Ohio Recount Ends, Shows Votes Closer

[420inTN]

Mods: I did a quick search, but didn't see this posted. Please delete/lock if a dupe.

From: AP
13 minutes ago

TOLEDO, Ohio - Election officials finished the presidential recount in Ohio on Tuesday, with the final tally shaving a few hundred votes off President Bush's six-figure margin of victory in the state that gave him a second term.

The recount shows Bush winning Ohio by 118,457 votes over John Kerry, according to unofficial results provided to The Associated Press by the 88 counties. Lucas County, where Toledo is located, was the last to report its results Tuesday.

The state had earlier declared Bush the winner by 118,775 votes and planned to adjust its totals to reflect the recount later this week.

The Kerry campaign supported the recount, but said it did not expect the tally to change the election winner. Supporters of the recount, requested by two minor party candidates, said they wanted to make sure that every valid vote was counted.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=536&e=1&u=/ap/20041228/ap_on_re_us/ohio_vote

[CyberChas]

1. Was this a COMPLETE recount?

Or was it just the "randomly selected" (ha ha) precincts?

Was this the FULL hand re-count of EVERY ballot in EVERY precinct in the state?

Just curious if anybody knows. The Yahoo story was (as usual) lacking in any good facts or URLs to reference.

[420inTN]

2. "according to unofficial results provided to The AP by the 88 counties..."

I would say that it was a full (but unofficial) recount. The counties gave AP their tallies. From the story, and headline, one assumes that it is each county's recount, however, they could be misleading.

[no_vote_no_count]

3. It was the 3%

There hasn't been a full hand recount of every precinct in OH yet, and may never be for this past election unless something comes of the Arnebeck or GLIB/Kerry suits.

I think that one county (can't remember which one) may have gone ahead and done the whole county, but that was the only one.

The recount was basically a farce. It's not surprising that few anomalies were uncovered as it was tightly controlled and manipulated by Blackwell from the start.

[cmd]

4. 3% hand count

Followed by a full machine count. I was an observer. We ended up losing three votes in my county.

[no_vote_no_count]

6. Yes, but the machine recount

only counted the 3% that was hand counted. There hasn't been a full statewide recount of all precincts in all counties yet--neither hand nor machine.

[cmd]

20. In our county there was a full machine recount

Two precincts were hand counted, machine counted and when a one vote descrepancy was found; hand counted three more times followed by another machine count. The decrepancy came when we counted as an overvote a card that had a punch in a hole that the machine was not programmed to read. After the problem was identified, we handcounted the problem precinct two more times and machine counted it to verify. Then the entire county was machine counted.

That is how we handled it. Other counties may have been done differently.

[420inTN]

5. The story has been updated...

"Witnesses who watched workers count ballots by hand and machine said the effort provided assurance that boards were accurately counting ballots."

So, I take that it is a combination of machine and hand recounting.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

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[Straight Shooter]

9. There's a funny smell in the air.

Try not to be so happy about it.

[bobbyboucher]

12. Aren't they transparent?

They think they are funny too. If they only knew the consequences of their delusion.

[jdj]

14. people are saying the precincts were handpicked...

they picked precincts that they felt would most closely resemble Bush's statewide margin (i.e. heavily repuke). If Kerry gained even under these circumstances, think what that says about the statewide results as a whole...

[Cobalt Violet]

38. 1000 votes on a 3% vote hand count.

Wow! Don't you think we should demand a full recount. And if th GOP asswipes hadn't engineer the long lines in poor and minority precints, we clearly won.

FULL RECOUNT NOW! :bounce:

[bluestateguy]

8. Mine is a minority opinion here

But I am not convinced that there was enough skullduggery to change the outcome of the race. The issue of electronic voting machines is a serious one, and we should continue to demand a verified paper trail for all votes cast in America, but I have yet to see evidence suggetsing that the outcome was rigged. Too often, people here take note of one incident of fraud and foul play, affecting a few hundred votes, and then take the next step of suggesting--without evidence-- that the entire election was riddled with fraud and foul play to such an extent that the outcome of the election would have been different.

We have to face facts: 51% of the American people are ignorant, selfish, bigoted and have a love affair with totalitarianism.

[Straight Shooter]

10. Oh, a little bit of fraud. Well, that's all right, then.

As long as the stab wound isn't fatal, go ahead and stick the knife into the heart of democracy.

Sorry, I disagree.

[Selatius]

32. He said voter fraud is an issue

He did not excuse it in the least bit. You're out of line there.

[Chicago Democrat]

11. I agree most Americans voted for Bush and that includes Ohio

probably. I wish I could be 100% sure. We need voting reform that works.

[roenyc]

13. i just heard this on air america

but the re-count was flawed. that is why they are suing. this is so rediculous. they are saying is done over and out. and kerry said they didnt expect to change the outcome.

ok, breath....whew. better, ok - keep the faith its not over. its all a lie. it was fixed.

[jdj]

16. wow.

I live in NC, upon which Dr. David Dill bestowed the honor of having the "worst election system in the country", and county after county after county was screwed up beyond belief. Gaston County's officials just got fired last week, and back a ways when all the controversy was going on Page (Gaston co. elect dir.) was asked for the documents from 2000 they were even more screwed up than the 2004 ones...I have no doubt this happened nation-wide.

I think your denial is a result of geography. I live in a red (fraud) state, in the middle of fundie belt, and I know to my marrow that this election was fraudulently altered bit by bit, county by county, by fascist fundie foot-soldiers.

Thank your lucky stars you are in a blue state.

[sampsonblk]

24. Yep, let's move on from this embarrassment

We lost. Horrible candidate. Awful campaign. We just lost. And that's it.

We had a boatload of outside groups helping our cause. Loads of money. Everyone pitched in, and we still got beat by a few million votes. Time to lick the wounds and vow to never make these mistakes again.

[Gman]

26. A Yellow Dog could have beat Bush this year

were it not for MB Cahill self serving bullshit.

[SKKY]

15. I think the pickup by just doing 3% should be enough...

...to justify a FULL RECOUNT of ALL votes. It's almost as though someone is afraid to scratch the surface on this.

[jdj]

17. especially when they picked precincts they knew were a sure thing.

[LiberalHeart]

21. Ohio did recount all the votes....

In every county, precincts adding up to 3% of the county's votes were counted by hand. The total obtained from that hand count was then compared to the total resulting from a machine count of those same ballots. If the totals matched, the remaining votes in that county were then counted by machine. If they did not match, the whole county had to be hand counted (which seldom, if ever, happened).

However, Ohio law demands that the precincts amounting to 3% in a given county are to be selected randomly. This is not what was done, with perhaps an exception or two statewide. The precincts were pre-selected by the Board of Elections (which are staffed by folks from both parties). There was much complaining about the pre-selection, and Conyers is asking for an explanation for why Ohio law was ignored in that respect.

Also, there were many instances where the hand count and the machine count of the 3% did not match, but that did not lead to a full hand count (again, a violation of what Ohio law demands). Instead, the mismatch was "fixed". For example, a faulty ballot might have jammed a machine, so that ballot was removed and a new ballot was created -- one that would run smoothly thru the machine. People from both parties witnessed the creation of the new ballot and made sure it matched the original.

If you go to the Cobb site you can read the reports from observers and coordinators involved in the recounts throughout Ohio.

Bottom line: Ohio law was not followed. But that may all be beside the point because, if this election was hijacked, it was probably hijacked at some other level of the process, not the counting process. In the machine software, for example. If the legal challenge that was filed against Ohio's election bears fruit, the ballots and the machines will be subject to forensic examination and all ballots will be hand counted. It's probably a long shot to hope for that, but I continue to do so.

Edited to fix typos.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

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[robbedvoter]

18. Is a little fraud more justifiable than a hell of a lot of fraud?

Ukraine, Romania got new elections.
If this was about basebal, it would have been scrapped and redone already.

[0rganism]

19. If Kerry gained a thousand votes from a 3% recount...

...then he should damn well be asking to recount the state.

We're talking 33,000 votes here. It might not be enough to change the election, but it could adequately make the point about the role of crappy election machines in tight races.

[Mountainman]

22. How did Montgomery county vote? I left there in 1982 because it was

getting too fundie.

[Supersedeas]

23. Gore lost by how many votes in a larger state...but the Media's got peep

for follow-up on Democracy in America.

No recount in Fla.

Let's resort the electronic blips in OH and ignore the hundreds of votes lost in the....errrr....electronic system.

[dolstein]

27. The difference may as well be a million votes

I wish more people around here had a basic understanding of statistics and some familiarity with electoral history. The fact is that recounts rarely change the outcome of an election. The Washington state gubernatorial race appears, for the time being, to be just such an example, but Rossi never led by more than a few hundred votes, and his lead was only 42 votes after the machine recount. A 118,000 vote margin is HUGE HUGE HUGE in recount terms. So those people who are still whining about Kerry not doing more about the vote in Ohio need to get back in touch with reality.

Is it conceivable that the results in Ohio would have been different if core Democratic precints had more voting machines, more poll workers, and shorter lines? Sure, it's possible. I'm sure there are plenty of examples of people waiting in line who eventually gave up and went home. But there's nothing that can be done now to recover those lost votes.

And sorry, all this talk about election fraud and vote tampering is just that -- talk -- until somebody comes up with some good, hard evidence. And no, those preliminary exit polls are anything but hard evidence.

[Child_Of_Isis]

28. The recount was just a big show.

They won't get me in 08. Neither will I give my money nor my heart, nor my time. Not again. Not EVER again. The dems should have taken care of the problems before the election. I don't think I can forgive them for this.

[FreakinDJ]

29. What did you expect...hand picked precincts by Blackwell

Voter intemidation, supression of Black voters

The problem wasn't just E-voting. The Bush cabal used many tactics to sway the vote and hacked voting software was only 1 of them.

America should be outragged

Some drunken coke snorting shrub can destroy the very system so many Americans have given their life defending.

Support the Troops my ass..............

Show respect for those that have gone before you and given their life to defend this democracy

COUNT THE VOTES

IT'S AMERICA STUPID...not Russia

[MasonJar]

30. By law the recount was supposed to be done first on 6%, and if

there was a big discrepancy then a full count. Allegedly the state did not want a full recount and so chose precincts that would most probably reflect the original count. or so I think.

[LiberalHeart]

31. Just 3%, not 6% -- per Ohio law. N/T

[JMS825]

33. Im lost

if there was a change in votes in 3% then they have to do a full recount well Kerry gained 330 votes over Bush aint that a change? Yet they refuse to do a full recount eventhough it was paid for?

[420inTN]

34. I'm with you.

I no longer have any idea of what's going on in Ohio, nor if they are following the law. From the previous posts in this thread, it looks like "they" are just making it up as they go, instead of following the law.

[PATRICK]

40. How soon we forget

If you remember the excruciating attrition in Florida 2000 it is no surprise that the slicker more varied and invisible game in Ohio yields grudging small corrections for Kerry- who did not even put up the pretense of a fight. instead the new crew of diverse second parties ran into the swamp.

Votes were lost even before election day and the Kerry camp was too quiet. A winning margin simply never got recorded in the polls. But if you still crunch the probabilities and the desperate chicanery involved in that big Bush margin you have to believe that machines and ballots and totals and records were all manipulated to various degrees. Variety is the spice of death. Of course, the glitches, chaos, lockdowns went on all during election day and even there some said that wasn't so bad because the Kerry lawyers fought off some and got people provisional ballots- which also were not properly counted. Palast got shut out of punditry and media handily too.

Kerry may have come to the belated conclusion there were no retrievable ballots left to cobble together a possible victory from a dug in enemy establishment. The silence on the matter was not refreshing,. Although I might add Gore also was silent on the issue while he tired- a bit naively- to play the game when it was still conceivable it could be beaten. Conceivable but not really possible if they used a little foresight on the ultimate judges of the "contest" aspect. Then Gore buried the fraud.

Kerry has buried the recount and fraud is descending into the murk at the moment. If one were to compare this to Waterloo, one might compare Kerry to Napoleon- on that day- playing to the enemy's hand with the old warhorses, conceding every advantage and sending more people straight ahead to the slaughter. And Napoleon should have won that day anyway- had his "votes" in the second army ever shown up. Wellington wasn't that smart either, nor all-powerful. In a battle of stubborn stupidity someone always comes up short.

Yes, we look just like we did when questioning the Intel and the intentions and the wisdom leading up to the Iraq War. Facts, authorities, etc. Intimidating just to KNOW the truth and not have the goods to slam down the horror show leading us to disaster. Without that stuff we could not stop the catastrophe and no one gives any credits to good "guessers" who simply stuck to truth and honesty- and oh yeah- values. The same is true in 2004. The election was visibly gamed and stolen- along with the evidence and the will of the candidate to contest it. It was predictable and we have enough smoke and fire to stick by it, sure as there IS global warming and Bush is a greedy dolt. Evidence? No, and I couldn't get any on Capone either. The FBI could but now they work for the mob.

Let's separate the eggs before they get scrambled. Signs of a Bush loss and theft abound. Actual fraud and vote suppression and a rigged media ARE in evidence. The EASY path, the "Gore temptation" was long ago strewn with GOP landmines- namely trying to recount what was left in the digital rubble and the overvotes and undervotes etc. etc. and the HAVA joke that left people like Blackwell counting the eggs in the henhouse.

The more we keep hoping that easy path will just clear up on its own and prove us right, the harder will be the ultimate path to truth and victory along the last ways remaining. We do not have to concede that Bush won when the evidence and theory to show HOW he did better than in 2000 keeps mutating under the heat lamps of reason. We don't need Kerry or a Kerry victory to know the awful truth. We don't need to kick around the DNC in other ways to get off the subject of a stolen election. We are right. We can't prove it. We can't unseat the usurpers. We don't have a very effective political opposition party even if we could drag them in the back door.

We don't have proof that Bush won so that we should repeat the nauseating "blame the loser" game that went on after Gore 2000- and ignored the simple fact that he WON when the proof came out in an ignored whisper right on 9/11. If we have lost our nerve that doesn't mean we have to lose our mind. Even the media couldn't swallow some of its lies of necessity when the rabid XXian occupiers wanted to talibanize the end times of America.

Are we insurgents or in Saddam like hidey holes talking big? The system is in pieces and discredited. America? In our crazy quilt coalitions and in the disaffected Republicans and Democrats angry as hell with Bush, we are IT in the RW kingdom of the blind. Solutions? Make a real party or super coalition for simple democracy. Get a REAL news network going that relies on facts not on entertaining punditry to compete with clowns and hypocrites of the right. the people have neither access to the truth nor a viable party of their interests. The field is rough to plow but open and abandoned. And if the people want, the Democratic Party is just as open for principled takeover as the GOP was vulnerable to thugs, fanatics and plutocrats. That crowd will always hate the Democratic Party for its "freedoms" as much as they kick around PBS and CNN no matter how much they cravenly sellout.

[poe]

35. ohio recount ends

a few salient facts. one machine in gahanna ward 1b registered 4258 votes for g.w. where only 638 people voted.bush picked up at least 3620 votes right there.in brook park city 99.4% voted,mainly republicans.14,458 out of 14491.some turnout huh?how many thousand did g.w.pick up there?cuyahoga county 29 precincts ballots cast in excess of registered voters was a cumulative 93,136.how many did g.w. pick up there?you cannot find the puppeteers and expose their machinations if you are not allowed to look behind the curtain.a perfect example.where i monitored the recount a criteria was put into place which allowed only the precincts which registered 550 votes or more to be considered eligible for the 3% recount.the precincts which had impossibly low turnout 7%,23%,27%,etc. by the parameters of the "random" samples precluded any scrutinizing of these precincts.many poll workers stated those low turnout numbers were grossly falsified. coincidentally these low turnout numbers were in democratic precincts.another coincidence is the fact that only in heavily leaning dem. precincts were there unexplained voting machine shortages.another coincidence is the tiny fact that several of these players are watergate,iran-contra chums.the list of fraudulent activities just in ohio is long.the few examples listed above total a vote change of several thousand.far more than the official change of 318 votes for kerry.add numerous other examples,tabulator tampering etc.,but of course coincidence.no way g.w. won ohio.let us awaken from our collective torpor and get to the streets.the technocratic dictatorship is here.soft fascism.

[kc.ink]

36. the evidence IS overwhelming, so why can't Arnebeck

and the others filing the lawsuits get the verbiage correct????

eom

[daleo]

37. Who picked the precincts to recount?

If the Republicans, through Blackwell, had control over this choice, they just had to make sure that they knew where the "clean counties" were and recount them.

[HannibalBarca]

39. 118,457

Those people have a lot to answer for, I hope they truly understand the magnitude of their decision.