Dutch see threat from "born-again" Muslims in West

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L2354698.htm

AMSTERDAM, Dec 23 (Reuters) - The Dutch secret service said on Thursday combating terrorism also meant tackling the problem of thousands of disaffected "born again" Muslims in the West who are open to the appeal of a radical, puritan version of Islam.

The AIVD intelligence service said fighting extremist Islam demanded much more subtlety and concentrating only on Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network was a mistake as many militants operated outside any formal group structures.

The AIVD, which has previously said it is monitoring about 150 suspected Islamist militants in The Netherlands, said "several thousand" Muslims, mostly youngsters, were vulnerable to the appeal of radical Islam. The Netherlands is home to about 1 million Muslims, or about 6 percent of the population.

"Classical ways of fighting terrorism without consideration for processes of radicalisation and prevention will have little effect in the long-term," the AIVD said in a 60-page report on radical Islam presented to the Dutch parliament.

more

[leftofcool]

1. But "born again" Christians

are running rampant on the planet.

Left of Cool

[OnlyInAmerica]

2. The difference being

When the born again Christians don't like a movie they don't hunt down the producer/director in broad daylight, shoot him several times, nearly cut his head off, and stab a note to his chest quoting verses of scripture.

[Tempest]

3. Double standard

You didn't mention the born again Christians who hunt down abortion doctors and kill them.

[OnlyInAmerica]

5. Not a double standard

Both are equally wrong. By the way, when was the last time an abortion doctor was killed? I can't recall an incident in the past few years. However, the topic of the thread is the Dutch seeing a threat from born again Muslims. Why the hurry to say, "Yes, but born again Christians have done such and such!"?

[Tempest]

7. Yes, double standard

Read your post again and maybe you'll see it.

If not, here's some help...

You said born again Christians weren't doing what ONE man did, yet you failed to consider what SEVERAL Christians have done which were similar.

[OnlyInAmerica]

9. Here's some help for you

Murder is wrong, period. But I think it's a little disingenuous to say that someone who believes in their heart (misguided as it is) that an abortion doctor is committing murder and decides to stop what they see as murder is worse than someone who kills simply because a person portrayed their religion in a negative light. For the record, neither one is excusable, but the motivations behind the murders should be taken into account. One kills to stop what he perceives to be an impending death, the other kills because a film maker criticized his religion.

[0007]

22. Generl Jerry Boykin is absolutely a nut case!

Boykin is a deputy undersecretary of Defense for intelligence, with major responsibilities in the War on Terror.

Boykin is doing what you love?

[OnlyInAmerica]

33. He's doing what I love?

Not sure what you're talking about

[Igel]

70. You're right. Anybody working for the government has to

toe the party line.

Boykin shouldn't have been wearing a uniform. And his speech wasn't on national radio or TV, nor was he there on the government's dime. (The cries against him are basically what you'd get in a fundamentalist Xian state if somebody said "Allah is greatest"--the same kind of "my god is better than you're god. But we know *nobody* would ever stoop to saying something so, um, biased.)

When a person can no longer say he thinks his religion, beliefs, ideology, etc., are superior to anybody elses, we're in trouble.

[Bo]

110. I have many Dutch friends

that are non-muslim and they are extremely worried about the muslims.
Kinda thinking about it so am I.

[barbaraann]

4. And they never hunt and kill staff at abortion clinics, either, do they?

n/t

[Roaming]

19. My goodness; when did that happen?

[OnlyInAmerica]

24. About a month ago

Google "Theo Van Gogh"

[Roaming]

25. Sorry--misunderstood!

[Javaman]

29. no they don't, they just commit character assassination...

Ruin the person publically, take away a persons livelihood, make it so they can't find another job, force them to move to another part of the country, or protest in front of their house so the person can't live peacefully.
To me, compared to this, a person being killed is getting off easy.

Some may say, going to hell is worse than living in hell. I beg to differ.

but then again, I'm a none believer in hell

[OnlyInAmerica]

32. When did this happen?

I must've missed the news reports. Did the producers of "The Last Temptation of Christ" lose their livelihoods or lives? What about "Dogma"? And I'd venture to say that the majority of people would prefer that you protested in front of their house in lieu of slitting their throats, but I could be wrong.

Edited for spelling

[Javaman]

67. Last Temptation was hailed by the right as a teaching tool...

Dogma, was just bad. Whether you were religious or not.

As far as living the next x amount of years being defamed by the ultra religious right or having them off you? No one chooses to be killed and if given the option, I don't think someone would want to be killed, my point was, if you are killed by them, then that save you from years of hell via character assassination or other means of destroying your livelihood.

[TO Kid]

78. Reaction to Last Temptation was mixed

Some fundies condemned it, others saw it as a teaching tool as you mentioned. I just thought it was dull- an overlong retelling of the Gospels with a brief detour near the end. BTW I read an interesting piece written by an Imam at the time of the controversy- he didn't like it because Islam forbids the use of actors to portray their prophets.

[The Stranger]

40. They hunt down doctors and blow up clinics where people are

trying to receive treatment. And, contrary to what short history is popular, Christians did hunt down and murder hundreds of thousands of Jews and Muslims in their history.

[Cicero]

111. When has that happened any time recently?

To reiterate what another poster has mentioned, there is a difference (at least when it comes to motivation) between killing someone whom you think is <hysterical ranting>murdering innocent babies</hysterical ranting>, and killing someone because he merely criticized your religion. It's still murder, in both cases.

And as for killing infidels, yeah, Christianity has some pretty bad history there. So has just about every other religion. Christianity is in no ways unique in that regard.

Later,

[TO Kid]

6. I'll worry about "born again" christians

Just as soon as I see their spiritual leaders go on national TV calling on their followers to blow up their children for the cause.

[Tempest]

8. Falwell and Robertson

Both have called for the deaths of the Clintons and gays.

Start worrying.

[OnlyInAmerica]

10. How many followers have complied?

Falwell and Robertson are as bad as the Taliban leaders, but fortunately the people who ascribe to their beliefs realize that murdering the Clintons or gays or anyone else is not the way to go.

[Tempest]

11. Ask Matthew Shepard

I'm sure he'll tell you how many.

[OnlyInAmerica]

13. That's strange

I don't recall his murderers saying they killed him because he offended their religious sensibilities

[The Stranger]

41. You seem to lose recollection when it doesn't suit your purpose.

You haven't heard or seen born again "Christians" persecuting gays and lesbians?

[OnlyInAmerica]

50. Of course I have

But the poster was referencing the Matthew Shepherd murder. The motive behind that murder was not based on religious beliefs.

[The Stranger]

60. Do you have anything to support your statement?

[OnlyInAmerica]

63. Yes i do

First the killers said it was because he came on to them. That's homophobia, not a religious crusade. Then, a few weeks ago on 20/20 they said it was because of a robbery gone bad to support their meth addiction. Look it up if you'd like.

[brentspeak]

45. And I don't recall Shepard's killers claiming allegiance to the 700 Club

The topic at hand are fundamentalist Muslims who the Dutch feel are spreading violence in their country.

[SariesNightly]

12. This scares me..

.. to know that all it takes is a high profile attack by the lunatic fringe segment of Muslims, to trigger a countrywide backlash against an entire religious group.

Every segment of society has it's trash, the muggers, rapists and cold blooded psychos regardless of race or religion, but it's impossible to think in that neutral way anymore when you read about "Muslims" and "extremists" in newspapers every day.

All it takes is a single straw to break the camel's back.

However further friction is impossible to avoid, since demographic projections show Europe will become an Islamic continent sometime in the next 40 years.

What solutions are there? Segregation?

[OnlyInAmerica]

14. Segregation is the problem

The Dutch are calling for the immigrant community to assimilate or go home. The problems with Islamic fundamentalism in their country arose in part because the Muslim community has kept itself segregated from the rest of the population

[Tempest]

17. Should all ethnic groups assimilate or go home?

The Koreans, Laotians and other ethic groups in America and other countries haven't assimilated.

Yet only Muslims are targeted because of the actions of a few.

Sounds like discrimination to me.

[OnlyInAmerica]

20. Don't ask me

Ask the Dutch. It's their country

[leftofcool]

27. I was just in their country.........

and from what I can gather from talking to a few about all of this is that most Dutch people don't have a problem with Muslims or Christians. This is an isolated group of people, a very small group that appears to have the Dutch Govt worried.

Left of Cool

[OnlyInAmerica]

30. I need to visit their country

I'd like to try some "coffee" from their coffee shops ;)

[leftofcool]

35. hehehehehehehehe..............................

Maybe I can attest to the quality of their coffee.

Left of Cool

[TO Kid]

82. It isn't so much about failure to assimilate

It's about deliberate isolation. I know plenty of people from every ethnic group who are able to engage with the community without actually assimilating. Think of the difference between a neighbourhood and a ghetto.

[Andromeda]

105. No, not all Muslims are targeted.

There are radical Muslims just as there are radical Christians.

The extremists don't represent the majority of Muslims or Christians.

The radicals are the only ones who get publicity for the things they do because they are so outrageous. The more shocking the action, the more media attention they will receive.

People sometimes don't make a distinction between the extreme elements and the mainstream and it's those individuals who discriminate out of ignorance.

[0007]

26. Eric Rudolph kills for the "Army of God"

[Igel]

71. So, give me an address for them, who are its preachers,

and where do they worship?

[Flagg]

57. ince demographic projections show Europe will become an Islamic continent

sometime in the next 40 years."


LOL

Let me guess: Coulter, Limbaugh, freerepublic, O'Reilly, Newsmax, fuckfrance.com ?

How will 5 millions muslim become a majority in a 62 million people country in the next 40 years ?
And don't give me your racist "muslim bithrate is higher" argument because serious studies have shown that it is not the case.

[Ms. Clio]

97. And California is becoming "Mexifornia"

Oh, the horror, the horror--white people might not always rule the world!

[KDLarsen]

113. Don't forget Turkey

.. once they enter the EU (which I hope they do some time in the future), they'll more or less even the "score". Which I think is going to be a real eye opener for those in favor of a closer bond between church & state.

[TO Kid]

80. That backlash has been a long time coming

There have been a lot of reports in Europe over the past couple of years about Muslim immigrants being both intolerant and violent while authorities failed to act. Most of the incidents were Muslims acting like punks then trying to use their religion as an excuse, and judges buying it. The worst case I recall (in Norway or Sweden IIRC) was a rape where the perp claimed that the victim was a whore because she wasn't wearing the hijab- some politician made a comment to effect that potential rape victims should try not to offend the sensibilities of people of other religions. This sort of reasoning virtually guarantees an explosion of public rage at some point- if people think that the state is refusing to protect them from thugs then they'll take matters into their own hands.

[Ms. Clio]

96. What a revolting post

Once again, you provide no link for this utterly inflammatory story. Therefore, anyone reading it should regard it with skepticism--you have a history of posting highly inaccurate versions of actual events.

And you are strongly hinting that lynch mobs and pogroms will be necessary, too--using the exact same reasoning as a white southerner at the turn of the 20th century.

Disgusting.

[KDLarsen]

115. To be fair..

.. I too have heard of this case (or something along those lines). There ARE some pretty radical muslims out there, that are pretty shocked when they come to the relatively free culture.

I mean, when Khamal from the mountains of Kazakhstan comes to Denmark to marry some girl who have lived in a free & open community her whole life, and who are used to be able to go out on Saturday night, Khamal is going to be desperate.

[TO Kid]

81. Segregation isn't the solution, it's the problem

When members of an ethnic or religious minority are isolated from the community the results are usually catastrophic. One of the problems cited in the Van Gogh case is that in the Netherlands (and many other countries) immigrants are not encouraged to engage with the community or even learn the language. This makes them easy prey for both economic exploitation and political indoctrination.

[Tempest]

15. Serial gay killer in Chicago

The killings of Winters and Clewar are among six gay killings in the city. Five of the murders occurred on the North Side in the past year, leaving residents of the mostly gay neighborhood fearing a serial killer was on the loose.

http://www.365gay.com/newscon04/12/122304chicago.htm

[OnlyInAmerica]

16. I'm confused

Where in that report does it say that the police suspect the killer is a Christian on a rampage? Maybe it's a Muslim on a rampage, or a Buddhist, Hindu, atheist....

[Tempest]

18. Provide proof

Of one other religious group who has murdered gays.

Provide proof of any atheist who has murdered gays.

The only ones talking about murdering gays are the so-called Christians.

[OnlyInAmerica]

21. Um, Muslims?

If you think gays wouldn't be killed in any country ruled by Sharia law you are mistaken. In addition, there is a difference between saying someone killed a person because of their religious beliefs versus saying the murderer happened to be Christian (Actually, a true Christian doesn't commit murder. Decent human beings don't commit murder). To assume that every gay person who is killed is killed by a Christian is ridiculous.

[Tempest]

36. I asked for proof, not your say-so

Your lack of evidence is quite telling.


>>a true Christian doesn't commit murder<<

Then true Christians don't exist. According to the Bible, you don't have to actually commit the act to be guilty of the crime.


>>To assume that every gay person who is killed is killed by a Christian is ridiculous.<<

Yet another strawman.

I never made any such statement.

[OnlyInAmerica]

38. I must've been mistaken

When you said:

"Of one other religious group who has murdered gays.

Provide proof of any atheist who has murdered gays.

The only ones talking about murdering gays are the so-called Christians."

I read that to mean that the only ones talking about murdering gays are the so-called Christians. Or that no other religious peoples other than Christians have murdered gays. It's easy to see how I was confused.

[Big Kahuna]

73. Actually..

many Islamic countries have a culture of closet-homosexuality and pedophilia similar to that found in the Catholic priesthood.

In Afghanistan, it is common and accepted for older, powerful men to collect "boy-toys". A local Guardsman I know, who just returned from Iraq told me of a similar culture in Iraq, where the common wisdom is that "Women are for making children, men and boys are for pleasure".

They would be horrified, like some christians, by the thought of gay marriage. It's ok, however to bugger the alterboys or local street urchins.

Hypocricy is everywhere I suppose.

[Ms. Clio]

95. These are practices that occurred among some New World peoples, too

Richard Trexler wrote a fascinating book called Sex and Conquest: Gendered Violence, Political Order, and the European Conquest of the Americas.

It wasn't about sex, it was about dominance. The stronger, usually older male always penetrated the weaker, younger male. The Spanish and other Mediterranean cultures had similar practices, but when they encountered them among the Aztecs and Incas they found it very convenient to decide that the native peoples were sissified perverts who deserved to be conquered.

[leftofcool]

23. And every anti-gay/hate group on the net....

is run/owned/operated by either a Christian, a Christian group, or someone/group claiming to be Christian. At least the ones I have seen. Every anti-abortion group on the net is run by a so called Christian group. As well, for the last ten years or so, there has been talk by those on the Christian Right, about putting gays in concentration camps. I have seen on TV christian groups who oppose abortion advocating the death penalty for any woman who has an abortion. I say there is definitely a 'born again christian" problem in many countries and the movement is just a violent as any born again Muslim movement.

Left of Cool

[OnlyInAmerica]

28. Every one?

Your statements are quite broad.

"for the last ten years or so, there has been talk by those on the Christian Right, about putting gays in concentration camps."

By all of those on the right, or by fringes on the right? Regardless, it's obviously not a mainstream movement. However, I don't recall seeing Dutch news reports about the recent rise in Christian fundamentalist violence in their country. They have a problem with born again Muslims, not born again Christians. I personally don't care for either group. The difference is I don't fear for my life around radical Christians.

[leftofcool]

34. I think you would have to be there to talk to the people

We are in Amsterdam about every other month or so (have a home there). The people tell us that they have just as many problems with fundie Christians, regardless of what their govt says. I am glad you don't fear for your like around radical Christians. I do.

Left of Cool

[Tempest]

37. There's more to fear from Christians than Muslims

Christians are much more vocal about hate and killing than Muslims in most nations.

And in nations where Muslims are killing, many have a damn good reason for it. The Middle East is a good example.

[vincent_vega_lives]

44. Wow

Don't suppose you travel much in the Middle east?

[The Stranger]

42. People don't usually start off with talk of camps.

It is something that they use as a final solution. Despite the fact that you don't fear for your life, the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis dying in a pointless war led by a born again "Christian" do, no doubt, fear for their life around radical Christians.

[OnlyInAmerica]

43. I'd venture to say

That not every soldier in Iraq is a born again Christian. In fact, I bet there are also atheists, Pagans, Muslims, and Buddhists

[The Stranger]

47. The ones leading the prayers and giving speeches about killing Muslim

"evil" are undoubtedly not atheists, Pagans, Muslims and Buddhists. I don't think the rotten apple argument is going to be any help here. The fundamental basis sold for the war is messianic, and the subtext and historical context is Christian versus Muslim.

[OnlyInAmerica]

48. Where is this happening?

I haven't heard about any troops leading prayers and giving speaches about killing Muslims.

[Ms. Clio]

52. Well, then, you haven't been paying attention

Before the massacre of Fallujah:

Colonel Gary Brandl of the United States Marine Corps commented:
"The enemy has a face. It is Satan's. He is in Fallujah, and we are going to destroy him."


http://scotlandtoday.scottishtv.co.uk/content/default.asp?page=s1_1_1&newsid=5674

[OnlyInAmerica]

55. That's hardly the same thing

As saying "Let's kill them all in the name of God!" Comparing the enemy to Satan is no different than saying the enemy is evil. And yes, many of them are evil. Unless you consider driving a car bomb into a crowd of children, beheading non-military personnel who are trying to rebuild infrastructure, or blowing up Iraqi citizens standing in line for a job to not be evil.

[Ms. Clio]

58. What a disingenous argument

Calling the "enemy" Satan is exactly equivalent to calling for killing them in the name of the God who supposedly opposes Satan.

But hey, then, let's just go with Jerry Falwell's injunction to "blow them all away in the name of the Lord!"

How about dropping cluster bombs on children, shooting civilians as they try to flee a city, using a napalm-like substance on civilians, or invading a defenseless country that never posed any threat to us in the first place? Which are the greater evils?

The "non-military personnel who are trying to rebuild infrastructure" are greedy opportunists out to make a buck. Nothing is being rebuilt in Iraq. See Naomi Klein's article in Harper's Mag. I'd post a link, but somehow I don't think you are here to actually learn any facts. And anyone who harps on "beheadings" as if that was the only standard of barbarity raises certain suspicions--it's a common tactic among certain posters here, most of whom are no longer with us.

[OnlyInAmerica]

61. Whatever

The poster implied that there were 10s of thousands of soldiers going to war in the name of God. One man saying the enemy is Satan hardly qualifies. The examples I used were to show that yes, some of the insurgents are actually evil, not simply people defending their country. Putting "beheadings" in quotes as though they didn't actually happen is quite telling. And saying the non-military personnel in Iraq to rebuild the infrastructure are simply greedy opportunists is ridiculous. The majority of them are civilian employees doing their jobs. Do they make more working in Iraq than in the US? Sure they do, but if I were working in Iraq I'd expect more money for the same job as well because of the high risk. To say nothing is being rebuilt in Iraq is also completely false. The rebuilding is being done in areas that aren't filled with insurgents. Of course, we are morally obligated ot do so since we're the ones who broke it in the first place. I'd post a link, but somehow I don't think you're here to actually learn any facts. Should we have invaded Iraq? No. Bulls**t war on false pretenses? Yes. That doesn't mean that there aren't people in the insurgency who have no interest in doing what's best for Iraq.

[Ms. Clio]

65. But that's not what started this discussion

That's not what he said at all--he said that there were leaders saying prayers about killing Muslims in the name of God, and you claimed that didn't happen.

As for thousands of soldiers going to war in the name of God, obviously some percentage of them are (certainly in the opinion of many war-supporters) according to this blog called, oddly enough, "Training for Eternity."

http://chaplain.blogspot.com/2004/12/mascal.html

As far as reconstruction going on in places "that aren't filled with insurgents?" where would those place be, exactly? And do please provide any links that demonstrate concrete, visible evidence of this reconstruction.

According to Naomi Klein, reconstruction is not occurring. It's not occurring because the greedy opportunists who were out to rape and pillage Iraq decided their lives might be a bit more important than money, after all.

Baghdad Year Zero: Pillaging Iraq in pursuit of a neo-con utopia
by Naomi Klein
September 2004 > Harper's Magazine

It was only after I had been in Baghdad for a month that I found what I was looking for. I had traveled to Iraq a year after the war began, at the height of what should have been a construction boom, but after weeks of searching I had not seen a single piece of heavy machinery apart from tanks and humvees. Then I saw it: a construction crane. It was big and yellow and impressive, and when I caught a glimpse of it around a corner in a busy shopping district I thought that I was finally about to witness some of the reconstruction I had heard so much about. But as I got closer I noticed that the crane was not actually rebuilding anything—not one of the bombed-out government buildings that still lay in rubble all over the city, nor one of the many power lines that remained in twisted heaps even as the heat of summer was starting to bear down. No, the crane was hoisting a giant billboard to the top of a three-story building. SUNBULAH: HONEY 100% NATURAL, made in Saudi Arabia.

http://www.nologo.org/newsite/detail.php?ID=415

(Edited to add link)

[The Stranger]

59. You really are losing credibility. And showing your true colors here:

Comparing the enemy to Satan is no different than saying the enemy is evil. And yes, many of them are evil.

You don't know a single one of these people and cannot state anything about them (other than that they were invaded by the most powerful military on Earth, have been bombed, shocked, awed, tortured, maimed, murdered, etc.) -- much less jump to the incredible judgment that they are "evil."

[OnlyInAmerica]

62. You're right, I don't know them

But I do know that deliberately targeting groups of women, children, and people seeking employment, rather than military forces, is wrong. Period. It seems you are the one who is losing credibility because you refuse to say that the deliberate murder of non-combatants is wrong. And yes, it's wrong when the US does it as well, but that doesn't mean I can't condemn it on both sides.

[The Stranger]

64. Excuse me?

This is a complete fabrication:

It seems you are the one who is losing credibility because you refuse to say that the deliberate murder of non-combatants is wrong.

This statement is simply a lie. You approve of referring to other human beings as "Satan" and "evil" as part of a war, where the underlying basis for that war was weapons of mass destruction that did not exist.

Then you fabricate statements and attempt to attribute them to others -- this is what is costing you your credibility.

[Ms. Clio]

66. The French Resistance also targeted collaborators

The resistance in Iraq primarily targets men who join up with the so-called police or National Guard. Since they are or will be theoretically armed and able to shoot at other Iraqis, they do not really qualify as "non-combatants."

[OnlyInAmerica]

69. So that makes it okay?

Where does one draw the line? Are 7 year old boys legitimate targets? After all, they could grow up and become a collaborator if the US is still there in a decade (which, judging by the clusterf**k, seems entirely possible at this point). Strange, too, that this is the same reasoning that Hamas and Islamic Jihad use to justify the bombings of buses and pizza parlors. After all, Israel has compulsory service, so everyone, no matter the age, is a legitimate target.

As for rebuilding links, try these:

http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/pdf/AYearInIraq_health.pdf

http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/2004/nr20041203-1772.html

http://www.waterandwastewater.com/www_services/news_center/publish/article_00391.shtml

There are other sources I'm sure, but I am merely stating that there are rebuilding efforts underway.

[Ms. Clio]

92. C'mon, are you for real?

You send me to government propaganda sites and call it proof? Where are the reports by real journalists, like Naomi Klein?

Where did the French Resistance draw the line? So interesting that you are not willing to address that direct comparison. I know, I know, god forbid anyone should resist a U.S. occupation--we're just there out of sweet sweet love and to graciously rebuild all the things we blew up!

Did I say anything about killing 7-year-old boys? Jesus. Talk about hyperbole.

[OnlyInAmerica]

106. Look some up on your own

I didn't realize that wasteandwastewater.com was a gov't propaganda site. There was also a good write-up on reconstruction efforts in US News & World Report about 3 weeks ago, but you have to have a paid subscription to view it. When did Naomi Klein become a pre-eminent expert on Iraq? But you're probably right, the US won't do any rebuilding in Iraq, just like we didn't do any in Japan or Germany after WW2.

And no, you didn't say anything about killing 7 year old boys, but I think it is a legitimate question. How young is too young? 16? 15? 12? When do they stop becoming "potential collaborators" and become simply Iraqi citizens looking for jobs?

[Ms. Clio]

107. No, you're the one who claimed to know all about it

You have the burden of proof. I'm not going to try to prove a negative--that would be like Iraq trying to prove it didn't have WMDs. As it turned out, there were none. So you prove me wrong--find all the stories and pictures in MSM sources about all the reconstruction--or is it just that the "liberal media" stubbornly refuses to report on all the "good" that is happening there?

Yet another report says U.S. has spent little on Iraq reconstruction
http://newstandardnews.net/content/?action=show_item&itemid=642


The Iraqis have been under U.S. occupation for twenty-one months--and they have virtually no gas, no electricity, no clean water, no sewage disposal, and they are running short on food.

This is not World War 2 and Iraq is not Germany or Japan. Do you think either of those countries was in the sort of desperate straits Iraq is in now after 21 months of U.S. occupation, including the daily violence, bombings of cities, kicking in doors and hauling men and women away for interrogation and torture?

It is not a legitimate questions--it is sheer hyperbole. No seven-year-old boys are seeking employment. And teenaged boys are not being recruited by the so-called "police" and "National Guard."

[brentspeak]

90. Oh, the poor, misunderstood Iraqi "freedom fighters"...

who are merely killing future Iraqi "traitors". Why is it that people can't see that the insurgants are the true scions of the American Revolutionary War's minutemen... :thumbsdown:

It appears that not only did we lose the elections, but this website as well. Surrendered and handed-over to the radical left-wingers.

[Ms. Clio]

93. They are also doing a pretty good job at killing

the foreigners occupying their country. Oh, they shouldn't do that, right? But I'll bet you had no trouble with the Afghan mujahadeen taking out the Russians, did you?

I did not compare them to the Minutemen--I compared them to the French Resistance. However, obviously you can't respond rationally to that line of argument--so you resort to lame retorts like this one.

I've been here almost four years--and if you are still here in 4 years, maybe I'll bother to read your posts again.

:::::::plonk:::::::::::

[Igel]

72. You know, I've had born-again, evangelical, fundamentalist,

and all sorts of other Xian friends for the last 30 years. Never heard one mention of camps. Wow, what are the odds of that?

[Moloch]

102. I really don't think those people follow Christian ideals....

Fred Phelps and the KKK are just using religious beliefs to mask their main message which is hate. People have always done this throughout history, it doesn't reflect on Christianity itself. It's just a way to "sell" their "product".

[strobetoad]

54. A Fundie is a Fundie

Bible-Believer Bubba sees what the Taliban does to women and "infidels", and thinks it's not really such a bad system.

[w4rma]

99. You can't paint Fallwell's and Robertson's followers with that broad brush

Many of thier followers *do* believe in murder for their religion. That's one of the biggest reasons why so many of these fundamentalists support Bush's occupation of Iraq and also support invading more countries to kill and oppress as many Muslims as possible.

[Ms. Clio]

51. Jerry Falwell said "blow them all away in the name of the Lord"

I guess it's different when you are calling for the death of other people's children, right?

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

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[Tempest]

39. What the hell is wrong with you?

He posted an article and you start in on him as if it's his personal story.

Everything you mentioned about Muslims is a strawman, which has nothing to do with the original posting. That's why it's not, or at least shouldn't be, brought up.

[brentspeak]

46. "Shouldn't be brought up?"

What are you, the thought police? You start going off on some imaginary tangent about hordes of Christians murdering gays -- which has nothing at all to do with the news article -- and it's the OTHER DU'er who "shouldn't bring" certain topics up?

[Tempest]

49. You misinterpreted what I meant

When I said it shouldn't be brought up, I meant in the context of the thread.

And as far as my going off on "some imaginary tangent", it was appropriate considering the post I was responding to. My post was in context.

I know that may be hard for you to understand.

[jellybelly]

75. not fair...

I was talking to the one that posted something about christians in a thread that dealt with muslim violence. getting deleted for telling someone to go on anti-christian threads and talk about the practices of radical Islam is a bit odd since I wasn't being racist or harrassing other memebers, but who cares right?

[Ms. Clio]

53. Maybe you should get your facts straight

Genital mutilation is a horrific cultural practice that predates Islam.

A number of the highly-publicized "hate crimes" in France have turned out to be bogus.

[jellybelly]

77. so it doesn't matter?

predates it but it's still practiced right? I wasn't trying to bring up anti-Islamic issues. I just wanted the harrassing of Christians stopped on this 'Dutch-Muslim' thread. There are plenty of other threads that are welcoming to anti-christian comments.

[Ms. Clio]

94. The point is that it's practiced by people for cultural reasons

Not religious reasons, so blaming Islam for it is disingenuous. In Sudan, for example, it is practiced among Coptic Christians, too.

[Moloch]

101. Born Again Christians are not as prevalent in Europe

as they are here in the U.S. I don't have a link with me, but I think only about 5% of Europeans attend church regularly.

[Deja Q]

56. Weren't most of us both okay the first time? Born-agains seem to be the

the worst troublemakers these days.

[MrSlayer]

68. This is a big problem for the Dutch and all of Europe.

They have had such a massive influx of fundy Muslims that they are in danger of losing their countries to them eventually through democratic means. Muslims come in and pro-create in disproportionate amounts compared the natural citizens, get themselves elected and turn the country into a radical fundy state by using democratic methods. It might sound paranoid but that's what the plan seems to be. Anyone else see this or am I way out in left field?

[brentspeak]

74. You are correct. Euro's hospitality to Muslims has been abused

[jellybelly]

76. right

that was exactly my point. Right-wing muslims are literally going to bring down Europe's liberal society, (and someright-wing christians are doing it in the US). If this thread was posted to discuss Dutch problems with right-wing muslims can we leave Christians out of it? I hope not to get deleted because I said 'right-wing muslims':wtf: :puke:

[TO Kid]

83. Some radical Islamist have called for that

Some Islamists have called for Muslims to settle in other countries and quietly build up their numbers until they were sufficient to sway elections. The best way to counter that is to make sure that their kids are fully engaged in the local community- the worst thing to do would be to let them remain isolated.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

108. Ah, you mean those evil things liberals propose and conservatives hate

Like public education and complete separation of church and state.

The shoe hurts when it's on the other foot.

[Ms. Clio]

98. Yeah, it sounds paranoid

Please identify any country that has been turned into a "radical fundy state" by this terrifying secret army of baby-making Muslims.

Jesus H. Christ. Why is it that subjects like this make so many DUers sound exactly like freepers?

[MrSlayer]

104. I didn't say it's already happened.

I said that this is coming in the future for Europe not that it's already happened.


I'm hardly a Freeper, thanks for your input.

[InvisibleBallots]

79. Why are these Muslims being called "born again"?

Is there anything in the Islamic faith that suggests believers be "born again" like in Christianity? Or is this an attempt to smear born again Christians by trying to associate them with Islamic radicals?

[TO Kid]

84. Well, to give the benefit of the doubt...

The term "born again" is used for anyone who rediscovers something and becomes passionate about it. A good example is the term "born again rocketeer" (I am one) that is used to describe people who used to build rockets as kids, abandoned the hobby, then later got back into it.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

85. Good. If it pisses off "born again" Christians then I am all for it

nobody has a monopoly or franchise on God or Jesus or any of it.
Here's to born again atheists! :toast:

[InvisibleBallots]

86. what about all the born again Christians who are Democrats?

Fuck 'em!

[tinanator]

89. they can do that?

Must be hard to fit in with the flocked.

[jellybelly]

91. Does it matter?

You can't discuss radicals of any religion without someone commenting "what about those Jesus freaks?" Why are conservative muslims free from any criticism?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

109. They ARE alike. Deal with it.

The Muslim side of fundamentalism has just been lucky nobody threw an Enlightenment to clog THEIR works.

[davidinalameda]

87. all fundies are wrong

Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Hindu, etc

[InvisibleBallots]

88. what about Pagan fundies?

Are they all wrong too? ;)

[w4rma]

100. Most likely, yes. (nt)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

103. This thread has degenerated.

:crazy:

[InvisibleBallots]

112. Muslims feel a threat from the Dutch, no wonder

One Dutch man is killed by a fundie Muslim fanatic, and the Dutch go on a spree of burning down mosques, elementary schools - and who was this man? A film director making a movie about a Pim Fortyn, who suggested stripping Muslims of their Civil Rights and restricting their immigration - and coincidentally, loved Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan and right-wing economics. Pim Fortyn was assassinated by a non-Muslim Dutch, but you would hardly realize that listening to some of the stories.

Not to mention the Netherlands in collaborating with the US in Iraq and elsewhere.

[Name removed]

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