Prisoners were experimented on (say lawyers of French Gitmo detainees)

[Minstrel Boy]

Prisoners were experimented on

BY JEAN-GUY ALLARD—Special for Granma International—Dec 24

AFTER Australian David Hicks’ horrific revelations concerning the torture he suffered in the Guantánamo concentration camp, including mysterious injections with substances of unknown origin, the lawyer for two of the French detainees: Nizar Sassi and Mourad Benchellali, released in July, recently announced in Paris that his clients suspect that they were also the victims of experiments in one of the most sinister interrogation centers at the US military base.

In the latest edition of the French magazine Le Nouvel Observateur, lawyer Jacques Debray reported that Sassi and Benchellali, who were also forced to take suspect medication, are now wondering if they were victims of experiments carried out by their torturers.

...

As far back as last August, the prestigious British medical journal The Lancet disclosed that doctors and other health professionals were complicit actors in the torture that took place in Abu Ghraib as well as in Afghanistan and that they were collaborating on the design and practice of psychological and physically coercive interrogation.

...

In emails recently received by the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), the FBI has involuntarily confirmed the horror lurking behind the bars of the cells installed there by the administration at the illegal US military base in Guantánamo. “I have seen a detainee seated on the floor of an interrogation room, wrapped in an Israeli flag, with loud music and flashes from an stroboscope,” an agent told his superiors in a email dated last July 30.

http://www.granma.cu/ingles/2004/diciembre/vier24/1guanta-i.html

[imenja]

1. Any other sources/ papers reporting this story?

[Minstrel Boy]

2. As stated in the second paragraph:

"In the latest edition of the French magazine Le Nouvel Observateur...."

[imenja]

8. Unfortunately my French isn't great

I was hoping for something in English. I'll do a web search.

[neweurope]

3. I've seen iit mentioned a number of times in German and French

sources but unfortunately I didn't copy the links. I don't know how trustworthy these sources were - but since it has happened in the past (to Blacks, Indians and other underdogs) I wouldn't put it past them.

[katinmn]

4. why don't they just ask Gonzalez?

they've never held the little creep accountable for anything.

[TahitiNut]

5. Where's Dr. Mengele when the regime needs him?

:puke:

[pretzel4gore]

7. shrieking, in hell

suffering eternal torment. the hardest part of it for mengele types, i believe, is the realization that it was all for no reason, served no end.....achieved absolutely nothing but their own very real suffering(?????)
to be stupid, on the one life and death issue that matters....my, how that must torture the bushevik pigs

[NYC]

9. Apparently, in Guantanamo.

So many similarities. I often wonder how many people are in camps that we don't know about.

[0007]

22. Josef Mengele, Angel of Death is now working for the U.S.

[atreides1]

25. A Little Historical Perspective

Mengele got most of his ideas and theories from the US. It seems that prior to the Nazis coming to power in Germany, some good white Christian American doctors, in some cases, with the okay of government, were studying eugenics, from 1910-1940.

Check out www.eugenicsarchive.org

Here's one statement "Elements of the American eugenics movement were models for the Nazis, whose radical adaptation of eugenics culminated in the Holocaust."

So Dr. Mengele and his cohorts just adapted what the US provided.

[The Magistrate]

26. You Will Have To Do Better Than That, Count, By A Long Sight

The idea of selective breeding is endemic to humankind; the institution of any hereditary aristocracy, which is found at the basis of all complex societies, is its earliest reflection. Western European scientific and social thought was permeated with the idea even before the mid-nineteenth century, and any claim it is a product of the U.S. alone is risible.

The principle basis for the racial practices of the Nazis was a delusional "cosmic history" off-shoot of Pan-German ideologies, a very popular strain of thought among Germans, particularly those outside the Kaiser's newly inaugurated Reich, in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centurties. It had much in common with elements of popular occultism that drew on bastadized concepts derived from early Gnostic views, and at its most basic construction, conceived an absolute antipathy between spiritual and material, identifying one strain of human-kind with the former, and one strain with the latter, viewing history as an eternal conflict between the two, and prophesying the final triumph of one or the other would usher in either an era of spiritual light or material darkness....

[jdj]

32. sounds familiar

sort of like "the sons of God" mating with the "daughters of man" in the bible.

Sperm, sperm, it's all about the sperm.

[HereSince1628]

6. LaNouvelObs has a website, but I can't read French

maybe someone who does could visit the site and get a direct link.

http://permanent.nouvelobs.com

[NYC]

10. Direct link to French article:

http://archquo.nouvelobs.com/cgi/idxlist2?a=art&aaaammjj=200412&aaaammjj2=20041225&amjg=200412&num=000000733&m1=Debray&m2=&m3=&rubrique=&rubrique_sci=&amj1=&amj2=&host=http://permanent.nouvelobs.com/&debut=20041210

...sur les conditions de détention dans la base américaine de Cuba, et affirme que ses clients, qui étaient contraints de prendre des médicaments suspects, se demandent s'ils n'ont pas été victimes d'expérimentations...

... ils ont décrit des scènes proches de ce qui s'est passé à Abou Ghraib...

...Ils ont aussi eu des injections, surtout au début de leur détention à Guantanamo. Ils ne savaient pas quel genre de médicaments on leur donnait, mais tous deux ont affirmé qu'un de leur co-détenus avait été couvert de boutons après avoir pris un de ces médicaments, et plus largement ils se demandaient s'ils n'étaient pas victimes d'expérimentations.

Les fioles qui contenaient les médicaments portaient des numéros, et un médecin passait les voir pour leur demander quels effets avaient les médicaments...

I picked out some highlights from the "7 questions" answered by lawyer, Debray, but no, I can't translate.

[HereSince1628]

11. Great! Thanks. Now it will be a day with the French dictionary...

[NYC]

13. Don't do that. Use a computer translation.

I lost my translation links, but you can do a computer translation, then think a lot about what could they have possibly meant. Computer translations are too verbatim to read smoothly, but they give you a general idea.

[NYC]

14. Entire webpage translated to English.

Go to this site: Never mind. Can't link to it.

Prisoners Guinea Pigs in Guantanamo?

Excerpts:

... After the declaration under oath of an Australian prisoner making state of ill treatments, it reconsiders the conditions of detention in the American base of Cuba, and affirms that its customers, who were constrained to take suspect drugs, wonder whether they were not victims of experiments...

...Yes, they described scenes close to what occurred to Abou Ghraib...

...This sentence had indeed escaped with the censure, and Nizar assure me the catch of these drugs. Once, following the catch of one of these drugs, it lost consciousness and had the impression to have remained one or two days unconscious.

They also had injections, especially at the beginning of their detention with Guantanamo. They did not know which kind of drugs one gave them, but both affirmed that one of their fellows-prisoner had been covered with buttons* after having taken one of these drugs, and more largely they wondered whether they were not victims of experiments.

The flasks which contained the drugs carried numbers, and a doctor passed to see them to ask them which effects had the drugs...

If you want more excerpts, let me know.


*Button = bouton =
Bud, pimple, button, stud, knob, and a few others. In this translation, I vote for "pimple".

[HereSince1628]

16. Thanks... n/t

[R Hickey]

29. Prisoner had been covered with "buttons" ... or dioxin pimples?

Maybe our own doctors were experimenting with dioxin soup recipies. I bet the "Gitmo cream of Ukranium-mushroom soup" is delicious.

[Ms. Clio]

34. O my god--that sounds all too possible n/t

[area51]

12. free translation

I know the translation isn't perfect, but one possibility is to use the "Babelfish" translation engine:

Babelfish

[leQ]

15. google will do it too (eom)

.

[HereSince1628]

17. Thanks...n/t

[HereSince1628]

18. Thanks...nt

[Gold Metal Flake]

19. Does anybody really think you can just vote these motherfuckers out?

??

[NYC]

20. No.

Perhaps the faces will change, but that will be their choice, and done for appearances only. They won't be as blatant as "President for Life Duvalier".

[mitchtv]

24. once word gets out, they'll sweep the "red states"

with 75%+ plurality. As some one here said * could sacrifice babies on CSPAN, and they'd elect him again

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shraby]

23. I'd read about it before. n/t

[Barrett808]

27. And to all, a good night. n/t

[Ms. Clio]

28. The Japanese performed atrocities similar to Mengele's in China

From 1933 to 1945, Japanese doctors in China performed thousands of cruel experiments on Chinese, Russians, Mongolians, and Koreans and killed all of them. At Unit 731 alone, at least 3,000 people were tortured and murdered. In addition, similar human experiments and vivisections were done at four branches of Unit 731, four other "Boeki Kyusui Bu" (Anti-Epidemic Water Supply and Purification Bureaus), "Gunju Boeki Sho" (Anti-Epizootic Protection Units) including Unit 100, the Manchuria Medical School, and army hospitals (1).

(snip)

Many prisoners were killed during trials of nonstandardized, unestablished, and unusual "treatments." Many kinds of vaccines in the development stage were tried directly on prisoners, with no prior trials on animals.

(snip)

But how could such a mass murder by human experimentation be possible? I think there are at least four explanations.

First, it cannot be denied that it was wartime, although Japan did not formally declare war against China. Since 1931, Japan invaded and militarily ruled parts of China. Japan's rule was known to be very cruel. Chinese people who were forced to work for the Japanese factories or suspected spies and resisters were treated violently or murdered routinely. The murders by human experiments were only one part of a huge massacre by the Japanese army. In addition, since victory in the war (especially over the United States and the United Kingdom) had become a supreme goal, Japanese people believed everything was justifiable if it was done for the sake of the country and "Tenno Heika" (the emperor).

Second, Japanese people at the time looked down upon people of other countries. Even now, as Japan is an isolated island country, there are only a few chances to communicate with foreigners. In addition, eugenic and racist ideologies were prevalent in Japan, as well as in western countries. Consequently, most Japanese then had prejudice against people in other Asian and European countries and discriminated against them. They thought Chinese, Korean, Mongolian, Russian, American, English, etc. were beings that need not be treated humanely, especially in wartime.

Moreover, the Japanese militarist government at the time feared communism. Therefore, persons who were suspected and arrested as spies of the USSR or communist resisters were tortured to death. This happened sometimes even in the Japanese homeland, but all the more and oftener in China.

Third, those who were arrested by the Kwantung Army Military Police as suspected spies or resisters were usually executed without trial. They were beings that must be killed. So researchers justified the murders by human experiments and vivisection with the excuse that it was better to utilize them for research and getting precious data than merely to execute them. This is the same rationale as that used by Nazi doctors who performed cruel experiments on prisoners in the concentration camps.

http://www.biol.tsukuba.ac.jp/~macer/EJ106/ej106c.htm

There's more, truly horrific stuff at the web site. Could Guantanomo ever become such a charnel house? Nothing seems beyond the realm of possibility, now.

[bpilgrim]

31. fallujah is very similar to nanking

GEACPS == PNAC
(Great East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere <-> Project for the New American Century)


The ceremonial entrance of the Japanese forces into the city of Nanking. - lIFE

the japanese even used the 'legal' term ILLEGAL COMBATANTS to deal with their chinese 'insurgents'

will history be as harsh with us?

only if we loose...


Japanese aircraft bombed south Shanghai Station Aug.28,1937.
About 200 people in the waiting room were dead or wounded by the bombing. A crying baby was left alone after the bombing. - "Life" Oct.4,1937

peace

[Ms. Clio]

33. I hadn't thought of that

But the comparison is all too apt.

And I do believe that history will judge the U.S. as harshly, although the real histories of this war of imperial aggression won't be written for at least 50 or 100 years.

[NYC]

30. Ten Guantanamo Detainees Complain of Abuse. (AFP Yahoo)

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1504&ncid=1504&e=16&u=/afp/20041226/ts_afp/usattacksprisonersguantanamo_041226045758

... They also left them in freezing temperatures and stifling heat, subjected them to repeated, prolonged rectal exams and paraded them naked around the prison as military police snapped pictures, the paper said.

A group of released British detainees claim that several young prisoners told them they were raped and sexually violated after guards took them to isolated sections of the prison, according to the report.

They said an Algerian man was forced to watch a video supposedly showing two detainees dressed in orange, one sodomizing the other, and was told that it would happen to him if he didn't cooperate, The Post said.

More at link.

[Phelan]

35. Very credible source

Go to their main page,
Cuban economy blooming with 5% growth,
News from Miami, the Terrorists paradise
etc etc etc
I'm looking for the article on Castro running a 4.2 40' and having a 42" vertical as projected number 1 pick of the NFL draft right now

Show me an article in the BBC, the Guardian, Der Spiegel, Focus, Stern or Le Monde...and I'll believe you