Finding Homosexual Threads in Lincoln's Legend

[mimitabby]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/16/books/16linc.html


Finding Homosexual Threads in Lincoln's Legend
By DINITIA SMITH

Published: December 16, 2004


as Abraham Lincoln a gay American?

The subject of the 16th president's sexuality has been debated among scholars for years. They cite his troubled marriage to Mary Todd and his youthful friendship with Joshua Speed, who shared his bed for four years. Now, in a new book, C. A. Tripp also asserts that Lincoln had a homosexual relationship with the captain of his bodyguards, David V. Derickson, who shared his bed whenever Mary Todd was away.

[Ediacara]

1. Wow two gay presidents in a row!?

Although I don't think Lincoln was actually the founder of the Republican Party, was he?

[mimitabby]

2. who is the other gay president? n/t

[Ediacara]

11. Buchanan

Often refered to as the "bachelor president." Bachelor, aparently being an A&E synonym for gay.

[sandnsea]

6. Yes he was

A hodgepodge group that resembles the Democratic Party today. After the Civil War, that's why we had Republican Presidents except for Cleveland and Wilson. The south refused to vote Republican and the rest of the country refused to vote for anybody associated with those traitorous rebels, Democrats. It switched with FDR, then switched back with Reagan. Democrats have had problems winning the Presidency for a very, very long time.

[lancdem]

8. Actually, I think the switch back happened with Nixon

[sandnsea]

15. It started then

But I'd say backlash against Democrats was more a cause in 72. Backlash against anti-war and civil rights people. With Reagan, the south was voting FOR Republicans and it's still the solid south, just like it was in the 1800's.

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

70. Lincoln did not "found" the Republican Party

Lincoln was a Whig, and remained so until the the party essentially dissolved in the mid-1850's, and then he joined the Republican Party.

[imenja]

81. How do you define found?

The Republican party formed in 1854. Lincoln was an early member and the party's first president. Are you limiting founder to those who were present at it's first organizing convention in Wisconsin in 1854? Do you know for a fact Lincoln wasn't there? Regardless, I think it's mincing words to claim he wasn't a founder. As it's first president he clearly played a central role in the formation of the party. If the Republicans want to claim him, why not? Perhaps an appropriate response might be to hold them to some of the ideals Lincoln espoused?
I say the Democrats should do more to reclaim our own historical roots--FDR--than to deny the Republicans theirs.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

63. Not at all

Claiming he's gay is like claiming JFK was gay. It's all a lot of promotion, nothing more.

[Bleacher Creature]

3. This isn't on point, but I hate it when they do that.

That is, refer to Lincoln as a Republican and the founder of the party. While it is technically true, there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that he would be a Republican today -- nor would Teddy Roosevelt for that matter.

[tx_dem41]

5. Actually, its not technically true.

The Republican party was formed in 1854 at a convention in Jackson, Michigan. Lincoln wasn't there, as far as I know. Now, if you mean he was the first Republican president, that he was.

[sandnsea]

12. What about the Whigs?

Didn't the Republican Party gain it's real power when many Whigs joined, and wasn't that when Lincoln ran?

[tx_dem41]

14. You are correct, and I am most likely being "overly semantical".

I am just quibbling about the term "founder" I guess. Sorry, I didn't mean to distract from the thread.

[sandnsea]

16. I think it's important

The Whigs are the ones that hijacked the party, we're still fighting some of the same old battles we've been fighting since the 1700's. Seems to me.

[AP]

46. Teddy was a modern Republican on the race and imperialism/FP front.

However, being anti-monopoloy and pro-income tax made him relatively democratic. Another way to think of it was that he was anti-corporate royalist.

[Cooley Hurd]

62. Don't forget conservation... he was way ahead of the curve on that...

Theodore Roosevelt IV carries on in that tradition (although another TR great-grandson, Tweed, is a neocon nitwit).

[davidinalameda]

4. those rumors have been around for a long time

it would be nice if it was true but it doesn't really matter

[Mokito]

43. To you it probably wouldn't matter,

but can you imagine the exploding heads of todays extreme rightwing fundamentalist republicans if this was proven beyond doubt?

[NashVegas]

7. mimitabby, Please Fix Your Headline

to the correct story title as published. Thanks

[mimitabby]

9. i tried and it won't let me!

[mimitabby]

10. it worked the second time

[NashVegas]

13. thanks

should be an interesting book :)

[elehhhhna]

17. no wonder poor Mary Todd got wiggy.

[leftofcool]

21. But she was pretty wiggy from the get go

From all accounts I have read of her, she spent a great deal of her time with her medium/spiritualist, which is not a bad thing but she came to rely on that part of her life so much that it made her pretty bonkers even while Abe was in the WH. There is also some indication that she may have been manic depressive which of course they didn't know how to diagnose back then.

Left of Cool

[elehhhhna]

40. I know. Her son was very cruel in her later years though, imho

[Mike Niendorff]

18. And in other news today ...

... the New Deal is about to go up in flames. But at least we've got our priorities straight here in America, and we're debating the critical issues that will set the path toward the next horizon:

"was Lincoln gay?"
"is it 'Merry Christmas', or 'Merry X-mas'?"
"and what's Michael Jackson been up to?"
"did you hear about the Scott Peterson verdict?"

Oh, and in other news, a small town judge has embroidered the Ten Commandments on his robe. Film at eleven.

Welcome to America, my friends. Grab a handful of Prozac, a daily paper and click on a cable news channel, and come get comfortably numb with the rest of us.


MDN

[artboy]

19. well

that explains Lincoln Logs.....

[leftofcool]

22. Good Post

Kind of sad ain't it?

Left of Cool

[Old Mouse]

23. What could you possibly mean?

The impossible to confirm speculation on the sexual preference of a man one hundred years dead is of the most immediate and crucial issues we face today.

I DEMAND discussion of all other news be suspended so that more time and bandwidth can be spend discussing endless unanswerable questions this monumental discovery made years ago puts forth... for example:

It is a well documented fact Abraham Lincoln had big hands and big feet. DO YOU REALIZE WHAT THAT MEANS??? Big shoes and big gloves.

[rhyfeddu]

27. Don't be silly.

Who is suggesting this is a (hunka hunka) BURNING issue, that should supercede all others? That doesn't mean it should be ignored in some kind of 'All or Nothing' system of importance...

Gays and Lesbians have been erased from history pretty darn successfully...thats comforting to RWingers/Fascist theocrats and just plain uninformed types, who like to think we're some sort of new strain of deviance that has developed with the fall of conservative, old-fashioned, God-fearing America (as they see it).

Reclaiming our heritage is a worthy endeavor. Is this a done deal, as far as Lincoln is concerned? Nope. But the discussion is fine by me.

And won't prevent you from fighting the good, and immediate, fight....

[Old Mouse]

31. but it's old news

He was outted a long, long time ago. It is not a good time to push this old news to the fore.

Perhaps someone is stoking the gay vs. evangelical fire? Giving us something to keep on the talk shows?

[rhyfeddu]

33. It might be old news to US..

..progressives and those who read (still).

But I guarantee you 92% of this willfully ignorant country has never heard of this "blasphemy" before! (Remember more than half thought WMD=Saddam).

And I don't think the historian who wrote the book that started this thread, had any RW divisive agenda. I imagine he was just doing what historians jones to do: ferret out the truths of our past.

Now will our media try and turn this into some BIG issue of urgent national importance (screw the soldiers not having armour thing)? *sigh* Probably. And whatever other sensational "story" they can get hold of (or create). But not telling the truth (or searching for it), 'cause it might be misused and misrepresented is alarming all on its own, doncha think?

[Old Mouse]

36. And what realllllly pisses me off... what reallllly has me furious

That makes him bi, not gay.

[goclark]

52. Discussion is fine with me too

I do seem to remember that Lincoln slept with a man.

I find this information compelling and wonder if the talk show hosts will dare touch the story - NOT!

[rhyfeddu]

24. But WHY is this irrelevant to you?

Gay people where used quite successfully as a tool of division by the Republican party. The results being that Gays and Lesbians have been further marginalized by their own state constitutions, that spiteful gay-baiters feel emboldened to come out of the woodwork, that B*sh now feels he has a "mandate" to pursue a Federal (anti-gay) Amendment...etc. etc.

In this climate, I'd say evidence that the pillar of Republican Presidents (tho' I, too dispute whether he would recognize his party today), could himself had been gay - VERY relevant to those of us trying to hold onto our vanishing rights by our bloodied fingertips. It would be a BIG hypocrisy-thorn in the repugs anti-gay agenda side. At the least, wonderfully embarrassing.

I DON'T consider gay rights a distraction (like the Michael Jackson and Peterson circuses). But you can pass me a four year supply of Prozac, anyways...

[Mike Niendorff]

25. Ok, and when we're done debating that, we can get to the all-important...

... angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin debate.

Meanwhile, while the distraction machine churns, the real foot soldiers of the Republican movement continue to loot, pillage and burn their way through 100 years of progressive legislation and reform -- the same legislation and reform that built the middle class in this country and that has handed people like you and me the luxury of having these kinds of debates at all.

Perspective, people. Perspective.


MDN

[rhyfeddu]

28. There are short-term battles, AND long-term...

...Are we so limited we can't do both at the same time (and chew gum)?

Perspective? The perspective is: We all know the immediate battles before us. No one is suggesting getting this Lincoln-is-Gay theory into the next Dem platform. It's just interesting. To some of us. Doesn't mean the shiny metal things have dazzled us so much we won't see the jackboots coming...

[Old Mouse]

32. gay rights

were just handed some serious setbacks due to careful media manipulation. This was done not done because of any moral values, but because it provided divisive distraction and confusion at a critical time. The overwhelming majority of this country do in fact support the concept of gay rights, but it is crucial how you frame the argument.

That the subject of Lincoln's sexual preference should come up at a time the right wing is successfully making an issue out of a concept as trivial as whether stores wish you a Merry Christmas or not fills me with dread.

Its bait.

[rhyfeddu]

34. You think this historian and the NYT is setting us up?

Nah, its just there.

How it will be used from here by those wishing to spin it, IS a legit concern, tho'. Believe me, I know, I'm in Ohio, I have the spin induced scars...:eyes:

[Old Mouse]

35. Since when does the NYT care about old dead Lincoln?

Maybe not originally set as bait... Gay is hot right now because of the current social controversy. If there wasn't so much noise about moral values this wouldn't have been considered newsworthy.

Can you see the coffee shooting from the mouth of the southern baptist minister as he reads his morning paper? Lordy lordy lordy

[rhyfeddu]

41. I'm not sure I see YOUR strategy...

...Soooo, we liberals should not mention the word gay, talk about gay people, or act like there's nothing shameful about being gay, 'cause it might be used against us politically??

Just clarifying: What is it you think we should do that wouldn't be spun into whatever they WANT it to be, whatever slant they want to make it? Kerry pulled men out of a river, on a moving boat, through a hail of bullets, and still got branded a coward and a liar...

I don't ignore strategizing - but I'm not going to twist myself into a mental pretzel trying to out-double/quadruple-think the Roves of the world, or let myself become so paranoid that a book review in the NYT becomes poison bait carefully laid by Bushco.

[Old Mouse]

44. way beyond what I'm saying

But Lincoln is old news, nothing new here at all.

Papers get sold when there's controversy.

Right now controversial stories about a gay Lincoln would do the rights movement no good at all. But each and every activist I know can't resist, even when it is not in their own best interest.

A gay Lincoln would serve well to further ignite a growing persecution of civil rights by the church groups. Such amazing timing. The gay issue has only just slipped from the headlines last week.

This will get fanned up, and no good will come from it, and the gay community will feed the flames.

We black folk took it slow... first just get into the schools...

[rhyfeddu]

69. Papers CREATE controversy when there isn't any!

They don't need our help! IT WON"T MATTER!!!

If the media, the RW, WANT to spin against us (pick whatever "us" you want), they WILL. Our "behaving" ourselves won't matter.

Silence, inaction, out-thinking yourself trying to guess THEIR next move, will not make a piddlin' difference. If they can make John Kerry look like a lyin', cowardly bastard despite being SHOT numerous times in battle - it doesn't matter how many times and ways gays duck their heads and avert their eyes, we can get nailed if they decide it's profitable/in their best interest, respectively!!!

Extremist "church groups" need no excuse to mobilize against us! If you never hear the words "gay" and "Lincoln" together in a sentence again in your lives, they will still hate and/or fear us, and be working against us.

Playing it safe, playing it "smart", won't protect anyone. Sh*t will still be slung. Some will stick, regardless of the truth, or what we've done or not done - much less what we've dared to DISCUSS amongst ourselves or not discussed!

[BiggJawn]

48. But Mike! There was a SHARK ATTACK in 'Strylia today!!!

gotta get the total skinny on THAT story...

Aren't they a few months early with the sharks?
<sarcasm>

[sandnsea]

37. People still don't get it

All it turns into is another example of the looney left trying to smear the good name of a Republican. They'll do anything and say anything because they hate religion and moral values so much. If you want to fight for gay rights, then just do it. With lots and lots of taxpaying, hard working, gay families all over the media.

[rhyfeddu]

42. You're right. I've seen the light.

Gay rights and visibility have nothing to do with each other.

And we should never mention again anything that is not politically safe to speak about. Even if its true. Its not safe to talk about it. I know that now. I'll shut up.

That'll show 'em.

[sandnsea]

54. Did I say that?

Not in any way whatsoever. But there's ways to make a case where you'll be heard, and ways to just piss people off. The left is enormously talented at simply pissing people off. I would love nothing more than to see a massive ad campaign featuring nothing but gay couples with their kids, gay employees, grandmas and their gay grandkids, gay grandmas, and on and on. All people see in connection to gay rights is gay pride parades. I think the gay community is a little more than that and it's time to say so. Making a scandal about Lincoln does absolutely zilch to help the cause. But hey, do it your own way if you must.

[Voltaire99]

57. "The left is enormously talented at simply pissing people off."

Imagine: pissing people off when all they want is to be left alone to have nice little wars, rigged elections, hateful discrimination, and orgies of consumption and waste. Can you believe the nerve of that big, bad left?

Worry less about what right wingers think, my friend; worry more about the truth.

[sandnsea]

72. Like I said below

Pretending I'm saying to be silent makes it easier for you to ignore what I'm saying, so I understand why you go there.

[FiveGoodMen]

75. I second that!

[gottaB]

60. It points out the hypocrisy of the Republican gaybashing agenda

Why is Bush supportive of Alabama Congressman Gerald Allen's campaign to ban "gay speech" from institutions that recieve state money? How deep will they bury Leaves of Grass? Where does it stop? The issue raises vital questions.

Sure it's going to piss some people off to read about homoerotocism with respect to Lincoln. But a good many more people ought to be pissed off at the Republican agenda to limit freedom of expression. Americans are used to this kind of debate. We on the left should not shy away from it.

[rhyfeddu]

67. That campaign HAS been done..

...many times, in particular Human Rights Campaign, on and off, for the last few years...big, full page ads in the major newspapers about us harmless, "normal" gays, just trying to live our little lives..

<"All people see in connection to gay rights is gay pride parades. I think the gay community is a little more than that and it's time to say so."> And a revered President being gay or bi wouldn't be a great example of that???

BUT, I don't remember anyone on this thread, including myself, who said we should make an issue of this, or try and scandalize anyone (tho' the fact that its still a scandal to be even thought gay
IS the point, to me), or any comments of "Hey, fellow gay activist, lets beat the drums on THIS one!" I think people on this thread have talked about it much more than any major media ever will...

But remember, that silence never protected anyone. And no matter what we do - or how we act, they can spin it against us.

[sandnsea]

71. major newspapers

That's sort of preaching to the choir, don't you think? HRC needs to buy time on ESPN. Hardly sounds like silence to me. Pretending that's what I'm saying makes it easier for you to ignore what I'm saying though, so I understand why you go there.

[rhyfeddu]

73. I'm not ignoring what you're saying...

...I simply did not understand what you were trying to say in your earlier post ("People don't get it" - ironic)! It was confusing to me, as written.

IF you're saying the battle should be taken elsewhere, with different tactics, then fine. But, when I pointed out that one of your suggested tactics had been done, you quibble about the targeted audience. ..

So, please, feel free to join HRC or another group of your choice and share your specific ideas. If they help, I'll have no quarrel with that.

It would be nice if something did.

EDIT: addition

[sandnsea]

78. It would be nice

The target is crucial though. City people are already generally more tolerant, so putting ads in major newspapers doesn't seem particularly helpful to me. That's all. Every time there's a debate on a political talk show, I'd like to see a gay couple respond, not just a gay spokesperson. That's what I'm referring to. Gay couples EVERYWHERE. More like David & Keith on Six Feet. Who wouldn't love David & Keith?

Sorry if I wasn't clear, it's all so frustrating to me. It's like when a teen-ager is growing up, and ends up doing the exact wrong thing to prove their "adulthood". Sometimes it seems to me the left does more things like that than things that would actually help. Creating a hoopla over Lincoln seems to fall into that category and I sincerely hope that road isn't taken.

[rhyfeddu]

80. Sorry...

...if I jumped on you - I think I confused posters, too and that aided my confusion...

I understand the teenager metaphor. But my own frustration and fear is that we'll do the RW-ers' work for them and self-censure ourselves into oblivion.

I hope neither of our fears are realized...

Cheers :beer:

[InvisibleBallots]

56. hey, the System Works!

You forgot Britney Spears! Oh, wait, that was yesterday's distraction. I can hardly keep up anymore. Social Secua-what again?

[kayell]

61. And yet you found time in your busy schedule to chastise all of us.

I feel so special. It's nice to know that you deemed the time spent beating up on all the people reading this thread more important than the time you devote to preserving FDRs legacy.

[funkybutt]

20. I like this quote:

"Mr. Tripp charts Lincoln's relationships with other men, including Billy Greene, with whom Lincoln supposedly shared a bed in New Salem, Ill. Herndon said Greene told him that Lincoln's thighs "were as perfect as a human being Could be.""

I'm not sure what was meant by that ..but it doesnt sound like something that would come up in normal conversation

[JitterbugPerfume]

26. so what if he was gay?

think it would be cool to know that one of our most beloved and respected Presidents was GAY

[funkybutt]

29. i certainly don't care

i was simply commenting on a quote from the article. If Lincoln was gay, it certainly wouldnt change my opinion of him.

[6000eliot]

38. Yikes!

I really don't want to be thinking about AL's thighs right now. Thanks for the image! :scared:

[VegasWolf]

45. Sure, us guy's say that about each other all the time. I can't even

count the number of times I've remarked favorably about some guy's thighs.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

65. Sharing a bed

I've shared beds on trips and I daresay I wasn't as poor as Abe Lincoln was back in his day. This is one of the most laughable threads I've seen here.

Is the gay community this desperate to try and coopt historical figures?

[gottaB]

66. What Stuff!

I thought it interesting that Donald used "What Stuff!" to dismiss Tripp's argument, saying that Mrs. Fox was denying the rumor. But if Fox was denying the rumor, then according to two historians with contrary views on Lincoln's homosexuality, there was indeed such a rumor among Lincoln's contemporaries.

And of course, Tripp's view is shared by many historians. So who is really desperate to coopt historical figures?

[Placebo]

30. Yay! Go Gay Lincoln!

This is great, I remember hearing about it years ago, but I'm glad it's finally coming out.

[olddad56]

39. Lincoln could not have been gay, he was a republican. Impossibility

[VegasWolf]

47. Even if Lincoln was gay, it's waay too late for Rush to laugh at him now.

[iamjoy]

49. Look At It From a 19th Century Perspective

It wouldn't have been uncommon for straight men to share a bed. Sleeping together wasn't always sexual, it was a matter of convenience in a time before mass production and distribution made every day consumer products affordable. One would still want to feel comfortable and intimate with that person, not in a sexual way, but in a camaraderie and trust way.

Men did not have hang ups about commenting on another man's looks either. Because homosexuality was not discussed, men didn't "fear" being labeled homosexual.

Men used to kiss each other in greeting, it was a sign of respect, not always affection. I think this custom had largely faded in America by the mid-nineteenth century as society became more uptight about any physical contact, but this applied to contact between the sexes too.

By the same token, because (homo or hetero) sexuality was not discussed in this era, we would have few definitive qualifications about the sexuality of some one who lived then.

[mimitabby]

50. 19th century perspective

sorry, doesn't make sense to me. Lincoln was the president of the USA sleeping with another guy when his wife was gone??
He had enough room for a second bed! Where did the other guy sleep when the wife was at home?
and the other fellow talking about his lovely thighs?
sorry. I don't think so.
When it quacks like a duck... historians by nature editorialize
what they find. And most historians don't want to show a preponderance of evidence that one of our most important and beloved presidents could gasp have possibly had carnal knowledge of a man or two or three?
Me? I love it...
I'd love it even more if we could see it on faux news, but it isn't going to happen.

[VegasWolf]

51. Easy to explain. In those days the White House was much smaller.n/t

[Cooley Hurd]

64. This is true...

The 2nd floor living quarters were also used for administrative purposes. This was resolved when TR had the West Wing built in 1902...

[iamjoy]

53. I Mean What You Read About Lincoln

try to look at that w/19th century perspective. We should not apply today's standards and "norms" to people who lived a hundred fifty years ago.

I've also read that Lincoln was quite a "flirt" with the ladies. There was a woman he was courting before he married Mary Todd. This other woman died and Lincoln was heartbroken. And supposedly, Mary "tricked" Lincoln into marrying her.

It's hard to say if he was homosexual or not, why does it matter? To rub it in the faces of every uptight homophobic Republican? They'll never believe it anyway, but rather than debating it intellecutally, they'll fly off the handle.

It is sad that because homosexuals have been persecuted for so many generations, they were forced to conceal their sexual identity and we do not know the contribuitons they have made to our society. We have only rumor, speculation and assumption.

[Voltaire99]

58. "To rub it in the faces of every uptight homophobic Republican?"

Heh--sounds like something Gaybraham Lincoln would do. ;-)

In any case, yes, why not? Homophobic Republicans deserve to have their illusions torn down. A culture predicated on lies is best served by truths--the more uncomfortable, the better.

Fuck Republicans. Lincoln would. ;-)

[Swamp Rat]

59. HAHA! So would GW!

[VegasWolf]

74. Only if they have lovely thighs. n/t

[Old Mouse]

55. He does have a point

Social rules change drastically. And in those days a bed was damn cold.

I worked in Japan with a Hollywood entertainment company for a year. A man would hold another man's hand in public, but not a woman's... construction workers with pink, lacy umbrellas... It took months for everyone to reset their gaydar.

[Orangepeel]

68. Isn't this why "log cabin republicans" have that name?

because of the belief that Lincoln was gay?

Seriously, I thought that was where the name came from.

[Withywindle]

76. This whole thread's really interesting...

...One thing to keep in mind is the "Mary Cheney" disconnect. When Kerry said the dreaded L word in the debate, I (and I bet a lot of other liberal/progressive/etc.) didn't think all that much of it at the time. To me, it's just one of those "there it is" kinda facts--but to the RW bigot crew, it's a LOT more emotionally loaded. To them, having a lesbian daughter is, at best, a family tragedy, and to bring it up in public is to twist the knife. But "our side" doesn't even see the knife--because to us, it's just no damn big deal.

It's breaking a taboo that only exists on one side of the aisle.

Of course RW Republicans will take this book as an insult--they take most everything "intellectuals" and progressives and queer folks do, just being who we are, as an insult. That doesn't mean that had anything to do with the historian's motives, or ours for discussing it, because we have a completely different perspective on what being gay or bi means or doesn't mean (I hope so, anyway). To think that we should refrain from discussing it because of RW wrath--man, that's some very tortured logic to me! Nuh-uh.

And to get panties in a twist because it's about history and not current election fraud and other immediate crises....dude, I hope you're posting this in every single thread on this board that's not about election fraud, cause otherwise just singling out THIS thread for particular censure is making me wonder all sorts of things.... ;)

I'd like to check out that book. Sounds interesting.

[David Zephyr]

77. Salon: C. A. Tripp and Larry Kramer on Queer Abe from 1999

Excerpt from SALON on Larry Kramer, C.A.Tripp and our Gay Uncle Abe:

May 3, 1999 | The 28-year-old traveler was tall, with rough hands, a chiseled jaw and unforgettable, deep-set, melancholy eyes. He arrived in town, his worldly possessions in two battered suitcases, and inquired at a general store about buying some bedding. But the price was far beyond his budget. The strikingly handsome 23-year-old merchant took pity on the man and invited him into his own bed, free of charge, which happened to be just upstairs. The traveler inspected the bed and, looking into the merchant's sparkling blue eyes, agreed on the spot. For the next four years the two men shared that bed along with their most private fears and desires.

If this sounds like the opening of a homoerotic dime-store novel whose subsequent scenes feature fiery loins and ecstatic eruptions, hold your panting. The year is 1837, the place Springfield, Ill., and the leading men none other than our 16th president, Abraham Lincoln, and his lifelong friend Joshua Speed.

Larry Kramer, the 62-year-old gay rights hell-raiser, Academy Award-nominated screenwriter ("Women in Love") and Pulitzer-nominated playwright ("The Normal Heart"), wants to change all that. In February, at a gay and lesbian conference in Madison, Wis., he read a portion of his unfinished book, "The American People" -- which, in the course of describing the history of gays in early America, avers that Lincoln and Speed were not merely bedfellows but lovers.

"There's no question in my mind he was a gay man and a totally gay man," Kramer declares. "It wasn't just a period, but something that went on his whole life."

Complete Story here at Salon:

http://www.salon.com/books/it/1999/04/30/lincoln/

[mimitabby]

79. thanks for the link! n/t

[DoNotRefill]

82. Well, when you consider that Lincoln urged the ethnic cleansing.....

of african-americans, there's not a whole lot about him that could surprise me....