WP: Precision of Base Attack Worries Military Experts

[Pirate Smile]

In April 2003, as the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq was ending, the Pentagon projected in a formal planning effort that the U.S. military occupation of the country would end this month.

Instead, December 2004 brought the deadliest single incident of the war for U.S. forces, with more than 80 casualties suffered yesterday by U.S. troops, civilian contractors and Iraqi soldiers when a U.S. base near the northern Iraqi city of Mosul was blasted at lunchtime.

At least 19 of those killed in the attack on a mess tent at the city's airport were American soldiers -- more U.S. troops than have been lost in any other major incident in the fighting, even during the spring 2003 invasion. Before yesterday, the worst incidents were the deaths of 17 soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division in the November 2003 collision of two UH-60 Black Hawk helicopters, also in Mosul, and, two weeks before that, the loss of 15 soldiers when a CH-47 Chinook transport helicopter crashed west of Baghdad. All three occurred after President Bush's May 2003 declaration that major combat operations in Iraq had ended.

The major difference between the latest attack and the earlier incidents is that it was an attack on a U.S. base, rather than on troops in transit in vulnerable aircraft. That difference appears to reflect both the persistence of the insurgency and its growing sophistication, as experts noted that it seemed to be based on precise intelligence. Most disturbingly, some officers who have served in Iraq worried that the Mosul attack could mark the beginning of a period of even more intense violence preceding the Iraqi elections scheduled for Jan. 30.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17892-2004Dec21.html

[newsguyatl]

1. frightening indeed

and i feel so bad for the good guys over there, but i must say, i'm sure glad bush is left with this fuck up he made.

enjoy it you bastard.

[artemisia1]

24. True.

Something tells me that Kerry was personally very lucky that he lost the election. Too many landmines were set during GW's first term. Kerry would have been the scapegoat for all the pigeons coming home to roost.

[Tight_rope]

34. I give thanks everyday that God blessed Kerry by not letting him win!

I don't ever see the US leaving Iraq or ever winning the war.

[Just Me]

2. Shallow ones: worry about the policies that delivered this FUBAR!!!

Instead of being in a "MUST WIN" zone, you stupid self-centered pansy-ass suck-ups,...

Awwwww,...get your butts on the front-lines.

You don't think or negotiate or problem-solve. You are STUPID dictators.

I prefer sacrificing "stupid" people first.

BAH!!!

[TahitiNut]

3. If more than one round hit the mess tent ...

... then they were accurate, indeed. When we dodged incoming in 'nam, we had about as much an idea where they'd hit as the VC who launched 'em - none. Yet they hit an MP hooch two away from mine once, and the warrant officer hooch another time. Sadly, lack of accuracy doesn't mean lack of death.

[Johnyawl]

5. my experience was a bit different, TN...

..when the NVA were hitting us with mortars they were VERY accurate, but when they were shooting at us with those 122mm russian made rockets they couldn't hit anything on purpose. Our joke then(a little combat black humor) was that they were lucky to hit the ground with them.(The Vietnamese threw the rocket launchers away coming down the Ho Chi Minh trail. Those suckers weighed 400 lbs, were bulky and easy targets. They built bamboo launchers to fire the rockets from once they got down south, which is why those rockets were so unreliable.)

The mortars were different, as I said. It's possible to become very accurate with mortars, seems like some guys just had a 'feel' for them. This DOES sound like they knew precisly where, and when to hit. Which makes me - and every soldier there - think it was inside information passed to the insurgents. This was common in Vietnam, and made us hate, and suspect, all Vietnamese. It'll do the same thing in Iraq. Our guys won't trust the Iraqi soldiers, and will treat them with open hostility and contempt. BTDT. It's fucked.

[burrowowl]

7. There are

large towed rifled mortars that are damned accurate .... were there any in Saddam's arsenal, now taken over by the insurgents?

[TahitiNut]

9. At Long Binh, we almost always got the 122m RPGs.

From what I was told, they'd set 'em up in a nearby ville and leave 'em on a time delay fuse as they didi-mau'd. We had computerized fire control artillery that could 'see' the incoming and track back to the point of origin and lay in rounds within not too many seconds, but they were useless since the villes would have too much 'collateral damage' and usually no VC by that time. We got a few mortars the night of the Tet attack (2/23/69). Yes, it *was* different. Sounded a LOT different.

It wasn't much of a trick to grid out the targets on post. We had scads of Vietnamese working on post, from chit-burning and hooch maids to barbers to office workers.

Speaking of 'office workers,' here's a pic I took back then of some of the gals who did office work. (That was my hooch in the background.) The gal in the pink ao dai was (obviously?) one of my favorites ...

[Florida_Geek]

18. I spent a couple nights at the Data Processing company's

barracks in Long Binh, and lived thru one rocket attack. It hit a near by building, didn't go off, just hit the building. I went over and saw is sticking thru the roof LOL. The guys there said, they were always getting the short ones :) . It seems their building were on a direct path from the fence to the Officers quarters..... the VC LOVED Officers....

[TahitiNut]

21. Well, if you were there in '69, we probably saw each other.

I was assigned to USARV HQ DSC at Long Binh, January through November 1969. Our office building was adjacent to the General's compound. I don't ever recall a rocket hitting within their compound. It was our section of the southern perimeter that was attacked the night of February 23rd by an augmented battalion of NVA. Three sappers made it into the post, I was told. (I was a bit too busy to notice.) Our barracks were on a direct line from the southern perimeter to the officer's barracks on the near north side of the "jungle" (really just a drainage area in the center of the post). Most of the time I was billeted above the arms room and the company commander's offices.

[Florida_Geek]

22. I was in Nam in 69

:) and in Long Binh doing a traveling computer programmer thing.

I had the 2000 computer problem early,,,, in 69 :evilgrin: The Army computers used a 1 digit year and the rollover from 9 to a 0 could have caused a melt down.... We fixed it or patched around it.

[TahitiNut]

26. We must've met! I worked mostly on the RCA 301/501 gear.

My MOS was 74F20. I did a little work on the Univac 1000 - just enough to have fun. My primary work was (re)designing and implementing the Strength Accountability System and then the Enlisted and Officer Personnel Requisitioning Systems. Interesting times.

[Florida_Geek]

28. I was 74F20 -

I worked on the IBM 7010/1460 (and a 360 running in 7010 mode :) )

[Sugarbleus]

10. My hubby still has issues with Viet Namese People because of

what you described. It's easy for me to tell him to lighten up, I wasn't there....

What a supreme FUBAR this action in Iraq is!

[antonialee839]

19. My son who eats in that very chow hall

and is reading over my shoulder and happens to be on leave, says it was a lucky hit. They've been lobbing mortars that way for a long time. My son hates eating in that place.

[Sugarbleus]

8. 'Nam Vet hubby is sick to his stomach over this...he had to take sedatives

and go to bed.

He described a situation similar to the one you just did..where, in effect, the guys were sitting ducks. They'd complained about their location/safty but nothing was done and many lost their lives with these types of attacks....

Not only is this invasion of Iraq illegal and UNNECESSARY, this is the WORST military campaign planning I've ever seen since Viet Nam!


My heart goes out to the families with "boots on the ground"
My heart goes out to innocent, confussed, and scared Iraqi people also..

[dbt]

32. So MUCH hard-earned WISDOM from the Nam Vets in this thread!!!!!

Jebus Cripes, y'all are just walking Encyclopedias of the hazards a nation faces when it tries to fight a people who are convinced that they have been invaded for no good reason!

The least your country could have done would have been to listen to you before it launched another Viet Nam.

All Americans owe y'all more than we can ever repay!

:loveya:
dbt

[Theres-a]

37. amen!

[burrowowl]

4. Heard a reporter

this morning on NPR's Fresh Air. He said that the Iraqi Troops were told to wear red tape on the sleeve and white tape on the leg (or vice versa) of their uniforms to reduce freindly fire' incidents. Some Iraqi troops met up with a Marine unit and the Marines paused. Well the Iraqis weren't friendlies. Marine killed and other wounded. Info is leaking out. In another incident, the Marines didn't pause and killed some women.
And so it goes .....
Been watching the Amazing Race, some of the contestants talk and act like if people aren't Americans, they are stupid.
Fraid not, the Iraqis aren't stupid either.

[Bhaisahab]

16. That's an old problem, esp with hollywood shit that promotes

this kind of thinking- "...if people aren't Americans, they are stupid."
Its one of the reasons Americans in turn are ridiculed by the world. the pot calling the kettle black sort of situation here.

[signmike]

23. "The Ugly American" was written a LONG time ago.

worth reading. (Late '40s/ early '50s? - I read it around 1960...)

[StaggerLee]

38. I agree

I read it as a bored 19 yo sailor in 1986.

I definitely recommend it.

[msongs]

6. support the troops, bring them home.............

indeed!

msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[steely]

11. one quote sums it up....

"This sure isn't playing out like I thought it would," said retired Marine Lt. Col. Jay Stout...."

If this expert doesn't know what to do, you get them off the job and bring them home.

[SariesNightly]

12. The planning we have

This is Rummy's god-sim. Any other SoD would've got fired by now.

[Bhaisahab]

17. welcome to DU SariesNightly! n/t

[SKKY]

13. This sounds and smells like an inside job to me. Someone had help. n/t

[ausiedownunderground]

14. What a bloody mess'all

Some really interesting news coming out of all OZ media outlets, both Independent and mainstream today about Iraq. Its like the censors have gone on strike today.
1) Saddam Hussein's genocide charges have been dropped, due to, wait for it, LACK OF SUFFICIENT EVIDENCE!!!!!!!!! WTF!

2) Arab media sources are reporting that the attack on US forward operating base at Mosul was a truck bomb, not a missile or mortar attack. They are also reporting much much higher casualty figures!

3) Iraqi Guerilla sources are saying they have a video of the attack and will be releasing it within the next 24 hours. If this is true then we will hopefully find out if it was truck bomb,missile or one of The Smirking Chimp's exploding plastic turkey's he sent the troops for christmas.

4) Several hours after attack on US troops mess hall, Mosul airport was attacked by 120mm mortar barrage wounding several more US troops. The guerillas are getting more and more confident. They could know something on the ground that the US military is too gutless to tell the rest of the world. US may well have lost effective control of the battlefield!

5)Whatever was used by the guerilla's in this attack it could mean that the perimeter of this US base is not secure!!!How many other US base perimeters are not secure?

6) Arab media reporting is also reporting a heavy barrage attack on ABU GHRAIB prison in the last 24 hours. It appears that the guerilla's were able to blow gaps in both perimeter walls, technically making it no longer a prison! These attacks targeting enemy forces and their symbols of repression are very clever tactics from the guerilla's. It wouldn't surprise me if many iraqi's are quietly rubbing their hands together in glee!! at the US military's predicament. It's also likely to be a great recruitment weapon for the guerilla's.

7) And just to top off their plan, several hours after the attack on Mosul the guerilla's announced the release of the two French journalists they had been holding for what appears to have been months, thus rubbing salt into the Smirking Chimp's wound and delighting the French and other European's.

[Tight_rope]

36. Thanks for the up...Good to hear true news about what's really going on!

[daleo]

15. Bush will go for the "brutal and repressive stance" option.

"But others were throwing up their hands. "This sure isn't playing out like I thought it would," said retired Marine Lt. Col. Jay Stout, author of a book about the 1991 Persian Gulf War against Iraq, in which he fought. He said he is no longer confident about what the U.S. strategy in Iraq should be.

"We have few choices: We can maintain the status quo while trying to build an Iraqi government that will survive, we can get the hell out now and leave them to kill themselves, or we can adopt a more brutal and repressive stance.""

[TahitiNut]

25. "We have few choices: ..."

The problem is that there's absolutely no planning or analysis to indicate that any of their "choices" will have a better result than replacing the ducks in the shooting gallery. Even that "choice" has nothing to indicate either the outcome or the cost, in lives and treasure. People make claims and gaze into crystal balls of varying cloudiness, but nothing has yet been shown that a proper A/B decision-making process has been undertaken. Indeed, absolutely everything indicates they haven't the least idea what will come next. This is, by far, a potentially deeper and more painful clusterfuck than Vietnam.

The most reliable information we have indicates that 80% of Iraqis want the US to get their fascist asses out post haste. There's absolutely no probability of anything resembling a "democracy" in the face of the reckless disregard for that degree of opposition. Indeed, it's a virtual certainty that such opposition can only exacerbate conditions.

[leftchick]

30. Edwin Black had your exact assessment on Lou Dobbs last night!

He did not express it as eloquently as you TN! :)

He is the author of the book Banking On Baghdad. It was quite shocking to see someone saying what we here talk about daily. You can not force a Democracy on this Arab country, the 'elections' are a lose lose situation, and the troops need to come home but won't because it is all about the Oil! I thought Kitty Pilgrim was going to have a coronary!

<snip>
New York Times and international bestselling author Edwin Black uncovers Iraq's hidden economy and the companies that profit from its upheaval
Big business and global warfare have long been fiery and symbiotic forces in Iraq. Banking on Baghdad tells the dramatic and tragic history of a land long the center of world commerce-and documents the many ways Iraq's recent history mirrors its tumultuous past. Tracing the involvement
of Western governments and militaries, as well as oil, banking, and other corporate interests in Iraq, Black shows that today, just as yesterday, the world needs Iraq's resources-and is always willing to fight and invade in order to acquire and protect them.
While demonstrating that Iraq itself is partially to blame for its current state of turmoil, Black does not shy away from the uncomfortable truth that war and profit have also played an equal part in creating the Iraq we know today. Just as he did in IBM and the Holocaust, Black exposes the hidden associations between leading corporations, war, and oil-such as the astonishing connections between Nazi Germany, Iraq, and the Holocaust.
He exposes the war and race-based profiteering by some of the world's most prestigious corporations, as well as the political and economic ties between the Bush administration and the companies that gain handsomely from its foreign policy. Just as he did in War Against the Weak, Black offers a compelling blend of history and contemporary investigative journalism that spans a century and eschews easy answers for complicated questions.
Edwin Black (Washington, DC) is the award-winning New York Times bestselling author of IBM and the Holocaust, The Transfer Agreement, and War Against the Weak. His journalism has appeared in the Washington Post, The Village Voice, The Sunday Times (of London), and The Los Angeles Times.

[Florida_Geek]

20. How stupid are the MILITARY

it was FUCKING LUNCH TIME and a two hundred man tent. It does not take a major brain to figure out, Lunch = People in Tent eating LUNCH.

and remember KBR uses Iraqis for cooking. I am surprised the troops have not be poison.

[qazplm]

27. lol actually no

they use phillipinos and other third party nationals.

All Iraqis are off the post by 3-4 pm, and none of them are serving chow.

[Florida_Geek]

29. Well Lunch time ti 12:00pm and one program on TV

had KBR using Iraqis in the food service.

[Skittles]

31. I tell you if I was there I would not comingle with 100+ poeple at ANY tim

and YES I was in the military. I would get my food and RUN. :o

[dbt]

33. There will ultimately be a missile into the Green Zone.

Watch for it--and watch attacks like the Mosul Incident as fine-tuning.

:freak:
dbt

[abb9]

35. Nam

I was in Nam in 69 too,a little later,got there in May 69 at Ben Hoa,got assigned to 1st Air Cav 5/7 bataliion Grunt,11B,thats the Infantry batallion,
The few times we were in the rear,we always got rocket attascks,but mortar rounds were the deaddliest for us in the field,took out a whole lot guys whenever they zeroed in on us,worse in day time, because we can not see the muzzle flash or the sparks from the launchers.
Shrapnel from Mortars got me on a firebase at about5 30 pm one eveining of dec 69,goy medivacted to Japan.

[enough]

40. Welcome to DU, abb9

The atrocity of the US's devastation of Iraq has for months been reminding me of the sickening way it felt to be an American during the Viet Nam war. The sense of repeating history has made it all the more nightmarish.

I can't imagine what this must be like for those who were actually in Viet Nam. As someone said earlier in this thread, I really appreciate the insights and knowledge that our DU veterans bring to the table here.

[MetaTrope]

39. Looks like Saddam's intel officers have finished their U.S. training

and returned home to fight for the BFEE.

"As the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq was ending"--Wha'?