Fresh Details Emerge on Harsh Methods at Guantánamo

[aikido15]

Interviews with former intelligence officers and interrogators provided new details and confirmed earlier accounts of inmates being shackled for hours and left to soil themselves while exposed to blaring music or the insistent meowing of a cat-food commercial. In addition, some may have been forcibly given enemas as punishment.

While all the detainees were threatened with harsh tactics if they did not cooperate, about one in six were eventually subjected to those procedures, one former interrogator estimated. The interrogator said that when new interrogators arrived they were told they had great flexibility in extracting information from detainees because the Geneva Conventions did not apply at the base.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/01/national/01gitmo.html?th

This is soooo sick..

[DoYouEverWonder]

1. Harsh treatment?

Fuck you NYT's, it's called torture.

[Truman01]

8. What the Viet cong did was torture, this isn't even close.

I don't like it either, but overstating our case makes us look silly.

TC

[DoYouEverWonder]

10. Tell me it's not torture

when somebody forces an enema up your butt hole.

[Truman01]

11. Some people enjoy that ! But the fact of the matter is

that even your artical said that "may" have happened. Torture is what my Father went through as a POW. Torture is where they tied his arms behind his back and took a bamboo poll in the ropes and wound it tight until both of his collar bones snapped from the pressure.

Then they beat him daily so badly that he still has scars all over his body.

Don't whine to me about how someone who "may" have gotten an enema was being tortured.

TC

[DoYouEverWonder]

14. Gee, I guess we do have a common bond

my father was tortured too. Except it was by the Newark NJ police. They beat him for over 12 hours and when he still refused to sign a statement confessing to a crime he did not commit, they threatened to throw him out the window and where going to say he jumped. So don't tell me about torture, I know exactly what it looks like.

[Truman01]

16. I'm so sorry to hear that. One of the reasons I never

became a prosecutor is because of all the shit that the law does that they shouldn't. I know many policemen are good people, but the profession tends to attract those who are high on the power it gives them.

I would have loved to represent your father against people that did crap like that.

What happened? Did he get convicted off a coerced statement?

TC

[DoYouEverWonder]

17. He was completely exonerated

Fortunately he had a good lawyer and my mother got a court order to send in a photographer while my dad was still in jail.

At the trial, the judge gave an eight hour statement (took two days) about his innocence and the wrongs that the police had done to him. He sited all the times the police perjured themselves during the trial. From there the brutality case was tied up in court for over 5 years until my parents finally reached an out of court settlement. They just got to a point that they needed to put the whole thing behind them. At least, all of the police involved were reassigned to desk jobs or retired.

[Truman01]

19. That is such a great story. So few end up that well. I'm glad

your Father stood up and even more glad that the system did it's part.

8 hour statement from the JUDGE??? WOW

Thank you for sharing your story.

TC

[Is It Fascism Yet]

105. re assigned to desk jobs? thats the problem, they should be held criminal

[Is It Fascism Yet]

102. yes, the neo nazis at home are just as bad,

I also have personal knowledge of cops beating confessions out of their prisoners. For instance, working one night in the emergency room I received a patient who was a prisoner in custody of the police. He'd been badly beaten, dislocated shoulder, ear hanging off, eyes swollen shut, but the cops had an excuse for everything, it "happened during a scuffle with my night stick while he was resisting". I walked around the patient, assessing his injuries, and to my great surprise, found he had a big muddy footprint clear and square in the center of his back... so I asked the cop..."and how did he get this footprint on his back" and the cop answered, "he fell under my shoe" We pay taxes to keep these thugs in uniform on the streets? We'd be so much better off if we just had the criminals, instead of criminals plus uniformed thugs.

[TryingToWarnYou]

18. With all due respect to your father....

He doesnt have the market cornered on what torture is. What one group does vs. another group doesnt define torture. Torture is determined by those it is inflicted upon. If I sodomize your children, are you going to feel tortured? How about if I beat you to death? We have had several incidents of homicide from these lockups...are you telling me that they werent tortured? Maybe you are just an apologist for our abhorrent behavior?

[Truman01]

21. Torture isn't defined by the person being abused....

And don't attack me because I don't agree with you. Your analogy of sodimizing my children, or beating me to death don't apply. To our knowledge none of that has happened at Gitmo and that is what we were talking about. Torture has a meaning, it isn't something to be defined in anyway that we like.

Torture is the infliction of "extreme" duress to extract information (in this case) or for sadistic reasons.

I guess the word extreme is the key. No, murder, rape, and assualt aren't torture. They are crimes. There have been no homicides that we know of at Gitmo, no rapes, no allegations of beatings that I know of. We are talking about an article where there was sensory deprivation (maybe torture) and MAYBE a forced enema. I certainly wouldn't approve of a forced enema, and IF that happened I would say it was torture. Though it's kind of hard since the Japanese gave enemas with boiling water as torture.

I'm just saying that we are overstating the case. I'm not saying we are wrong. These things shouldn't be done. Calling them torture doesn't make them worse, it distracts us into a discussion of whether the word is appropriate.

I agree these things are out of line. Can we leave it there without the histrionics of trying to make it "torture."

TC

[bpilgrim]

22. if it happened in IRAQ

we KNOW that and possibly WORSE happened to the POWs in GITMO besides WITNESSES who spoke out in europe BESIDES the TORTURE MEMOS AUTHORIZING IT.

you got your head in the SAND and are an ENABLER in MY book.

peace

[Truman01]

24. So assuming it happened is as good as having evidence!

And because I won't blindly follow every jackleg that says something I'm an enabler?

People don't like discussion around here do they? If you don't toe the line you are a Troll, or you are an Enabler, how about we just disagree.

TC

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Truman01]

27. You won't stick to what we are talking about....

We are talking about this article about Gitmo. Show me any evidence that these things are happening there? Assumptions don't count, sorry. I deal with "legal documents" everyday. Have we had anyone witnessing the things you are talking about at Gitmo? Serious question, I don't know the answer.

TC

[bpilgrim]

29. GITMO WAS THE PRECEDNT FOR THE LEGAL TORTURE DOCS... HELLO

and i TOLD YOU we have had witness to these crimes which have been posted here many times and will be again, shortly.

now, since even you admit, YOU DON'T KNOW, why don't you spend some time with GOOGLE or our search engine before taking on the case of the DEVIL!

peace

(on edit: links)

May 26, 2004
Another Briton Claims Gitmo Abuse

According to a May 25 Los Angeles Times article, a Briton who spent two years in the U.S. prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, is accusing his captors of subjecting him and other inmates to a catalog of brutality: beatings, forced injections, sleep deprivation and shackling in painful positions.

Jamal Harith, 37, described how he endured a beating in which a guard jumped up and down on his legs when he resisted an injection of an unknown drug, one of 10 such injections that left him feeling woozy and disoriented. He said interrogators forced him to spend long periods in painful positions on his knees or bound in chains that cut into his skin.

Harith said he witnessed dozens of beatings inflicted by a team of guards known as the Extreme Reaction Force. A guard with a video camera often taped the incidents, he said. Detainees suffered broken arms and legs and bloodied and swollen faces, he said. Harith insisted he was wrongly jailed at the prison where suspected Al Qaeda and Taliban fighters are being held. He was among five British detainees whom the U.S. military in March sent back to Britain, where authorities released them, saying they did not pose a security threat. On Monday, the Pentagon said the former British detainees are not credible.

much more...
http://guantanamobile.org/blog/archives/cat_the_detainees_speak.html

[Truman01]

30. AGAIN since you aren't reading what I'm saying....

I'm not supporting what is being done. My only argument is I disagree with calling it torture. PERIOD>

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Truman01]

37. I have to agree. If these things happened torture would be the

word for it.

TC

[bpilgrim]

41. there is no IF, we got PICTURES

and VIDEO, hello...

peace

[bpilgrim]

61. and testimony, precious...

here, bone up...

May 26, 2004
Another Briton Claims Gitmo Abuse

According to a May 25 Los Angeles Times article, a Briton who spent two years in the U.S. prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, is accusing his captors of subjecting him and other inmates to a catalog of brutality: beatings, forced injections, sleep deprivation and shackling in painful positions.

Jamal Harith, 37, described how he endured a beating in which a guard jumped up and down on his legs when he resisted an injection of an unknown drug, one of 10 such injections that left him feeling woozy and disoriented. He said interrogators forced him to spend long periods in painful positions on his knees or bound in chains that cut into his skin.

Harith said he witnessed dozens of beatings inflicted by a team of guards known as the Extreme Reaction Force. A guard with a video camera often taped the incidents, he said. Detainees suffered broken arms and legs and bloodied and swollen faces, he said. Harith insisted he was wrongly jailed at the prison where suspected Al Qaeda and Taliban fighters are being held. He was among five British detainees whom the U.S. military in March sent back to Britain, where authorities released them, saying they did not pose a security threat. On Monday, the Pentagon said the former British detainees are not credible.

much more...
http://guantanamobile.org/blog/archives/cat_the_detainees_speak.html

if you choose to remain WILLFULLY ignorant i will consider YOU an ENABLER.

peace

[TryingToWarnYou]

71. If beating people and abusing them isnt torture, then what is?

???

[DoYouEverWonder]

40. Here's a few articles to get you up to speed

Unfortunately we only have the victims stories to go by. They were not lucky enough like my dad to get a court order to get photographic evidence to support their case. Without photographic evidence it is almost impossible to win a brutality/torture case.


27 October, 2004

Four British men held at the Guantanamo Bay prison camp for nearly three years are suing the US government.

The ex-detainees are alleging torture and other human rights violations.

<snip>

The 'Tipton Three' alleged that they were beaten, stripped, shackled and deprived of sleep during their detention.

It was alleged that guards threw prisoners' Korans into toilets and attempted to force them to give up their religious faith.

There were claims that detainees were forcibly injected with unidentified drugs and intimidated with unmuzzled dogs.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3959635.stm


17 December, 2004

A Manchester man who claims he was tortured at Guantanamo Bay is expected to give evidence to MEPs in Paris.

Jamal al-Harith was held as a terror suspect for nearly three years at Camp X-Ray after being captured by American troops in Afghanistan.

He was released by the US in March without charge.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/4103935.stm


10 December, 2004

An Australian citizen held at the US military camp in Guantanamo Bay has said he has been beaten, kicked and offered the services of a prostitute.

The claims were contained in David Hicks' affidavit, ahead of his trial scheduled for early next year.

<snip>

They include beatings while being handcuffed and blindfolded, having his head slammed into concrete, being forced to run in leg shackles and being routinely deprived of sleep.

He said that he was offered the services of a prostitute for 15 minutes if he agreed to spy on other detainees, which he said he refused.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4084587.stm


Friday, 1 October, 2004

The first uncensored letter from a Briton held at Guantanamo Bay shows he has been tortured, his lawyers claim.

Moazzam Begg, 36, has been detained at the US military base without trial for two-and-a-half years.

His letter said he had been tortured, threatened with death and kept in solitary confinement since early 2003.


<snip>

A lawyer from the defence team who visited the camp recently was forbidden under US law from discussing the details of any allegations made.

"There are many many details of torture that have yet to come out of Guantanamo," said Mr Stafford-Smith.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3706050.stm

[koopie57]

23. if it happened to you

what would you call it?

[Truman01]

25. The enema that "may" have happened....

I suppose that could be called torture. I'm not arguing that these are good things, I'm saying that I disagree with overstating the case and calling everything torture.

I represented a family once whos daughter was made to drink draino just to give her rapist kicks, that is torture. The things that happened at Abu Garb (sp?) were sick, immature, pranks if the soldiers initiated them and should be dealt with severely. But torture?

Now if they were authorized by the higher ups, which I imagine was the case it is far worse, but still, torture?

Some sick jerk made an Iraqi man stand on a box holding wires with a hood on his head. He thought he was going to be electrocuted. Sick, awful, evil act, but torture? No torture is what Saddam would have done. Had the man staning in ankle deep water with high voltage wires being touched to his genitals.

I'm not condoning any of this activity, I'm just saying that calling it torture is disrespecting those who have really been tortured.

TC

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Truman01]

32. So "how the fuck do you know" is proof now?

Let me tell you, I saw the pictures you are talking about. They were quite disgusting. And yes they were crimes,but still, they weren't torture.


TC

[Name removed]

Deleted message

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[Truman01]

35. Those pictures were shown to lots of people. nt

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Truman01]

42. So now you know what was in the pictures that you didn't see?

I don't need to prove myself to you. I am in Washington quite a bit, and I've been in politics for a long time. Like I said, actually hurting someone for the hell of it is torture, doing what they did at Abu Garb was disgusting, and definitely a crime but not torture.

TC

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

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[bpilgrim]

60. You Claim YOU 'saw the pictures' and you aren't a member of the SENATE

so HOW THE FUCK do YOU know what they saw :shrug:

yet you CLAIM it wasn't torture :puke:

here, bone up...

May 26, 2004
Another Briton Claims Gitmo Abuse

According to a May 25 Los Angeles Times article, a Briton who spent two years in the U.S. prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, is accusing his captors of subjecting him and other inmates to a catalog of brutality: beatings, forced injections, sleep deprivation and shackling in painful positions.

Jamal Harith, 37, described how he endured a beating in which a guard jumped up and down on his legs when he resisted an injection of an unknown drug, one of 10 such injections that left him feeling woozy and disoriented. He said interrogators forced him to spend long periods in painful positions on his knees or bound in chains that cut into his skin.

Harith said he witnessed dozens of beatings inflicted by a team of guards known as the Extreme Reaction Force. A guard with a video camera often taped the incidents, he said. Detainees suffered broken arms and legs and bloodied and swollen faces, he said. Harith insisted he was wrongly jailed at the prison where suspected Al Qaeda and Taliban fighters are being held. He was among five British detainees whom the U.S. military in March sent back to Britain, where authorities released them, saying they did not pose a security threat. On Monday, the Pentagon said the former British detainees are not credible.

much more...
http://guantanamobile.org/blog/archives/cat_the_detainees_speak.html

if you choose to remain WILLFULLY ignorant i will consider YOU an ENABLER.

peace

[DS1]

67. We're partly in agreement

Torture to me is something that creates permanent damage, crushed bones, gouged eyes, burst eardrums, slicing off body parts, branding etc etc. Being covered in shit, forced to stand for long periods of time with a bag over your head and have a large German Shepard inches away from tearing into - while a shitty and frightening experience - eh, notsomuch.

The point is, we're violating our OWN standards as a country by making up a new legal classification for these people, so we can round them up and ship them off to a remote base and beat them and detain them for years without charges or giving them any reason to believe they'll be set free or tried.

Your father, while his experiences were horrific and I sympathize, in a cold analysis you've adopted had two exits to his detainment - death or the end of the war. These people have death, or ? - and the ? is what's really important here.

[bpilgrim]

68. so you STILL haven't heard about the RAPE, BEATINGS and MURDER, yet?

nor the FACT that we are raping and TORTURING CHILDREN, for CHRIST'S SAKE, in front of their MOTHERS?!

how long have YOU been on DU?

this is a serious problems if even looong term DU'ers don't know about these things...

peace

[DS1]

70. I'm talking about Gitmo, you're talking about Abu Graihb

or however it's spelled.

Spare me the 'longest time on DU' pissing contest, it's irrelevant and bores me.

[bpilgrim]

77. oh... you're talking about the PRISON that no one has access to, ic

and you are confident that we are all just making a big deal about nothing.

and this ain't a fucking pissing contest, no shit!

there is witness testimony of beatings, injections, MENTAL TORTURE and MORE but i guess you're still waiting for the pictures and video to appear on your eve. news, eh?

yeah, wahtever...

peace

[DS1]

82. You're being hysterical and putting words into my mouth

I believe I pretty much acknowledged that all types of torture are occuring at Gitmo - in fact I remember a report about a Nat'l Guard volunteer who was sent to Gitmo as a prisoner for training purposes equipped with a safe-word he was to use if it got too bad - which the guards immediately proceeded to ignore and beat him so badly he still has seizures and has lost a good deal of brain function.

That's why I said I was 'partly' in agreement with another poster. That whole 'shades of grey' thing that is so sorely lacking on DU.

I think I'll write my next repsonse in all caps and make as many wild-ass personal accusations as possible in my next reply, one would gather that it's the method du-jour

[bpilgrim]

83. you got that right, i get HYSTERICAL over TORTURE

especially those who try and DOWNPLAY it with 'RATIONAL discussion' :puke:

peace

[DS1]

85. BECAUSE THERE'S NEVER ANY PLACE FOR RATIONAL DISCUSSION

AND THE UNITED NATIONS SHOULD BE EQUIPPED WITH COMBAT BOXING ROOMS BECAUSE TORTURED PEOPLE ALL OVER THE WORLD NEVER DESERVE TO HAVE THEIR SITUATIONS DEALT WITH RATIONALLY LIKE THAT POLITIK SCUMFUCK BILL CLINTON MIGHT DO!!!

:eyes:

[bpilgrim]

86. to down play torture is sick

peace

[DS1]

88. I was trying to have a rational dicussion, you didn't

Both results are equally effective.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

113. fucking military they have no right to do that to our own soldier!

the bastids! that's a fine way to treat our sons in the military! oh, what assholes. it is clear rummy needs to be tortured. come here rummy, i got your enema, little cowardly weasel.

[Zhade]

92. What, did you miss the pictures of the Iraqi bitten by the dog?

Do you consider unleashing a dog on a guy and letting him get bitten (in the CROTCH!) torture?

But to clarify: torture is legally defined to include acts that DO NOT leave permanent damage. Be careful; you're starting to sound like David Horowitz.

EDIT: I realize that was at Abu Ghraib, not Gitmo, but the question still stands as a general one.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

114. what constitutes torture if not this? how would you like it? some died,

does that qualify as torture? let's get real here, according to Lancet, Army medics were called in to resuscitate prisoners who were tortured into unconsciousness, so that they could be tortured more, because it's not fun torturing unconscious people. 37 of them, that we know of, as reported in Lancet, have been tortured to death. The International Red Cross says it's torture, Amnesty International says it's torture, and you say it's not torture because you are more of an authority on what constitutes torture than these organizations are? Wow, that's impressive. I say it's torture, it's frequently deadly, always cruel, always without reason and totally unnecessary. The FBI and the CIA have said information gathered by these means is totally unreliable, as of course, people will tell you anything you want, if you torture them. If you don't think it's torture, I suggest you try it.

[Judi Lynn]

117. Thanks for pointing out the unbelievable cruelty they employed.

Absolutely no one in a sane world would imagine people could be so bent they would EVER consider returning people who had become unconscious from unbearable pain, to the waking state from which they could be even more deeply injured and tormented.

There is NO justifiable level of torture. Decent people don't have think that one over. Arguing about it points out a guy as somewhat slow and cruel, or simply a "me first" American (Republican) and cruel.

If I'm not mistaken, what I saw a couple of months ago indicated that even military doctors were involved in restoring the victems to total awareness in order to better receive the planned filthy overtures in torture from these monsters.

[Rose Siding]

31. The sources say it happened

Early in the article the writer used the qualifier "may". But the sources were difinitive:

snip>
None of the approved techniques, however, covered some of what people have now said occurred. Mr. Kahtani was, for example, forcibly given an enema, officials said, which was used because it was uncomfortable and degrading.

Pentagon spokesmen said the procedure was medically necessary because Mr. Kahtani was dehydrated after an especially difficult interrogation session. Another official, told of the use of the enema, said, however, "I bet they said he was dehydrated," adding that that was the justification whenever an enema was used as a coercive technique, as it had been on several detainees.
..............

Torture; as you defined it yourself.

How long do you think you or a loved one could stand on the box before you called that torture? Just estimate. thanks

[Truman01]

34. I give, call it whatever you want. I call it a crime, and disgusting..

I missed the part of the article you showed me, thanks you are right.

If you guys want to call it torture, fine. We are having a game of semantics anyway. We all believe these are dispicable acts that should never have happened and should be punished. We are only debating what to call them.

TC

[bpilgrim]

36. you are 'playing a GAME of semantics'

you said it.

peace

[Zhade]

93. The Geneva Conventions are NOT a game of semantics.

NT!

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Truman01]

43. Well I'm sorry to hear that.....

I tend to be picky about "proof" and semantics.

TC

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

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[Rose Siding]

47. Oh, please

"picky about proof"? You launched your argument before you read the article!

[noamnety]

50. If you want to argue semantics

Look up the US's own legal definition of torture. Then look up the UN's definition. These actions are defined as torture by both organizations. Semantically, it's not a debatable point.

Furthermore, dismissing rape as a "prank" because some people like sex is beyond ignorant.

[Truman01]

52. I didn't dismiss Rape at all.... I don't remember rape at

Abu Garb. I suppose at Gitmo a forced enema would be rape. Again I completely disagree with these practices. My only argument has been whether or not I called it torture.

I'll have to think where I can find a "legal" definition of torture and see what it is.

Torture isn't usually a crime in itself, the actions done to torture someone are the way we classify the crime. But you are right, I'm sure there is a legal definition somewhere.

TC

[noamnety]

55. You don't seem to have the facts straight

Definitely you should look up the legal definitions, both for the US and the UN, if you plan to discuss whether something is or isn't within the definition. Beyond that, you seem less than totally clear on whether torture is a crime in and of itself. Congress has criminalized torture outside the US but not within. If it happens on US soil, then the specific acts are the crime.

[Truman01]

56. Have you looked up these definitions? If so, where are they

I have access to all the US law books I'll get the text. I'm interested now, save me some research time.

TC

[bpilgrim]

64. lol

how old r u?

peace

[noamnety]

65. The US's definition of torture

Here's the US's definition of torture (18 USC), I bolded some parts, to emphasize that torture does not require a sustained physical injury. Threats of electrocution do in fact fall well within the definition, whether or not the electrocution ever actually happened. Sleep deprivation and incessant loud music also fall within the definition, under 2.D. below.

(1) ''torture'' means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;

(2) ''severe mental pain or suffering'' means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from -

(A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;

(B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;

(C) the threat of imminent death; or

(D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality

http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/18C113C.txt

Sodomy/rape did occur at Abu Ghraib also. The Taguba report documents a case of sodomy with a chemlight, and a possible case with a broomstick.

[Truman01]

72. Ok I agree with you guys, it is torture. A bigger point.....

Have you guys ever thought that you can change someone's mind if you simply state your case without calling people a fucking idiot, or making all sorts of silly personal attacks on them.

I started on this debate, not because I felt passionate about it really, but because I didn't view what was done as torture. My experience is colored by the stories my father and his friends tell. I have an idea of what torture is in my mind and this didn't fit.

I was no less disturbed by what was going on, and have never argued that it shouldn't stop or be severely punished. But many here are so combative they take a good argument and turn it into a school yard brawl.

We are adults, we will disagree and debate opposite sides, why do we have to resort to name calling and personal attacks? Why can't we just debate our point and try to bring people to our way of thinking? You guys have informed me and changed my opinion on this issue, but in the process I've been called all sorts of names and there have been at least 5 posts Deleted for abuse.

It's something to think about. By the way, because I am a lawyer, I sometimes play devil's advocate just to explore an issue. No, I'm not a fucking idiot, and insults just make me shake my head and wonder where the adults are.

Thanks for the discussion, I learned a lot.

TC

[noamnety]

76. Sorry, but for some of us it's personal

I have an immediate family member that was raped. I tend to get angry when someone comes along and refers to anything like that as a prank, or jokes that some people like it, so it can't be that bad.

You don't see a lot of rape survivors shrugging off the experience as no big deal, or downplaying it, because it's traumatic, it changes a person's personality, it changes their life, it makes them suicidal, it makes them paranoid, it changes how they interact with others ... I could keep going here.

I guess if you haven't been raped, you could see your arguments as harmlessly "playing" devil's advocate, like discussing torture is some sort of game. For some people it's extremely offensive to listen to Rush-like comments about it being no biggie.

So when you are trying to figure out where people are coming from if their comments to you seem harsh, ask yourself if, say, your mom was kidnapped without reason, locked up, stripped, handcuffed, made to simulate sex acts for a camera, and finally sodomized, if some person then told you it was a prank, they've seen worse, would you be tempted to treat that person with less than total politeness?

[Truman01]

78. I totally agree with you , and I wouldn't down play rape....

I was referring to the piling of naked body and the guy being told he was being electrocuted. At the time I didn't consider that torture. I have always consider these things crime and awful behavior but I just didn't really associate them with torture.

Rape is a horrible crime, one of the worst imaginable and I would never be so rude or insensative to downplay it or try to pretend it is anything but a life shattering experience.

I'm sorry you felt I was saying that.

TC

[Zhade]

96. It's not just "Rush-like", it's Rush's EXACT WORDS.

He also called the torture "pranks". Probably one of the reasons people got so heated at Truman01 - we don't like hearing bullshit, dishonest rightwing talking points, even if the person repeating them doesn't realize they're doing it.

[bpilgrim]

79. you shouldn't 'start on a debate' until you have the relevant facts

especially about such SERIOUS CHARGES!

thats a HUGE problem in america, fostered by our media, imho.

i hope you learned a lesson.

peace

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

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[Zhade]

95. Hey, torture apologia pisses many of us off. Go figure.

NT!

[Zhade]

94. self-deleted

No longer necessary.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

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[Truman01]

66. I didn't see all of them, and no, I don't remember rape at Abu Garb nt

[bpilgrim]

75. oh... now you claim you didn't see ALL the pictures...

so i guess you DON'T KNOW about the RAPE of CHILDREN and TORTURE in front of their MOTHERS, either?

Seymour Hersh on Abu Ghraib: "horrible things done to children of women prisoners, as the cameras run."
Brad DeLong posted an email message he received from someone who saw Seymour Hersh speak at the University of Chicago a couple of nights ago.

said that after he broke Abu Ghraib people are coming out of the woodwork to tell him this stuff. He said he had seen all the Abu Ghraib pictures. He said, "You haven't begun to see evil..." then trailed off. He said, "horrible things done to children of women prisoners, as the cameras run."

He looked frightened.

more...
http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/movable_type/2004_archives/000987.html

see also, from 'mother jones'...

The International Committee of the Red Cross has confirmed that they are aware of children in the American gulags in Iraq. At the camps at Abu Gharib and Um Qasr the Red Cross has recorded children – “a total of 107 children between January and May of this year in the course of 19 visits to 6 different detention places.”

At about the same time as the German TV report Seymour Hersh gave a speech to the American Civil Liberties Union. Hersh, whose investigative stories first revealed the Abu Gharib horrors informed the ACLU that the truth was still being covered up and that
it was much worse than had been yet told.

Hersh described a video tape of young Iraqi boys being sodomized by Iraqi prison guards. Hersh says that the worst part of the tape is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking. Hersh has stated that there was a “series of massive crimes, criminal activity by the President and Vice President, by this administration anyway – war crimes”.

more...
http://www.motherjones.com/cgi-bin/WebX?14@131.J0wWa7SV3XS.0@.ee9cbca/35

now YOU know.

peace

[Truman01]

80. I appreciate the articles. nt

[ConsAreLiars]

112. Incredible - "Torture isn't usually a crime in itself"

What a sick fucking statement.

You are absolutely whoring yourself in service of the new fascism. Got an application in with the "Justice" Department or what?

[Zhade]

91. PRANKS? Rush thanks you for repeating his talking points.

By the way, all torture is not physical. There is such a thing as mental torture, such as the hooded man on the box.

It's torture, legally, by definition, and no matter how much you try to explain it away, it remains torture.

I don't know how you do it. I'd be very uncomfortable to learn I was saying the same thing as Rush Limbaugh about torture. My conscience would really get to me. How can you offer apologia for torture so easily?

[Is It Fascism Yet]

115. don't worry, Saddam won't be torturing the Iraqi people anymore

from now on we'll do it!

[0007]

53. Agreed there are many types of torture and to some psychological

torture is worse than any physical torture imagined. And the U.S. is way over the top and out of line. The Japanese created a Frankenstein that was destroyed by us..... .the U.S. didn't learn a fucking thing in that frame, did they?

[Truman01]

57. You have a point, we don't learn from our mistakes nt

[wildflower]

87. Yes, the definition of torture,

The definition of torture, to me, is that which is unbearable, either psychologically or physically, to the sufferer of it.

For that is torture's purpose; when the treatment cannot be borne, the sufferer will do anything to stop it. That's why it's used to get information out of people.

Thus losing a few hours of sleep or being hit might be considered 'only' abuse. But if such treatment continues to the point where the sufferer will do anything to make it stop, that is torture.

By the same token, being forced to watch one's child hurt would be unbearable and thus psychological torture.

Abuse on its own, of course, does have lasting psychological and physical effects.

That's how I see it - but here is Merriam-Webster's definition of torture:

1 a : anguish of body or mind : AGONY b : something that causes agony or pain

2 : the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure

3 : distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument : STRAINING

-wildflower

[0007]

89. Very well put wildflower!

[wildflower]

90. Thanks, 0007. I probably shouldn't have included def. #3...

I doubt tortured arguments are being used. But who knows, maybe they are. I certainly see a lot of those in the media. :)

Not to make light of this subject. It's one that very deeply concerns me. It's my hope that this can be stopped via the will of the people.

-wildflower

ON EDIT: I meant to note in my original post above that my definition of torture contains the exact reason why it doesn't work: the "sufferer will do anything to stop it" part.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

119. good defintion-anybody would have to agree with it

even if you call prisoners of war "enemy combatants" and even if you call using unbearable techniques "pranks"
it doesn't change anything.

Anyone want to volunteer to have one of these harmless little "pranks" done to them?(you know the kind where you may end up dead)
I didn't think so.

[shraby]

54. Trouble is,

it doesn't take very long from "mild" torture to turn into extreme torture once the barriers are dropped. Any is too much.

[Truman01]

58. I fear you are right about that.

I don't like what I see out there wether it's called torture or not. We are opening pandora's box by allowing it.

TC

[TryingToWarnYou]

69. Hang on just a sec....

I beg to differ with you.. we have beaten Iraqi's to death in Abu G. and sodomizing children as well as adults has also been some of the torture we have meted out to the Iraqi's. Im not attacking you for 'disagreeing' with me. Im pointing out that what one person might think is not really torture, might be considered torture by another. Im sorry you missed that point.

Torture is the infliction of "extreme" duress to extract information (in this case) or for sadistic reasons.

So, by your definition, we arent torturing anyone over there because our torture has a purpose (information gathering as opposed to sadism)??

I guess the word extreme is the key. No, murder, rape, and assualt aren't torture. They are crimes. There have been no homicides that we know of at Gitmo, no rapes, no allegations of beatings that I know of.

That *you* know of. I suggest you do some reading on what has been brought up in investigations. Murder, Rape and assault arent only crimes, they are also torture. Its not a single event, its a journey to get to the end result.

We are talking about an article where there was sensory deprivation (maybe torture) and MAYBE a forced enema. I certainly wouldn't approve of a forced enema, and IF that happened I would say it was torture. Though it's kind of hard since the Japanese gave enemas with boiling water as torture.

Everything is unknown unless someone admits to it or the evidence is found. If you are sitting around waiting for an admission of guilt from one of our GI Joes, then you might have a long wait. Im not saying everything alleged is true, absolutely not. What I am saying is that we have tortured the fuck out many, many Iraqi's for both "reasons" and sadism. The people that did this, did it out of revenge (on a group of people that didnt do anything to us, go figure) and for the excitement of doing something so taboo. Im not going to sit around like you and hash what the meaning of torture might be. I know that torture is sticking lit cigarettes into peoples ears, electrocuting them, murdering them, beating them, raping them, sodomizing them etc. Torture takes many forms. Lets do a few of these things to you and see how you feel about it?

[Truman01]

74. Check out post 72, I changed my mind. nt

[Zhade]

97. Actually, in all fairness, I don't think murder can be torture, can it?

I mean, if the point is that the sufferer will do anything to make it stop, it doesn't apply, because the sufferer isn't around any more to do anything to make it stop.

Otherwise, great post.

[TryingToWarnYou]

109. Well, murder may not have been the intent, but the outcome

Maybe they were assaulting the person and they died somewhere along the way...

[Zhade]

118. Yes, we agree on that.

NT!

[Is It Fascism Yet]

104. where have you been? yes there have been 37 homicides that we know of

at Abu, according the the Red Cross, but, it seems no authority will satisfy you...lets see, we got cnn, mshnbc, even faux had to mention it, even the Moonie owned Wash Post had to mention it, we have Lancet, the NY Times, the Red Cross, none of these sources is deemed reliable to you? I am so sorry about what your dad went through in Nam it was wrong and inexplicably cruel I'm sure, but you seem to have gotten the idea that nothing else can compare. That sort of thing didn't start with your dad nor end there either.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

103. very sensible reply n/t

[Occulus]

81. Um.....

"Some people enjoy that !"

:wtf:

Down boy. Down!

[Is It Fascism Yet]

101. both his collarbones? you father has two collarbones? thats ramarkable.

source please?

[Is It Fascism Yet]

100. Tell me its not torture when it causes death n/t

[bpilgrim]

15. rape, abuse and MURDER... even CHILDREN, in front of their MOTHERS is

FUCKING TORTURE.

just because our 'PRESS' refuses to print it - though, it is reported ALL OVER THE WORLD - doesn't mean it didn't happen.

peace

[grahamhgreen]

48. "No physical or mental torture"

The Geneva Conventions recognize that torture can be merely mental.

(Art 17): "No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted or exposed to unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind."

[Supersedeas]

120. but that's a document, like the Constitution, drafted by someone else

these good fellas run by the own rules--to hell with all the other rules of civilized society.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

99. right, no more euphamisms, 37 that we know of are dead from it, its tortur

[StClone]

2. Dear Lord Bush

The torpid masses in the good old USA ignore the torture, but the world sees and remembers. What goes around comes around and thank you for probably inviting the reason for new and improved 9-11.

[Calvinist Basset]

3. Well said.

Anybody that hated us before may now find only more reason to do so.

[aikido15]

4. It makes us look like...

...a bunch of perverts who live to stick something up someone else's ass! Sicko, man!

[NJCher]

5. I was thinking the same thing

The Nazis were cruel but this is sick and cruel.


Cher

[Supersedeas]

116. Foreign Policy -- Deliverance Style

[Is It Fascism Yet]

6. shrub, big dick and rummy should be tried for war crimes

and then tortured. it'd be just.

[OnlyInAmerica]

7. A fate worse than death

"...while exposed to...the insistent meowing of a cat-food commercial..."

That would be enough to drive me crazy right there, and I have 3 cats

[UpInArms]

9. trail leads to Rummy and *Co

The clearest indication that senior commanders at Guantánamo were aware of and supported what was occurring may be in some F.B.I. memorandums. One, dated May 10, 2003, and written by an unidentified agent, describes a sharp exchange between bureau officials and General Miller and Maj. Gen. Michael Dunlavey, who was in charge of the intelligence operations at Guantánamo then.

"Both sides agreed that the bureau has its way of doing things and the D.O.D. has their marching orders from SecDef," the memorandum said, using abbreviations for the Department of Defense and the secretary of defense. "Although the two techniques differed drastically, both generals believed they had a job to do."

[DELUSIONAL]

12. War Crimes

US soldiers in any conflict will be toast (and probably a few captured soldiers are dead due to the widespread knowledge of how the US tortures their captives).

The ass holes who crafted this sadistic treatment of prisoners will end up in hell (hoping that there is such a place).

[bpilgrim]

20. they NEVER mention POWs

or even INQUIRE :argh:

all we get is the body count :cry:

peace

[bpilgrim]

13. If they're "enemy combatants" then GENEVA obviously APPLIES

they used the term 'ILLEGAL' or 'UNLAWFUL COMBATANTS' to justify their illegal behavior by trying to argue that therefore they weren't entitled to the protection of GENEVA, just like the IMPERIAL JAPANESE of WWII infamy...


Japanese aircraft bombed south Shanghai Station Aug.28,1937.
About 200 people in the waiting room were dead or wounded by the bombing. A crying baby was left alone after the bombing.
Life Oct. 4, 1937

peace

[Supersedeas]

49. so NOW the Bushists have revised 'legalized' torture

legalized torture....sound like Bushspeak to you?

[MasonJar]

51. Lindsay Graham was on tv saying that the American public

should see the pictures as quickly as possible. However, when he actually saw them himself, he backed out. I think the public deserves to see what is being done in their names. Undoubtedly the reason officers from Gitmo were arrested and accused of treason was because they were witnesses to the torture. I do NOT know about the rest of you, but if I or my family were subjected to such vile and sadistic treatment, I would consider it torture. Let the leaders who sanctioned this behavior be subjected to it in massive doses; then if these "war criminals" say they have NOT been tortured, I will pull a shoe out of the closet and eat it, a la Tucker. Many appalled and patriotic Americans are stepping forward, as in the threatened FBI ageents. Kudos to them; they are true heroes. That Stump in Crawford could not even lick their boots.

[KayLaw]

59. Lindsey Graham

Also said what he saw amounted to rape and murder. I believe most people would consider that torture.

[Zhade]

98. Someone needs to step up and leak the fucking things.

All of it. Just dump it on the internet, preferably stamped in some way to ensure authenticity.

Our dollars paid for this blood, and the American public needs to own up to what's been done in our name. Can't do that until we know what was done - all of it.

It would be horrible, but it's vitally necessary, for everyone's sake.

[Tinoire]

62. "Why do they hate us?"

"Why do they hate us?" :cry: :cry:
"They hate what we see right here in this chamber (snip). They hate our freedoms; our freedom of religion, our freedom of speech, our freedom to vote and assemble and disagree with each other,"

Bush to a joint session of Congress, 20 September 2001

[Dr Fate]

73. What is the official stance of Democratic leadership on this?

What have top DEMS said about this on TV?

Are any top Democrats on TV today demanding someone take responsibility?

[Is It Fascism Yet]

106. officially the democrats seem to have no posture nor platform

except to be polite, dance around direct accusations against the current administration, doublespeak and play repub lite. The democratic party went south under terry mcaulife, if you ask me. Kerry should have said "liars and theives" with his face to the camera, all the pussyfooting around was dumb, and the democratic party hasn't stood up for any of our rights in this millenium either.

[Dr Fate]

111. Right- telling the truth "confuses swing voters"...

Its best we continue to lie for the Republicans through omission- all the "top strategists" for the DEMS seem to think so, at least...

[daleo]

107. "Forcibly given enemas"

That sounds like a milder description of rape.

[Disturbed]

108. Give TC some slack.

He is a Defense Attorney and has changed his view. That is good enuff for me.

The 2K pages of the Taguba Report that the DOD claimed they forgot to copy and send to Congress have NEVER been sent. Those pages are the worst I bet!

Congress and that includes most Dems want to downplay the Torture and War Crimes because it weakens Amerika. The DOD refuses to release more info and the 1K plus photos and some Vids that they have. I believe it is a Cover Up on every Dept. of the Govt. that is tangled up in this. I also believe that a doc with GW Bush's sig exists that would be proof that he is a War Criminal.

[genieroze]

110. Cage Of Freedom

http://www.hellblazer.com/archives/2004/08/cheesy_song_lyr_5.html