G.I. Families United in Grief, but Split by the War -NYT

[Rose Siding]

snip>
In this network linked by sorrow and empathy, however, one issue divides them: the wisdom of the war.

Relatives who believe the war in Iraq was necessary tend to gravitate toward one another, talking little of politics and more of pride, sacrifice and loneliness. And those like Ms. Sheehan, who questioned the need to invade Iraq, find one another too, wrestling with their doubts about the war and the meaning of their losses.
...
...one mother, Nancy Walker of Lancaster, Calif., said she found herself awkwardly starting to describe why she believed the war was wrong at her first dinner meeting with a couple in Iowa, whose marine son had died the same day as her own and whom she had driven many miles to see. Clearly, she said, the couple did not agree with her.

"I think what I told her was, 'Let's not go there with the politics,' " said Nelson Carman, the father from Jefferson, Iowa, a farming town of 4,500, who met with Ms. Walker that day. "I do believe firmly in this war. Those terrorists are going to bring the war to us. They hate you. They hate me. They hate our life. They hate what we stand for.

"To bring politics into our son's sacrifice is just something that is not conceivable to me," Mr. Carman said, adding that he felt a special sorrow for those families who felt as Ms. Walker did. Coping with the death of a child, he said, was challenge enough. "If you have another set of issues, especially political, that you're dealing with, that's just another hurdle you have to get over."
...
Karen Hilsendager, of Philomath, Ore., said she found herself struggling with her doubts about the war and what they meant for the death of her son, Specialist Eric S. McKinley, who was killed in June. Ms. Hilsendager said she was irked by a comment people often made about her son. "They tell me: 'Thank you so much for his service. He's a hero,' " she said. "And I want to say back, 'He's not a hero, he's a victim.' "

http://nytimes.com/2005/01/02/national/02moms.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5094&en=01527919e02f6167&hp&ex=1104642000&partner=homepage

[Solly Mack]

1. I can vouch for this

I simply do not talk to spouses who buy into the illegal invasion as a good thing. I don't get into all that voodoo conditioning of "liberation, freedom, democracy, hero, protecting us"

One lady said to me "If he dies it's God's will"

I said if anyone were to ever speak that garbage to me I would pull out a gun, shoot them, and as they lay dying ask "is this god's will, too?"

It's hard trying to find like-minded spouses to talk to....you have to watch for clues and determine if it's safe or not...cause let me tell you...some of those spouses go to command and "tell on you"

It's not like they can do anything to me about it, but they do make it hard on my husband...

it's a case of divided groups...those of us who are against the invasion....and the others. We call them the "dark side"

[LynnTheDem]

2. I'm lucky; my hubby's entire unit know this invasion = total bullshit.

I have a lot of army families to trash bushCartel with.

The families who do rah rah rah bush & this invasion KNOW it's all bullshit, they just can't deal with the truth. So they ignore it. Pretend Iraq was the USSR with nukes loaded, pointed in our direction.

It's unfortunate; if they could manage to handle the truth, they'd save lives by demanding bush get our troops the hell out of Iraq NOW.

[Solly Mack]

3. I had some real Ameri-bots and Bush-bots around me

Ameri-bots are those who shout "my country right or wrong"

The wives were vastly different from the soldiers in their thinking. Most of the soldiers saw it was all bullshit but some of their wives...sheesh.

And I won't even get into the Jesus-juice drinkers.(Bush chosen by God)

[LynnTheDem]

4. Some of the female spouses are unbelievable.

The rah rah rah ones. THEY should be on the front lines for any & all wars; meaner nastier pieces of work cannot be found.

Isn't it funny how the "my country right or wrong" morans never bother to finish the entire quote? Thing is, they don't even know the entire quote, coz if they did, they wouldn't spout it anymore.

'My country; if right, to be kept right; and, if wrong, to be set right.'


The latter, of course, being exactly what we non-rethugs are trying to do, in spite of the rightwingnuts.

[Solly Mack]

5. Damn pity we're not stationed together

The fun we could have with Bush-bots

[LynnTheDem]

6. We're at Ft. Hood, Texas

4ID.

There are actually a lot of anti-bushers around here, which is nice. :)

[Solly Mack]

7. We were at Fort Riley when he was deployed. Now in Germany

Not a lot of anti-Bush people at Riley. :(

[LynnTheDem]

8. But there are tons of in Germany...

Pretty much every German. :D

We were stationed in Hanau, Germany for 10 years before being sent here to Hood. One more year and hubby retires (assuming he's allowed to) and then we are so OUTTA HERE! I've got Cdn citizenship (dual) so we're heading to Canada for good. :)

[Solly Mack]

10. Yes. I get along well with Germans. :)

Good luck on retiring! We'll be in Germany at least 3 years. We've already inquired about a COT. (fingers crossed)

[Stinky The Clown]

11. A question for both Lynn and Solly

I'm struck by the marked differences in your personal experiences. Lynn, you seem quite comfortable with the fact that many of your peers there in Tejas are anti Bush and not afraid to say so. Solly, you seem to indicate that your experiences are quite different.

I'm wondering what accounts for this. Both Army. The others in your groups are likely as random in their political makeup as anywhere else (they didn't put all the anti Bush soldiers in the 4th ID!)

Is it something about your respective units' culture? The posture of your units' leaders or mid level officer corps?

Its curious. I'd love to know why. Maybe in knowing we can find a way to change even more minds.

[LynnTheDem]

16. One thing that may account for a bit of the difference, 4ID went late

to Iraq.

Remember how bushCartel ASSUMED Turkey would allow them to go thru Turkey into northern Iraq for the invasion? bushCartel ordered all 4ID's equipment & vehicles by ship to waters off Turkey and THEN they asked Turkey if they could do so; Turkey said HELL NO.

So all 4ID stuff had to be rerouted by ship, which resulted in 4ID not being sent to Iraq until the first week of April.

By then, ALL of bushCartel's "WMD" arguments had been debunked. A whole lot of 4ID, being still here in the USA, were aware of this fact. Troops already in Iraq were not.

So 4ID had a headstart on the knowledge that bush's invasion was a pile of bullshit.

Back then, of course, the only official justification for invasion, the "WMD", had not been bushCartel'ed and StateStenomedia'ed into "spreading democracy".

Unfortunate, really, coz if bush had ever tried saying we had to invade & occupy Iraq to "spread democracy", even the rightwingnuts would have called bush the crazy MFer he is and said HELL NO.

Keep in mind, too, that the majority of ENLISTED active duty troops are NOT republican, so it very much depends on if you're hanging around officers or enlisteds. I stay VERY FAR AWAY from all officers (other than my hubby, lol!)

[Solly Mack]

18. Bush-bots come from varying education levels and backgrounds

I was speaking of things happening during the time my husband was deployed.

I've met many Democrats in the Army over the years. But you know how some people get when there's a "war."


I had friends at Riley I could talk with about Bush, etc. We just also had a different group of spouses who were determined that everyone thought as they did. This other group...or..."the dark side", were mainly uneducated but not all. They were definitely weak-minded. Different backgrounds, as well.

These women would report "anti-American thinking" as breaches of op-sec. I kid you not. They took that propaganda to heart. Lynn will know of what I speak. The military TV channel telling people to watch for strange behavior and report it. It's was like having mini-McCarthy's running around post. But it was only within our unit. I never experienced it from outside of our unit.

When they would report it, it was "checked out." Mainly just asking my husband about it. But after a while, your commander gets a wee bit PO'd about having to respond to a non-issue, so they impose upon the soldier to "stop" it. The "Mini-Joes" were told to cease and they did for the most part.

They really hated me because I did speak my mind and my views. I never backed down from them and gave far better than I got.

But during the deployment, some people changed. You didn't know they had changed until you opened your mouth and they let loose with a tirade of "support the president!!!" Since you didn't know who had changed, you had to test the waters, so to speak.

Immediately after the deployment we got orders for Germany and things got back to "normal", more or less. Here in Germany I've met some like minded people. Mostly Germans but quite a few military families as well.

[Stinky The Clown]

21. Thank you Lynn and Solly, for your insight

[American Tragedy]

26. Recht Oder Unrecht Mein Vaterland.

Inscribed on the gates of Auschwitz.

[Just Me]

13. "If he dies it's God's will",....NOT!!!

I have two close friends and my closest sibling entangled in this MAN-MADE WAR.

I've been repeatedly confronted with "if he dies it's God's will" and I do not mince any words when I reply, "THIS IS A MAN-MADE WAR!!!! GOD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT!!!! ALL THOSE WHO SUPPORTED THIS WAR ARE FULLY RESPONSIBLE FOR ITS CONSEQUENCES,...NOT GOD!!! GOD MAY EMBRACE THE SOULS OF THOSE I LOVE,...BUT I KNOW IT IS HUMAN BEINGS WHO ARE PROFITTING OFF THEIR LIVES,...AND GOD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT!!! STOP USING GOD TO EXCUSE HUMAN CHOICES, OUR LEADERSHIP'S CHOICES TO DESTROY OTHER HUMAN BEINGS!!! PUT THE PERSONAL HUMAN RESPONSIBILITY WHERE IT BELONGS,...ON THE PEOPLE WHO CHOOSE TO DESTROY. STOP BLAMING GOD!!!"

I just,...get very indigant,...when people excuse horror within the control of human beings as some edict by God. That's wrong

[Solly Mack]

19. Oh, I fully understand.

I wanted to slap the lady but opted not to....

[Just Me]

20. Yeah,...I've chosen to just stare,...

,...at those who mindlessly spew such irrational dogma,...time and time, again. I guess I've reached my limit and I have "shocked and awed" those people a lot since then.

Amazingly, they still *LOL* talk to me,...but, without the religious rhetoric *smile*. Of course, I am always open to them and talk to them, too. I just,...defined my limits,...I guess.

[progressivebydesign]

23. There is no God. These people are part of a mass, post 9/11 hysteria. NT

[Been Fishing]

24. A great reply

to those who are convinced that God is on their side.

I'm appalled by soldiers who attend Christian prayer meetings before going out to kill Muslims. Too much like a Crusade.

[Barkley]

27. Amen!

We have got to stop making excuses for our destructive behavior.

[manic expression]

9. Wow

"I do believe firmly in this war. Those terrorists are going to bring the war to us. They hate you. They hate me. They hate our life. They hate what we stand for."

Who in their right minds would want to be around that kind of person anyway? This statement is absolutely wrong on so many levels that it is not even worth addressing.

[Festivito]

12. We love our country, in our different ways.

The soldier: enough to risk own life -- for love of our country.
The nationalist: enough to risk all without a second thought -- for love of our country.
The cynic: enough to work hard finding better ways for our country -- for love of our country.

If a discussion develops between lovers of this country, then it should recognize the work of each American.

This love is easily seen in a volunteer force. If one cannot respect, even admire, a soldier who dies for love our country, I wonder why such would even be involved with a DU.

[DS1]

14. The split: Asleep vs. eyes wide open

[Just Me]

17. I believe life is a bit more complex than that,...

,...I really do.

Particularly since I know many who are quite awake,...yet feel powerless to escape,...those who are clued into what's happening and trying to figure how to overcome the struggle,...those who are too entrapped in their own survival to have anything left to spend,...those who are being betrayed,...etc.

There are more sides to both humanity and life,...than just two.

[goforit]

15. As sad as this war has become, I'm glad to see it reach consciousness

The military has every right to thoroughly evaluate
whether or not this war is justified and/or warrants the loss of life.

[progressivebydesign]

22. My condolences. BUT the Iraqis WERE NOT FUCKING TERRORISTS!!!!

God.. why are some of these people so clueless? Iraqi terrorists, coming here? Really? Before we turned hundreds of thousands of them against us, how exactly were they going to get over here to attack us? Model airplane?

[IndianaGreen]

25. You are hearing American racism at play in here

All those that are ethnically different, are perceived as the enemy. This is why all "Arabs," including Afghans and Iranians who are ethnically not Arabs, are seen as unbelievers and barbarians by many of our compatriots. Remember the Sikh that was murdered by a white man in the aftermath of 9/11 who thought his victim was an Arab because he was wearing a turban?

What about the polls that showed a majority of Americans thought Iraq was involved in 9/11? This misconception was exploited by the Bush/Cheney regime, partly because our free press failed to challenge them in their assertions.

During Vietnam, all Vietnamese were seen as "gooks," a racially derogatory term first used by US Marines during the Philippines Insurrection of 1899-1902. We haven't changed that much since then!