life. I love this Bible verse "I (God) did not give you comfort that you might be comforted but that you might comfort others."

[canetoad]

35. Who benefits?

I fully agree that mental illness can make some people do strange and terrible things, however there seems to be an ever increasing number of cases in the USA where the voice of god is being used as a defence.

This disturbs me for a couple of reasons; the main one being that this particular line of defence may not have come from the accused.

A quick confession followed by commital to a prison or mental institution does not lead to a high profile, plastered-all-over-the-media trial. Have a guess at which interests are best served by a long and sensational case. Look for the dollars!

No one can say for sure and I certainly am not privy to first discussions between a lawyer and their client, but to someone in a fragile mental state, I can imagine it would not take much subtle suggestion to have them say that god told them to do it.

The benefits in terms of exposure and ongoing fees to the lawyer are obvious, as are the chances of garnering sympathy from the public.

[imenja]

40. the fundamental problem

as I see it is that we have a justice system based on vengeance rather than rehabilitation. The public doesn't care about treating prisoners with mental illness, because they believe the intent of prison and the death penalty is to impose suffering. The notion of a penitentiary society has long since passed.
Prisons are big money, but I think most death penalty attorneys would forgo their fees for abolition. I would guess that Andrea Yates lawyer worked pro-bono. He's a prominent attorney and they aren't a wealthy family. Death penalty cases and convictions cost millions. They are not financially lucrative for the state or defense attorneys. Few such cases make it onto television. State sanctioned murder points to a level of institutionalized violence in our society with an influence that reaches beyond prisons. We are a tremendously violent society, and the death penalty both reflects and contributes to that violence.
I think your argument for the influence of money makes more sense for drug convictions and the proliferation of prisons in general.
Most of the US prison population--the largest in the world and growing--is comprised of those who violate drug laws. And more and more prisons are private. It's an ugly trend.
As for the line of defense: insanity cases almost never succeed. The rates of acquittal are the lowest of all defenses. In Andrea Yates' case, I believe the attorney told her story as he knew it. Some lawyers may fabricate religious defenses, but it doesn't seem to get them very far.
The fact so many cases of delusion in this country take a religious form may very well be a function of the growth of conservative fundamentalism. But as another poster noted their delusions might simply take another form otherwise, as in other parts of the world (the state in Russia, ancestors in China, etc..).
It would be interesting to know if there is actually an increase in cases of psychotic infanticide, or if it is simply a new found obsession of the media.

[zbdent]

55. Yeah, but have one "liberal" jaywalk and you have people wanting

mandatory prayer in schools.

For pete's sake, one idjit got in the local daily and both weeklies with the exact same letter blaming the death of over half of the Pilgrims on Socialism, not the fact that they disembarked from the Mayflower in the middle of November in the upper northeast part of the country right before winter and didn't have chainsaws and power tools to build the proper shelters and probably didn't bring much food with them to last past the voyage and the fact that medical care at the time was spotty at best and the fact that there were only six healthy people at one point to either tend to the sick or bury the dead.

[PassingFair]

60. "Religion doesn't cause their illness"

True. But religion backs up the voices in their head. The churchs tells them that angels and satan are real. Why should they question the voices. Everyone at church abets the psychosis.
If aliens had been telling her what to do, most folks would have readily called her crazy.

If I ever went to a shrink, it would have to be a secular one...

[superconnected]

11. Religion is just her vehicle

She's someone that is nuts, with or without religion. The voices aren't going to go away if she becomes an athiest.

I think someone that would be crazy enough to do this, would do it under any guise they could find.

[darkism]

14. Good old red state moral values

Gotta love em!

[bloom]

19. I'm glad nobody ever has mental problems in the blue states.

:eyes: :crazy:

[Dear Maggie]

15. They have to be mentally insane

No one in their right mind would do such a thing

[noonwitch]

21. Religious and sexual themes are common in schizophrenics

I guess society could influence this to some degree, but because both subjects are things that lots of people who aren't schizophrenic have problems with, then those who are mentally ill will have that much more trouble with them than everyone else.

Schizophrenics misinterpret reality. Some hallucinate, some are just very delusional. Some religions and weird sexual relationships can feed this in some very scary ways.

[jobycom]

25. It's obvious why religion is such a theme in schizophrenia

Schizophrenics sometimes hear voices that no one else hears, they see people who aren't really there, etc. More often, their brains just present thoughts and images to them that don't come from their senses. Where else would someone assume they came from?

Think of some of the classic cases in religious history: Abraham hears a voice to sacrifice his son. Muhammad hears a voice reciting a beautiful poem and tells him that the poem is God's message. Paul saw a light on the road to Damascus that he knew was God.

I'm not claiming any of them were victims of schizophrenia, but it's easy to see how a schizophrenic brought up in those religions would see parallels with what they were going through.

[imenja]

27. That in itself would be seen as mental illness today

Miracles of the past would be viewed as insanity today. Much of our world makes no room for the intangible, that which cannot be scientifically proved. That, I suppose, is part of what underlies the cultural battles that consume American politics today.
In Brazil, where I lived for a time, the spiritual, even supernatural, world is fully acknowledged and present in daily life.
It opens up a whole world of possibility. It's difficult to describe, but it's an entirely different quality of life. Most here would dismiss it as superstition, as I myself might have done before living there.

[jobycom]

29. I know what you mean

I've gotten in arguments here trying to explain similar issues.

There's a line in Foucault's Pendulum, where a woman from Brazil performs some religious ritual or other (I've forgotten what), and the protagonist picks on her for it, saying "You don't believe in that stuff." She says "I don't believe in it, but it's still true." I got that line, but I think a lot of people misunderstand it.

[imenja]

31. Candomble

Absolutely, that captures very well how Brazilians feel about the Afro-Brazilian religion. May will say they don't believe in Candomble, meaning they don't practice it, but they acknowledge it's presence and power in society. And they definitely don't want to cross it, because some--though certainly not most--practitioners use it at times for malevolent purposes.
I didn't realize Foucault had written about Brazil. Does he go into any detail on religion or slavery there?

[jobycom]

33. Not about Foucault

The book is "Foucault's Pendulum," by Umberto Eco. It takes place mostly in Mediterranean Europe, but the protagonist winds up with a girlfriend from Brazil for part of the book.

Eco wrote this after "The Name of the Rose," and anyone who has studied the Middle Ages in depth, as Eco did, realizes how spiritual the age was, and how quaint much of our scientific superiority is today. Science is wonderful as far as it goes, but there are areas it doesn't go.

[kitchen girl]

26. Post-partum depression...

also causes psychosis and, as many others have pointed out, religious delusions are very prominent in psychosis.

[Judi Lynn]

37. New developement in Andrea Yates's appeal.....

Texas court hears arguments in appeal by woman who drowned her children
Tuesday December 14, 2004
By PAM EASTON
Associated Press Writer
HOUSTON (AP) Andrea Yates' murder convictions for drowning her children should be overturned because the state's expert witness gave false testimony about working on an episode of ``Law and Order,'' her attorneys told a state appeals court Tuesday.
(snip)

Her attorneys told a three-judge panel of the state's First Court of Appeals that she deserves a new trial because of 19 errors that were committed in her 2002 trial.

They focused on the testimony of Park Dietz, a prosecution expert witness who said he was a consultant for an episode of ``Law and Order'' that he said dealt with a woman who was found innocent by reason of insanity in the drowning of her children. He testified the episode aired in the weeks leading up to the drownings, and trial testimony indicated Yates had watched the series.

However, after Yates' conviction it was revealed that there was no such episode.

``Without the testimony of Dr. Dietz, the state would not have been able to make their case,'' Yates' attorneys argued. ``This case boiled down to a battle of the experts and the powerful testimony of Dr. Dietz ultimately prevailed.''
(snip/...)

http://cbsnewyork.com/national/AndreaYatesAppeal-aa/resources_news_html

[TahitiNut]

39. It's the sickness of an authoritarian mindset.

First, let's be reminded that 'authoritarian' refers as much or more to those who succumb to 'authority,' as those who assume 'authority.'

Someone with authoritarian attitudes abdicates personal responsibility for their behavior and beliefs. Whether they subordinate themselves to the authority of a preacher, a boss, a politician, or a spouse, "the devil made me do it" is the perennial escape clause. Torture? The sergeant made me do it. Murder? Lt. Calley made me do it.

The flip-side is dogma. In slavishly complying with dogma, we abdicate any claim to virtue, effectively becoming virtue-less people.

It's amazing how hypocritical those who proclaim themselves to be in favor of "personal responsibility" can be. They would enact laws (dogma), and "blame Clinton" for every act of authoritarianism.

Challenge authority!

[Judi Lynn]

43. Perfect post. Perfect. I've seen it in my own lifetime.

Could NOT be more accurate. Damned shame, and it appears to last for a couple of generations or more before people can shake it off in so many cases.

[phasev]

44. butt sniffers

You have dogs sniffing each others butt as a way to show pack loyalty
You have humans......

[NNN0LHI]

48. Very good advice n/t

[PurityOfEssence]

45. Well, ya gotta love religion

Or else.

Deeply imbedded in the American mindset is the concept of getting rich quick; religion is just another expression of this: skipping all the icky thought stuff, and simply proclaiming a complete understanding of the universe.

Yet, religion is good. Regardless of the balance sheet or anything else, far too many believers will fight any dissent and claim the right to privileged status.

[samtob]

49. Or is this a good defense to use in TX?

Deanna Laney was found innocent by reason of insanity by claiming god told her to do it.

Clearly these women are ill, but how much of this "She said god told her to do it" is positioning by the defense attorneys?

It makes me sick to hear of these cases where mothers murder their children. Granted, they are not healthy and in need of some intense mental health therapy, but damn. I cannot fathom killing my kids.

I remember when Susan Smith confessed she killed her kids, I was in shock. My husband called it when they first reported it, I could not believe a woman would do that to her own kids. I still can't.

[snippy]

51. I now call this the Bush Defense.

It seems to annoy republicans.

[Judi Lynn]

53. It's the right thing to do.

[stanwyck]

54. post-partum is real

I know. I had it after my twins were born. Fortunately, I had a very good ob-gyn who got a psychiatrist in to visit me in the hospital. She was so reassuring and matter of fact about what I was experiencing. Mine didn't last long. But it was very scary. My friends were supportive. And, of course, my husband. I wonder about the husbands in these cases. Andrea Yates' husband left his children with a woman who had severe mental problems. She had been hospitalized numerous times and had been prescribed heavy psychotropic drugs. Yet he left his five young children with her to home-school. I don't think he was being a compassionate husband or father. He owed his children the care of a rational, responsible adult. To me, his actions were narcissistic and irreponsible. Too often, these deadly situations occur because of the adult chemistry between the mother and father.

[NNN0LHI]

56. "If thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee..."

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGB7H5UPQ2E.html

Attorney Says Bible Passage Guided Woman Who Severed Baby's Arms

McKINNEY, Texas (AP) - A mother who admitted killing her baby daughter by severing the girl's arms was guided by a Bible passage in which Jesus refers to cutting off body parts to cast away sin, the woman's attorney said Tuesday.

Dena Schlosser, a 35-year-old housewife with a history of mental illness, has referred to the New Testament passage since the killing of 10-month-old Margaret, attorney David Haynes told The Associated Press.

In the Book of Matthew, Jesus says: "If thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."

Schlosser was charged with capital murder Nov. 22, after she told a 911 operator she had cut off her baby's arms. Police found her in the living room, covered in blood, still holding a knife and listening to a hymn.

more

[VegasWolf]

59. So jesus is proposing self-mutilation if you can't control yourself? n/t

[VegasWolf]

58. When you believe in invisible men in the sky you are on the slippery slope

[mitchum]

62. Boy, God certainly tells people to do some fucked up shit