Local Muslim school taken aback by letter

[maxrandb]

More RED State Tolerance!

I could not believe this article. A private Muslim school asked to join an association of private schools, and the letter they got back is CHILLING!

Funny, there were no questions asked of the parochial schools as to whether they believe "woman who commit adultary should be stoned to death" (Leviticus) or any other nutty crap from the Bible. This is what we are heading for folks.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/2960589

A national Islamic organization has demanded an apology from a Texas-based private school association after claiming its director took an "alarmingly intolerant and hostile attitude toward Islam and Muslims."

In his correspondence, Burleson quoted a verse from the Quran as calling on Muslims to be violent toward Christians and Jews. He noted that most TAPPS member schools are Christian. "Why do you wish to join an organization whose membership is basically in total disagreement with your religious beliefs?" he asked in the two-page letter, which included 10 questions.

He asks about the school's attitude toward "the spread of Islam in America" and the goals of the school "in this regard."

Finally, he suggests that some TAPPS members may not be tolerant of Muslims: "Why do you think that the current member schools of TAPPS will not be biased against your school, based on the fundamental difference in your religion and Christianity, since about 90% of TAPPS schools embrace Christianity?"

[pinerow]

1. Ahhh...The tolerance of Christians is so refreshing...

nt

[doni_georgia]

7. Tolerance

You do understand that not ALL Christians are like these people? In fact, the fundamentalists are a minority in this country. I really see no difference in a Christian fundamentalist who discriminates against all who disagrees with him and a "liberal' who thinks that all Christians are equally bad. There are many of us here on DU who are Christians and liberals. Here lately we have't seen a lot of tolerance on DU toward us.

[GOPBasher]

9. Some ultraleftists become intolerant in the reverse direction.

They need to stop that. By the way, I think a real interpretation of the gospels of Jesus leads to liberalism, not conservatism.

[Bono71]

13. Agree 100% n/t

[maxrandb]

16. Arghhhhh!

It's because the right is so intolerant of us! I'm tired of turning the other cheek, only to get it fractured. I happen to believe that God doesn't give a shit about whether you're Republican or Democrat. Old Georgie has God pretty busy right now with all those fresh muslim souls he's arbitrarily sending to death.

But, for the past 20 or so years, the media, with the help of the Republican Party and the Religious Right have made this a fight about who is Christian and who is not. Same as they've done with the military. I'm an effing active duty Naval Officer, and I've got Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hanity saying that I am wishing for more American dead in Iraq. All because I am a Democrat! I want to scream it from the effing mountaintops.

"I AM AN "EFFING" DEMOCRAT!! I LOVE MY COUNTRY!!! I BELIEVE IN CHRIST!!! "I AM A CHRISTIAN LIBERAL DEMOCRAT, AND I WANT MY GOD BACK FROM YOU SICK F#*KS THAT HI-JACKED HIM!!!"

[The Stranger]

35. The problem is that the Christians who are tolerant do not confront those

who are not. Instead of being part of the solution, they become part of the problem.

[QC]

44. I call bullshit.

What do you think the Episcopalians who stood up for Gene Robinson against the haters in this country and the third-world homophobes who are trying to drag the Anglican Communion around by the tail were doing?

It would have been much easier to kill Robinson's nomination before it ever came to a vote, but a majority of lay and clergy delegate voted for Robinson, knowing that it would provoke a firestorm, because it was the right thing to do. They stood up to the haters and have paid a heavy financial and emotional price for it.

This is only one example.

Frankly, your post reminds me of all those right wing claims that Muslim leaders have never condemned 9/11 when in fact a lot of them have.

[maxrandb]

48. Or How About the Catholic Bishops

who wanted to deny communion to anyone who voted for John Kerry?

On the other hand, if you wanted to invade a helpless country and butcher thousands of innocent people (either on purpose, or by accident), it's OK...."Step right up and feed on the flesh of Christ"

Why don't more people get it?

[regnaD kciN]

97. Interesting that you choose to focus...

...on some frankly disgusting actions by a handful of R.C. bishops, then go on to claim that the (presumably Roman Catholic) Church was supportive of the Iraq invasion, managing to conveniently ignore that the Pope was strongly opposed to the Iraq war, and even sent a message to Bush, prior to the invasion, that "if you go into Iraq, you go without God."

Like I said earlier, some people here have such an animus against Christianity that they will only see (and memorize for all eternity) items that put it in a bad light, while filtering out anything that might present it in a more positive (for progressives) sense.

:eyes:

[The Stranger]

74. Call whatever you want.

And thanks for your example. Meanwhile every single day the intolerance is spewed from the pulpit and the vast majority don't say a thing because they defer on the basis that the spewers call themselves Christians. If the majority, who are tolerant, stood up to those who are intolerant, it would make all the difference in the world.

[Cheswick2.0]

121. bullshit

It is just as much your responsibility to stand up as it is mine.

[regnaD kciN]

96. Good analogy...

Frankly, your post reminds me of all those right wing claims that Muslim leaders have never condemned 9/11 when in fact a lot of them have.

Christians are far from monolithic, and the religious right has been drawing strong criticism from less-conservative Christians since the former first emerged some twenty-five years ago as the Moral Majority. But the press (which knows little and cares less about religious controversies) will generally only go with checking out whichever party has the biggest media empire, and it's far easier to check out a few televangelist shows on Pat Robertson's network than to actually get out in the field and investigate the matter for yourself, particularly if you're a reporter who would prefer to be working the politics or crime beat rather than being assigned to cover a story about a religion you may not have any interest in.

On the other hand, as I noted earlier, there certainly are a number of DUers who come to any issue with a hatred of Christianity, and will only look at evidence that can be used to present it in a bad light.

[Dem2theMax]

102. Excuse me? How in the world do you know what I, as a liberal

Christian, do to help, not hurt, this horrid problem?

Where oh where have the tolerant people gone? I thought I would find them on this board. Boy was I wrong.

[manly]

116. tolerance

I don't see what difference it makes, as all religions are about 10% myth and 90% bullshit.

[Straight Shooter]

53. "You do understand that not ALL Christians are like these people?"

I think that's widely understood. From what I'm seeing, it's the so-called Christians in positions of authority and power who are "like these people.

It might be argued that it's a skewed perspective, because the ones with this kind of attitude make the news. The anger which should go towards people like the letter-writer, it ends up being sprayed on everyone who claims to be Christian, just like everyone who claims to be a Democrat gets the wrath of a lot of so-called Christians who call us godless.

It's another good argument on the side of separating church and state.

[Politicub]

57. Cry me a river, martyr

Why don't you climb down from that cross? Somebody else could use the wood.

Christians are a majority in this country. The bulk of Christian ideas that seem to be getting all the press are ones that I vehemently disagree with. You can't silence me with your whiny threats.

[doni_georgia]

84. Which whiny threat would that be?

You know, I have just about had it with the hate and intolerance here on DU. I don't need this shit. I am a liberal and I live both my political beliefs and my spiritual beliefs. Ever since the election there has been nothing but hatred and derision on these boards for Christians and southerners and I happen to be both. You know, we're supposed to be on the same side. I worked my ass off this last election to try and help Dems get elected. It's people like you that cause many people who are somewhat liberal politically to vote for repugs. Anyway, I am through. Sick of this whole bullshit of bashing others instead of working toward a solution. Like someone said earlier if you're not part of the solution you are part of the problem. I'm done sitting on my ass arguing with liberal Archie Bunkers.

Adios!

[Politicub]

92. Where is the hate and intolerance in my post?

Point it out to me. I'm very tolerant of Christians who don't force their beliefs on me. My quip about being a martyr was tongue in cheek, and inspired by all of the mindless whining going on. It's hard to repress a majority, and that's what Christians are in this country.

And, I'm a southerner, too. But I'm not naive enough to think that there is nothing with this region. Maybe I see it differently than you do because I am gay and I face overt and subtle intolerance quite a bit in the city of Atlanta and state of Georgia.

And we are on the same side, at least I hope that we are. I don't understand what you want, from the the Cristian perspective. Do you want all posts questioning Christian belief to stop? What about those that point out how wacky some fundamentalists tend to be? What would you like to see?

I'm asking an honest question. Enlighten me. What you may seem as derision may be a real criticism that is worthy to be addressed.

[shadowknows69]

114. well said n/t

[Bono71]

89. Ah yes, the good ole tolerant progressive democrat.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[regnaD kciN]

98. Point taken, but...

...don't you see that your exact line of argument is the same as that of liberal Christians about fundies -- the same line of argument that the anti-Christians here so loudly deny?

:shrug:

[donco6]

59. I don't think "all Christians are equally bad."

Some are definitely worse than others.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jayfish]

3. Just A Quick ?.

Do you believe everything the bible says to the letter?
Welcome to DU. :hi:

Jay

[pinerow]

4. I suggest you continue to hunt snipes...

and while you are at it...get some left-handed hammers.

the "Christians" referred to in this article are not the Christians of the New Testament...These are legalistic elites who insist that their beliefs should also be yours.

[KC21304]

6. But isn't it Leviticus that is quoted by Falwell

and his followers to bolster their anti-gay teachings ?

[TahitiNut]

24. Falwell is an "Old Testament Christian"

Which, of course, is a contradiction in terms. To subordinate the Gospel (i.e. "good news or New Testament) to the Old Testament is to deny the basis for Christianity itself. (This is why I abhor the term "fundamentalist" since there's nothing at all 'fundamental' about such a stance.) This does not bother "Old Testament Christians" who really have no theological basis for their stances - only secular appetites and animosities.

[RetroLounge]

66. Falwell is an "Old Testament Christian"

Wouldn't that make him a Jew?

RL

[TahitiNut]

77. No. Not even close.

Such a conclusion would indicate very little comprehension of Judaism. To Jews, there is no "Old Testament." The books that Christians call the New Testament are not part of Jewish scripture.

See http://religion-cults.com/Judaism/escript.htm Please note that the term 'scripture' is taken in its literal sense: "writings". The role and relevance of thse writings to people of different faith traditions (particularly Christian, Jewish, and Moslem) cannot be equated.

I coined the phrase "Old Testament Christian" with a little more than cartoonish understanding of why the Old Testament forms a part of the Christian Bible. It's a history of which most aren't aware, nor are most aware of why there's a "concordance" in the first place.

[slutticus]

80. But the Old Testament is derived from the 5 books of Moses, Correct?

Genisis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy




I see nothing incorrect about RL's comparison.

[TahitiNut]

81. Do more study.

You can start at the link I provided.

Here's another - http://www.jewfaq.org/torah.htm

[Igel]

90. No, he isn't.

Geesh. There are "Old Testament Christians", and he ain't one.

Seventh Day Church of God, Church of God International (if it's still around), etc. Saturday sabbath, OT holy day observance (no Xmas or Easter), most avoid unclean foods. Most tithe (all 3 of them), and even follow the laws concerning harvesting fruit and fields.

Falwell? Hah.

[NYC]

94. Probably Leviticus.

I saw an anti-gay poster once that quoted a particular chapter and verse from Leviticus. So I read Leviticus. There are a whole lot of people who need killing, according to Leviticus, not just gays.

[maxrandb]

10. Yeah

It's sooooo obvious that the whack-job that wrote the letter really practices what is taught in the New Testament.

You ought to read it sometime (the NEW Testament, I mean). Lot's of stuff in there about taking care of the poor, caring for sinners, visiting prisoners, forgiveness and tolerance, sacrifice, love, peace and kindness.

Not one word about tax cuts! Not one word about discriminating against gays and lesbians! Not one word about pre-emptive war! Not one word about how sometimes "torture is OK! Not one word that says shop at Wal-Mart! Not one word that says vote for *, or go to hell.

There is quite a bit about false Christians and Pharisees though. Probably right up your alley. I suggest you read Matthew. If you did, you'd condemn the person who wrote that letter.

It will all work out though. I am convinced that in the end, people like Falwell, Robertson and the rest of the "spawn of Satan" promoters of "Supply side Jesus", will, like Judas, wish they had never been born.

[pinerow]

12. I suggest you not sit on the fence about this topic...

tell us how you really feel... :toast:

[BiggJawn]

21. "Most" christians?

Sorry, Snipe, The ones we're talking about have read Leviticus and Revelations and damn little else.They do not understand Jesus' statement "I am come to fulfill The Law", nor can they recite the Sermon of the Mount beyound the Beatitudes, and that's assuming that they actually READ the bible, as opposed to just letting some guy with a "divinty degree" from the Close-cover-before-striking bible college stand in front of them and teach them HIS particular interpretation of the Bible Wednesday night and twice on Sunday.

And these are the people trying to take over our government and hasten the coming of "armageddon", which indeed shows just how little they understand their religion.

But I'm not going to be terribly comforted by the knowledge that those who put me in some concentration camp for being an Atheist are practicing false doctrine, because it'll suck just as much as if they were enforcing "God's Will".

In other words, why are ou so concerned with the splinter (my dislike of religion) in my eye, while you ignore the fucking barn timber (Jerry Foul-Well) in you own?

[TahitiNut]

31. (LOL!) "Close-cover-before-striking bible college" ... good one!

Here's the archetype of them all: http://www.moody.edu/

This is the "Institute" founded at the outset of this bizarre faux-Kristian Kult back in the 19th century.

[regnaD kciN]

99. Not quite true...

The ones we're talking about have read Leviticus and Revelations and damn little else.

They've also generally committed to memory a few verses from Paul...like the passages condemning gays and demanding that women "submit" to their husbands.

:eyes:

They generally don't know much of the Gospels. I used to wonder at that, but I have come to realize that fundies tend to hold to the same ultra-Anselmian view of soteriology typified by Mel Gibson's Jesus Chainsaw Massacre...I mean Passion. In that view, what Jesus taught is not all-that-important...the key thing about Jesus was that he consented to be the "divine punching bag" that would allow God the Father to work out his anger against humans for sinning (in the persons of Adam and Eve). To those fundies, Jesus has little appeal except for suffering and dying so that they themselves could get a "Get Out Of Hell, Free" card. All that talk about loving enemies and caring for the poor merely gets in the way. :eyes:

[TahitiNut]

113. Except Paul wasn't really talking about gays.

He was talking about priests who kept young altar boys (girls weren't permitted in such church roles) as sexual playthings. If anything, Paul was talking about pedophilia.

[Trajan]

34. Why did 'god' change his mind ? ...

Wasnt it perfectly settled in the first place ? ..

[donco6]

60. So what did Jesus mean when he said,

For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called reat in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:18,19, NASB

I hear that argument about the Old and New Testament all the time, but it doesn't seem to jibe with what Jesus said. Keep in mind, that when he said this, the NT didn't even exist.

[ktowntennesseedem]

72. Keep in mind also what Jesus said from the cross...

The Matthew passage refers to nothing changing until everything is accomplished. But his last words from the cross, just before dying, are "it is finished." One interpretation is that these were not merely the last words of a dying man, but that Jesus' death finally accomplished everything the law left unfinished.

[donco6]

76. So heaven and earth passed away when Christ died?

?

[TankLV]

101. I thought he said "Paul - you know I can see your house from up here?!"

And then, when Mary finally approached - he told her "Mary, get me some pumps - these spikes are just killing me!"

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Flammable Materials]

39. Still waiting.

...







............

[jayfish]

50. Stop Or...

you'll miss-out on Christmas :evilgrin:

Jay

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RetroLounge]

67. She must be busy praying for my soul.

else she'd be here and OUTRAGED I tell you, OUTRAGED!

RL

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GOPBasher]

8. Theocracy in the USA.

[Bono71]

11. Let me see...

1) When a "Christian" outfit does something rediculous we are quick to condemn and make blanket statements about all Christians.

2) When a Muslim country like Iran stones a girl to death for having consensual sex, we state that Amnesty International doesn't have its facts correct.

Unreal.

[pinerow]

14. Idiocy is idiocy...and about blanket condemnation...

i see no one defending the prehistoric nature of Iran's religious court...they are very much in tune with our own ayatollas...Falwell, Robertson et.al...

[Bono71]

15. The only differences are...

1) Fawell does not represent the government, the Ayatollahs ARE the government

2) No, some on this board do not condemen Iran, go back and read the posts, they deny bad things happen.

3) There is definitely an anti-christian vibe on this board that leads to some Christian-bashing--just check the thread on the vandalism of some Christian Christmas displays.

[pinerow]

18. You have probably missed the last election in the U.S...the ayatollahs

"won" the election...

[Bono71]

19. Well, I guess that means the stoning of women will begin, then?...

And no, for the record, I do not think our capital punishment system is equivalent to Iran's.

[pinerow]

22. Who asked if the capital punishment system is equivalent

Iran's...I just get a bit tired of people who are willing to turn to the Bible, Koran, Talmud or any other mythical tomes in order to butress their arguments...I find them entirely too willing to kill in the name of their lord(s)...

[Bono71]

28. That we agree on.

[pinerow]

23. As for the stoning of women...the rhetorical stoning of women

has already begun in the U.S....who do you think will be named to the Federal courts under this theocracy; womens rights advocates...think again...

[Bono71]

25. We're getting off track...

1) Agree Bush sucks
2) I think we agree, Iran sucks worse
3) Go check out the thread on Malaysia and some of the almost gleeful posts on the Christians' plight. I think it illustrates my point that some on this board are almost as bad as the Christian fundamentalists in their intolerance.

[pinerow]

29. Getting back on track...the story is about TAPPS...not Malasia or

Iran...stay on message. :toast:

[Bono71]

30. Ok...

but I think you will agree that some on this board bash Christians. If you don't agree that is your right.

[DoNotRefill]

41. That's because...

feeding them to lions is no longer PC.

:evilgrin:

[VegasWolf]

62. LOL.!!Too damn funny! n/t

[jayfish]

20. 80% Of The People In The US Claim To Be...

Christians and your going to come here and whine about an "anti-Christian vibe". Are you looking for 100% or something. Go cry me a river someplace where you feel a nice Christian vibe. Such a place should be easy to find.

http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#gallup

Jay

[Bono71]

26. Just pointing out some intolerance, my man. Intolerance is

intolerance whether perpetrated by the Christians discussed in this post, Iranian Mullahs, or overzealous DUers.

[Occulus]

51. Should I tolerate Christians who want me dead because I'm gay?

Should I turn the other cheek on that one?

Understood, it's not all Christians. But what kind of views am I supposed to have about a religion I do not practice (note I didn't say, "do not believe in") when some adherents of that religion simply want me dead, some others think I'll be punished for eternity (and, by extension, cannot thereafter separate me from my "sin"; everything I say or do has the tinge of the ultimate sinner and all my actions are suspect to them- which is why I can't be any kind of teacher or work with kids without fear of losing my job if they find me out, because of that stigma some of these same Christians spread around about gay people being "after the children"), still others don't want me even to have a peaceful funeral....

I understand it's not all Christians. But what, I ask you, am I supposed to think or feel for that apparently growing segment of Christian believers who would do any or all of the things I listed above? You ask us to tolerate and educate these people, but how am I supposed to do that if, when I try, I get a gun pulled on me, or someone literally throws a punch, or won't even allow me to come within ten feet of them once they find out about me because they're afraid for their children's safety?

How do I 'educate' people who believe, for example, that I and people like me are part of the cause of the 9/11 attacks? How do I respond to people who, not knowing I'm gay, say in a crowd that they wish we could just ship all them fags off to an island or something, and others in the group laughingly, or quietly, agree?

It seems, from my point of view, that 'tolerance' you're referring to seems to involve a whole lot of letting them walk all over me as a person- and that just for starters.

How can I be expected to 'reach out' to people who don't see me as a person "like them", when I am in fact not a person "like them" and therefore am expendable to them? Their actions make me want to strike them twice as hard as they would strike me.

Can someone Christian please explain this to me? I'm trying to find a reason to "reach out", but for me and, I suspect, people like me, that's a damn hard and potentially dangerous thing to do these days.....

[Bono71]

52. No you should not tolerate such nonsense. n/t

[DoNotRefill]

55. Yes, you should.

Right up to the point that they try and act on it and cause you harm, in which case you should shoot and kill them in accordance with your State's self-defense laws. If they do something tortious to harm you that doesn't justify self-defense, file suit against them.

Tolerance is a two-way street. If you expect them to "turn the other cheek" to you, then you must do the same back.

[donco6]

61. And by then it's way too late.

After they've managed to roust the rabble with their torches and pitchforks and you're confronted with an entire country who believes as they do. No way. I can "tolerate" people who aren't doing anyone any harm, like gays, but these Christians are to be opposed at every turn.

[Igel]

107. So we repeal the 1st amendment?

Or just for certain groups?

(And what makes you think you wouldn't be in one of them?)

It's one thing to say that some group will burn in hellfire; if you believe Revelation, somebody will (if you don't, mentally delete the last two clauses). If you don't protect offensive speech, what's the point?

It's another thing to advocate members of your group committing violence. For that, we have laws.

And, as with most things (apart from conspiracy), simple intent with no action isn't punishable. We don't have hate-thought laws ... yet.

[pinerow]

56. Great Post!!!

NT

[InvisibleBallots]

88. since the majority are Christians, anti-Christian bigotry is acceptable

apparently :eyes:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

119. Where the INTERCOURSE is the intolerance in the ORIGINAL POST? (nt)

[InvisibleBallots]

49. sad isn't it

There is a serious hatred for people's own culture here. Most of the most strident anti-Christians are in fact from Christian families.

[VegasWolf]

63. No ,not sad at all, liberating in fact not to believe in hell and

other stupid things. And not anti-Christian, but anti-religious or
anti-invisible-beings-in-the-sky, that sort of thing. And yes
my parents tried to raise me catholic, but it didn't take.

[Bono71]

64. Your opinions are fine, but it is immature and ignorant to

belittle someone's religion, and every democrat currently in power positions would agree with me.

[RetroLounge]

69. I call Bullshit

Christianity is a religion, NOT a nationality, in spite of what the MSM X-tians want you to believe.

RL

[Ms. Clio]

65. Please post a link to the story that reports that this actually occurred

Thus far, the only info. AI has provided is that the "girl" has been sentenced.

[Bono71]

68. Exactly my point. n/t

[Ms. Clio]

70. Then your point is senseless

I don't deny that (the woman, who had sex with a minor) has been sentenced, I asked for confirmation that the execution occurred.

Can't do that? Then just say so.

[Bono71]

71. Are you denying the government doesn't stone people? Here

is a hint, it did as recently as 2002.

Somehow, if this were a Christian government, I doubt you would want "proof." You would be all over it and praising Amnesty International for having the courage to report it.

You should rethink who has sense.

[Ms. Clio]

73. Nobody is denying that

Although one case doesn't make a case for a blanket statement that the "government stones people." Hyperbole does not make for a convincing argument.

It may be that the U.S. has actually executed more women than Iran in the last decade or so. Certainly there are dozens of them on death row around the country, several in my own state.

I have already said I believe the reporting of the sentence is accurate--I actually first read about this case some time ago, from another source than AI.

Again, you are the one who claimed that someone had just been stoned to death. You are the one who can't provide proof that this occurred. Now you try to backtrack and claim that asking for evidence is an attack on AI.

[Bono71]

75. Give me one instance where in the last 10 years a state

in this country has executed (or sentenced) a woman for having consenting sex?

Oh, I forgot, Mary K Laterneau got the lethal injection.

[Ms. Clio]

78. The issue is not the crime that prompted the death sentence

I started off asking for a link to evidence that the execution actually occurred.

You could not provide that. Why not just say so?

[Bono71]

79. There is no link...I should have typed "sentenced"...

the point is the reaction of this board to the Christian religion. People are ready to blanket Christians into this category of small minded bigots (when they themselves are guilty of the exact same thing).

No, I am not calling you a bigot.

[w4rma]

103. stoning, electric chair, rifle squad, lethal injection, hanging

What is the difference? The victim will be killed by the state, in the end, in every single one of these cases.

You need to realize that the Falwell/Robertson/Bush fundies have created a serious backlash against fundamentalist Christians and the the U.S. Republican Party (and to an only slightly lesser extent Christians and the U.S.).

I'm a Christian. I'm a Baptist Christian, in fact. And I do not believe that Falwell and Roberton act like Christians. I think they ignore Jesus's teachings in the gospels and even persecute folks who follow Jesus's teachings, especially the parts about the meek, the poor, peacemakers and turning the other cheek.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

118. Stick to the subject

This thread is about a school in the US of A and something that happened to it. Do you AGREE with the association's reaction, or not?

[wildeyed]

17. It is sad, but not surprising.

I was agog when I read the statistic that 44% of Americans support curtailing the civil liberties of Muslims. :scared: That sentiment is so..... un-American.

[Jazzgirl]

32. Wildeyed, I work with some people who believe

Muslim's should be profiled and should be viewed suspiciously. After all, "those people" are the ones that want to "foster terr-izm against us." They also believe our rights should be curtailed as well. Yes...scary.... :scared:

[wildeyed]

38. They believe rights should be curtailed

as long as they are the righteous and feel they are the majority. They would change their tune quickly if they were a member of a minority.

Are they advocating interment camps, yet?

[Trajan]

33. Islam IS intolerant of non muslim peoples ....

Christianity IS intolerant of non christian peoples ...

Judaism, to its 'credit', simply wants other people to go away and leave it alone ... lest they get angry ....

The Abrahamic faiths have intolerance built into the respective creeds ... one 'must be' muslim OR christian OR Jew .... or one is surely evil and must be corrected to please god ....

These are three sides to the same intolerant coin ...

[Bono71]

36. I don't think all Muslims, Jews or Christians feel that way.

[Trajan]

82. They dont have to ...

Their respective doctrines, codified in theological canon, express contempt for non-doctrinaire parties ...

For christians: without the acceptance of Jesus as the son of god, and of 'salvation' through confession to jesus ... then you are condemned to hell ... no ands ifs or buts .... You are a 'sinner' ... a minion of satan .... Jews and Muslims do not accept Jesus Christ as the son of god, and are therefore condemned to hell ... YOU dont have to say that: the canon says it; the tradition says it ...

For Muslims: The Quran explicitly condemns the 'House of Unbelief', and rejects as sinful those who do not adhere to the five pillars of Islam .... Christians do NOT recognise Mohammed as the apostle of god, as do not jews .. both are therefore condemned to hell .. and possibly subject to action by muslims as dictated by the quran, who expect muslims to rid the world of unbelief ... YOU dont have to say that: the quran says it; the tradition says it ...

For Jews: The Pentatauch depicts a history that includes personal conversations with YHWH by the patriarchs ... In those conversations, 'covenants' were concluded which promised specific divine actions based on compliance with specific national behaviors ... Part of the covenants included language specifying the Nation of Israel as being god's own 'chosen' ... the inference being that those NOT of the Nation of Israel, and not beholden to the law, are NOT 'chosen' ... It is tradition of judaism to look to the world as 'gentile', and to generally separate, culturally, from that other world ... Heaven is a place for the chosen, not of the gentile ... and hence: only jews shall possess heaven and commune with YHWH, the purported father of Jesus ... YOU dont have to say that: the canon says it; the tradition says it ...

Whether a jew, christian or muslim disagrees with these points of doctrine or tradition is irrelevent .. there will ALWAYS be those who point to the respective canons, and declare the sancity and authority of their creed-driven exclusionary policies, of which heresy, blasphemy and apostasy are the tools of indoctrination and judical condemnation ...

The Jews less so than Islam or Christianity, since they do not require inclusion, and greatly prefer exclusion instead ...

[Bono71]

83. Actually, part of what you write is incorrect with respect to

Christians...

"For christians: without the acceptance of Jesus as the son of god, and of 'salvation' through confession to jesus ... then you are condemned to hell ... no ands ifs or buts .... You are a 'sinner' ... a minion of satan .... Jews and Muslims do not accept Jesus Christ as the son of god, and are therefore condemned to hell ... YOU dont have to say that: the canon says it; the tradition says it ..."

Not for all Christians, including many protestant faiths.

[Trajan]

112. You are claiming that exceptions are the rule ....

That is simply not logical ... I defined the canon as it is: whether or not a specific congregation agrees with a specific theological tenet doesnt alter the canon itself ...

Sure: MOST religionists are reasonable and sane people who simply wish to have something greater than earthly humanity to aspire to .... yet the canon exists apart from sanity and reason ....

I have no objection to belief ... I have GREAT objection to forced belief .... BOTH Islam and Christianity contain tenets that justify forced conversion .... at least as interpreted by the more vigorous factions ....

Here is one example ... http://www.google.com/search?q=rindfleisch&hl=en&lr=lang_en&sa=X&oi=lrtip9

RINDFLEISCH:

By : Gotthard Deutsch S. Mannheimer

German nobleman of Röttingen, Franconia; persecutor of the Jews in the thirteenth century. During the civil war waged between Adolph of Nassau and Albrecht of Austria, claimants for the imperial crown of Germany, bloody persecutions of the Jews broke out. A report was spread that the Jewish inhabitants of the little town of Röttingen had desecrated a host. Rindfleisch, a nobleman of that place, pretending to have received a mission from heaven to avenge this desecration and to exterminate "the accursed race of the Jews," gathered a mob around him and burned the Jews of Röttingen at the stake (April 20, 1298). Under his leadership the mob went from town to town, killing all the Jews that fell into their power, save those who accepted Christianity. The great community of Würzburg was entirely annihilated (July 24).

The Jews of Nuremberg sought refuge in the fortress. Being attacked, they defended themselves, but, although assisted by humane Christian citizens, they were overpowered and butchered (Aug. 1). Among the victims was Mordecai ben Hillel, a pupil of Jehiel ben Asher, with his wife and children. In Bavaria the congregations of Ratisbon and Augsburg—and they alone—escaped the slaughter, owing to the protection granted them by the magistrates.

The persecutions spread from Franconia and Bavaria to Austria, and within six months about 120 congregations, numbering 100,000 Jews, were swept away. The end of the civil war, following the death of Adolph of Nassau, terminated these persecutions and delivered the Jews from further fear.

Bibliography: Grätz, Gesch. vii. 252 et seq., Leipsic, 1873;
Jost, Gesch. vii. 255, Berlin, 1827.D. S. Man.


There are two salient points to make here:

1) " ... although assisted by humane Christian citizens ...."

Obviously .... we would hope that most people are good people and would NEVER act thusly .... yet it is apparent that the BULK of the population supported Rindfleisch ... again; the 'humane' types were exceptions to the rule ....

2) Note that IF a jew were to convert to christianity, they were spared .... this fact speaks for itself ...

Think of it: 100,000 in six months ....

[w4rma]

105. Trajan, don't be a hypocrite.

You are acting intolerant of folks with a different life philosophy than you. Are you athiest? Are you a "born-again" athiest? A militant athiest? Are you intolerant of everyone who isn't an athiest like you?

I think you need to rethink your rhetoric, Trajan. It's counterproductive and hypocritical.

[Trajan]

111. I am intolerant ....

Of philosophies that DESTROY societies and provide the foundation for slaughter ....

You speak of a 'life' philosophy: yet the abrahamic faiths are concerned NOT with life, but with a supposed afterlife .... It is their eschatological underpinnings that makes these faiths become 'intolerant' of 'sin' ...

Other than the jews; both Islam and Christianity have made NON belief a sinful behaviour ... one that not only constitutes 'evil', but can also lead, as history bears out, to actions by ecclesiasticals against 'living' 'heretics' to punish their disbelief with various tortures, up to and including painful execution by various, gratuitously brutal methods ....

I would like to ask you what part of 'atheism' demands adherence to atheism ? .... describe a tenet of atheism that insists that NON atheists should be separated from society and ostracised ....

Describe when and where atheists, in the cause of atheism (NOT communism), had tortured and killed NON atheists to punish NON-NON-belief ..... To use the fallacious association of Stalin, Mao or Pol Pot as exemplars of 'atheism' wont be permitted .... I know better ....

Am I atheist ? ... of course .... Am I ANTI theist ? ... certainly ...

I am MILITANTLY atheist ? .... cmon: I am a secular humanist and pacifist ... I wish ALL men to live peacefully together, and to solve the world's pressing issues of hunger, disease and want for those who live TODAY ..... I think it a far better alternative than punishing men for non-belief in pretend deities, and considering the state of men's 'souls' in the afterlife as more important than alleviating humankind's present day sufferings ....

One can be 'intolerant' of those who marginalize others because of non-belief, and who have used that marginalization as a pretext for slaughter .... I am intolerant of such behavior based on theology; I am certainly 'guilty' of being intolerant of theological hatred and massacre ....

Counterproductive ? ... perhaps YOU think that way for petty and selfish reasons .... I am not here to justify YOUR feelings ....

Explain how I am hypocritical : for pointing out the negative aspects of the abrahamic faiths ? .... for describing them as sociopathic and detrimental to peace ? ... History bears that fact out .....

Your post reveals more about you than it does of me ....

[w4rma]

117. You definitely are.

Btw, here is an example of a true Christian:
{President} Carter backs civil unions for gay couples
http://www.sovo.com/2004/12-24/news/localnews/carter.cfm
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1098863

[Cheswick2.0]

122. nope , sorry not true

For christians: without the acceptance of Jesus as the son of god, and of 'salvation' through confession to jesus ... then you are condemned to hell ... no ands ifs or buts .... You are a 'sinner' ... a minion of satan .... Jews and Muslims do not accept Jesus Christ as the son of god, and are therefore condemned to hell ... YOU dont have to say that: the canon says it; the tradition says it ...

Some right wingers might believe this but they would be the minority.

[Copperred]

95. Yep.

Here here to that..........

[DoNotRefill]

37. It's called "Freedom of Association"...

and the Muslim school is out of luck. TAPPS is within their legal right.

[Tempest]

40. TAPPS legal right is not the issue here

The hostility of the letter is the issue.

[DoNotRefill]

42. Did the letter contain threats?

If not, then please cite the code that states that you can't send somebody a letter with a hostile tone.

We've all seen posts on DU that have a hostile tone, right? Does that make the post actionable? Not very likely...

[Tempest]

43. Strawman

You've set up a strawman and it was knocked down.

Get over it.

[DoNotRefill]

47. And where exactly is "hostility" prohibited???

eom

[maxrandb]

46. Exactly n/t

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

120. And how do you feel about that fact? (nt)

[KingChicken]

54. Christians have a good ride in the U.S., don't complain....

I was raised Christian, but I choose not to follow it, I have a very bad taste in my mouth from everything I witnessed growing up. One thing I know of most Christians that I’m around and have been around all my life is this notion of "persecution", too many Christians constantly try to make themselves the victim because so much Christian persecution is explained in the bible.

Many Christians need to realize how much they try to put themselves in front of the train, they want to make themselves the object of repression, always claiming to be the victim. This country is extremely Christian and tolerant just about everything having to do with Christianity. Please realize how much non-Christians are persecuted in this country, I know that I've had my fair share of people try to convert me and tell me how evil I am for not being Christian. I should sit here and get really offended by how Christians treat me, even when I try my very best to accommodate Christians who are offended every 5 seconds about everything.

Christians have little reason to bitch, you are submerged in a Christian society. If some people are a little insensitive please let it slide, stop being so offended all the time, life is too short.

[riverwalker]

85. I've never met a Christian

not really. To see so many declare themselves as "Christian" is kind of astounding. I've read the New Testament backwards and forwards, made pilgrimages to where he walked and died to better understand, yet, I would never declare myself to be a "Christian". That means to emulate Christ, to sell all you own, as he instructed, and leave your families, and spend your life tending those in need. So all these "Christians" on DU have done this?
Hey, I am really impressed.:eyes:

[JHB]

86. Do some of their "christian" schools teach that the Pope...

...is the anti-christ?

[JHB]

87. Suggested solutions:

1) TAPPS member schools call upon Mr. Burleson to issue an immediate and profuse apology to the private Muslin school and to all TAPPS member schools;

2) If he fails to do so, the Member schools should have him summarily dismissed;

3) If TAPPS organization does not allow this to happen, the member schools should withdraw their memberships immediately.

This is the honorable course of action. I suspect there's fat chance of it actually happening, though.

[manhattanite]

93. Evangelical Christians HATE Muslims.

That is why they support the invasion of Iraq, Israel's illegal and inhumane occupation of Palestine, and the killing of Middle Eastern people in general.

[w4rma]

104. Fundamentalist, not Evangelical.

Fundamentalism is a method of interpreting a religious work. It is supposed to be a literal interpretation.

Evangelicalism only means to spread ones beliefs far and wide. It has nothing to do with interpretation, only with getting the word out.

[peacetalksforall]

100. At the heart of our problems

. we haven't kept church and state separate - government works better when they are separate. We have civil laws that we follow and each person does his own religious thing kept in place by the civil laws.

. we have willfully chosen enemies in other countries (some perpetrated by corporations - (IT & T in Chile, etc., Halliburton, Bechtel, KBR now, and all the earth resource predators in centuries past.)

. we have willfully chosen enemies in our own country - all perpetrated by corporations, organized religion, banks, military... who also won over OUR employees - government representatives, leaders, intelligence agencies, health agencies, and our finacial core.

This man abandoned our history of trying to welcome and live as brothers. Just as our country pointed a gun at Afghanistan and shot Iraq, now we are pointing the some guns away from Blacks, Native Americans, and various immigrant groups to Moslem groups.

Question? Are the students from the Moslem schools predominantly immigrants or native born converts?

[Divine Discontent]

106. merry Christmas everyone!

may everyone have a safe and blessed Merry Christmas in Christ's holy name.

if one chooses to love Christ with all his or her heart and attempt to follow all that Christ teaches and love others like themselves, and see he did come here for us as Savior, there is no right wing NUTCAKE that can tell Christ, "not that one Christ, she's a lesbian, or that one, he's looked at porn, and forget that one, she had sex with her daddy consentually as a teen!" we all have things in life that are shocking, odd, questionable, painful, and frankly, only God Almighty can judge us, not the nutcake majority of baptists & right wing churches and religions like the muslims, mormons, etc.

flame away... ha.

[BUSHOUT]

108. Here's the cowardly little f@#ks email. Let him know how you feel.

I know...it's how freerepulsives usually operate, but no more Mr. Nice Guy is what I say.

[e-mail]

And if you're made of money, go here for the phone number also:

http://www.tapps.net/TAPPSOfficeAddress&Info.html

This idiot needs to realize what sort of a fool he looks like. No doubt he thinks he's "patriotic", but he's the worst kind of scum America has to offer.

[BUSHOUT]

109. My email to "Edd".

Dear Edd.

It is sad that you would imply that Islam, it's teachings, and those who practice it are defined by some text you've pulled from the Koran.

How did a person like yourself attain a position of responsibility to such a prestigious group of institutions? Expecially considering that so many of them are religious based.

I want to pity you, but I pity America instead because narrow beliefs like yours which are based on stereotypes and fear are becomming more common in America.

I hope you will take a lesson from this. You should take this as an opportunity to grow as God would want you to. Learn what you can about Islam and the people who practice it.

regards and Merry Christmas.

[Igel]

110. To strike a conciliatory tone:

A few points.

1. It's not hard to selectively quote to make a letter sound hostile. Show me the letter, and let me judge the tone for myself. It's not that I don't trust his version ... no, it's that I don't trust his version.

2. The letter may not show bull-headed ignorance, just ignorance. There's a difference, and as I've said before, I don't like imputing bad-faith and ill-will unless the facts call for it.

3. And the last point may just be pragmatism: If I was speaking for an organization and I realized many of my members might be biased, I'd want to (a) alert an applicant to this fact, and (b) question is motives.

In any event, it's a free country (claims of fascism notwithstanding, in a fascist state most of us would be in jail already), and TAPPS still has freedom of association. Which implies freedom not to associate.

[MADem]

115. If Karl Rove reads this thread

....he will be OVERJOYED!!!

His plan is WORKING!!!


Here's how I see it. A bunch of racist assholes from a Texas-based private school association send a nasty, hateful letter to an Islamic school. The story gets posted here, and the issue quickly morphs from a circumstance where a group of ASSHOLES insult people of another faith to a CHRISTIANS VS MUSLIMS knock down, drag out fight (ten rounds, ringside seats still available, call Ticketron today!!!).

Anyone who writes a shitty letter like that is obviously not a Christian, at least not in the way I understand the followers of Jesus of Nazareth. They may CALL themselves by that title, but isn't "living the faith" integral to the entire concept?

If Christians feel that they have to somehow support an ASSHOLE just because he or she SAYS they are CHRISTIAN, then Karl Rove has WON.

Hateful communications like the one quoted above have no place in the faith, and people who write that shit aren't real Christians. They don't deserve any defense from real ones.

Just my two cents....wish everyone would stop eating their own on this issue, it's just what the right wants.