Bush overwhelmingly captures Catholic vote

[lovuian]

http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/news/special_packages/election2004/10122797.htm

Bush overwhelmingly captures Catholic vote

By JIM REMSEN

Philadelphia Inquirer


PHILADELPHIA - Alongside President Bush's overwhelming support from his evangelical Christian base Tuesday came another dramatic election result: Bush reversed his 2000 showing and convincingly captured the Roman Catholic vote.

Catholics, who have become a closely watched swing vote, favored Bush over Democrat John Kerry by 52 percent to 47 percent, according to national exit polls. That is a turnaround from 2000, when Bush got 47 percent to Democrat Al Gore's 50 percent.

The shift translates to 16.1 million Catholic votes for Bush - an increase of about 3.3 million from four years ago, said John Kenneth White, professor of politics at Catholic University in Washington.

more...

Like I said the Pope should have put a Vote Bush sticker on the back of his chair!!! And the irony is Kerry is Catholic!!!

[thedailyshow]

1. dovetails with my minority politics research paper

[GetTheRightVote]

2. The real Irony is that the Pope believe * is the anti-Christ

sad, very sad

[mikh]

12. ...no no no...

...the Pope believes Hilary Clinton is the anti-Christ (or hang on, is it George Soros?)

[amber dog democrat]

57. No its the Chimp.

Cimp is the antichrist. But this the same denomination that brougth on the Spanish Inquisition. I would expect nothing other.

[KansDem]

60. Yeah, and he told Bush if he went to Iraq...

...that he would "go without God."

So let me figure this out: 52% of Catholics favored Bush even though the "second in command" to God way he is working "without God."

And some people wonder why I don't attend church...

[SteveIrving1]

97. Odd similarities

I've read Revelations and yes there are some very creepy similarities

[latteromden]

3. I had a Catholic friend that went from pro-life, to pro-choice,

back to pro-life, and then starting BELIEVING in the concept of choice again, but refused to turn back again because of her religion, and with each switch, went from Republican, to Democrat, to Republican, to conservative independent.

Are there seriously 16.1 mil. people like this? Uff da. THAT'S a swing vote, if I've ever seen one.

[ebayfool]

38. this is OT, but I get a tickle from seeing Uff da!

We named one of our cats 'Uffda' - it so fits her.

[proudbluestater]

4. 52 percent to 47 THAT'S Overwhelming?

Overwhelming is 60-30. 52-47 is definitely underwhelming in my book. Must be the same writer who declared Bush has a "mandate."

In other news, the earth is flat.

[QC]

9. I was thinking the same thing. But they've always set the bar very low

for L'il George.

[Zinfandel]

5. And I can "capture" the Buddhist vote, cuz, I have electronic voting

machines...

Smokescreens and more smokescreens to perpetuate the lies for MANDATE!

Media, fall in line....

[leftchick]

42. exactly!

I am Catholic and MOST Catholics I know voted for Kerry. Yet we all voted on touchscreens here in NC, so maybe we didn't !

:grr:

[jdots]

6. I can't do the comment,it's too gross

Everyone else here will probably have the same thought about this. ok something about what priest have done is the same as what "W" is doing to the world.

[SoCalDem]

7. A pro-lifer is someone whose 14 yr old has not become pregnant

Pro-life is easy.. Choice is difficult..

If people are so stressed these days that they are content to have *² do their thinking, that's what we get..

[merh]

18. I also know pro-lifer's that were pro-choicers in their early years,

having made a choice when young, but now that they are born agains, they are ate up with guilt and believe it is their place now to not let others make the same mistake they made.

What ever happened to "judge not lest ye be judged"?

[LiberalFighter]

66. Everyone with a conscience is pro-life...

Anyone who demands that everyone cannot make decisions for themselves are dictators and do not have a conscience.

Anyone that demands that mothers must die to save a baby is insane and is a fanatic and do not have a conscience.
Anyone that demands that mothers impregnated by their father or raped is insane and is a fanatic and do not have a conscience.

If they make a decision for themselves to have the baby based on their life and body and mind then they are choosing (pro-choice).

If they make a decision for themselves to not have the baby because it places their life at risk or their physical health at risk or their mental health at risk then they are choosing (pro-choice).

[Smarmie Doofus]

8. 52-47 is "overwhelming?" I'm underwhelmed, personally,...

especially since, if ex-catholics are figured-in,Kerry has to win in a romp.

The church is a dying institution in the USA ( deservedly so) and is counting on new converts in the third world to stem it's losses.

It's not gonna work. It's gotta change or die.

[Ilsa]

13. Catholic "mandate" n/t

[NashVegas]

88. I'm Beginning to Understand Why Many Sports Writers Don't Like Bush

In how many sports is a 5% split overwhelming?

[SharonAnn]

96. Yes, many of us no longer call ourselves Catholic and we voted for Kerry

In some parishes, the majority of the members who are still there are very conservative Catholics. Key words are "very conservative". They go for the "dictator" stuff, er "strong father" stuff.

Moderates and liberals don't agree with that and many have left the Catholic Church.

Two friends of mine, life-long Catholics for more than 60 years, have left becasue of the pro-* campaigning in their parishes.

[On the Road]

10. To Anyone Wondering Where Bush Got 3 Million New Voters

here they are.

[DustMolecule]

11. Funny this report....

...considering that

1) the Pope practically 'begged' GWB not to begin this war with Iraq and, in fact, sent a special envoy to meet with the pRez (who only him a short 25 min. or so before blowing him off...)

2) the Pope 'more than asked' GWB NOT to begin this "clash of cultures" between the middle east and the 'western world'

3) in the run-up to the 2004 elections, the pope told American catholics to consider the total issues/character of the person running for office when they went to cast their ballot. He told them that the abortion issue was just ONE ISSUE. They should consider the entire package.

It seems that the current head of the catholic church has his 'head screwed on straight', I would presume that "the flock" is listening...

[tsuki]

28. Didn't the US Catholic Bishops break with Rome on this one because

they supported tort reform and settlement limits?

[RazzleCat]

58. Yeah but the Bishops were rabid for Bush

I know that my Bishop (Burk) was one of the ones (maybe the first one) to tell us that a vote for Kerry would be a sin, and if you did so sin you would have to go to confession and ask for forgiveness.

[VegasWolf]

77. Really? Are you kidding? Did anybody buy this line? n/t

[w4rma]

90. Yup. That's what happened. Many Catholic Bishops ignored the Pope here in

America and even went so far as to declair the voting for Kerry was a sin.

So Sen. Kerry, who is Catholic, lost the Catholic vote to a group of people who think that Catholics are Pagans (many of whom didn't vote for Sen. Kerry BECAUSE he is Catholic).

[patdem]

14. Are they using the polls that said Kerry won? You know all those disputed

polls? Seems they use those polls to prove everything pro bush** and yet the ACTUAL EXIT POLLS ON WHO YOU VOTED FOR was somehow distorted???

[daleo]

29. Yes, exit polls are trotted out when convenient, ignored otherwise

Just like exit polls proved fraud in the Ukraine, and were unreliable in the U.S.

[merh]

15. It wasn't the Pope.

In June or July, the weed had an audience with the Pope. He kept the Pope waiting for 20 minutes before he showed and I would venture to guess that he was seeking the Pope's support. The Pope would not give it to him, he told him he would pray for him (and I bet he meant for our nation). The Pope has condemned the war in Iraq and has condemned the US's practice of capital punishment. He also has condemned the torture in Iraq.

It was the US Bishops misinterpretation (on purpose) of the letter from the Vatican relative to what Catholics must consider when voting for a candidate. Basically, the letter said Catholics should not vote for the candidate based on one issue (pro-choice vs pro-life), but rather based upon all issues (pro capital punishment, supporter of programs to help the impoverished and the outcast, war mounger, etc.). The Vatican letter said that all issues should be considered and the way the letter was written, no "thinking" Catholic could vote for Bush over Kerry. But...

The bishops sent out letters leaving out the capital punishment, helping the impoverished, anti war issues, and focused on "pro-life vs. pro-choice" and that gay marriage thing. The bishops were all courted by the rethugs that promised that tort reform would help them with their litigation woes. Since most diocese throughout the US have had to pay "hush" money because of the pedophiles with a collar, and most have had to "suffer" the costs of litigation because they failed to kick pedophiles out of the clergy, the bishops jumped at the chance to back the guy that would give them the relief they needed. That magic cure all, tort reform.

The bishops sold out their parishioners for the 30 pieces of silver offered by the rethugs, they wanted to save their churches, their alters to themselves, from bankruptcy.

The Pope did not do this and the bishops that did will have to answer for it, for they have the blood on their hands, the blood of our soldiers and the blood of 100,000 Iraqi civilians. I can't bring myself to step foot in a catholic church, for her leaders sold us out.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

16. The Americans Bishops are responsible 100%!

[merh]

22. You said it!

:argh: :mad: :mad:

[bklyncowgirl]

35. American Bishops made this a single issue for many voters.

The Pope is responsible only indirectly because he appointed many of these bishops.

Pope John Paul is clearly opposed to abortion but he ruled, probably because of his outspoken opposition to the Iraq war and his progressive stance on economic issues, that Catholic voters should not vote on abortion as the only issue.

Unfortunately His Holiness's rather nuanced approach urging voters to consider the full range of Catholic moral teaching did not make it to the flock.

[ElectroPrincess]

52. They also didn't speak out against the war ...

Also, with regard to the invasion and how it does/not fit in to our "just war" criteria ... the American Bishops were often paraphrasing the Pope. Such as, "What the Holy Father means is ...", A second interpretation of what the Holy Father wrote is...".

It was absurd IMO to not just understand that often people of faith must take the *tough* but genuinely moral stands. Nope, the American Bishops just re-interpreted The Pope's words that ended up putting a fox news spin on all writings released from the Vatican.

Unbelievable :(

[Malva Zebrina]

40. I think you have hit the bull's eye--good analysis

not to mention the corroding schools needing equiptment and repair with a little money from the state, and half empty churches needing faith based money(welfare) for their "charities"

Indeed, they have blood on their hands--as did that same church, when it joined arms with fascist regimes in the past.

Alliance with the government actually restricts the freedom of religion.

[rodeodance]

46. Thank you for this informatitve summary. Great

[Boosterman]

54. woah

thats seriously wrong on their part. Do you have any links to stories about this?

[merh]

69. Links to what

the audience with the Pope?
the Vatican's official position?
the BS position taken by US bishops supporting the weed?
tort reform?
peodophiles?
bankruptcy?

No official article has been written (that I know of) that makes this analysis, but if you read the Vatican's official letter and realize that the US bishops position contradicted it by omission, then you can deduct that they were bought and sold us out.

[forintegrity]

17. The exit polls were also "adjusted", so I don't believe any of this!

The American Bishops need to keep their big mouths shut! They're a another highly dysfunctional, secretive group that covers up the truth about their abuses, too! See any similarities here?

[Just Me]

19. That is SO inconsistent with every Catholic I know.

It's simply unreal.

The "Pope" sent a delegation to oppose Bush's Middle-East policy.

The "Pope" suggested (then, his "spokesministers" retracted) that Bush is antithetical to Christ.

This is simply,...poppycock.

It's PSY-OPS,...at work,...and profiteering.

Prove me wrong.

Prove me wrong.

[Greybnk48]

20. Polls are a load of crap...it's been in all the papers! n/t

[lovuian]

21. I think the parishes being bankrupted by the Pedophile suits

made the church want to play nice with Bush. They had alot to loose in the court system and Bush would maybe protect them. Rigali is definitely mafia. Its just like the Middle ages when the Church tryed to interfere with Englands legal system. This was true evil!!!

[Old and In the Way]

27. My take, too.

Bishops have become extremely conservative....and they definitely are concerned with the Republican media's power to influence the public opinion on the Church's problems with pedophilia.

Hard to believe they'd turn their backs on Kerry.....and endorse someone who starts wars under false pretenses.

[VegasWolf]

80. Nail on the head. it's all about money, always has been. Church's

are losing attendance, people aren't believing as
they once did. And correspondingly tithes are way down.
As society matures the number of "churched" drops.
Here in the US with out Puritan heritage the number is
still in the high 40's. In Australia it's much lower.
In Europe the average "churched" is only 22%. I think
all religions in the US are losing money and sheep and
this is why Jerry Falwell et al are pushing the "values" crap
so hard. just my guess.

[KittyWampus]

98. So If Catholics Aren't Going To Church, They're Not Voting For Whom

the clerics are telling them. They couldn't care less.

Sorry, this is bullshit.

Are the exit polls correct (Kerry won) or not (Kerry lost Catholics)?

The Mediawhores already lied saying Kerry lost younger voters...

[fshrink]

23. Thanks!

At least, now it's clear.

[Chicago Democrat]

24. A increase of 5% in a religion that loses 5% of its members in

4 years due to sex scandals is NO increase.

[Smarmie Doofus]

25. That's what I MEANT to say ! Well put.

[NVMojo]

26. this catholic didn't vote for that idiot!!!

:grr: :nuke: :grr: :nuke:

[Gayad]

76. vote

Neither did I.

[acmavm]

84. I didn't vote for him either. But they had my kid come home and tell me

to vote for bushler* because Kerry was pro-abortion. So I sat my son down and told him the truth. And my Grandson. They both know how I feel, and they both understand what really happened.

My son wanted to go to Catholic school. I figured I'd give him this year and let him try it out. He likes it. But I work very hard at keeping him morally balanced. They tell him something stupid, I tell him the truth. In the end, when he's given all the facts, he pretty much sees the hypocrisy involved.

[Merlin]

30. Can anyone say "ABORTION" !

Oh, apparently not on DU.

It's verbotin! Fingers in the ears everybody! Pay no attention. Ignore! Ignore! Ignore! Mock! Spit! Insult! Flame!

Do NOT listen to ANYBODY who points out that ABORTION IS KILLING THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY!

Because that would be "threatening a fundamental constitutional right" and other lame flames.

[Poppyseedman]

32. Yup, 100% right

When I read the article that is the first thing that popped into my head. The abortion vote

In the debates Kerry was weakest when he tackled issues like abortion. He did not articulate a very clear message especially to single issues voters who make abortion one of the key principles on who they vote for, mainly catholics

With scientific advances in neonatal imagery, the party must adjust it's position to no abortions after a certain week, to where a viable baby can live outside the womb.

It's a wad of tissues just doesn't fly anymore.

[Cheswick2.0]

33. Then you will be happy to know that is the law now

women don't have abortions after viability unless it is medically necessary to save her life or health or because the fetus is dead or incompatible with life after birth.

Problem all solved.

[Poppyseedman]

36. That is certainly news to me.

I'm pretty up on issues. When did this law get passed?

As far as I know the law still says you can get an abortion pretty much up to term with the exception of partial birth abortions.

[Cheswick2.0]

48. then I am glad I could give you the good news

Please show me a law that says that abortion is legal up to term in all circumstances. BTW what the heck is a partial birth abortion?
The procedure you are talking about called a D&E, and is the procedure used in late term abortions because it is the safest for the woman's health. It is done in the cases I mentioned and you can not show me any data or law that says otherwise.

[Poppyseedman]

61. It's actually called a D & X

Okay, sanitize it if you want to

Only in the case of mothers death should that happen. But you and I both know it is done by healthy women who simply do not want to burden of giving birth. Rare, but it happens.

More from PP concerning a D & X:

About two-thirds of the 30 or so laws passed (including those of Arizona, Michigan, Nebraska, New Jersey, and Ohio) have been enjoined either temporarily or permanently by federal courts.

There are about 10 states in the union that ban "partial birth abortion" the rest of the country has unlimited ability to have the procedure done.

From Roe v Wade
the state's interest in maternal health becomes compelling at three months; (8) the state's interest in fetal life becomes compelling at viability--six months; (9) the state may not regulate abortion at all during the first trimester; (10) the state may regulate abortion during the second three months, but only for the protection of the woman's health; (11) the state may regulate or ban abortion during the third trimester to protect fetal life.

Casey ruling overturned the trimester framework and now undue burden is the standard.

{i}while retaining the "central holding" of Roe v. Wade, overturned its trimester framework and its "strict scrutiny" standard of review, in favor of a new "undue burden" standard, proposed by Justice O'Connor, and a floating viability line where the state's interest in fetal life becomes "compelling."{/i}

Bottom line is in about 40 states there is unlimited abortions up to term.

So you are right, 10 states regulate D & X producures

I'm wrong

[Merlin]

71. It would be news to a lot of people. Though technically, it's true.

In Roe, the 1st trimester is the only time an abortion can take place without restriction. But Roe's rules about the 2nd tri are very ambiguous and hence no real restriction.

You made a brilliant point about medical imagery having changed the terms of the debate. Thank you for pointing that out. It is so true.

We can no longer afford to ignore the morality question. It is abhorent to me that people I know and respect, who are Catholic, actually vote with the right wing SOLELY BECAUSE of abortion. They are our natural allies, and would vote with us if we could resolve this issue.

[merh]

79. Resolve the issue?

Tell them to judge not unless they want to be judged. According to the New Testament, they should not judge the woman that has an abortion simply because they think it is immoral. If they do that, then they are the sinner. The New Testament also provides that they are to pray for the sinner and hate the sin.

Tell the idiots to read the Vatican's official statement and not to believe the rants of their bishops.

Weigh and consider all issues, not just the abortion issue. War, torture, feeding the poor, taking care of the sick, capital punishment, those are some of the other issues that they SHOULD have considered before casting their vote. The Beautitudes is a marvelous reference for those poor confused Catholics and all Christians.

[Cheswick2.0]

34. well then you have a real problem

The party can start defending choice and telling the truth about it, rather than pandering to the rightwing anti-choice brigade. Or the party can lose millions of women.
Discrediting the Catholic Bishops and right wing movement of the church would be a better alternative if you want to stop losing elections.

[Poppyseedman]

39. telling the truth about it

Telling the truth about choice is exactly the problem!!!

The vast majority of people in this country look at abortion as a necessary evil. Medical technology is making the pro choice case look more evil every day.

People are not so black and white on issues that it has to be hard split on a pro-life / pro - choice divide. There is room for sound medically ethic and political agreeable middle ground.

As long as the democratic party is the party of unlimited abortion rights, we are not going to get reasonable people on the pro life side to move back to the party. There are a lot of them out there who don't look at the abortion issue with political eyes, they look at abortion as a parent. We will lose that battle every time.

[Cheswick2.0]

49. ah... abortion is evil says the man who will never have to make that

choice. :eyes:

What exactly is the middle ground you are talking about? I'll bet it has to do with you making moralistic judgements about my civil rights. You have shown in another post that you don't know what the law says about abortion. I think you have been listening to propaganda from the anti-choice crowd. But I am willing to rethink my opinion if you can explain to me exactly what middle ground you are talking about.

[Poppyseedman]

63. I am very familiar with what the law says about abortion.

Nothing to do with moralistic judgments about your civil rights. Bear in mind those civil rights were granted to you by an opinion of nine judges

Do I think abortion is wrong. Yes I do. but it would be just as wrong for me to make that decision for you.

The middle ground is very simple to me.

Unless there are serious health issues with the mother, any baby that can survive outside the womb should have the same rights as the mother.

Politically speaking, we as a party needs take a position that is not so radical as to turn away people who think abortion is a necessary evil in our world.

Most reasonable people would think that if a baby can survive outside the womb, it should be given a chance to live. A lot of people who check off democrat could live with that party position who are single issue voters.

[Merlin]

72. Exceptionally well said, sir.

I honor your wisdom and your courage.

As long as the democratic party is the party of unlimited abortion rights, we are not going to get reasonable people on the pro life side to move back to the party. There are a lot of them out there who don't look at the abortion issue with political eyes, they look at abortion as a parent. We will lose that battle every time.

[LynnTheDem]

31. 5% is "overwhelming"...

I guess for people who consider 2% a "huge mandate", then 5% is "overwhelming".

And a 5" dick is a whopping monster. :eyes:

[ElectroPrincess]

37. Not my vote ...

However, the letter covertly condeming politicans who are pro-choic which was in our Parish Bulletin at the mass right before the election; my fellow Parishioner wives handing out * bumper stickers and YARD signs in the church parking lot; and the partisan statements by folks I associate which break my heart, "I don't know about * but I HATE John Kerry." ...

YES it's very difficult to continue to love my fellow Catholics who are so seemingly willfully ignornat and to continue as a practicing Catholic when I don't believe in blocking abortion clinics. My IMHO my fellow Catholics seemingly have been duped by the Protestant Christian Right.

But I believe in my heart that I must continue to practice my faith. Our parish does good works for the poor and even have an Hospice outreach program. Other than these intense misleadings cemented by watching FOX cable, I love the people who I worship with.

I can't give up on "the good" that resides in my Parish. However, I don't dare speak out at this time lest I become ostracized.

I pray for their enlightenment and work on the programs that I KNOW Jesus would want to be nurtured.

[Cheswick2.0]

51. why do you keep blaming protestants for your church's position on

choice?

Let your church take responsibility for it's own behavior. No one has been duped, the RCC has been preaching against abortion since it became legal.

[Malva Zebrina]

59. and they have been also preaching against birth control

since it came on the market. And still do, last time I looked. Yet, we see no preaching or no question of a presidential candidate about his position on birth control.

The problem rests when it becomes significant in skewing a presidential election,and in this case, against a distructive fascist, ignoring the fact, as Kerry said, that were he to be elected, he would have many different people, of all persuasions under his watch and that they ALL have to be protected under the law of the Constitution. Which was a position a Democrat would take or would have taken. Further, the protection of the minority from the tyranny of the majority, is a precept upon which this country is founded.

THAT is when it becomes , not a church, or a religion, but a political movement whose relligious idiology has NO place in the secular government. It is no better than Pat Robertson's attempt to make this a Christian nation, infiltrating political venues, and stealthily introducing Christian Reconstructionist ideology into it.

It is fine to preach it to it's believers. Let them be that influential in guiding their own believers,(although they have not had much success with birth control pills) but let them not try to be the guide for the entire nation.

It is disturbing how critical thinking, or knowledge of the Constitution, is avoided, and how bright eyed and bushy tailed men and women, flush with holiness, from the political propaganda preached on the pulpit by perhaps a Republican priest, or an Opus Dei priest, set out to hurt other people, mostly because, or at the least, unconsciously, because, they fear going to hell or the wrath of their god who will PUNISH THEM--they therefore seek to punish all WOMEN, in the grand old patriarchal tradition, in order to save their own souls.

This movement in the Catholic church is flush with excitement over a possible "win" re abortion, eager to see women and their rights, diminished and very comfortable knowing that their children do not have to grow up in a country that supposedly respects the rights of all people in it by allowing abortion and women's health clinics to continue.

That they are comfortable knowing they would be hurting and maybe even tacitly responsible for the death of a women who would be relegated to back alley abortions once more, says a lot about the church's adamant stand to seem to need to harm another human being, a woman in this case, or at best, it's forced pregnancy of a twelve or thirteen year old child.

[LiberalFighter]

67. Yet they supported infanticide in the Middle Ages

[0007]

41. This just goes to show ya how strong the media and their

propaganda is and how stupid people in this country are.

[Ms_Mary]

43. I'd think if 3% is a mandate, they could find a stronger word for 5%

because 5% certainly is the overwhelming vast majority of Catholic Americans... :eyes:

Maybe the Catholics I know are disproportionately liberal? Which is interesting, considering it's an overwhelmingly conservative southern baptist area.

[kristndem]

44. I thought

Exit polls were unreliable............................

[rodeodance]

45. saving the woman's life is important to many--but not to the Repugs-

when it comes to late term abortions. In that book, this can not be compromised.


poppyseedman said:
....As long as the democratic party is the party of unlimited abortion rights, we are not going to get reasonable people on the pro life side to move back to the party. There are a lot of them out there who don't look at the abortion issue with political eyes, they look at abortion as a parent. We will lose that battle every time.>>>>

[Mend]

47. Highest users of abortion....

In the early years of legalized abortion, Catholic females had the highest rate of any group, probably because they didn't use as much birth control. They always said, "I don't believe in abortion but in my special case....yadda, yadda". Same thing goes on with the fundies who line right up for it for their "special cases", too.

[Cheswick2.0]

56. I worked in a women's health clinic and Catholic women

were the majority of our business on days we did abortions. The main reason I can give is that they did not like the sin by planning sex, therefor did not use birth control. One woman told me that being swept away in the moment was human and weak but not as bad as planning to have non-marital sex.
These were often the poorest women who came in also. The number one reason for abortion is lack of money and healthcare. The catholic church would do better to allow birth control and preach voting on economic issues. Then the abortion rate rally would go down.

[The Judged]

50. Bush is the ultimate Theocratic Party candidate! The Pope yearns ...

for the Catholic Churche's return to glory days of centuries ago.

In fact, electronic voting and tabulation machines allow for Catholics to have their votes changed to reflect the Popes candidate of choice without their knowledge. How perfect is that!

[adigal]

53. Strict Catholics I know

all voted for Bush because their priests, through their bishops, told them that if they voted for someone pro-choice, they would have to go to confession before they received Communion. The Pope is against the war, strongly.

I, being a lapsed catholic, can tell my bishop to go pound salt.

[alcuno]

55. Catholics in blue states voted for Kerry and Catholics in red states

voted for *. I looked at the "exit" polling data and it comes down by state. I'm in Illinois and Kerry took the Catholic vote at 54%. Same for Wisconsin, Minnesota, Michigan, etc.

It's geographical, not philosophical.

[cally]

65. Do you know the breakdown of Catholic votes in Ohio?

I think the Catholic vote in South Dakota swung away from Daschle. I had a friend working in S.D. for Daschle's campaign and she said that she kept hearing that Dems are 'baby killers' and against marriage.

We have to reframe the debate. Republicans are using this issue against us and we have to figure out a way to stop them. Using the term 'pro-choice' as our response to 'pro-life' just isn't working. Kerry tried by saying he's personally opposed to abortion but against the state making that choice for others. I don't think most of these voters knew that was his position. I'm not advocating changing the Dem position on choice but rather advocating that we need a better way to present our position.

[alcuno]

83. South Dakota is a red state so Catholics vote like the majority.

As for Ohio, I'll go look. I'd guess it went for * because apparently the state did.

On Edit: Ohio Catholics went 55% -44% for *. No surprise. The closer Catholics are to fundamentalists, the more likely they are to vote like them.

[cally]

86. Thanks for checking

It's interesting.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

62. proud to be a 47%er here & the Pope did NOT back bush!!!!

[leesa]

64. Lot of blood on their hands.

Guess a few Hail Mary's will cover the 100,000 dead Iraqis.

[LiberalFighter]

68. Looks like overwhelming(ly) only mentioned in headline and first paragraph

I wonder if the editor wrote that part.

Author is Jim Remsen of the Philadelphia Enquirer

[donsu]

70. seems reasonable that pedophile bishops would like smirk

and 1/2 of all catholics are religiously insane and are OK with allowing pedophile bishops and priests to remain in their churches. so sure they would vote for smirk.

and 1/2 of all catholics think they have the right to tell all women what they can and cannot do with their own wombs.

poor things.

[iowa_democrat]

73. Our local parish priest

was preaching against Kerry from the pulpit for each of the three sundays proceeding the election, according to the lady who cuts my hair. she was so mad she just about gave up on church. This is what no wall between church and state gets you.

[genieroze]

101. Start taxing them and watch the deficit shrink. eom

[area51]

74. Bob Jones

I can't believe Catholics would vote for Shrub after he went to Bob Jones University & kissed anti-Catholic Bob Jones' ass.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

75. Read This: National Catholic Reporter ...Sister Joan Chittister, OSB

The Independent Newsweekly:

http://www.nationalcatholicreporter.org/fwis/

"The spirit we have, not the work we do, is what makes us important to the people around us."

Joan Chittister, OSB Is a Benedictine Sister of Erie, Sister Joan is a best-selling author and well-known international lecturer. She is founder and executive director of Benetvision: A Resource and Research Center for Contemporary Spirituality, and past president of the Conference of American Benedictine Prioresses and the Leadership Conference of Women Religious. Sister Joan has been recognized by universities and national organizations for her work for justice, peace and equality for women in the Church and society. She is an active member of the International Peace Council.

Doubt: the new substitute for proof?

Politics, I have come to believe, is both science and art. The science lies in its discovery of the messages it will take to get candidates into office. Its art lies in its display of the amount of righteous indignation it will take to get political enemies out of office.

The science is called polling; the art is called smear tactics.

The calculation of its high art rests in the fact that some of its most effective negative messages now come couched in high tech packaging skillfully done. Like the famous Willie Horton-capital punishment ads used to frighten voters away from Michael Dukakis, for instance, or the Swift Boat anti-Kerry campaign, or the relentless media pursuit of wrongdoing in the Clinton Whitewater investigation. They were all smear. Meaning that they were all groundless or misapplied messages. None of them were touted because they were unequivocally true. On the contrary, they were designed primarily to create doubt in the minds of the electorate around incidents that had nothing at all to do with the issues at hand but about which voters felt deeply.

The Whitewater investment case went on for years but never produced even the slightest evidence of Clinton wrongdoing. Presidential candidate Dukakis never said he didn't support life terms for wanton murderers, only that he himself did not support capital punishment. The Swift Boat campaign cast Kerry, a decorated war veteran who had the moral temerity to protest an immorally conducted war, as some kind of traitor to American ideals.

Who can forget the images? Who is there who doesn't remember the constant dinning of the ideas into the American mind by every major TV news program, every radio talk show, every news magazine in the country. The best American technology has to bring to the propagation of ideas was devoted to the packaging of the material, however little proof, however little substance there was to any of them.

So much for what we teach sixth graders about a person's being considered "innocent until proven guilty" in this country. Instead attacks based as much on innuendo and guilt-by-association as they are on data thrive.

As Tom Delay himself said recently in defense of his own attempts to retain the chair of a congressional committee, despite the threat of indictment for campaign finance irregularities, "No, I should not lose the chairmanship over this," he argued. "After all, anybody knows you can indict a ham sandwich if you want to."

What's even more troublesome, then, is the fact that the practice is not only increasing, it seems to be approaching the credibility of legal judgment in the public mind. If a thing is said over and over again, it must be true. No questions asked, little doubt entertained. Or as one studiously ignorant arm chair philosopher was wont to declare as irrefutable evidence of almost anything outrageous, "Where there's smoke, there's fire." That was enough for him and assertion seems to be becoming enough for us, too.

As a result, leaks, rumors, planted information and, finally, the kind of rush to judgment modeled by CBS's misrepresentation of George Bush's military record, based on forged documents even amateurs recognized at first sight, have become the coin of the realm.

Now we may well be on the brink of an even bigger miscarriage of justice in the name of righteous outrage.

Five Republican members of the House of Representatives have introduced a resolution into Congress calling on the U.S. government to withhold American dues to the United Nations pending the resignation of Kofi Annan as secretary general of that body. The charge is that Annan's son, Kojo, received "no compete" contract monies from a Swiss firm that monitored the U.N. Oil for Food program. The implication, of course, is collusion or dereliction of duty or worse, graft. And that without a single shred of evidence.

Kofi Annan, who has held senior positions in the U.N. system since 1987, and staff positions since 1962 says he had no knowledge of the association. Annan, as this week's standing ovation in the General Assembly indicated, is almost universally respected by other U.N. member nations. None of them are calling for his resignation over this issue.

Nor should we, it seems, given our declared philosophy of law, without thorough investigation of the situation.

After all, no one called for George W. Bush's resignation over Vice President Cheney's relationship with Halliburton, the bigger winner for Iraq war contracts. No one called for George H. Bush's resignation over son Neil's involvement in the billion dollar taxpayer loss accruing from the savings and loan scandal. No one called for Jimmy Carter's resignation over brother Billy's $200,000 connection to the government of Libya.

more.

[bunny planet]

78. Let me guess, they determined this from..... the discredited exit polls!

[LiberalFighter]

81. Catholic Bishops that interefere in elections

Sacramento CA
Bishop William Weigand

Colorado Springs CO
Bishop Michael J Sheridan

CO
Archbishop Charles Chaput
(Bush appointee to the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom)

Wheeling-Charleston IL
Bishop Bernard W Schmitt

Evansville IN
Bishop Gerald Gettelfinger

South Bend/Ft Wayne IN
Bishop John M D'Arcy
(Disinvited Governor Kernan to South Bend's St Joseph High School Commencement)

Kansas City KS
Archbishop James P Keleher

St Louis MO
Archbishop Raymond L Burke

Lincoln NE
Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz

Newark NJ
Archbishop John J Myers

Camden NJ
Bishop Joseph Galante

Paterson NJ
Bishop Arthur Joseph Serratelli

Trenton NJ
Bishop John M Smith

Erie PA
Bishop Donald W Trautman (1990- )

Scranton PA
Bishop James C Timlin
(Barred Gore from Hospital)

Sioux Falls SD
Bishop Robert Carlson

Corpus Christi TX
Retired Bishop Rene Henry Gracida
(Delivered the benediction at the Republican National Convention)

Green Bay WI
Bishop David A Zubik

Lacrosse WI (formerly)
Bishop Raymond Burke


Cardinal Francis Arinze

Organizations

Catholic League
President William Donohue

American Life League
President Judie Brown

[zann725]

82. And he "captured" that vote, compliments of Diebold, Triad...

Oh come on folks,we have NO idea what Bush really won anywhere!

[errorbells]

85. Amen to that!

O8)

[lakeguy]

87. why is it that the media touts results from these exit polls

but the ones showing kerry ahead are all wrong?

[booksenkatz]

89. And yet evangelicals HATE "Mary worshippers!"

Every fundie I've ever known has told me that Catholics are going to hell because they "worship Mary." When I dated a Catholic for a coupla years when I was in college, the Baptists and evangelicals in my circle of friends/family went batshit.

So I suppose the Bush cabal certainly welcomes the Catholic vote, but I hope Catholics aren't sitting back waiting for some kind of reward, unless they consider the New Crusades a reward (and perhaps they do). Still, even if Bush took over the entire world, it would be the evangelical God who'd be in charge, dontcha know -- the Catholics would be sent to the gas chambers, along with the atheists, Jews, Muslims, etc. That's how much the Bushes think about Catholics. Too bad the Catholics don't see how they're just being used.

[CatholicEdHead]

92. Exactly

and if you look at the right wing Catholic media, it is a Evangelical-Fundie form of religion just slightly modified for Catholics. It is a trojan horse if I have ever seen it.

Look into Relavant Radio, National Catholic Register, Ave Maria Radio (Kestra in the Afternoon), etc... for more.

Much of the reason they are taking these stances are to try to clean up their image over the sex scandles. It is a way of saying "look over there".

[Kimber Scott]

91. Exit polls? Right. We're supposed to ignore them in the broad sense

and pay attention to this little tidbit of bullshit. Can't have it both ways.

[AngryOldDem]

94. The hypocrisy is stunning, eh?

But I can't say I'm surprised.

Signed,
An Ohio Catholic who voted for Kerry

[Redleg]

93. 52% to 47% is hardly overwhelming

Just goes to show you how effective the anti-kerry stuff from certain Catholic bishops was in getting Catholics to vote for shithead.

[high density]

95. Overwhelmingly?!? I'd hate to see the adverbs used if the

spread was greater than 5%!

A few loud people in the Church were playing these stupid mind games on Catholics that were magnified greatly by our lazy media: "Catholics must vote on one issue: abortion!"

I'm not a practicing Catholic anymore (a horribly hypocritical priest who railed endlessly against material things while asking for money at the same time, combined with the last election cycle disgusted me with the Church), but I can't understand these Catholics who supported a candidate who has done nothing to help the poor and who has bombed the crap out of a country for no other reason than corporate profits.

[genieroze]

99. Was that the real exit polls or the later exit polls that showed Bush

winning? I think it's BS.

[yorkiemommie1]

100. not this Catholic! n/t