Pope begs Jesus not to abandon humanity

[CHIMO]

VATICAN CITY - Pope John Paul II appealed to Jesus during his Christmas Eve homily, asking him to "stay with us forever" because "all humanity, with its burdens of trials and troubles, stands in need of you."

"Look upon us, eternal Son of God, who took flesh in the womb of the Virgin Mary! Stay with us, living Bread, which came down from heaven for our salvation! Stay with us forever! Amen!" he concluded.

Speaking in a quiet, slurred voice, the pontiff made no direct mention of the world's desperate political situations or of the suffering of the world's impoverished populations.

The faithful were told to pray for Christians, Muslims and Jews in the Holy Land, so they could one day live in peaceful coexistence.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2004/12/24/pope-homily041224.html

Peace be with you.

[Algorem]

1. "Pope Ushers in Christmas With Midnight Mass" is top story on Netscape

How is this every-year dog and pony show news at all?

[xerenthar]

3. How "tolerant"

[Algorem]

5. You're right.I don't see why Gawd doesn't lower the boom on that old

fraud either.

[Puglover]

28. I agree

when the pope stops his attack on me and my gay brothers I might think about showing him and his church some respect, until then he and his get what he gives us.

[The Magistrate]

6. A Rather Silly Comment, Sir

No one who does not share another's beliefs is under any obligation to treat them with reverence; people who hew to particular beliefs really ought to get used to other people expressing dis-belief....

"We are all obliged to respect the other fellow's religious beliefs, but only in the same sense we respect his belief that his wife is beauty and his off-spring show great promise."

[DemBones DemBones]

8. Part of respecting others' religious beliefs, Sir, is to refrain

from making mocking or derogatory comments, just as polite, civilized people don't go around telling a man his wife is ugly and his children a collection of slackers.

Why is it, Sir, that a post attacking Judaism or Islam will be removed but one attacking Catholicism will be allowed to stay?

[The Magistrate]

17. That Is Worth An Answer, My Friend

To my view, there is at least this distinction in the matter: in quite recent times, Anti-Semitism has been a hugely lethal matter, killing literally millions; in quite recent times, an ascription of inferiority to Moslem peoples has enabled imperial adventure of global scope, and does so even today; it is impossible to find much by way of even near parallel in recent times to couple with expression of even bigotted distaste for Catholicism, the questions for instance of Ireland and Spain being of a far lesser scale. In short, the first two are perceived as killing matters, the other is not.

There are further complications as well. Expressions of distaste for a religion, any religion, may well not be the result of bigotry, but of knowledge and experience leading to conclusions that, while they may be most unpalatable to a believer, cannot honestly be written off for the sake of the believer's feelings as prejudiced rant. Many of the harshest things said about Catholicism, for example, are said by people born and raised themselves in that faith, who have by that intimate knowledge of it come to feel a profound dislike for its clergy and doctrines, and the view of life these inculcate. To pursue further the Menckenism above, there are indeed times the wife is no beauty and the off-spring clearly on a course for gaol, and mention of that cannot be stifled entirely.

Believers in any faith have always a blind spot towards any possible sense in comments that tend towards dis-belief in the faith they hew to, and necessarily so, because faith is hewn to, by definition, without any support from fact or reason, for were such supports available, faith would not be required; the thing would be proven. It is analogous to the complaint sometimes heard from those who glory in punishments that some particular miscreant does not deserve mercy he may have received: that complaint is nonesense, for mercy is by definition undeserved; if it were deserved, it would be not mercy but justice.

But on account of this sensibility, believers cannot rightfully demand that their senses never be impacted by the scoffs and jeers of those who do not share their faith; they cannot expect to impose on others who do not share their faith the degree of acquiesence to their view of things necessary to require silence be kept in their presence on the matter. That is rather like a fellow who, say, simply cannot stand the sight of two men walking hand and hand, and feels that is more than enough reason that a pair of lovers must refrain from doing so lest he see it, and suffer such an affront to his sensibilities in the matter that he could not bear to feel it.

"All religions are founded on the fear of the many and the cleverness of the few."

[naryaquid]

19. ...It is far too late in the evening (or early in the morning) for me to

contest your arguments line by line, however I will make respond to at least one: If many of the "harshest things said about Catholicism, for example are said by people born and raised themselves in the faith", the same can be said of those raised in Judaism and Islam...and they are.

[The Magistrate]

21. Absolutely True, Sir

That is why it was identified as an example. You could any creed you cared to name to the list, doubtless. It takes real knowledge to dislike a thing properly and fully....

"Where it is a duty to worship the sun, it is pretty sure to be a crime to examine the laws of heat."

[ozymandius]

22. A light anecdote regarding reason and faith -

Joseph Campbell related this experience to Bill Moyers in the video series, "The Power of Myth".

While in his forties, his writings and teachings had become legendary, much to the distaste of many religious institutions, notably Catholicism, with all their doctrines and practices in an age prior to Vatican II.

As a middle-aged man, Campbell enjoyed swimming at the YMCA. Campbell had finished his laps and retired to a bench alongside the pool. He had been there a few short minutes when a Catholic priest joined him, engaging him in conversation. I paraphrase the exchange:

PRIEST: Good day, Mister Campbell. I have read some of your material and am quite intrigued by it. Let me ask you, are you a priest Mister Campbell?

CAMPBELL: No, Father.

PRIEST: Are you a Roman Catholic?

CAMPBELL: I used to be, Father.

PRIEST: Let me ask you: do you believe in a personal Lord and Savior, Mister Campbell?

CAMPBELL: No I don't, Father.

PRIEST: Then I suppose it would be futile to attempt convincing you through course of reason of such a relationship.

CAMPBELL: Then what would be the purpose of faith, Father?

(thoughtful pause)

PRIEST: It's been nice chatting with you Mister Campbell.

What a better place our world would be if exchanges regarding differences of belief exhibited such brevity of engagement, thoughtfulness and polite disengagement.

[luaneryder]

30. JC was top shelf!

Here is a man whose view of life, treatment of those around him, love of the myths and mystery of existence I truly admire. If I ascribed a label to my spirituality it would be Campbellism.

[reprobate]

39. Mr. Campbell should be required reading for every schoolchild.

But then reason and logic are no longer tought in our schools.

It would be unamerican.

[Old Mouse]

63. Campbell is like all Prophets

Some of his words are held up, and others ignored. Now that he is gone, the misquoting and out of context referencing will begin.

[The Magistrate]

81. As A Point Of Curiousity, Sir

How do you distinguish between applying this pereception to Mr. Campbell, who is not among my own favorite figures in comparative religion, and applying it to the figure at the basis of the Christian sects?

"Religion is the masterpiece of animal training, for it determines how people think."

[Old Mouse]

85. All Prophets, if you please.

Campbell is often invoked to further conjecture put forth by those who believe a particular religious philosophy to be superior to another, or one to be inferior to another. This is clearly against Campbell's teachings and his often expressed personal philosophy.

In fact, I personally find him most quoted by Americans who aspire enlightenment from eastern religions, although Campell clearly stated that in his view people from the west were psychologically incapable from experiencing any transcendence from eastern practices.

[The Magistrate]

87. Then, Sir

You would accept that this same process must apply to the figure upon which Christianity is based, and that this selective winnowing by successive humans at ever increasing distance must tend to vitiate any claim the resultant structure of thought has much relation to whatever the origional article might have been?

[Old Mouse]

95. I would love to know what he actually said

"I am the son of God"
or
"We are the sons of God"

I trust nothing post-canonization. Whatever the origin, it has all been in the hands of humans for millennia. Anyone who swears it to be true has an overdeveloped sense of self. Anyone who swears it to be untrue has an overdeveloped sense of self.

But I bear no ill to those who find solace with it. Any port in a storm.

[The Magistrate]

108. It Does Not Rank Too High Among My Curiousities, Sir

It is a bloody little book, when all is said and done, comperable to a work like the Illiad and the Oddyssy in preserving some broadly useful historical traditions along with a picture of an antique world view.

It is vanishingly unlikely, though, that either of the things you wonder were uttered by the fellow were ever uttered by him. Neither could have been uttered save as despicable blasphemies by an observant Jew of the time: the idea of being sons of the diety in any real sense was a wholly pagan idea, and the pagan world, of course, was crawling with such. In Judaism the occassional appearance of a such a formula was wholly metaphorical, and applied to persons, such as David, who were viewed as having in some such done such good work for the tribal diety that he was moved to some feeling best expressed as "That's my boy!"

[davekriss]

104. My brother read Hero in high school...

I think it was his junior year when he had to read Hero with a Thousand Faces. It is his worn copy I have on my shelf, along with the volumes of the Masks of God and other books. "Follow your bliss!", Joseph advised...

If you do follow your bliss, you put yourself on a kind of track that has been there all the while waiting for you, and the life you ought to be living is the one you are living. When you can see that, you begin to meet people who are in the field of your bliss, and they open the doors to you.

I say, follow your bliss and don't be afraid, and doors will open where you didn't know they were going to be.

-- Joseph Campbell, The Power of Myth with Bill Moyers, "Bliss and Sacrifice"

Joseph Campbell gave a series of lectures at my university when I was an undergrad which I had the priviledge of attending. Along with Gary Snyder (who read poetry at my school around the same time), Joseph Campbell is amongst the most enlightened beings I've ever met. You saw it in the glee of his eyes; in the delight of his voice! It was an honor and a joy to listen to him.

[klyon]

25. thanks

Your point about nonbelievers not needing to show reverence is so true. They seem to show no respect for other's beliefs how can they expect even niceties from others.

KL

[amber dog democrat]

32. As a non believer myself

I do respect the beliefs of others - especially since so many seem willing to die for them. I just don't suscribe to an organized religion and keep much of my personal feelings private on this subject.

I will be forever learnng about belief systems and cultures as an outsider.

[InvisibleBallots]

26. so, no one needs to respect Catholics or Christians

until they get murdered in large numbers - then, and only then, should we refrain from nasty attacks against their religion. That's quite an interesting belief.

[The Magistrate]

48. As The Saying Goes, Sir

"Sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never harm me."

The less seriously people take themselves, the more pleasant and the easier their experience of life will be....

[InvisibleBallots]

82. Don't call me "sir", I work for a living

"The less seriously people take themselves, the more pleasant and the easier their experience of life will be...."

While I agree with the sentiment your post did seemed rather serious, what with the genocide and all.

[reprobate]

38. Elegant, Magistrate. Truly elegant arguementation.

This would be a far more pleasant world if we could all express our ideas in as precise a manner.

I would be envious, but I'm sure such adroitness with words came at the expence of much practice.

[Just Me]

99. "Faith" is a fascinating strength.

I respect God but place my faith in humanity.

I was raised in a "form" of Christianity (there are so, so many strains) and, after disenchantment, studied Hinduism, Buddhism, a bit of this/that and the other theological orientations. I also delved into the "edited" writings excluded from "the Bible".

I figure myself a deist.

I embrace those who empowered humanity towards a peaceful and whole existence and reject those who divide humanity in order to empower themselves.

I loathe anyone who "USES" either religion or governance in order to serve a personal thirst for power over others.

P.S. "Pope begs Jesus not to abandon humanity" is an assinine headline. Someone was intending to provoke with that bullshit,...quite obviously.

[happynewyear]

35. I agree with you Dem Bones 100%

Try bashing a Jew or a Muslim or anyone else around here and your time is up. Its just fine to bash and condemn Catholics though isn't it? It is really very sad that the members of the DU (not all, but some) don't realize that many of "us" are members of this forum.

btw ... I went to Xmas Eve Mass yesterday and it really helped me a lot on a personal level.

It felt good to be around others that do not condemn me for my faith in God and how I might care to express it.

[gorbal]

36. Some of the Coolest people I know are Catholic

It's strange, because when I hear about the Catholic league and other Catholic groups do they really tick me off, but you have to remember that MOST catholics are liberals, and amoung them are some of the coolest peeple you will ever meet.

:)

[happynewyear]

40. I'm not in any "leagues" etc.

and furthermore, I don't necessarily agree with all the the Church preaches. However, this does not mean that I cannot go and be with other Catholics. Many are just like me and I know it.

I don't donate heavily to the Church or participate in their functions. However, I was raised as a Catholic and they sure helped a lot when my parents were dying and other family members have died.

I'd be all alone pretty much this Christmas if it weren't for the Catholic Church.

I wonder how many ever consider such a possibility in their lives? Probably not very many as they open their gifts this a.m.

No gifts to be seen around here. Only the gift I have is knowing that God is in my life which is bigger than any package under any tree.

I know lots of very cool Catholics myself and I suppose I would have given up a long time ago if this was not the case. :smoke:

[0007]

41. .......and some of the worse you will ever meet.

[happynewyear]

43. how do you know?

ever practiced the Catholic faith? If you have, you should know that it is not a "one size fits all" religion. If it were, it would have died a long time ago. It isn't going away.

There were more people at Christmas Eve mass yesterday than I've ever seen at my small parish. The priest was overwhelmed and happy I could tell.

It was a children's mass and it was lovely I thought seeing all the little kids and they did a whole thing explains who the real "St. Nicholas" was for the kids. They were so very excited by all of it and their parents were filming the reenactment of the birth of Christ.

What is so very wrong with this exactly?

[0007]

45. ...during my 72 years of living I've came across quite a few nasty

Catholics.

Here are some I never got to meet.

1984
The Rev. Gilbert Gauthe of the Lafayette, La., diocese pleads guilty to molesting 11 boys and admits victimizing dozens more. In a widening scandal, 19 other priests are accused of abuse, and the diocese negotiates costly out-of-court settlements with victims.

1985
The Rev. Thomas Doyle, a canon lawyer for the Vatican embassy in Washington, writes a confidential memo for the nation's Catholic bishops citing 30 cases with 100 victims and projecting a cost to the church of $1 billion over 10 years. Also, journalist Jason Berry writes a nationwide survey of the problem for the National Catholic Reporter, drawing the secular media's attention to it.

1989
Hawaii's Joseph Ferrario becomes the first U.S. bishop accused of molestation. A court dismisses the charges because they were filed too late, but Ferrario, who denied the charges, retires early in 1993.

1990
The Rev. Bruce Ritter, celebrated leader of Covenant House for teen runaways, steps down amid a scandal. He denies an accusation of molestation from one youth, but others step forward to accuse him and the Covenant House board reports extensive misconduct. Ritter's Franciscan superiors in Rome approve a transfer to India, but outrage following a news report about the move forces the plan to be scrapped.

1992
The U.S. bishops take their first major collective action, endorsing a set of principles for handling cases. At the same time, Berry's history of the scandals, "Lead Us Not Into Temptation," estimates 400 priests have been accused, costing the church some $400 million.

1994
The growing victims' rights movement suffers a credibility setback when Steven Cook recants his sensational claim that Chicago's Cardinal Joseph Bernardin had molested him. Bernardin's former archdiocese in Cincinnati paid a settlement to Cook over a seminary teacher's abuse

1997
A Dallas jury hears charges from 11 victims of ex-priest Rudy Kos and returns a $120-million verdict. The award was later cut to about $30 million, but the diocese needs to take out mortgages and sell property to cover the judgment.

1999
Bishop J. Keith Symons of Palm Beach, Fla., becomes the first U.S. bishop to resign after admitting molestation. That scandal was greatly compounded in 2002 when Bishop Anthony O'Connell, the successor Rome appointed to clean house, resigns for the identical reason.

2000
The Rev. Andrew Greeley, an author and sociologist, writes an introduction for a new edition of Berry's history. The sex abuse situation, he contends, "may be the greatest scandal in the history of religion in America and perhaps the most serious crisis Catholicism has faced since the Reformation."

Jan. 18, 2002
Defrocked Boston priest John Geoghan, 66, is convicted of indecent assault and battery as a priest sex scandal in the archdiocese widens. Geoghan, 66, has been accused of abusing 130 children while he was actively serving as a priest in the Archdiocese of Boston over a 30-year period. He faces more criminal and civil suits.

Feb. 21, 2002
Geoghan is sentenced to 9-10 years in prison as the archdiocese continues to reel from the scandal. The extent of the cover-up and the sheer number of priests involved has shocked Boston's large Catholic community, leading to calls for Cardinal Bernard Law to step down. Meanwhile, new cases are being reported in several other states.

[barb162]

79. I was just about to psot something along these lines; glad

you did it for me

[Tansy_Gold]

111. And please don't forget

Bishop Thomas J. O'Brien, formerly of the Phoenix, AZ, diocese.

Not only did Bishop O'Brien preside over a continuing cover-up of priestly sex abuse in his diocese, but he compounded his crimes by hitting and killing a pedestrian, leaving the scene of the accident, attempting to have the damage to his church-owned vehicle repaired secretly, and then showing no remorse whatsoever when found guilty of manslaughter in court.

Bishop O'Brien did not go to jail for any of his crimes, though he was forced to resign his position as head of diocese. However, when sentenced to perform X number of hours of community service work, O'Brien asked the court to consider as part of those hours the time he spent driving to and from the office where he would perform the actual work.

I come late to this thread, but I did not see any bashing of Catholic believers here. What I did see was criticism of bigoted, hateful, hurtful church policies and the individuals who enforce them, including John Paul II.


Tansy Gold

[AngryOldDem]

115. You can say that about any societal group

Democrats, for instance. I would never dare to generalize that some of the hate and intolerance I see here from time to time is a widespread condition of the party as a whole. Neither should you assume that what you perceive to be the failings of the Catholics you know are true of all of us who profess the faith.

[ashmanonar]

98. indeed

the christians who actually bother me are the funformentalists...the catholics are the most liberal and tolerant as any i've met...

[ruggerson]

54. Show me the last time a Catholic was forbidden to marry in this country

or leave their estate to their spouse. Or visit their spouse in the hospital. Or not have inheritance rights.

This crap about Catholic/Christian victimhood is bogus.

It's rightwing, vicious Christians who deny other people's families equality and justice before the law, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

Merry Christmas!

[Behind the Aegis]

62. I just have to ask...

Where has a poster attacked Catholicism on this thread, at least by the time you had posted? This is a serious question. I am just confused because I have seen so many posters claim "discrimination" when it is nothing more than a flippant remark, or sometimes rude, but not an attack on the Catholic Church. Snide remarks, while not polite, are not attacks.

[Algorem]

9. Let's face it,the Pope's a dope.

[naryaquid]

18. ..Not an answer to Dem Bones point....I'm sure

that the other religions she mentions have their share of "dopes" as well..

[Old Mouse]

23. One of the best to take the job.

Post canonization is a bitch to be sure, but has the east fared any better? Ask the Aum or check the clandestine dealings of the Tibetan Royal Guard.

We are all but monkeys masturbating at the moon. Your religion that the pope is wrong is no greater than his religion that he is right.

[The Magistrate]

50. In What Sense, Sir?

The man has done a great deal to strengthen the most reactionary tendencies within the organization he heads, and to extirpate the more progressive and liberal lines of development within it.

"Truth, in matters of religion, is simply the opinion that has survived."

[VegasWolf]

53. How about the insane popes? Catholicism teaches that the pope is

infallible when he speaks “ex cathedra” (literally “from the chair” or with authority) on matters of faith and morals. (This rule came about because of the number of insane popes who came to power during the course of Roman Catholic history; to stop a pope from speaking authoritatively, one merely had to prevent him from sitting on the chair).

http://hippocampusextensions.com/issues/08/denominations.php?page=5

Anyway, I was taught all this in catholic school. Therfore,
the ban against abortion, the use of condoms, and most serious
of all masturbation are all prohibited literally by the word of
god. I also remember reading about the one insane pope who
could not stand the sound of singing birds, so he had all the
birds in the Vatican courtyards poisoned.

[Just Me]

102. Although they exercised authority, I was taught they're still "MAN".

None are "perfect".

Yup. Some HAD to be "perfect" and HIDE their weaknesses, simultaneously.

They were corrupt. They were sick.

Their "community" became dysfunctional the minute (many times over many centuries over) that imperfection and sickness or simple difference was DENIED rather than acknowledged, faced, felt and freed.

Humanity's greatest stupidity,...is failing to acknowledge its own humility.

[Old Mouse]

61. You operate under the impression

he does not believe the rules he operates under to be true.

He has reached out to other faiths and attempted amends greater than any other in his position. There is nothing liberal in the cannon, and he cannot modernize without authority.

[The Magistrate]

64. As A Matter Of Curiosity, Sir

Would you be kind enough to share with me where, from my rather spare comment above, you find warrant for stating my views on the fellow's attachment or otherwise to his professed beliefs?

In all theological disputes of which news has reached the public, he has sided with the most reactionary view. As these are all disputes over what the canon means and contains by persons who have studied it deeply, and find support for their views in it, they can only be considered differences of opinion as to its meaning and content: the fact that under the organizational structure his opinion is a priviledged one able to trump any other does not alter the fact that it, too, is an opinion.

[Old Mouse]

66. you say it yourself

You blame the pope for the Church's inadequate social moral evolution.

But his job is not to debate nor decide. It is to upheld and enforce. His opinion is correct by authority of office, and can only be moved by instruction of higher authority.

Whatever he believes to be cannon IS until God speaks to him. No matter how as a human he is influenced by the psychological trapping of his past and present environment, he cannot, in good faith, modernize through logical deduction.

[The Magistrate]

68. The Problem, Sir, Is Simple

And hinted at in my longer piece above.

You believe this, and so the matter really is not susceptible of discussion with you. It is not to me an article of belief that any diety communicates to the Pope. The rationalizations of this particular human being for his decisions, and for his exercise of the power held in his hands, have no more sacred character than those of any other human being to me. You seem to expect to be granted just the modicum of assent to your view to treat seriously for purposes of discussing this matter the idea that this individual receives particular communications from a diety, and further that, absent such a communication, his current opinion on some complex complex matter is absolutely right, as opposed to absolutely authoritative for those who allow their minds to be imposed on by his views.

"The worshiper is the father of the Gods."

[Old Mouse]

84. You mistake what you assume

I do not believe it.

But I give him the benefit of the doubt that he does.

[The Magistrate]

86. Then For You, Sir

This is some sort of forensics exercise only?

It is not being particularly well handled, if that is the case. That the fellow believes something does not in the slightest affect my points. My points are these. First, in the various complex disputes among theologians and the curia concerning what the canon actually directs, this fellow consistently sides with the most reactionary faction in the dispute. Second, a person who believes this is the result of a personal channel of communication between the fellow and a diety cannot rightfully expect anyone who does not share that belief to treat that proposition with the slightest degree of seriousness, and yet believers in it will tend to complain of unfair treatment when it is not treated seriously by an opposing disputant, which tends to edge any discussion of the matter towards squawks of protest that intolerance is being shown, and reduce the discussion to a competition for the status of "victim" so sacred to much of modern political and social discourse.

All views of what the canon actually directs are opinions; all disputants in Church debates that reach the Pope over its directions are professionals in the art of its interpertaion, and able to substantiate their opinions with appropriate citations sufficient to their justification in a reasonable degree. Therefore, if a person consistently sides with the most reactionary of such disputants, that person can only be considered a fellow of reactionary spirit, and should he be in a position of authority, can only be viewed as using that authority towards reactionary ends. Any claim that he cannot do otherwise because he has received no communication from a diety is, put most kindly, merest moonshine, and put most bluntly, a shoddy evasion of personal responsibility. It has been well said that when a man is about to do something he suspects may be wrong but intends to do nonetheless, he always says it is his duty, and obedience to the will of, or to communication from, a diety, is a similar device. This is something people say when they mean to do for their own reasons something they are not quite prepared, for whatever reason, to wholly own as their own action. Whatever promptings emerge in a human's mind to strike a human's conciousness originate in that mind, and are the product of that human personality alone; it makes no more difference to this whether the human in question imagines and believes some of them proceed from a diety or a demon or a long dead grandmother or the mind rays aimed to control him by the C.I.A. or the Illuminati. All humans act as they are pleased to act, and that it pleases one to act in the belief the act is a response to a communication from a diety does not alter this in the least.

[Old Mouse]

94. Oh, for the time

to do this most tasty morsel justice, but it is the holidays, and I must flee...

To quickly assert, you are coming from the view that will is conscious, and the pope has the freedom to decide upon which factors that shaped his persona he will allow to persuade, and which he will not. That idea of freedom is a new and illusionary concept, as modern neuroscience is, to its dismay, finding to be inarguably true.

Given the extreme constraint of belief necessary to hold the title, the current pope has stretched the boundaries of the church's doctrine more than anyone has a reasonable right to assume possible.

And as for my beliefs, I believe if I do not get off of this computer at once I will find holiday dinner pored down my back.

You sir, are a joy to talk to.

[The Magistrate]

109. And You As Well, Sir

Cats like mice....

Being on guard against some degree of unfair imputation to your brief remarks, it would seem you are making some claim that humans are in essence automatons, and that this has been satisfactorily demonstrated by recent developments in neurology. That seems to me to be very far from so, and certainly very far from having been demonstrated to be so.

It is true that all mental activity comes down to chemical-electro interaction between neurons, and that different balances of various chemicals in the brain can affect the course these take, and that these balances will come to differ owing to differential ecperiences a human may have undergone, and even owing to differing genetic dispositions in some cases. But this is very far from the assertion you seem to have made, and does not suffice to negate the idea of concious choice among available alternatives at the final sorting stage of belief and action. A person at a poker table may be dealt a better or a worser hand, but still makes a choice of how to play it, and may play it well or poorly.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

52. shoulder.remove(chip);

Come on. Many people are annoyed by these idiotic "non-news news". Here in Rio, there's always some stupid spot about "beaches crowded as hot season begins." Makes me want to throw blunt objects at the TV.

[renaissanceguy]

91. YAWN!

When will he just pass on so the Catholic church can begin its long overdue reformation?

------------------------------------
Anti-BUSH and other outspoken political buttons, bumper stickers, and t-shirts at www.cafepress.com/liberalissues

[Erika]

2. With the Pope's Message

I'm surprised he hasn't been placed on W's terrorist list.

[MRDU]

4. Pope begs Jesus !

The 10,000 who managed to file through the basilica's doors, including representatives of 150 governments, were searched with metal detectors.

Security was also tight in the piazza itself, which was patrolled by security driving electric Lamborghini mini cars.

We trust in the Lord. But just in case, We have electric Lamborghini mini cars!

[DemBones DemBones]

7. Since the pope was shot, Vatican security has been tighter.

He was shot in St. Peter's Square, during an appearance to the public.

Michelangelo's "Pieta" was also vandalized right there in St. Peter's Basilica.

It's sad that people would shoot a religious leader or vandalize a great artwork but since it happens, more security is called for.

[C.C.D.]

15. Sad indeed. (nt)

[Algorem]

20. That could be a good job,as long as they let you toke up before work.

I'd be like,all

[merh]

10. See, even he knows that satan has seized power

he knows that the weed and his minions are evil!

[high density]

11. World peace? Huh??

I thought the Pope wanted me to vote on abortion and stopping the gays!!!??? I is so confuzzled!!

[GRLMGC]

12. Actually

He advised American Catholic voters to take other issues into account when making their decision this year. He basically advised them to vote against Bush. Unfortunately, American Bishops vetoed this information and endorsed Bush.

[Erika]

14. And it is theirs to answer to God

why they chose war over peace.

[high density]

16. Yeah, I was being facetious

I think the Catholic Church could shut up those loud Bishops if they wanted to but they didn't. Heck, most Catholics probably weren't even aware that Kerry was Catholic until he brought it up during the debates.

[Erika]

13. The Pope was also against our war on the Iraqis

Remember Christ's Golden Rule?

[0007]

24. World peace is like beauty, it is in the eye of the beholder.

[leftchick]

27. JPII KNOWS....

bush* is the anti-Christ! :scared:

[luaneryder]

29. That's what I'm hearing

from some quasi fundies I know. Maybe they'll spread the word. ** certainly fits the description I've read of the AC.

[Cerridwen]

31. Now if only he would appeal to the parts of humanity who

follow Jesus' teachings, to not abandon Jesus' teachings.

The teachings of Jesus I remember are love, compassion, helping "the least of us," keeping ones faith in ones heart, Christmas time is about "Peace on Earth; Good Will toward Men" and is to be kept year-'round in ones heart, love thy enemy, and other such touchy-feely ideas.

But then, I'm not a biblical scholar so perhaps I've misunderstood Jesus' teachings.





:shrug:

[Deja Q]

33. What sort of booze did he drink last night? I want some too:

Man. From sports teams to sick politicians to that idiot lady last night who said it was God who engeinnered events so her Iraq-stationed hubby could come home after being shot by an Iraqi, with the bullet going through his foot/leg and grazing a grenade that did not go off. Yup, God engineered all that so he could be home for today. :eyes:

God exists but God stays out of our lives because God wants us to be able to do Godly things to each other.

Want peace? Don't let ANY relgious fanatics run carte blanche - on either side.

[many a good man]

34. Jesus, as usual, refused to comment publicly on the Pope's remarks

Inside sources reveal he just threw his hands up in the air and stormed out of the room shaking his head...

:shrug:

[VegasWolf]

74. but, the Holy Ghost said that the pope did an excellent job! n/t

[The Zanti Regent]

37. God wrote off humanity years ago.

Just look at what is done in his name...

[koopie57]

42. I understand the negative feelings towards the Pope

but I do remember the days when people respected one another enough to keep ugly thoughts to themselves about things that were important to others. And especially the Pope. I remember when Sinead O'conner (sp) ripped the picture of the Pope up, even though I could understand why she hated the Pope, people still felt it went a step too far.

I don't know, but there is nothing wrong with listening to others, responding respectfully if you disagree. Knee jerks responses tit for tat aren't going to make anything better except for momentary "gotchas".

[happynewyear]

44. well I respect the Pope

I do not necessarily agree with all of what the pope says, but when it came to Iraq I was proud to be a member of the Catholic church.

You are right, it is very easy to throw out a simple "bash" at someone to be ugly. And on this day, Christmas day, I find it very UGLY indeed.

Enough said.

[0007]

51. About the boys left behind?

[Tansy_Gold]

112. I believe part of the atmosphere on a discussion board such as DU

is that one may encounter opinions with which one does not agree and one is expected to be prepared for this.

Political correctness -- meaning, saying only nice things about that which one finds utterly abhorrent -- really doesn't have much place here, and I think those who expect it are only trying to protect themselves from painful introspection.

There are many on the left, which means there are many here on DU, who have little tolerance for, little use for, and indeed little respect for organized religion, especially of the conservative christian variety.

If you don't like the heat, stay out of the sacristy.

[AngryOldDem]

118. There is a difference, though

I can disagree with a particular belief, but I can respect that belief and those who practice it. I can disagree with a religion, yet not hurl insults at it or mock its leaders, as well as those who practice it.

Since when has basic, common civility -- in other words, simple manners -- fallen under the guise of PC?

If such behavior were directed toward any other group besides Christianity and Catholicism, the hue and cry against it would be loud and long. We all know that.

I find the name-calling, etc., to be juvenile, and well below the discourse that I expect from those who consider themselves to be "liberal and enlightened." It makes us look no better than those on the right whom we constantly decry for their narrow-mindedness and intolerance.

[Chicago Democrat]

46. Jesus says 'shove it' to humanity in response!

:0

[VegasWolf]

47. Well, I was born and raised catholic, but it did not take long for

me to realize that their teachings were absurd, in the Sartre
philosophical sense. I wonder why so many christians are bothered
about critiques on their religion, after all it is an institution
created by men and therefore prone to error and confusion. Even
Jesus was voted that he was a deity by men. I am not insecure when
people attack atheism any more than if someone attacked me for
drinking milk. There is way too much religion being promoted
in these days, and I feel it is critical to provide a counter
balancing point of view.

[Gregorian]

49. Drivethrough Jesus- Now taking orders!

Would you like a side of harmony to go with your peace? Cessation of all war will cost extra. We have a special on love today. If you get the free-from-sickness, you get the eternal life for free.

Has anyone ever thought of telling the Pope that this isn't Jesus's world. I think he let Satan take the reigns. So he might as well be pleading with Satan. But I doubt it would do him much better, as I don't think either of them take orders.

[sonicx]

55. I believe that God may exist but...

he lets the world run on autopilot. Praying won't bring peace any faster (if at all).

[FizzFuzz]

57. when people pray to a deity outside themselves, what they are really

what they are really asking for is Someone Else to come down and change things while they continue behaving in the same ways they always have.

same as it ever was, same as it ever was.

I truly believe that as liberal/progressives, we are on the enlightened track, which is, looking realistically at circumstances and responding responsibly and compassionately. This is whether we are Buddhists, CAtholics, Jews or Atheists. I think "being with god", or achieving enlightenment, or however one wants to word it, is simply responding reasonably and hopefully to reality. Simple, but not easy.

[2Design]

56. we need to go higher up than jesus - we need God's help

the God of all the people - no matter what their religion - that one God is who has to help us

[lumpy]

58. The Pope is looking out

of the wrong end of the telescope.

[The Magistrate]

60. That Is Very Apt, Ms. Lumpy

He would do a good deal better, from his own points of belief in the world as it is today, to implore human beings not to abandon Christ....

[Old Mouse]

65. That is what he does on a daily basis.

The whole point of the organization, really. Non-stop recruiting.

[bpilgrim]

90. Empires Prefer a Baby and the Cross to the Adult Jesus

posted by IndianaGreen Donating Sat Dec-25-04 12:17 AM

Published on Friday, December 24, 2004 by the Guardian/UK
Empires Prefer a Baby and the Cross to the Adult Jesus
From Constantine to Bush, power has needed to stifle a revolutionary message

by Giles Fraser

Every Sunday in church, Christians recite the Nicene Creed. "Who for us and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures." It's the official summary of the Christian faith but, astonishingly, it jumps straight from birth to death, apparently indifferent to what happened in between.

Nicene Christianity is the religion of Christmas and Easter, the celebration of a Jesus who is either too young or too much in agony to shock us with his revolutionary rhetoric. The adult Christ who calls his followers to renounce wealth, power and violence is passed over in favor of the gurgling baby and the screaming victim. As such, Nicene Christianity is easily conscripted into a religion of convenience, with believers worshipping a gagged and glorified savior who has nothing to say about how we use our money or whether or not we go to war.

Christianity became the official religion of the Roman empire with the conversion of the emperor Constantine in 312, after which the church began to back pedal on the more radical demands of the adult Christ. The Nicene Creed was composed in 325 under the sponsorship of Constantine. It was Constantine who decided that December 25 was to be the date on which Christians were to celebrate the birth of Christ and it was Constantine who ordered the building of the Church of the Nativity at Bethlehem. Christmas - a festival completely unknown to the early church - was invented by the Roman emperor. And from Constantine onwards, the radical Christ worshipped by the early church would be pushed to the margins of Christian history to be replaced with the infinitely more accommodating religion of the baby and the cross.

The adult Jesus described his mission as being to "preach good news to the poor, to proclaim release to the captives and to set at liberty those who are oppressed". He insisted that the social outcast be loved and cared for, and that the rich have less chance of getting into heaven than a camel has of getting through the eye of a needle. Jesus set out to destroy the imprisoning obligations of debt, speaking instead of forgiveness and the redistribution of wealth. He was accused of blasphemy for attacking the religious authorities as self-serving and hypocritical.

In contrast, the Nicene religion of the baby and the cross gives us Christianity without the politics. The Posh and Becks nativity scene is the perfect tableau into which to place this Nicene baby, for like the much-lauded celebrity, this Christ is there to be gazed upon and adored - but not to be heard or heeded. In a similar vein, modern evangelical choruses offer wave upon wave of praise to the name of Jesus, but offer little political or economic content to trouble his adoring fans.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1224-08.htm

discuss here...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x93567

peace

[The Magistrate]

92. Quite True, My Friend

Speaking of Christianity in particular, and not of religious faith and belief as general concepts, the real problems is that self-proclaimed believers do not follow the founder's teachings anywhere near close enough.

One of my personal favorite arch-reactionaries, Mr. Chesterton, said it quite well: "Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and gone untried."

[FlaGranny]

59. Some shameful

responses to your thread.

"The faithful were told to pray for Christians, Muslims and Jews in the Holy Land, so they could one day live in peaceful coexistence." = I can empathize with that sentiment.

[sonicx]

70. Sure, but people have been praying for that for decades...

when's it gonna happen?

[Malva Zebrina]

67. Prayer

just pray and it will all be taken care of. No need to do anything at all. Pray for the Muslims? Iwonder what the Muslims are praying for? I think they are praying that their god overtakes Bush's god and wins back their country in Iraq.

Starving people cannot subsist on prayer. They need food. They need health care--and women need to have their particular needs met, before they birth a child who has AIDS. But, condoms are sinful, so pray that these women come to that realization and are forced to carry through a pregnancy and promote AIDS.

Prayer is nice--does little but keep more people from outright condemnation of evil. Just pray--for your OWN selfish sanity and let the god sort them out--according to his will, of course.

What are the prayers for? To win the war? I am sure lots of people are praying so that we win the war in Iraq and against the boogey man of terrorism. I am sure that many are praying for those people to be killed and conquored. It is only right that they be killed.

All goes to point out that lots of people pray, all for different reasons. I am sure those who prayed that Bush be elected are certain that their prayers were answered. Right?

And now they are certain that a god is certainly listening to them and granting them their petition. Sure. And it looks as if THEIR prayers were answered. And the Pope's prayers or those who follow his directions were NOT.

Splain please and I don't want to hear that a god works in mysterious ways, because that is pure poppycock.


What is needed here, and what was not forthcoming, is an outright condemnation of the policies of an evil man,a war criminal, George Bush, and a country, the USA, that has lost it's soul, andm what is needed is some concrete action to put this insane maniac, away in a mental hospital.

It was not done in Nazi Germany by the Pope and it was not done here with this message either.

[onager]

69. I can explain it!

The only difference between prayer and carrying a rabbit's foot is a three-legged rabbit.

[NNN0LHI]

71. Don begs Pope not to ignore the genocide in Iraq n/t

[despairing optimist]

72. And Jesus laughed. "Whaddya kiddin' me?"

[Behind the Aegis]

73. Perhaps...

he should have asked humanity not to abandon Jesus (or at least his teachings)! I am sick of people like this that expect G-d or Jesus or whomever, to swoop down and take care of all their problems! If they acted more like their Savior, there would be MUCH fewer problems in the world! But, they are too busy condemning others, and asking for forgiveness for their own sins. This applies to all fanatical religious (and non-religious) types.

[VegasWolf]

75. To make his point crystal clear, he should have mentioned awol

directly. n/t

[progressivebydesign]

76. The POPE has abandoned humanity!!

He allowed his minions to help elect George Bush.. when George Bush is the one almost single-handedly destroying hundreds of thousands of lives here and abroad. The organized churches have no place in my life.. a bunch of OLD WHITE MEN telling all of us what we should and shouldn't do.

[Tinoire]

78. Sorry. He most certainy did not

He spoke out againstBush, against he war, against the materialism being pushed by NAFTA-lovers.

No one listened.

Don't blame the Pope because too many Americans are more interested in their globalized than they are in the Pope's message. The Pope's message was was long represented, posted at DU and I won't allow anyone to distort the message he sent against Bush.

These last 2 elections, the Vatican sent the very clear message of : DO NOT VOTE FOR BUSH" to Americans. Do not blame the Pope if the Coca-cola education prevailed. His message was very clear. Unfortunately it was drowned out by the hoopla of priest scandals that played too many on the Left like a Stradvarius.



Peace

[aikido15]

83. You are so right

Religion is fear mongering and fear mongering is controlling. They can keep their religion with all their dos and don'ts. I am not going to wait around for heaven or hell, I will make my own destiny, thank you very much!

[AngryOldDem]

88. Nice bit of circular logic in your post, here....

>>>He allowed his minions to help elect George Bush.. when George Bush is the one almost single-handedly destroying hundreds of thousands of lives here and abroad. The organized churches have no place in my life.. a bunch of OLD WHITE MEN telling all of us what we should and shouldn't do.>>>


Okay, by your reasoning, the Pope should have told the United States bishops to tell their followers that they were not to vote for Bush under any circumstance. That's the meaning I get from "he allowed his minions to help elect George Bush." Then you say that organized religion has no place in your life, because it's a bunch of old white men telling others what to do. Yet again, it seems that is exactly what you seem to have wanted the Pope to do this election year -- direct Catholics not to vote for Bush.

So which is it? Are people free to make up their own minds, or do they need a bunch of old white men to do it for them?

There were only a handful of reactionary bishops who made a show over the election this year. The rest, like the Vatican, were very circumspect in their opinions. You are, by the way, not obligated to listen to anything these old white men say. That is called having free will.

[VegasWolf]

77. How will this help? Jesus has been dead for a long, long time. n/t

[AngryOldDem]

89. So that means His message is dead, too?

We can therefore learn nothing from what He taught?

[VegasWolf]

93. Never said that. These people are expecting a lot more than a dead

man's message.

[AngryOldDem]

114. Even though the message is still valid?

That message allows some of us to help those who are in most need of it.

[Forkboy]

80. too late

[Massachusetts]

101. Yup

[antonialee839]

96. I had my suspicions that Jesus abandoned

humanity the first time he allowed that lying,war mongering, excuse for a human being to run our country into the ground. My suspicions
were confirmed this past election when the sorry excuse was elected with the full backing of the Catholic Church here in the USA. Seems like Satan is running the show these days.

[autorank]

97. Yeah, well Pope, you abandoned the USA w/"right to life" and never

reminded American Catholics of your wonderful (I'm not being ironic) social justice positions. That's right, the right to life people elected George f'ing Bush, thank you very much. Your crowing achievement. Oops, forgot to tell them the rest of my respect humanity message.

[Bo]

100. ....lolololollolololol

the fool ask what?........I lose my mind

[Massachusetts]

103. JESUS WHO?

[aikido15]

105. LOL...that's probably what the Pope...

is saying..."Jesus Who?" Does the Pope even know where he is anymore? I mean come on! The guy can barely hold his head up.

[AngryOldDem]

117. Advanced Parkinson's will do that to a person

That, however, is no reflection on his mental faculties, which are said to be still quite sharp.

[Disturbed]

106. Can anyone imagine Jesus being comfortable...

hanging out at the Vatican among the splendor and millions of dollars in treasures? Would he wear those tacky clothes and silly hats?

[Massachusetts]

113. Excellent Point!

O8)

[sakabatou]

107. It seems that Jesus already has abandoned us

His teachings have been obscured, twisted and used for bloodshed. It's a dark world today.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

110. That's my Pope!

I'm with him on that. We need Jesus now more than ever.

And the prayers of he Blessed Virgin as well.

[VegasWolf]

116. Should'a gone after the father and holy ghost too! I would'a asked all

three deities if it were me.