NY Daily News: At last, women lash out at hip hop's abuses...

[truthpusher]

Essence magazine starts their new 'Take Back the Music' campaign.

Article Link: http://www.essence.com/essence/themix/takebackthemusic/

Below is the NY Daily News article:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ideas_opinions/story/267488p-229126c.html

At last, women lash out at hip hop's abuses

The most successful black women's magazine, Essence, is in the middle of a campaign that could have monumental cultural significance.

(snip)

When asked how the magazine decided to take a stand, the editor, Diane Weathers said, "We started looking at the media war on young girls, the hypersexualization that keeps pushing them in sexual directions at younger and younger ages."

(snip)

They were inspired by a campaign that some fathers and daughters led against Abercrombie & Fitch demanding that half-clad young people no longer be used to sell the clothing. When the campaign succeeded, the Essence staff realized there is a serious problem in the world of advertising as well as music.

(snip)

Essence has a year-long strategy that includes a town meeting at Spelman College in February.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ideas_opinions/story/267488p-229126c.html

[Racenut20]

1. Got those evil witches and burn them at the stake while there is still tim

[truthpusher]

2. while there is still tim?

[Racenut20]

3. Ran out of spaces....time ! ! l

[Jesus H. Christ]

5. Oh, drat.

[ashmanonar]

10. BWAHAHAHAHA

"i am the enchanter..."

[msanthrope]

16. That's just what I was thinking....."What is your favorite color?"

[Just Me]

93. WTF? IS THIS A RW HATE-THREAD AGAINST WOMEN OR WHAT?!! n/t

[Just Me]

100. If I had the POWER to NUKE a thread,...it would be this one. n/t

[naryaquid]

165. Hi... I just wanted to thank you for opening up an interesting,

pro-woman thread yesterday. I read your posts. You're a good man!...One of the few here (although they seem to be increasing) who is supportive of female humanity REGARDLESS of the sexual context.

Thanks for supporting our right to NOT be denigrated for simply being what we are - female.

Please continue...Women - not to mention young girls - need all the support they can get, especially from men of conscience, like yourself.

Thanks again.

Arene K. (Naryaquid)

[truthpusher]

185. Thanks for that...

...I heard a lot of great comments on this thread - I was kind of surprised by some of the aggressive sentiment out there. I was expecting that most people would think that a group of women standing up for themselves to be a good thing (don't we Democrats have a tradition on this sort of thing?). Definitely eye-opening for me.

[naryaquid]

4. I do hope you're kidding, 'cause I support them 100% !

[Jesus H. Christ]

6. Me too.

I support this just like I supported getting all of that downer depressing stuff out of Blues music.

[truthpusher]

8. The blues joke is funny, but...

...I think this is a good thing because it is coming directly from the women it affects - If the folks who produce the trash have a right to express themselves, than I think those affected can do the same.

[naryaquid]

9. ...RIGHT ON!...and let "the blues" be damned!

[wicket]

12. Excellent point

I think this is a good thing because it is coming directly from the women it affects

I wholeheartedly agree :thumbsup:

(edited to fix tags)

[demosincebirth]

13. I agree

Using sex to sell to adolescence is wrong

[Jesus H. Christ]

15. Exactly.

Sex is the last thing adolescents should be thinking about!

[naryaquid]

17. ...I fear ou're not gettin' it, JH, The "sex" being "sold" in Hip-Hop is

often of the brutal, mysogynistic type...a kind of "sexual racism"

[Jesus H. Christ]

19. No, I'm thinking you're not getting it.

It's got nothing to do with misogyny, or at least the way Crouch is talking about it. But a puritanical fear of sex. Note the problem is "hypersexuality", not misogyny. And he cites the Abercrombie & Fitch ads, which had nothing to do with misogyny. The only people upset about those ads were conservative think-tanks, the same people who got upset over Janet Jackson's breast. So it's got to do with a fear of sex and the denigration of black musicians.

Here's what the conservative Stanely Crouch has to say about rap:

"I, for one, am sure that we Americans will get through this as we have gotten through many other things, from slavery to asbestos. But I do not think we can free ourselves of the troubles we see if we fail to call a spade a spade. As Chris Rock made clear on an HBO solo comedy hour, the vast majority of Negro Americans don't embrace these thugs, and no one should allow himself or herself to be defined by the very lowest of the group, the sex, the species. We have plenty to do, but we need to know what's shinola and what's not."

[naryaquid]

20. ...If that's true, JH, it seems the majority of the posters on this

thread are "not gettin" it along with me, since we seem to be in agreement...
What is written in the first post MENTIONS "hypersexuality" but if you actually click on the Essence LINK it INCLUDES - from page 1 - Mysogyny as much or more....
BTW, Chris Rock and Stanley Crouch - and you, I suspect - are all males...The Essence article lists the reactions of the FEMALES who are affected...Their opinion comes first.

[Jesus H. Christ]

21. There's a guy who agrees with Bill Cosby and Crouch.

Says it's good for the black community.

If disagreeing with that is wrong than I don't wanna be right.


Furthermore, the Essence article gripes about "hypersexuality", bikinis, and asses. Which like I said, is a conservative puritanical aversion to sex. Hypocritically, it also applauds the Notorious BIG and Tupac.

[naryaquid]

22. ...One guy, huh?..a whole ONE guy?!....like I said...Read the link...

[Jesus H. Christ]

23. One guy and your "majority" that agrees.

I read the article. Did you?

[naryaquid]

25. ...Yeah, I did....and you're not addressing any of it.

[Jesus H. Christ]

26. Yeah, I did.

maybe you didn't read my posts.

[truthpusher]

119. That's why I posted both Article's - the Essence article is more from..

..the view of those affected.

[jdj]

156. This is a little strange, because I think rap misogyny peaked

about 5-10 years ago.

I thought it was on a downturn.

Maybe I'm wrong.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jesus H. Christ]

28. Are you one of those DUers...

who thinks pornography is abusive?

[Pithlet]

31. I didn't see the message deleted

But, are you one of those DUers who knee jerks and accueses someone of being a prude because they don't agree with you about issues of sexuality?

[Jesus H. Christ]

35. I'm one of those DUers who...

thinks that people who get upset over Abercrombie and Fitch commercials or Janet Jackson's breast are prudes. Same with people who get upset over pornography. Or rap music, as a genre.

[Pithlet]

42. Yep

It's easier and much more intellectually lazy to just close your ears and label others with a different viewpoint and call them names. It's really no wonder you look at things the way you do.

[Jesus H. Christ]

44. You mean like labeling people "misogynist"?

Over lyrics in a song?

Funny how you include "close your ears" giving we were talking about music.

Here's another label worthy of discussion: "hypocrite."

[Pithlet]

46. Did I call anyone names?

I don't think so. I'm addressing you, and your behavior in this thread.

[Clyde Bruckman]

48. Good for essence magazine!!!!!! eom

[Jesus H. Christ]

50. Did I? No.

And if anybody's behaving badly in this thread it'd be you.

[Pithlet]

52. Prude

Your term here. You're the one who brought that word into this thread.

[Jesus H. Christ]

55. No, you were the one that brought that into this thread.

It's your word.

[Pithlet]

59. You admitted it!

I'm not even going to bother to quote you, because I'm sure others are perfectly capable of reading what you wrote in this thread.

[Jesus H. Christ]

63. Your post, #31.

You asked me if I thought they were being prudes (the first time the word appeared in this thread), I agreed that fit.

You then proceeded to call everybody a prude and then for some phony reason brought up "man hating" also the first time that appeared in this thread. Frankly, you're trolling.

[Pithlet]

65. I'm sorry.

My bad. Your posts have just been oozing understanding of the plight of how women are portrayed in the media. My mistake!

[Cheswick2.0]

74. Some people just enjoy demeaning or hate speech against women

This reminds me of the threads where one or two DU men will get hysterical defending prostitution. They get vicious if you suggest it victimizes girls and women. I always wonder if they are anxious about their supply getting cut off.

[Jesus H. Christ]

77. Hold on now, what's wrong with prostitution?

I have the highest esteem for prostitutes.

Seems we've moved from sexual prudery to professional snobbery.

[Cheswick2.0]

81. sorry I am not playing your game here

try baiting someone who's impressed.

[Pithlet]

85. Didn't you know?

The world is just like Hollywood portrays it! Women are never forced in to prostitution. They are never demeaned. They love it, in fact! There is no ugly, underside to prostitution. It simply doesn't exist. Prostitutes always find someone to take them away from everything and shower them with expensive gifts. You must be naive, or somethin'

;)

[LanternWaste]

104. Grade School Career Day: "I wanna be a Prositute when I grow up!"

Yup. I remember back in grade-school on Career Day all the school girls were absolutely enchanted with the idea of becoming prostitutes. :eyes:

You're right, of course- there does seem to be an appearance on DU to condone *all* things sexual and label anyone who disagrees with that postion as an "absolutist", "prude" or "puritan".

I guess I am a prude since I believe that sex (not Sex Ed... but sex) is something that should be confined to the Emotional rather than a Commodity. Prude? Yes. Puritan? No... I doubt I could wear the high-band, starched collars.

Edited for clarity.

[Merlot]

146. Please see "Pretty Woman" for reference...

Also note how many actresses win academy awards for protraying prostitutes.

[Danmel]

163. And they always look just like Julia Roberts!

No unattractive track marks, bruises, no STDs. It's really a great life!

[Jesus H. Christ]

87. I'm not playing a game.

Seriously.

I find nothing more immoral about prostitution. I think that people who have a knee jerk hatred against prostitution are more upset with women they see as "whores" than they really are with "exploitation."

[Pithlet]

92. It couldn't possibly be

because there actually is an underside to the profession? That not all prostitutes do it because they enjoy the work? That women are never lured or forced into it against their will? It isn't okay for anyone to care about them? It MUST be because they just demean them as whores?

Seriously, do you NEVER think about this?

I'm not sure that making prostitution illegal is the way to go. In fact, I believe it probably makes things worse. But, it certainly doesn't help matters to bury one's head in the sand and ignore the exploitative factor.

[Jesus H. Christ]

99. There's an underside to being a taxi driver.

But the people who care about taxi drivers call for safety standards. They don't consider taxi drivers to be a bunch of Jezebells. As it were.

[Pithlet]

102. Driving a car

and having sex aren't the same thing. And we aren't talking about taxi drivers, are we? But, this is the important part. Stay with me here. Not everyone who talks about the underside of prostitution thinks they're just a bunch of Jezebels, or looks down their noses at them. In fact, I'd be willing to bet a chunk of change that most of them don't. That's something your own little notion of how the world works has confabulated.

I know, it's difficult for some to keep up with such complicated issues. But, it's worth it, I assure you.

[Jesus H. Christ]

106. Taxi driving is one of the most dangerous professions.

Lots of taxi drivers get shot. I wonder, is it safer to be a taxi driver in New York, or a prostitute in Amsterdam.

"Driving a car and having sex aren't the same thing."

So then it's about the sex.

[Pithlet]

108. No.

It's not about the sex. It's about red is not blue. Apples aren't oranges. Up isn't down. Driving a car and sex aren't the same thing.

What does taxi driving have to do with prostitution? Nothing. Just like cooking meetloaf has nothing to do with flying an airplane.

[naryaquid]

105. ...More than one study of prostitutes has shown that over 90% were

sexually abused as children.

[Pithlet]

110. Aw.

Don't go interjecting the whole ugly mess of reality into this. It's much better to think that they all great their day with a cheery smile, and wait for their prince to come whisk them away to riches and fame, or help the protagonist on their quest to find themselves/the man or woman of their dreams/their long lost parent.

[Just Me]

82. Every extremist LOVES hate-speech against women.

Of course, I am not saying there are extremists on this board *GRIN*.

But, I must point out that,...the right-wingers,...are verily into porn and successive failed marriages and typically take their foreign corporate buddies to "female flesh" zones *LOL*.

BAH!!!

This is a feeding frenzy,...extremists on a bent!!!

[tsuki]

86. Yes, and OXyMoran is one. He has called us Fem-nazis for over twenty

years, and said all sorts of vile thing about women that don't fit the June Cleaver role. So, I don't listen to his shows, buy the products he hawks so he can bilk millions from advertisers to buy his drugs and ex-wives. I certainly never vote for anyone he thinks is reasonable.

But, I do not advocate curtailing his freedom of speech. However, I would love to see him in jail for his doping. Others would be.

[Jesus H. Christ]

96. I'm sure Rush would agree with the OP.

Just saying.

[Pithlet]

115. Okay

Now I KNOW you're living in a fantasy world, if you think limp balls would support any woman's cause. It just ain't happening. This is the guy that coined the term "feminazi", after all.

[Jesus H. Christ]

123. Oh, I'm sure Limbaugh doesn't give a damn about women.

But I'd bet a million bucks he'd agree 100% with Stan Crouch.

[Pithlet]

141. If I had a million

I would confidently bet money that Limbaugh would call him a librul feminazi.

[gorbal]

147. I didn't see him say anything that wrong up to this point.

I personally have problems with the violence and duhumanization, of women in music videos and pornography, not the sexuality.

Some of those "Rough Sex" videos feature women who are really being hurt. I think people should ask themselves how they would feel if that were their sister or their mother being abused.

It's good wwhat the magainzine is doing basically, getting people to talk about it. It's bad that you guys are arguing so horribly. I don't really think you meant to put each other down at first, you just sort of raised the level of argument to a crescendo.

[truthpusher]

152. The tone was changed a bit when...

...Jesus H. Christ started being a bit of a smart-ass. I's kind of a shame because there are a lot of thoughtful posts on this thread.

Either way, it's all pretty amusing :crazy:

[Algomas]

113. JH... I bet you don't have any pre-teen daughters, do you?

I do, and I am concerned by the barrage of hype directed at them. This year, we removed the TV from our house and it has helped a lot. My kids read now and are creating much more of their own entertainment.
My 11 year old is in 6th grade and her classmates are sex obsessed. After the Janet Jackson event, boys in the schoolyard were grabbing girls and pulling up their shirts. One of her classmates was removed from school when it was discovered she was in the clutches of a 20 year old predator.
My little girl has picked up some new vocabulary this year. Words like 'bitch' and 'ho' are in common usage.
I remember the peer pressure when I was a kid and I will do anything possible to keep my kids focused on the big picture. There is some good hip-hop available (Los Mocosos, Ozomatli, Los Orishas) but most of it is crap IMO. The negative gender stereotypes it pushes is harmful.
I applaud Essence for speaking out against this.

[phylny]

133. We have three daughters

and you are exactly right.

We always have to whisper in the "other ear" about what's really desirable about women, and it's not being a "bitch" or "ho." There's really nothing good about those terms. Nothing.

Good for you for putting the well-being of your daughter first. The world is tough enough.

[naryaquid]

51. ...Right on, Pithlet...sometimes called a "knee-jerk" liberal (or

First Amendment Absolutist)...They let others do their thinking for them.

[Pithlet]

56. This isn't about the 1st amendment

This is about speaking out rather than being silent. Speaking out, DESPITE being called names, or being accused of being against free speech.

For me, in this thread, it's also about noticing the rush to call people things like prudes. But, what do I know? I guess I'm just a prude! Silly me.

[naryaquid]

66. ..You're right...but in my experience, the supposed "progressives"

who refuse to face mysogyny when it's wrapped up in sex, will start yelling about "First Amendment" Freedoms..e.g. the right to demean women, verbally or pictorally. (though NOT racial and religious minorities)...As feminist Susan Brownmiller said "The liberal mind - so quick to make the connection between verbal abuse like "nigger" or "kike" in reference to minorities...is fiercely obdurate when it comes to the treatment of women"....Being thought "prudish" is the ultimate sin.

[Just Me]

71. That's just a damned lie,...and you know it!!!

Back off!!!

Or meet me in the PM,...if you have the BALLS!!!

[Cheswick2.0]

78. are you kidding?

the poster is right and so is Brownmiller. I hope you are being sarcastic?

[Just Me]

89. Hell NO!!! I am a "progressive",...

,...a "progressive" thinker who VALUES life and living!!!

I am a "progressive" who believes that the act of sex should be treated every bit as important and valuable as the food we put into our bodies,...as all the other "ideals" we embrace and pursue.

I am NOT kidding. I am NOT being sarcastic.

Why do you ask?

What part do you fail to understand?

[naryaquid]

84. ...Are you sure you're replying to the correct poster?...'cause

judging by YOUR posts, you and I seem to agree (you and I and Pithlet and Cheswick - most of the folks on this thread)....If by some chance you ARE "talking tuh me!"..as it were...I'll be glad - along with Susan B. and the others to "meet you in the PM"!

[Pithlet]

72. You're absolutely right.

It's not all liberal minds, though. It is amazing to me that there are people on this board who are very progressive, and well reasoned in all of their thoughts and opinions, except when it comes to this issue. For example, some of the same people who can argue so thoughtfully and compellingly against racism can become so obdurate when it comes to issues of sexism and feminism. It's always confounded me.

[naryaquid]

88. ...Yes, it's true...but who knows?...Judging by most of the posts here,

it looks like we might be making some progress!!...YESSS!...

[Pithlet]

91. Don't get too excited.

Some of the other usual suspects haven't shown up yet. I don't dare to think that maybe they've actually thought about the issue some, and that explains their absence here. We'll see.

[FizzFuzz]

244. hi Pithlet, and narayaquid and Cheswick--

gee I missed the monday discussion here--

Just wanted to say I totally agree with you all. The people who deny misogyny here ALWAYS jump to this false conclusion; that speaking out against sexualized violence against women equates to wanting to ban all sex.

It is bizarre and enraging. I've experienced the same crap. Try to point out misogyny and get accused of censorship. Excuse me, but yelling at me to shut up with my damned observations is..um...CENSORSHIP.

anyway, the appologists for woman-bashing read like a bunch of 15 year old boys afraid that someone wants to take away their wanker-mags. They are always determined to miss the point and take the discussion away from women's civil rights. Censor all sex? Au contraire, mes freres--we just want to talk about the destructive messages embedded in the bitch, ho, skank talk, and wake people up.

Geeez, there is SO MUCH sexualization of women embedded in so much media, I could go on for pages. I'm talking about the degradation kind of sexualization, where all women are portrayed as brainless bimbos, and then heaped with insults for being brainless bimbos. Popular in "men's entertainment" magazines and certain gonzo-style sports writing.

[naryaquid]

265. Thanks, FizzFuzz...good to hear from you again.!

You're observations are always right on target!

p.s. You may have previously remembered me as "martinolich"...for reasons of computer error too obtuse to go into, I'm now Naryaquid.

[Wilms]

64. So let me guess.

Janet Jackson is an "artist". And BET/MTV/Dapper Zombie, et. al aren't corporations selling sludge.

This ain't Lenny Bruce in a club. It's a pile of shit for which we get our asses kicked at the polls.

Give them a pay-per-view outlet and stop them from stalking children. They're predators, not voices in need of protection.

[Jesus H. Christ]

68. rap music is why we lose the elections?

Janet Jackson IS an artist. BET and MTV (dapper zombie?) are owned by corporations, and what they sell is loved by their customers. My opinion and yours is immaterial.

No, this ain't Lenny Bruce in a club, but that doesn't matter. If you don't like Janet Jackson's breast, turn off the television.

[Wilms]

75. Click n/t

[progressivebydesign]

94. I get upset over Abercrombie's PEDOPHILE tendencies....

But hey.. that's just me. A parent of a pre-teen girl. Sorry if our sensibilities offend your perverted nature.

[Jesus H. Christ]

112. "pedophile tendencies"

You mean adults in underwear.

Frankly, I think what's perverted is seeing adults wearing underwear and imagining pedophilia.

[Pithlet]

117. It's just too complicated

Some people are unable to look beyond the surface. They like their neat, orderly little perfect worldview to be unchallenged, thank you very much.

[Pithlet]

30. So, shut up about it?

Or face being accused of being purtianical prudes? Sorry. But no f*ckng way.

I think another poster had it absolutely right. If some hip hop and other artists in musical genres have the right to say it, then people affected by it have the right to speak up about it.

[Jesus H. Christ]

32. Absolutely.

And if people are going to run around like Puritans I have the right to speak up about that.

[Pithlet]

34. And you have a right to be called on it

because accusing people of prudes for not agreeing with you makes you look like an idiot.

[Jesus H. Christ]

38. I don't call people who disagree with me prudes.

There's lots of people who disagree with me, only a few of them are prudes.

Like the prude said, "let's call a spade a spade."

[Pithlet]

45. Yes, you do

On this issue. We're in this thread, darling. I'm not talking about all issues there are and ever were. If someone dares speak out about the ojbectification of women in media, you call them a prude. You admitted it yourself.

I suggest maybe listening to the other side, instead. You still don't have to agree with it, but you might learn something.

[Jesus H. Christ]

53. Well yeah, if the issue is prudery then sure.

Which is what this thread is about. Art and sexuality and the people that it offends.

[Pithlet]

58. That is not what this thread is about.

It is not that simple.

[Jesus H. Christ]

69. No, it's not all of it.

There's also the subtle racism of knee-jerk racism towards hip hop.

[Pithlet]

80. No, there's not.

You can't ignore that there are segments of hip hop that are guilty of what Essence is talking about. It is quite possible to point that segment out without damning ALL hip hop. In fact, no one has. The only ones who are insisting that is so are those who are jumping immediately into defense mode on this subject, instead of discussing the actual problem.

It is possible to discuss the problem without being racist, or a prude, or anti-sex. I promise you.

[Jesus H. Christ]

83. Sure there is.

You can't deny that there's a knee jerk hatred against hip hop. The conservative editorialist linked in the OP is a noted detractor of the genre. In fact, that's what I originally brought up originally and why I suspect this is more about Janet Jackson's breast type censorship/puritanism than about misogyny in hip hop.

[Pithlet]

90. People hate HipHop?!

Stop the presses!

Seriously. This was an article about women speaking out against the demeaning sexism in some hip hop. You're projecting all of that other stuff into this. Your other posts in this thread have seemed to insist that women should just shut up about this. It's fine to address the knee jerk hatred against hip hop, but this wouldn't be the place to do it as it isn't entirely relevant. At least, not until after you acknowledge that this problem DOES exist, and that there might just be a teeny weeny little bit of truth to what the women at Essence have to say about it. This is a magazine by and for black women. It would make sense that the media they target would be one that is aimed strongly at their demographic. I don't think there is anything nefarious in their actions against hip hop or any other art form.

[Jesus H. Christ]

95. You did see the New York Daily News editorial?

It was as much apart of the OP as the essence article.

"At least, not until after you acknowledge that this problem DOES exist."

The problem that there is sexism in hip hop? Not the hip hop I listen too. But I'm not the kind of person who confuses hypersexuality with sexism.

Frankly, I don't see why you consider racism not as important as sexism.

[Pithlet]

98. Well

If it were the NYDN article being heavily discussed in this thread, and not the uppity Essence women who DARED to speak out against the problem, then you'd have a point.

If you don't listen to the hip hop that is being referred to, then that's great! It still doesn't make the kind of hip hop they are referring to magically disappear. I don't assume that things don't exist because I don't see or hear them, or choose to ignore them. Do you?

[Jesus H. Christ]

103. There you go inserting loaded terms again.

I haven't said anything about the Essence article, except to bring up that they're using "hypersexuality" in place of "sexism" and that it's rather odd that they're ranting against it while at the same time applauding Tupac and Biggie.

Let's talk about some specific examples because this is all getting rather nebulous. Let's take Tupac. Would you consider Tupac's music to be misogynistic and what should be done about it?

[Pithlet]

107. I've never heard Tupac's music

So I can't make any judgments about it. I don't make any judgments about any hip hop. My whole point, and only point, in my participation in this thread, has been against those in this thread who feel that somehow these women shouldn't be speaking out against what they feel to be sexism in some hip hop music. I'm tired of what happens here and elsewhere, whenever any woman dares to speak out about any of these issues. We're told to shut up about it. We're being too unreasonable. Or we're against free speech. Or were making too much out of nothing. Your instance that they're replacing "hypersexuality" (whatever that means) in place of "sexism" is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. You insist that the hip hop music that YOU listen to doesn't have that problem, therefore they're wrong. That's maddening! That's exactly what I'm arguing against.

Women are degraded and treated like objects in much of the media. I don't understand why anyone is supposed to just ignore it. That it is never okay to discuss it or express a negative opinion about it. I'm just fed up. That's all.

[Jesus H. Christ]

114. I don't get it.

You want me to admit rap music is awash in misogyny but you yourself won't make any judgements.

[Pithlet]

116. I DON'T want you to admit that.

You are completely missing my point.

[Jesus H. Christ]

122. Well, you're not making yourself terribly clear.

"At least, not until after you acknowledge that this problem DOES exist."

[Pithlet]

128. That is out of context

and you know it.

My point is not and has never been that you should agree to a certain degree. My point has been that I objected to your instant reaction to the women of Essence up at the beginning of this thread, and to everyone who backs them up. My point has been that I hate the "Shut up and quit your complaining" mentality. If your point in this thread hasn't been that these women have no complaint, and should shut up about it, then you haven't been making yourself terribly clear, because that is exaclty how you've come across in this thread.

[fatherjohn]

153. HipHop

So Hip Hop is an art form huh? And when women become (finally) angry at the incredibly abusive behavior and words directed at them from these "artists" they are "prudes" huh?
Just tyring to update my vocabulary.

[Pithlet]

154. Hmmm. I think you meant to reply to someone else.

I'm actually defending Essence magazine in this thread. I don't think they, or anyone who speaks out against the mysoginy in any media, are prudes.

[silvermachine]

168. There is an element of racism...

...in the article. While I might respond with a er, lighter touch than J.H.C., much of what he said regarding knee-jerk criticism of hip-hop is true. Many many people seem to feel that the objectification of women started with rap/hip-hop. Of course there are some artists/performers in the genre that do just that. Just as there are in any art form. I doubt that there was much support from those on this board (that are old enough to remember) for Tipper Gore and the PMRC. Remember that? Getting intellectually bested by Frank Zappa was nothing to be ashamed of mind you, but when Dee Snider does it, it should tell you something about the validity of the position. Personally speaking, the movie "True Lies" had the most horrific example of misogyny I've ever seen. Broad brush anyone?

edit for sp

[lukasahero]

169. "true lies"

No surprise there when Ahnie's the star, mysogyny is soon to follow...

[naryaquid]

173. ...Racism?...The article is a Black-owned magazine for Black Women

..think you might want to "go back to the boards".

[silvermachine]

175. Sorry...

...if they bought into fear from the (predominately white) media.

[naryaquid]

178. ...I think that's a tad presumptuous...I think Black people are

quite capable of critiquing their own culture...

[silvermachine]

176. Two articles...

...are used in the discussion as well.

[naryaquid]

179. ...What is the second article?

[truthpusher]

187. The NY Daily news had a piece that refereed to...

...the Essence article. The Essence article was the first link in the original post.

[truthpusher]

239. .

[FizzFuzz]

245. When Tipper Gore et al led their crusade, it was about "protecting childre

children" and called for labelling and censorship of ALL adult, sexual references in entertainment media. It was about blandifying all music, movies, and television, or labelling with a scarlet A, for the protection of children against sexual references or dirty words, etc. Period.

That crusade was NEVER about speaking up for women as sexual beings and not victims. It never focused on criticizing VIOLENT IMAGES or LANGUAGE sexualizing and celebrating the victimization of WOMEN.

This issue is what male prudery-accusers here relentlessly skew--in their zeal to protect their entertainment seeking weenies, they can't seem to comprehend the difference between anti-sex fanatics (RW neo-cons and fundies, for example screaming about Janet Jackson revealing a tit, while conveniently ignoring Timberlake's RAPE ENACTMENT) and people trying to shine the light of honesty on the sickness of fetishizing CONTEMPT and HATRED of women.

A previous poster illuminated an interesting phenomenon--little boys in schoolyards reenacting TImberlake's attack in schoolyards across the nation. But that interesting consequence also is conveniently ignored.

I wish women's magazines would have been speaking up against the marketing of sensationalized VIOLENT LANGUAGE and IMAGERY that focus on demeaning, animalistic portrayals of girls, as titillating material. BIG KUDOS to Essence for finally saying what women's magazines have not had the fucking ovaries to say for the past 4 decades.

[Just Me]

54. I really don't understand how "respecting" sex is being "puritan".

You have every right to speak up. But, why do you feel so compelled to beat up on those who treat sex as seriously as the food we feed ourselves, the economic justice we want, the environment we create, the political body we seek to shape, etc?

As a "mature" female,...I find myself increasingly indignant about the "sex" thing. Women are expected to suck it up, emotionally. Men can suck it up, sexually. At least you guys can find a quick and easy outlet in the privacy of your bathroom. Emotions are not so easily spent!!!

[phylny]

137. Oh, I so agree with you.

No one loves sex better than I do (well, maybe the hubby, but I think we're about equal) but I totally understand that some music videos, some advertising, and some things we see on TV, etc. are full of dehumanizing behavior. Young girls have enough going on in their lives wihtout having to bother with this crap. The times comes for it, but not when they're young.

I just finished viewing this site (heard this on AAR today) and I'm sick:

http://www.thecityreview.com/zana.html

My brother does work in Ukraine, and boys and girl routinely prostitute themselves so that they can eat. I'm sick over that, too.

But of course, we must all be prudes to think such a thing - children exposed to adult things will be great! Prostitution is great!

:puke:

[OldVlad]

49. He'll never shut up

What you said I agree with 100%, but your not going to reason with this egomanic, he so paranoid about anything that even smells like sexual inhibition that he'll rationalize for days.

Well I was there when people where fighting against free love, this isn't that--in fact this is the most anti-feminist aspect of our culture. These boastful teenage rappers dehumanize women, objectivfy them, and reduce them to mindless slaves to be hung on their arms because its what their insecure audience wants and sells. My friend is a cop in one of the worst parts of Chicago and he can't believe the way young girls are treated recently.

But don't waste your breathe reasoning with that JHC, he obviously doesn't care about black women, only whether or not someone is telling him "no"

[Jesus H. Christ]

60. You know the old saying, "when you assume..."

"... you make an ass out of you."

[OldVlad]

70. Uh, you didn't shut up, so I didn't need to "assume" anything

Right on cue.

[Jesus H. Christ]

73. You assumed I don't care about black women.

In fact, it seems you assumed that since my user name is Jesus H. Christ then I must be a white male.

Don't feel bad. A lot of people make that mistake.

[OldVlad]

79. You assumed I care what you think

Don't feel bad. A lot of people make that mistake.

[Pithlet]

61. Yep

I just enjoy it too much. Really, it's almost too easy. It would be pathetic, if it weren't for the fact that so many see things like that. Everything would just be so simple in their world, if everyone else would just see things their way and shut up.

[maxsolomon]

7. good luck

wouldn't be a bad thing, but i'm not holding my breath for pat boone hip hop.

"shake it like a salt shaker" is bad somehow?

[OldVlad]

29. Its called Objectivication and all progressives should oppose it

I think the opposition from the black community being portrayed in the cartoonish way by manufactured rap CDs from misogynist, insecure teenage boys is overdue.

[naryaquid]

57. .....You got it!...

[Just Me]

67. Ahem,...I reject your implication that this is a "black community" thingy.

It's NOT!!!

You MUST be MALE!!!! :bounce:

And a WHITE MALE, at that!!!! :bounce:

[OldVlad]

76. I was unclear

I meant it is the black community that must fight this, but you are right, it is the young, insecure male whites that drive the sales of this cartoonish bragadocious idiocy.

They wouldn't dare want their white mothers to be talked about being slapped, insulted or raped, but rap about that happening to some black woman stranger? Why that's "cool"

[maxsolomon]

118. durr...

if its a post by me, its sarcasm. its all i have left.

"shake it like a salt shaker" is the tip of the booty rap iceberg.

[naryaquid]

222. ..aawww..."thinking cap" gone?...what a shame!

[Ilsa]

11. I hope the campaign succeeds. n/t

[okieinpain]

14. between this and bill cosby. 2005 is already looking up for the

black community.

[rodeodance]

18. Good for essance

[Just Me]

24. To be honest, I'm pretty sick of the commercial sex stuff, too.

Although, not all "hip hop" is guilty. It's pretty pervasive in the whole "commercial" world,...take the Viagra-obsession for example.

Just my take,...as a female.

[Pithlet]

33. No. You're a prude.

According to some. We musn't ever speak out against anything like this, or we're anti-sex. We're just prudes.

[blondeatlast]

40. I'm "prude" and I'm proud!

And I'll say it LOUD!

[Just Me]

62. Naw. I just respect both women and sex.

That's all.

Sex is great,...so long as it's not treated as an "item" to "consume".

[KTM]

257. See, there's my issue

And this has nothing to do with the OP, I've not read the articles, just commenting on the divisiveness of this thread.

I've got no problem with the way you view sex.. but I view it differently. Sex, for me, is not a romantic thing most of the time. Sometimes, there is sweet love by the fire and we enjoy the love and soft touches... and thats special, different, and wonderful. MOST of the time though, we (my SO and I) are just horny, and want sex. Sometimes I'm overly frisky and I want this or that, or she wants this or that... and it IS an item to be consumed. And we're OK with that. Neck massage ? Item to be consumed. Pedicure ? Item to be consumed. Lets not forget the massive endorphin rush to the frontal lobe... which, outside the world of sex, we pay to acquire in many different ways. We constantly consume physically pleasing things - why does sex have to be different ?

For me (not necessarily the way it has been used in this thread) that is how I understand the word "Prude." That may be incorrect, but to me it has always conveyed someone who does not see sex as an act that can consist solely of physical pleasure, but an act that is only "right" if borne of an emotional or procreational drive.

You are free to enjoy sex your way... and I'm sure, if we met, I'd not please you the way you like to be pleased. Likewise, of course... and thats fine. For me, discussions like these always fall apart because some people don't seem to get that for some of us, its just sex. It's fun. Sometimes, we like it dirty even ! For some of us, "hyper-sexuality" is not something that offends.

[blondeatlast]

37. Agreed, and call me a prude if you want to (hubby knows I'm rather

adventurous!).

Viagra ads and their ilk and the sleazy objectification of women in usic videos--they both make me sick.

If my opinion upsets Mr. Christ, I don't effing care a whit.

[Pithlet]

39. Another prude!

Well, what do you know? DU is just one big man hating puritan fest today! :)

[Cheswick2.0]

36. good for them and I hope they are sucessful

Mysogeny and hypersexualization are a real problem for both male and female children.

[republikkkon]

41. as a conneseur of hip hop

i can tell you that not all hip hop abuses or berates women. most that does is garbage rap that has been used by record company execs and video execs at MTV to make them rich. i don't see any more "hypersexuality" in a nelly video than i do in a christina agulierra or britney spears video... or just about any other video on mtv.

you can't blame hip hop because there are literally thousands of hip hop acts waiting for their moment in the spotlight that will never get signed precisely because they aren't interested in demeaning women or pushing drugs and violence.

this seems to be very misguided in my opinion.

[Pithlet]

43. Of course it isn't

But that doesn't mean you get to ignore the ones that do. There seems to be a huge push to silence anyone who dares disagree with the abuses. Just look at this thread. We're on DU, for crying out loud. Imagine how things are in the mainstream.

[Cheswick2.0]

47. obviously those not doing it are not the problem

and just because there is hypersexualization in Brittney's stuff doesn't mean the women of Essense can't go after hip hop that is offensive. It is there daughters (and sons) who are most victimized by some of the crap which sells.

PS... in a middle school after school drama group I was teaching a few years ago, not one child could bring in a hip hop or rap CD that was suitable to play in class. I gave them plenty of chances.. it was pretty clear this is the kind of crap they were listening to exclusively.

[truthpusher]

125. I agree - There is a lot of great Hip-Hop out there...

...there are even some very intelligent lyrics that include the 'B' word. The stuff that I don't like is the cheap thrown together bullshit that sells just because it's about abusing and fucking as many women as you can get your hands on. This stuff is being pushed to kids - It's about time that the mothers and the kids themselves start putting their hand up and saying 'no more'.

[Tomee450]

214. I support Essence

taking a stand. However, I agree with some of what you've said. A few years ago I read an article which indicated that some Hip-hop artists wanted to produce wholesome videos but were unable to get contracts because powerful people in the industry wanted only the dirty vulgar videos to be produced. Unfortunately many artists have capitulated in an effort to get contracts and earn big bucks.

[LincolnMcGrath]

97. It is never to early in the year for a gender war

for some here @ DU.

[progressivebydesign]

101. This is great news! I support them 1000% percent!

I can't understand why violence and sexual stereotypes are considered entertainment for teens. It amazes me to see the little white born again Christian girls at my dauther's jr. high that own every skanky, sexual, violent CD available. Their parents wont' let them ride the bus, because it stops at some trailer parks that they consider unsanitary, BUt they let them listen to this shit. And it IS shit. Rap, as a musical FORM in artistic. People lose that when they go for shock value. Oh.. but so many people on DU will argue that they're just singing about life on the street... Really? How many murders and rapes have you all witnessed and lived through? Why do you bring that into your safe, secure, middleclass homes?

There's a really amazing musician, who is black. He is a badass. Yet.. he doesn't sing about shit like that, doesn't promote it, and has the most eloquent essay on his website about how that type of music is destroying the black community, how it degrades black musical artists, and how hard it is to make a living in the entertainment industry unless you adhere to the gangsta stereotype perpetuated by a bunch of white guys in suits in Century City, who all live in fucking gated communities in the Pacific Palisades. (Where the public schools are filled with inner city kids bussed in from South Central L.A., and all the rich white kids from the Palisades go to private schools so their parents can keep them away from the other kids... while the rich white kids buy thousands of dollars of CDs about what it's like to be a kid growing up in South Central L.A. Ironic, no?)

[Johnny Noshoes]

111. Hell

sometimes I think this whole culture is insane. Someone further up the thread mentioned advertising. What does it say about a culture and a society when the three things most heavily advertised on national TV are drugs for digestive disorders, sexual dysfunction, and depression. Beam me up!:think:


"When you trade your values for the hope of winning, you end up losing and having no values....so you keep losing." Howard Dean 2004

[maduroftime]

109. Totally agree

You don't have to have puritanistic motivations to see the exploitation inherent in shock rap or hip-hop. I think the shine will come off this genre soon enough

[silvermachine]

171. Really?????

I doubt you know ANYTHING about rap or hip-hop. Not that I'm an expert but even I know that it started in the mid 70's as another form of dance music performed at house parties, neighborhood centers, etc. There is also a school of thought that ties it to black nationalist/consciousness performers such as the Last Poets in the 60's. Nice try, ass hat.

[antigone382]

120. First of all, I'm a woman and I like sex.

It's pretty fun, actually. And I don't mind celebrating sexuality in art and popular culture. Nor do I want to censor people from expressing their own sexuality, or even from writing and singing songs, whether they be hip hop, metal, country, or any other genre of music, that demean women, and disgust and offend me.

So don't tell me that I'm a prude if I express my First Amendment rights to say that those songs are disgusting, offensive, and harmful. Don't tell me that I'm a prude because I think that hip hop songs about "slappin' mah bitches" or for that matter, heavy metal songs about wanting to "slit your throat and rape the wound" should incite outrage and ridicule. Don't call me a prude if I feel threatened by a culture that increasingly views women as disposable chattle suitable for nothing other than sexual release. Don't tell me that I'm a prude if I'm disturbed by the more and more prevalent attitude that if women actually have the audacity to request a little loyalty or respect in return for the sexual pleasure that is provided by them, they are merely being obnoxious and uppity, and should either be immediately abandoned, or beaten into submission.

And don't even try to tell me that songs like that don't exist. No, all hip hop doesn't demean and objectify women, nor are other genres of music exempt from criticism. But if a magazine marketed to black women is involved in a movement criticizing those attitudes in a genre of music that is performed largely by black artists, and supposedly marketed largely to black consumers (even though a lot of white people listen to it as well), I have no problem with that. In fact, it would be wonderful if magazines like Cosmopolitan and Vanity Fair would start campaigns criticizing forms of pop, rock, country, and other genres of music that share the same denigrating attitudes toward women--though they'd probably have to start by removing some of the vapid, "friendly sexism" from their own pages.

My ultimate point is this: I think the KKK is disgusting and stupid. No, Constitutionally I cannot take away their rights to meet and express their views, nor would I want to. What I can do is express outrage and ridicule at their bigoted and ignorant beliefs, and encourage others who do the same. In doing so, I am marginalizing their effect on society, and most DUers would agree that that's a good thing. To me, Essence is doing the same thing to those who demean and objectify women, and I don't understand how any but the most backward mysoginist could have a problem with that.

[Jesus H. Christ]

124. How about Jimi Hendrix?

Specifically, "Hey, Joe?"

[truthpusher]

129. That's a song about revenge and infidelity...

...classic blues themes...I don't recall any old blues songs that sound like what I hear today.

[Jesus H. Christ]

130. Hmm, so misogyny is A-OK.

When it's classic blues.

[truthpusher]

135. Read what I said...context! context!...

...the context is revenge and infidelity...misogyny of course is part of the theme in Hey Joe - but it is not the sole theme - there is a real story there...what is going on today is pure wallowing - no story just violence - Hey Joe is not a celebration of the shame of another - Hey Joe is a story!! What you are trying to (weakly) defend has more to do with consumption of another, not an interaction. Much of what we hear today is nothing more than an attack, a one sided attack.

[silvermachine]

174. How about...

..."Where Did You Sleep Last Night?" by Leadbelly?

My girl, my girl, don't lie to me
Tell me where did you sleep last night

In the pines, in the pines
Where the sun don't ever shine
I would shiver the whole night through

My girl, my girl, where will you go
I'm going where the cold wind blows

In the pines, in the pines
Where the sun don't ever shine
I would shiver the whole night through

Her husband, was a hard working man
Just about a mile from here
His head was found in a driving wheel
But his body never was found

[LincolnMcGrath]

237. Hey silvermachine

Who was your fav. performer of that song? Lead Belly or Nirvana.

[silvermachine]

269. Lead Belly

Tho Nirvana's version was cool too. There was a band from Australia in the 60's called "The Master's Apprentices" that did a really great version, 1966-67 or thereabouts.

[LincolnMcGrath]

272. Cool thanks silvermachine

I'll see what I can dig up on The Masters Apprentices.

[silvermachine]

273. Try this

www.mastersapprentices.com

They changed the chords slightly to make the song sound more like "House of the Rising Sun", but more menacing. Great band in the Yardbirds, Pretty Things, Stones, Kinks tradition.

[LincolnMcGrath]

274. Thank you!

:yourock:

[Pithlet]

132. What about it?

What does that have to do with anything the poster said? Why don't we just go through the entire music library? I guess that's easier then listening or trying to understand what the poster is saying.

[agitpropagent9]

136. jimi hendrix?

heh.. nice try. "hey joe" is a blues cautionary tale about a man paying the consequences for a crime of passion and lamenting his self-imposed fate at the gallows.

it's not someone graphically celebrating his fantasy of cutting off his wife's head and sticking her body in the trunk (eminem) or talking about gang raping the preacher's daughter, or the manliness of pimping out a ho and slapping her around, allowing his friends to gang bang her before he kills her (nwa).

btw, i'm a big rap fan and an even bigger fan of the 1st amendment, but to pretend that there aren't mainstream rap artists being peddled on mtv and in teen magazines who say horrible things about women is to ignore the obvious.

[antigone382]

138. Thank you.

Somebody who gets it. :thumbsup:

[Jesus H. Christ]

160. Oh, so who decides what's good misogyny and bad misogyny?

What's the difference when Jimi Hendrix singing about wanting to shoot his wife for cheating on him, compared to Eminem joking about killing his mother for being abusive? What's obvious is that the only real difference is the genre. It's OK to sing about shooting women or random strangers when it's Jimi Hendrix or Johnny Cash or Jim Morrison singing about it, but when an young angry black man raps about it, oh no! It's trash! They're a bunch of thugs!

[truthpusher]

162. I am sorry, I think...

...you a trying to hard here. If you read the threads people are referring specifically to hard core abusive lyrics. By the way Eminem is not an 'angry young black man'. I appreciate all you have said here but I still stand by the fact that I think that Essence is doing a good thing here.

[GOTV]

166. There's no good misogyny, OK?

Jimi Hendrix did not sing about wanting to shoot his wife. He sang about someone else, Joe, shooting their wife. And the song makes it clear that shooting your wife is not acceptable to society by describing Joe's realization that he cannot stay in the country or he will be killed himself.

Joe is not held up as cool, he is not held up as a man, or an example to be followed. It is a portrait of an abusive criminal on the run.

I would say then that "Hey Joe" ranks low on the misogyny scale. Well below what I see in the many rock and rap videos.

[Jesus H. Christ]

194. "Hey, Joe" is one of the most misogynistic songs ever recorded.

It's also a fantastic song.

[GOTV]

271. Then you don't understand the word

[truthpusher]

126. Wow n/t

[Pithlet]

131. Brilliant. Well said.

I don't have to agree to outlawing assholery, but I can call an asshole an asshole. None of us have to keep quiet.

[antigone382]

139. Exactly! That's what I don't get about these "First Amendment" freaks

The basic attitude seems to be "They have the right to say whatever they want, so shut up!"

...and in a similar vein: "It's not that women don't have rights, it's just that some of them are stupid b*tches who just need to shut the f*ck up!"

:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

Grow up, people, honestly.

[FizzFuzz]

247. they practice "reverse censorship", but don't seem to realize it.

"The Constitution says you can't tell me to shut up---so YOU shut up!"

These same people frequently write virtuously about the evils of racism or classism. They are only capable of seeing the world in patriarchal terms.

Oh, and musically, there's a long tradition of sad songs about dead or murdered women. Bluegrass even has a funny little saying: "If the woman is alive at the end of the song, it ain't bluegrass"

[amazona]

134. probably by expressing outrage you are giving them a boost

A genre that appeals to the "bad boy" in its listeners isn't going to be "marginalized" by angry women saying the genre is naughty.

Hip hop can only gain publicity and listeners when it becomes apparent that there are still a few people left in the U.S. who think it is "dangerous" rather than "getting a little stale."


It almost makes me wonder if Essence is getting funding from the recording companies to do this. Who buys advertising in Essence? I haven't looked at an issue in a long while.

[antigone382]

143. It's a symptom of a society that still doesn't view sexism as a problem;

At least not on par with racism and other forms of discrimination.

There are extremist groups in America, such as white supremacists and neo-nazis, among whom there are musicians who write songs that glorify lynching black people and gassing Jews. The music is certainly controversial, and it appeals to the "bad boy" in its listeners as well, so why isn't it played on major radio stations, while music about sexually exploiting and abusing women is? The answer is that one type of "art"--if it can really be called art--is not tolerated or encouraged by mainstream society, while the other type of "art" is.

Sadly, in light of that fact, you're right. Angry women alone cannot marginalize the very sexism that marginalizes their value to society. But I disagree that the only way to stop sexism is to ignore it. I remember, about a year ago, the Netscape website had a big feature about how pimps had become this new, cool facet of popular culture. The central article in the piece devoted a single paragraph to glossing over a few women's groups who found the glorification of men who typically make huge profits by exploiting, and virtually enslaving women, pretty disgusting. The focus of the piece, which included little featurettes like a quiz on standard pimp attire, and a dictionary of pimp lingo, was not that pimps were cool because a lot of people thought they were disgusting and harmful to society, but rather that pimps were cool because the record companies said they were cool.

That article is a part of a larger trend. It isn't fueled by controversy or outrage, it's fueled by marginalizing women. My belief is that the only way to stop it is to keep getting louder, not quieter.

[FizzFuzz]

248. Hear Hear!!

Eloquent!

I'm glad to read you!!! You make alot of points that I rant about myself, but I think you do a better job.

Great writing! Great analysis!

and just to state the obvious, sexism isn't something showing up only in hip-hop. Black, white, doesn't matter. Every "boys-club" entity in popular culture thrives on boo-tay for box-office. Sports, beer ads, car/bike culture...etc. Actually, most mainstream entertainment is white owned and produced, so we've always mostly seen white misogyny. Only now that Essence is speaking up about hip-hop is a feminist view getting some eyeball time in the wider culture.

:thumbsup: antigone.

[DavidFL]

121. The Essence articles raise another good point...

What about some women in hip hop like Lil' Kim, who basically sells her music with her nearly naked body and lyrics which talk about her sexual exploits; she is now regretting the former. Or, if you want to go back a few years, Foxy Brown; another young woman who used her body and sexuality to sell her music. Even some of Missy Elliot's songs have sexually charged lyrics, although she doesn't really use her body to sell records.

I'm not trying to start a flame war, but I'm curious how women here feel about an artist like Lil' Kim. Is she empowering to young women in that she made the decision to exploit herself? Or is she another symptom of the problem? In other words, because the mentality of most commercial hip hop is that young Black women are hos, sexual objects and the sum of their body parts, is the reason she had to exploit herself and talk graphically about sex in her music because she had to if she wanted to make any headway in a male dominated medium? If so, is this a savvy "marketing" move on her part, or just plain submitting to male and corporate exploitation?

Compare Lil' Kim to an artist like Jill Scott or India.Arie. I realize Jill Scott and India.Arie's are classified as R&B/neo-soul and not hip hop, but Jill Scott does do some spoken word. Both women's lyrics examine the deeper aspect of relationships, are sometimes sensual -- but not explicit, and take on social subjects. Granted, Jill Scott and India.Arie don't have the same kind of name recognition that Lil' Kim does, but do they prove that Black women don't have to exploit their bodies or sexuality to become relatively successful in the business?

[LincolnMcGrath]

127. Equal Time *Explicit Lyrics*

Destiny's Child


Soldier

by Beyoncé Knowles, Kelly Rowland, Michelle Williams, Rich Harrison, Sean Garrett, Dwayne Carter, Clifford Harris
(T.I. raps)

(Beyonce in between his ryhmes)
I want a soldier
I gotta soldier

(Kelly)

We like dem boys that be in dem ‘lacs leaning, leaning
Open they mouth they grill gleaming ,gleaming
Candy paint keep that wheel clean, clean
and always be talking that country slang we like
we keep that beat that be in the back beating, beating
eyes be so slow from the chief ’n ,chief ‘n
I love how he keep my body screamin’ screamin’
A rude boy that’s good to me with street credibility

(chorus)

If his status ain’t hood I aint checking for him
better be street if he looking at me I need a soldier
and he’s gotta stand up for me
known to carry big things if you know what I mean

If his status ain’t hood I ain’t checking for him
Better be street if he looking at me
I need a soldier and he’s gotta stand up for me
Gotta know to get dough and he better be street

(Beyonce)

We like them boys up top from the BK, BK
know how to flip that money 3 ways , 3 ways
Always riding big on the freeway, freeway
With that east coast slang that us country girls we like
Low cut ceasars with the deep wave, deep wave
so quick to snatch up your Beyonce, Beyonce
Always coming down bopping our way, our way
Telling us that country girls the kinda girls they like

(chorus)

(dc3)
I know some soldiers in here
Where they at, where they at
They wanna take care of me
Where they at

I know some soldiers in here
Where they at, where they at
Dont mind taking one for me
where they at

I know some soldiers in here
Where they at, where they at
they wanna spend that on me
where they at


I know some soldiers in here
where they at, where they at
Wouldn’t mind putting that on me
Where they at

(Lil wayne raps)

(chorus)

(Michelle)

I like them boys over there
they looking strong tonight, strong tonight
Just might give one the phone tonight, phone tonight
Homies and the dickies in my zone tonight, zone tonight
he don’t know it might be on tonight
ohhh he looking good and he talking right, talking right
he they type that might change my life, change my life
Every time he look at me my girls be like, girls be like
that one may be the one tonight


KHIA LYRICS

"My Neck, My Back (Dirty Version)"

All you ladies pop your pussy like this
Shake your body, don't stop, don't miss
All you ladies pop your pussy like this
Shake your body, don't stop, don't miss
Just do it, do it, do it, do it, do it now
Lick it good suck this pussy, just like you should
Right now, Lick it good
suck this pussy just like you should
My Neck, my back
Lick my pussy and my crack,

My Neck, my back
Lick my pussy and my crack
My Neck, my back
Lick my pussy and my crack
My Neck, my back
Lick my pussy and my crack
My Neck, my back
Lick my pussy and my crack

First you gotta put your neck into it
Don't stop, just do, do it
Then you roll your tongue, from the crack back to the front
then suck it off til I shake and cum nigga
make sure I keep bustin nuts nigga
all over your face and stuff
slow head show me so much love
the best head comes from a thug
the dick good dick big and long
slow fuckin til the crack of dawn
on the edge makin faces n stuff
Through the night, making so much love
Dead sleep when the sun comes up

So, lick it now, lick it good
Lick this pussy just like you should
Right now, lick it good
Lick this pussy just like you should


My Neck, my back
Lick my pussy and my crack
My Neck, my back
Lick my pussy and my crack

You might roll dubs, you might have G's
But fuck that nigga, get on your knees
A bitch like me moans and screams
Thug misses know what I mean
At the club so fresh, so clean
Hoes hatin' niggas watchin' me
So hot in the line, on green
With a unit on my face, so mean
I gotta pick which nigga I need
to suck a thug nigga satisfy me
Try me nigga I'll make you see
them bitches aint got shit on me

So, lick it now, lick it good
Lick this pussy just like you should
Right now, lick it good
Lick this pussy just like you should

My Neck, my back
Lick my pussy and my crack
My Neck, my back
Lick my pussy and my crack

So, lick it now, lick it good
Suck this pussy just like you should
Right now, lick it good
Suck this pussy just like you should

My Neck, my back
Lick my pussy and my crack
My Neck, my back
Lick my pussy and my crack

[naryaquid]

145. ..It's musical porn, but I don't see much in the way of demeaning

males as a gender, and, of course, it's basically the "exception that proves the rule"..NO equality in terms of numbers, male to female...
..Nice try though!

[truthpusher]

151. I agree, I think history has shown that women have victimized a lot..

fewer men then men have victimized women. I think the whole reverse equality argument is juvenile in thought and totally lacks ground. It is the same as the whole Christians being victimized and whites being discriminated against for jobs argument. I am sure there are a few cases, but these groups are far from equal when it comes to abusers and the abused throughout American history.

[DavidFL]

148. That raises another valid issue...

Lyrics like that, and those below. Are they "equal time," in that the roles have been reversed and women are talking about men in very explicit way and in a way leveling the playing field, or is it a matter where they "must" do this to conform with the so-called demands of commercial hip hop market?

"How Many Licks" (Lil' Kim)


Hold up
So what you're saying is, oh
(Niggaz got me pissed like Lil' Kim)
You want to get freaky again, aight
A-ooh-ah-ooh
Oh, oh, oh, oh


I've been a lot of places, seen a lot of faces
Ah hell I even fuck with different races
A white dude - his name was John
He had a Queen Bee Rules tattoo on his arm, uh
He asked me if I'd be his date for the prom
and he'd buy me a horse, a Porsche and a farm
Dan my nigga from Down South
Used to like me to spank him and cum in his mouth
And Tony he was Italian (Uh-huh)
And he didn't give a fuck (Uh-huh)
That's what I liked about him
He ate my pussy from dark till the mornin
Called his girl up and told her we was bonin
Puerto Rican papi, used to be a Deacon
But now he be sucking me off on the weekend
And this black dude I called King Kong
He had a big ass dick and a hurricane tongue


So, how many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Cause I've got to know)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Tell me)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Oh, oh)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh)


This verse goes out to my niggaz in jail
Beatin they dicks to the double-X-L; Magazine (uhh)
You like how I look in the aqua green? Get your Vaseline
Roll some weed with some tissue and close your eyes
Then imagine your tongue in between my thighs
<*Moans*> Baby.. ohh.. yes ohh!
Jailer.. open up.. cell, block, eight
<*sexual sounds*>
Alright nigga, that's enough
Stop, look and listen; get back to your position
Kim got your dick hard, startin fights in the yard
Hotter than a Pop Tart fresh out of the toaster
Niggaz do anything for a Lil' Kim poster
Eses, Bloods, Crips, all the thugs
Up North in the hole, they all wanna know


How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Tell me, ha)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Tell me, oh yeah)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Oh, oh)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Oh, oh, oh, oh)


If you drivin in the street, hold on to your seat
Niggaz, grab your meat while I ride the beat
And if you see a shiny black Lamborghini fly by ya
(Shoom!) That's me the Knight Rider
Dressed in all black with the gat in the lap
Lunatics in the street - gotta keep the heat
Sixty on the bezel, a hundred on the rings
Sittin pretty baby with a Cash Money bling
12 A.M. I'm on the way to club
After three bottles I'll be ready to fuck
Some niggaz even put me on their grocery lists
Right next to the whip cream and box of chocolates
Designer pussy, my shit come in flavors
High-class taste niggaz got to spend paper
Lick it right the first time or you gotta do it over
Like it's rehearsal for a Tootsie commercial


How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Tell me, ha)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Tell me, oh yeah)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Oh, oh)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Oh, oh, oh, oh)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Tell me)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Let me know, let me know)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Oh, oh)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Oh, oh yeah)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Yeah)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Oh, oh)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Baby tell me)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Oh, oh, oh)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?


WORK IT
By: Missy Elliot

{*scratching*} DJ please, pick up your phone
I'm on the request line {*scratching*}
This is a Missy Elliott one time exclusive
(C'mon, c'mon)

Chorus:
Is it worth it, let me work it
I put my thing down, flip it and reverse it
{*"I put my thing down, flip it and reverse it" - backwards 2X*}
If you got a big , let me search ya
To find out how hard I gotta work ya
{*"I put my thing down, flip it and reverse it" - backwards 2X*}

I'd like to get to know ya so I could show ya
Put the pussy on ya like I told ya
Gimme all your numbers so I could phone ya
Your girl actin' stank then call me over
Not on the bed, lay me on your sofa
Phone before you come, I need to shave my chocha
You do or you don't or you will or won't ya
Go downtown and eat it like a vulture
See my hips and my tips, don't ya
See my ass and my lips, don't ya
Lost a few pounds in my waist for ya
This be the beat that goes ba ta ta
ba ta ta ta ta ta ta ta ta ta
Sex me so good I say blah-blah-blah
Work it, I need a glass of water
Boy, oh, boy, it's good to know ya

Repeat Chorus

If you a fly gal get your nails done
Get a pedicure, get your hurh did
Boy, lift it up, let's make a toast-a
Let's get drunk, that's gon' bring us closer
Don't I look like a Halle Berry poster
See the Belvedere playin' tricks on ya
Girlfriend wanna be like me, never
You won't find a bitch that's even better
I make you hot as Las Vegas weather
Listen up close while I take it backwards
(Watch the way Missy like to take it backwards)
I'm not a prostitute, but I could give you what you want
I love your braids and your mouth full of floss
Love the way my ass go bum-bum-bum-bum
Keep your eyes on my bum-bum-bum-bum-bum
And think you can handle this gadong-a-dong-dong
Take my thong off and my ass go vroom
Cut the lights off so you see what I could do

Repeat Chorus:


Boys, boys, all type of boys
Black, white, Puerto Rican, Chinese boys
Why-thai,-thai-o-toy-o-thai-thai
Rock-thai,-thai-o-toy-o-thai-thai
Girl, girl, get that cash
If it's 9 to 5 or shakin' your ass
Ain't no shame, ladies do your thang
Just make sure you ahead of the game
Just 'cause I got a lot of fame supa
Prince couldn't get me change my name papa
Kunta Kinte a slave again, no sir
Picture black sayin', "Oh, yes a master"
Picture Lil' Kim dating a pastor
Minnie Me and Big Ren can out last ya
Who is the best, I don't have to ask ya
When I come out you won't even matter
Why you act dumb like "Uh, duh"
So you act dumb like "Uh, duh"
As the drummer boy go ba-rom-pop-pom-pom
Give you some-some-some of this Cinnabun

Repeat Chorus

To my fellas, ooooh
Good God, I like the way you work that
{*scratching: "Peter Piper" featuring Jam Master Jay*}
To my ladies, woo
You sure know how to work that, good God

http://www.thelyricarchive.com/lyrics/workit.shtml

[LincolnMcGrath]

149. Apparently just another "exception that proves the rule" lol

Hard to say really. I would say male hip hop artists outnumber female artists at least 50-1. If 10% of males do it and 10% of females do it, the number of males getting noticed will dominate the discussion.

[DavidFL]

155. I agree...

commercial hip hop is a male dominated format and does not have a history of having a balance of female artists like Top 40 or R&B.

Speaking for myself, as I listen to hip hop -- down south here we get mostly the crunk variety -- and I concede that the commercial market is sexist and denigrates women; no argument from me there. Women are talked about like possessions, ordered around, called various names like 'ho'and 'trick', and the image of the pimp is glorified. In videos, most of the women are portrayed like strippers, sluts and airheads -- or a combination thereof. And if there is a strong, intelligent Black woman, she's a "bitch" or the foil to the "hero" rapper.

Of course, there have been strong women rappers with positive messages, like Salt 'n Peppa and Queen Latifah, but neither has had longevity in the business like Snoop Dogg, Dr. Dre or L.L. Cool J. The only reason Lil' Kim hasn't been doing much is that she's under indictment right now by the Feds. So does this suggest that there's not really a market for positive women rappers, or are the record companies supplying what consumers want with artists like Lil' Kim or Missy? Are the record companies driving culture or simply a reflection of our culture itself? I think if we're going to place blame for commercial hip hop's treatment of women on someone, we need to know the source of it first.

However, going back to my original question, I'm wondering how the women here at DU feel about artists like Lil' Kim or Missy Elliot. Are they positive influences for young women in that they're in control of their image and the music they make, or just a part of the problem? I mean, when it comes down to it, Lil' Kim portrays herself as the stereotypical woman found in most hip hop videos and Missy's lyrics are just as explicit as any male artist's.

[naryaquid]

158. ......I don't know what you and Lincoln's parental status is, but ask

yourselves how you would like your young daughters - or sons, for that matter, buying (literally) these lyrics...maybe you can answer your own question..

[Jesus H. Christ]

195. I wouldn't have a problem with my kids by any of this music.

Nor would I have a problem with taking them to a museum.

But what would raise my eyebrows would be them buying fashion magazines with unrealistic fashion models and unnatural hair straightener.

[DavidFL]

246. Have you ever listened to urban radio?

Or Top 40 radio for that matter? Because if you did, you would know that the Khia, Lil' Kim and Missy Elliot songs listed above were played in heavy rotation when they were released as singles, with only the cursing bleated out. The "clean" version of Khia's song only had the hook reworked to "my neck, my back, lick my * just like that," where the * is a pause, but what she means is clear from the context. The DC song is currently in heavy rotation on urban radio because it's their new single and they're a popular group.

So it's not a matter or whether I would let my kids buy these CDs or not; they only have to turn on the radio or TV to find it. A point was made in the Essence articles by a young, Black woman in college, who noted that this kind of content is so pervasive, she's had friends harassed by guys, who don't know any better, because they think all young, Black women are like the ones they see in videos. But even if I were a totalitarian parent and prevented my kids from watching TV or listening to the radio while they're home, they're still going to hear about it from the other kids in school whose parents aren't so vigilant about what their kids are listening to or watching. So your answer is I would do with my kids exactly what my mom did when I was young: instill in them the values and morals I was given at an early age so they know when they come across content like this, that that's not what sex is like with someone you love, and that's not how a woman, or any person for that matter, should be treated.

Hell, I remember when I was coming up in junior high and 2 Live Crew put out "Me So Horny" and the ensuing controversy that caused. One station in my area would only play the cleaned up version after 10 P.M. and others wouldn't even play the cleaned up version at all, even though the "clean" lyrics to that song are relatively tame compared to the ones quoted above. My mom was not constantly in my room trying to find out if I was listening to it or not; she was a single mother raising two kids and working full time, she didn't have time for that. But because she taught me at an early age about sex, love and that women should be treated with respect, and not as sex objects, I knew well enough not to take any cues from 2 Live Crew on how to approach a girl or talk to one.

[naryaquid]

264. I think what your mother did was great...exemplary...It's just that

I remember one woman complaining that "It used to be that the culture worked to HELP you raise your kids...Now you've actually got to actively FIGHT the culture to raise them decently"....and I agree with her and I think that's wrong...In other words, I think what your mother did, and what other mothers are doing is great, perhaps the most important...But I think one has to address the public sphere also...I don't think it's ONLY the parent's job...although that's what these pornographers would tell you, at the same time they're doing everything they can to UNDO the parents message, while getting rich at it. It's just wrong.

[msgadget]

228. There isn't a strong market for positive, socially conscious rap at all,

unfortunately. L.L. and Will Smith are called sell-outs and Mos' Def just didn't make it that big in the industry. There ARE responsible message artists but I can't even call them by name because they don't get air time. Most artists throw a ballad or positive rhyme on their CD but that's about as good as we're likely to get unless there's a HUGE backlash against what's currently played and sold. I don't see that happening anytime soon.

[naryaquid]

240. ...I believe that you have sent me a couple of messages....For

reasons unknown, I've been unable to access them...They were not deleted by the mods and appear as "ignore" on my screen..even though I didn't put you on my "ignore" list...The moderators say they didn't do it either, so I have no idea as to what's going on....In any case, if you're so inclined, you can try re-sending your messages...I'd be interested in what you had to say.

[naryaquid]

172. ....Uh huh...and you really felt the need to list EVERY lyric to make

your point?...Please, I know sexual harrassement, however cloaked in phoney "intellectual interest", when I see it.....Maybe you should just have the balls to come out and say you don't agree with us?!...Is that too much for ya?

[DavidFL]

212. Excuse me?

Did the book you cite below, which I am not even familiar with and never heard of until you mentioned it, give you the ability to read minds too? You don't know me, you have no idea who I am, or what my personal attitudes toward women and women's rights are. In fact, I have not even expressed what my personal position on this matter is except that I said I, indeed, agreed that hip hop is a male dominated format and engages in rampant sexism. So where do you get off making the kind of pronouncements you have with that degree of certitude, or that I'm trolling here to sexually harass people?

I asked my questions because the Essence articles concern how women, particularly young, Black women are treated and portrayed in hip hop. The articles also raised the issue about artists like Lil' Kim, who use their bodies and sexually explicit lyrics to sell records, and whether this was any better than if the roles were reversed and she was exploited by a male artist. How do we know what Essence is talking about unless we look at the lyrics themselves? Further, being that I'm not a woman, or a young, Black woman, I was interested to know how this issue is viewed from a woman's perspective. Call me crazy, but I thought the best way to learn different perspectives, particularly when I'm not a member of the demographic in question, is to seek the opinion of those that are. But apparently that's engaging in sexism and sexual harassment. Forgive me for trying to advance my understanding, but before I post next time, I'll make sure I run my questions by you to make sure that their ok.

[naryaquid]

216. ...Sorry if I misread you....but I think I made my point well...

...As I said, it was NOT necessary for either you or "Lincoln"..to write every SINGLE WORD...Unless one is incredibly literal-minded, one or two stanzas will certainly "give the gist"....There are rules here about posting obscenity.

..In addition, I did give you serious answers to a couple of the submitted questions.

As for the rest,..sorry...but like most people, I go on my instincts, my intellect, and my experience...

[DavidFL]

250. Ah, the non-apology apology

Saying you're sorry so you don't look like a bully, but then making all kinds of qualifications to it so that it's apparent you're really not saying sorry at all.

As I noted in another post, all 4 of those songs are/were played in the above form on commercial urban and Top 40 radio with only the curse words blanked out -- except that the hook to "My Neck, My Back" was reworked slightly. So it's not like they're anything that isn't already out there in the public's collective conscious. Are the radio stations that played these songs out to sexually harass everyone too?

And no, you didn't give serious answers to my questions, you answered them based on your assumption that I have some kind of agenda to come here and sexually harass other posters, and ask leading questions to get the kind of answers I supposedly want, which, as I noted, you were way off base to make.

I could be petty and make the comment that your insticts, experience and intellect aren't serving you very well since you're going around making the just plain wrong assumptions that you did in your posts, and playing fast and loose with the term "sexual harassment" and who you are applying that label to, but I won't do that.

[naryaquid]

263. ......Please read my post again: I said "I'm sorry IF I misread you"

..I wasn't sure that I had..and I'm afraid your tight, defensive responses haven't done much to convince me otherwise...You remember the phrase about "protesting too much".??

Actually, I don't worry much about looking like a "bully"...I find you big guys tend to hold your own in that area...

As to my "plain wrong assumptions"? Gee,I don't know...It seems that at least one other poster,"Misunderestimator", came to the very same conclusions...Again, I'd suggest you read the rules about posting obscenity.

As for the rest of it, sorry, but I stand by it, and really have nothing else to say on the matter.

P.S...As to your admission that you "could be" petty?..I agree..In fact I'm actually pretty SURE of it!

[silvermachine]

270. You are correct about one thing...

You have had "nothing else to say on the matter" for about 100 posts now. You have no defense for your views whatsoever. None. Just keep calling anyone who disagrees with your views a misogynist, or someone that has problems with women. You could get a job with this administration. Pathetic.

[Name removed]

275. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[naryaquid]

177. ...Oh yeah...you really HAD to write out every lyric to "make your point",

Right?...wrong...I know the "let's intimidate them with obscenity" routine when I see or hear it...In fact it's a very old "strategy", if you will. It was even mentioned in a book written - by a man! - named Michael Korda "Male Chauvinism".

...What's particularly skanky is the way that you're trying to "pass it off" as part of some "sincere" intellectual inquiry...When in fact, you simply don't like the majority anti-mysogynist opinion expressed here, but lack the guts to do it directly.

...See similar message to your friend, DavidL....

[Jesus H. Christ]

197. Did you read the lyrics?

They were from a female musician singing about how she liked cunnilingus.

Do you find that intimidating and/or misogynistic?

[Misunderestimator]

215. I find it offensive to post such sexually explicit lyrics, no matter who

wrote them... it would have been enough to post a link to make your so-called point, that turned out to be no point at all. I found nothing in those lyrics that denigrates men. Your (and the other poster's) passive aggressive attempts to shock people into some sort of agreement with your defensive posture is ridiculous. I can't believe that these lyrics are allowed to stand as a post at DU, since they are clearly in violation of the rules.

[naryaquid]

225. ....THANK YOU, Misunderestimator...!....You said it better, and more

concisely than I did!....I did, by the way, send an "alert" to the moderater - but they did nothing, so it seems they "disagree" with us!..even though they do, as you mention, violate the rules.

[Jesus H. Christ]

226. Oh no! Sex!

Won't somebody think of the children! and all that.

But your right, explicit talk about sex doesn't denigrate men. Doesn't denigrate women either, when you think about it.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go put doillies on some table legs, so that they don't offend anybody.

[Misunderestimator]

232. I've read all your posts in this thread...

and have come to the conclusion that it would be a colossal waste of time to continue any "debate" with you.

[truthpusher]

234. I'm surprised you were able to make it...

...through all of the Jesus H. Christ posts, congratulations :crazy:

[naryaquid]

161. ...In answer to the first question in your second paragraph, I think

you're really asking if the women here "approve"...and I suspect you know what most women here would answer.

As to your last question...the answer is yes.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

140. This is long overdue

Women need to speak up and complain about the garbage our children are being bombarded with.

No, I am not advocating censorship. But I am advocating the use of our ability to tell stores we won't but from them if they sell this garbage.

[Ashamed_American]

142. Good for Essence.

Good for women, and good for our children.

[Imalittleteapot]

144. Best news I've heard this year.

I totally support Essence. The issue really hits home when you have young girls in the family.

[Merlot]

150. Essence is saying is how this affects YOUNG girls

That's what's important. Adults make their own decisions. But young girls - we have a responsibility to let them grow up at their own pace. Let them be children longer.

This isn't about prostution, or porn, or A&F catalogues. I don't think Essence is saying all rap is bad (I haven't read the article). But they are saying they will take a stand and have a viewpoint. They're allowed to do that.

[naryaquid]

157. ...They're saying demeaning women, young or old, is bad...

You need to read the article..

[barb162]

159. I am glad Essence is writing about this. Hip hop is anti-

female, treating women as sluts and it comes out of the foul-mouthed ignorant morons. Why any woman would support or buy any hip hop product is beyond me.

[naryaquid]

164. THANK YOU...but beware of the "defenders" here who will try and nickel

and dime you with "well ALL hip-hop isn't bad"...There are explicit FEMALE rappers too!...etc., etc.

[Owsley]

167. Broad brush strokes anyone?

Saying that ALL hip-hop is anti-woman is about as absurd as saying that all rock is anti-woman. Please don't confuse what I'm saying with defending the obvious misogynist nature of a large portion of so-called hip-hop (what I call rap). The hip-hop that I listen to, and the hip-hop that I would encourage anyone to listen to, is not anti-woman. You are falsely stereotyping an entire genre of music.

[izzybeans]

170. Of course

Right on! I support the magazine's efforts. I don't support the two factions on this thread reifying a genre of music as wholly one thing or the other. Why aren't we shooting for a sexuality where people aren't considered hoes? might it be more productive and non-prudish? Sex is fun, why feel guilty about it? A few adolescents can ruin the fun for everyone it seems.

[naryaquid]

180. ...I'm not falsley stereotypying.....I realize that there is some non-

mysogyinist rap/hip-hop...but as an earlier poster pointed out - that's NOT a reason to ignore that which is - and there is PLENTY of that...You came in rather late on this thread....Check the last, or next-to-last post by TruthPusher...My statements basically mirrored his.

[silvermachine]

182. You make it sound like...

...most rap or hip-hop does this. It doesn't. What it IS, is an easy target for the well meaning but uninformed.

[naryaquid]

183. ...I don't know, Silvermachine...I have this feeling that African-American

women are as "well-informed" about their own culture's music as anyone...I - and they - know when we're being insulted too...The biggest protests about these positions, whether it's on Mysogynist Rap or Porn, almost ALWAYS come from GUYS, who are in fact, NOT being defamed by it...Maybe you should try and - is it possible? - put yourself in WOMEN's shoes for a change!

[silvermachine]

186. Well....

<<Maybe you should try and - is it possible? - put yourself in WOMEN's shoes for a change!>>>

...while I can't see through a woman's eyes, I do try to do the right thing as much as I can. My main objection to what you've been saying, is that you are (or at least it comes across as) smearing an entire genre of music unfairly. Just as the performers that denigrate women do it to an entire gender. I'm not comparing your views, intention or attitude to their's btw.
I do believe that women have it much tougher than men, worldwide. There is injustice on an appalling scale. This is why I donate to Planned Parenthood, played at Rock Against Sexism benefits, been an abortion clinic escort, and helped my fiance with Take Back The Night Rallies (though I didn't march at the latter, because I was requested not to). It's just that you seem to think that you have to search mighty hard to find rap/hip-hop that isn't sexist. It is hardly the search for a needle in a haystack that you make it out to be. That's all.

edit for sp

[naryaquid]

188. ...all I'm saying is that you may be right, but that opinion doesn't

seem to be shared by about 85% on this thread, including many of the men...Seems hard to believe that we could ALL be "clueless"...including, of course, the Black women of Essence who are upset at what they're hearing...And that's really all I have to say on the matter!

[silvermachine]

190. OK....

....I might be right but if 85% don't share the opinion, then it's wrong? Whatever.:eyes: I guess it's easier to react than think.

[naryaquid]

192. .

I might be right but if 85% don't share the opinion, then it's wrong?

I didn't SAY you were wrong, but you seem to need absolute agreement, and I'm simply "not there"..nor, as I said, are many other people here.. If you can't take the disagreement or even the possibility of disagreement, I think you should just find some other forum where you're more likely to FIND agreement
..Now, as I said before...I'm outa here!

[silvermachine]

193. Are you sure...

You directed that at the right person? Sounds like you should turn that one around on yourself. Yeah, you are a real consensus builder.

[naryaquid]

196. Honey?...why don't you go fight with your girlfriend or something?

..I'm just not interested!

[silvermachine]

199. Not a very cogent argument....

...but just as bankrupt as the rest of your frothings. And, I can just imagine the reaction if I used "Honey", at you....sheeesh. Hypocrite. You proved my point.

[truthpusher]

189. It didn't sound to me that that was an overall smear on the genre...

...I'ts the extreme stuff that most are referring to here...I personally listen to a lot of the more thoughtful rap/hip-hop myself...There is an excellent Rap program (website) http://www.basementalism.com/ called basementalism here in Denver. They represent much of the non-big label artists on their program. I personally have not noticed much big-label support of the more "conscience' based groups. I do however feel a change coming - I think people are really getting sick of the other stuff.

[naryaquid]

198. Thanks again, Truthpusher....but I don't think this guy wants to listen..

[truthpusher]

201. Yikes!!

I feel like there are a couple of people posting here that are just waiting to get into an argument! I don't know why, but it seems like no one cares to get mad at me! I'm feeling kind of left out :shrug:

[naryaquid]

202. ...You poor guy!...truthfully, I think these dudes may have problems

with women...you know, we outspoken, "uppity" types..!

[Jesus H. Christ]

200. Looks like an overall smear to me.

"Hip hop is anti-female, treating women as sluts and it comes out of the foul-mouthed ignorant morons. Why any woman would support or buy any hip hop product is beyond me."

An overall smear and, oh my, telling women what they should and shouldn't do. Hmm.

[Owsley]

224. I'm with you...

I understand where you're coming from. I definitely agree that there is a vile form of rap that exists which, unfortunately, represents and perpetuates many misogynist and "anti-female" perspectives. Please let it be known that on this topic, we agree.

What I do have a problem with is this statement:

"I am glad Essence is writing about this. Hip hop is anti-female, treating women as sluts and it comes out of the foul-mouthed ignorant morons. Why any woman would support or buy any hip hop product is beyond me."

I also listen to basementalism...awesome program. The MosDef show here in Boulder was incredible. Unfortunately this type of hip-hop (legit hip-hop) doesn't often crack mainstream music. Because of this, people are unaware that it even exists and we are then met with generalized statements like the one above that completely stereotype an entire genre of music. I'm not defending the likes of 50 cent here. What I'm trying to do is defend hip-hop.

Perhaps a list needs to be started that includes the other hip-hop? The kind we like to listen to? This way if people want to check it out, they can.

I'll start with Talib Kweli.

Owsley

[truthpusher]

227. Here's a few...

Black Eyed Peas - Bridging the Gap
Blackalicious - Blazing Arrow
Common - Electric Circus.
The Coup - Steal This Double Album
Dead Prez - Let's Get Free
Dilated Peoples - Expansion Team
Hi-Tek - Hi-Teknology
Jurassic 5 - Power in Numbers
The Pharcyde - Plain Rap
The Roots - Phrenology
Talib Kweli - Quality

Some are better than others, but a good place to start - I got the list from this link: http://www.fact-index.com/a/al/alternative_hip_hop.html

[Jesus H. Christ]

229. Pharcyde?

Ya Mama


Yo man you gotta be(you know you gotta be) on the dime
man what's up with that
yo Rochot yeah word up Rochet
uh, we need some brothers to be like droppin knowledge and shit like
that
yo man why don't you quit talkin all that stuff
and do something about it
you know what I'm saying
(don't know quite what they're saying)
oh yeah why don't you do that right now


brothas and sistas


yo mom is so fat
how fat is she
yo moma is so big and fat that she can get busy
with 22 burritos when times is rough
I seen her in the back of Taco Bell with handcuffs
the sad fact,(what) yo moma smokes crack(what)
she got a burnin' yearnin and there's no turnin' back
her knuckles drag down to the ground when she walks
spit comes out that bitch mouth when she talks
sitting on a mountain top tooting on a flizute
riding on a horse drinking whiskey out of bizoots
she's got the wings and teeth of an african bat
her middle name is mud bone and on top of all that


yo moma's got a glass eye with a fish in it (x3)
yo moma, yo moma, yo moma


yo moma looks like she's been in a car with some rocks
with some big butt stones suckin' dirt out of socks
held up the ice cream truck with her sleeve
got it drivin back up she's torn and suckin
she's rhymin' root and toot she stole my loot and my suit
she may have the muscles but no, she's not pretty
oh what a pity
got the glass titty filled up with kool-aid just for the kiddies
on the clip butt naked tootin' on a flute
ridin' on a horsie drinking whiskey out of boots
she's got the teeth and the wings of an african bat
her middle name is mud bone and on top of all that


yo moma's got a wooden leg that's real, real, thick(x3)
yo moma, yo moma, yo moma


I'm thinking about your mother doing funky things
I went to your house and she licked me on the cheek
I said excuse me lady but, I remember seeing you at the paladium way
back in September
cause you was beat by simple lou rawls
in the bright red boxer drawers
you said your moms was pretty and young
but she's old as dirt and got hair on her tongue your mom
your mom, she uses roots
I saw her ridin a horsie drinking whiskey out of boots
she's got the wings and teeth of an african bat
her middle name is mud bone and on top of all that


yo moma's got a peg leg with a kick stand (x2)
I said yo moma's got a peg leg with a kick stand
yo moma, yo moma, yo moma


yo mom is so fat
how fat is she
we rolled up her back to get some burgers from wendy's
and her skates went flat I got stuck in her butt crack
they thought I was lost but, I was caught by the g strap
heaven forbid a giant fart would give way cause
that would blow me round the world in a day
we drove into the drive in and she didn't have to pay
cause we dressed her up to look just like a chevrolet
sittin on the mountain top
tooting on a flizute, riding on a horse drinking whiskey out of bizoots
with the wings and the teeth of an african bat(bat, bat, bat, bat)
her middle name is mud bone and on top of all that


yo moma's got an afro, with a chin strap(x2)
I said yo moma's got an afro with a chin strap
yo moma, yo moma, yo moma


yo moma's got snake skin teeth
yo moma was making sex threats to rickie bell
yo moma be walking down sunset with 99cent sign on her back
yo moma's a sell out nigga
yo moma's a pop tune
yo moma's glasses are so thick she can look into a map and see people
waving at her
his mother be hook fishing,with a hook and reel in the frozen foods
section
jay's moma got playdough teeth
yo moma be eating daytons like now and laters and shit.
Yo mama was an extra on the Simpson's and shit.
Yo mama is so fat you can't see her legs it just looks like she's
gliding across the floor....

[truthpusher]

230. PG-13 Stuff all the way n/t

[Jesus H. Christ]

233. It's got the word "bitch" and it's disrespectful to a woman.

and it's rap.

That's enough to be considered misogynist to a number of people in this thread.

[truthpusher]

235. I have no problem with the word...

...bitch, so long as it is not used as part of an intimidating attack on women (and men in some cases). In regards to disrespect/respect to women, all I can say is...lead by example.

[Jesus H. Christ]

236. See, there you go.

Neither do I.

But a number of women here believe that the word "bitch" is inherently misogynistic, and that rap songs are misogynistic since they have the word "bitch" in them.

[truthpusher]

238. I think most of the people here...

...(probably including yourself) understand when a word like 'bitch' is used as a commentary, parody, or an expression other than vile contempt.

This is what it boils down to for me...

I witnessed many years ago, a young lady I was with at a bar totally freak out when we were listening to an NWA song. I was taken back because I never really thought about how this music affects certain people. From what I understood, the song was about rape and the girl I was with had gone through the experience herself. I would never deny anybody the right to express themselves with words. However, I witnessed first hand how much they can hurt someone.

Just a thought.

[naryaquid]

231. ...Thanks, Owsley....the "anti-mysogynists" here appreciate your support.

[barb162]

209. "falsely stereotyping " BULL!

[Owsley]

221. How much hip-hop do you listen to?

Do you even know how diverse a musical genre it really is?

Owsley

[barb162]

252. as little as possible these days; I heard enough after a few

hours and when you listen to the violence, sexism, etc., for a few hours you don't have to keep listening to it. Applicable to Bush/Cheney too. Do you keep listening to Fox? Bill O'Reilly? Ann Coulter? What I am saying here is do you keep listening to Bush and these others(the same sick crap over and over)in the hope for a line of brilliance or caring for the rest of the human race? You KNOW it won't happen. Likewise, someone standing there talking about beating up a "ho" (whore) is not my kind of entertainment. I find it disgustingly misogynistic.

[Owsley]

259. You're just not getting it.

I've read your responses to a few of the thought lines in this thread, and you're obviously missing what a couple of us are saying. We AGREE that there is a malevolent form of rap that exists. What you can't seem to comprehend is that there is a WHOLE OTHER part of hip-hop that is completely different than that which you vehemently oppose. You are falling victim to what many would consider a very narrow (read: republican) trait of generalizing a large population according to your limited exposure to it. There have been plenty of suggestions of artists/bands for you to listen to. I myself have suggested artists that I would encourage you to play for you and your kids (if you have any, i don't know if you do). All that we are suggesting is that you haven't listened to all that hip-hop has to offer.

And I'm pretty damn sure that there are some hip-hop artists who would be appalled at the fact that you equated listening to them with listening and/or watching fox news/ann coulter/bill o'reilly. It only shows how little you actually know about the genre.

Owsley

[silvermachine]

181. You haven't a clue....

...not a clue.

[naryaquid]

184. ...About what, pray tell?

[barb162]

203. LOL, a few months ago a few people started in on me because

I am anti-rap, hip-hop, etc. The defenders of this music would have one believe these "musicians" are on the same level of Mozart

[naryaquid]

205. ...I know...The encouraging thing here is that a lot of guys are coming

out in support of us...The others?..well..sometimes it takes awhile to evolve!

[barb162]

208. "Guys are coming out in support of us" GOOD!!!! n/t

[naryaquid]

219. ...Yesss!!

[Jesus H. Christ]

217. Mozart? Now there's a sexist.

Take Cosi fan tutte, for example.

And this all goes to prove my original point. Crouch and many people on this thread don't really give a shit about sexism and misogyny. They're just cultural prudes and snobs. They hate rap because they're xenophobic.

[barb162]

254. yeah right, sure, uh-hmm, but he knew a few things about

something called music.

[Tomee450]

220. I agree

with you about Hip-hop. I can't stand it and don't believe it's really music.

[truthpusher]

223. That really is a matter of taste...

...I enjoy a little bit of Rap the same way I enjoy a little heavy-metal, a little jazz, a little-pop, a little electronic, etc., etc.

This thread was started in hopes of discussing what the NY Daily and Essence articles were talking about. This is not a Hip-Hop bashing thread.

...and beware, there are a lot of very excitable hip-hop fans on this thread - your probably going to get flamed a bit for the 'not really music' comment :mad:

[FizzFuzz]

256. Hi barb! Personally, I like hip-hop.

I have eclectic tastes, pretty much (well except for polka, broadway musicals, and opera..but I digress).

For me, I just hate misogyny, wherever I see it. Hip-hop has alot of blatant, scary misogyny, so that is easy to deconstruct but I want to kick the ass of the soft misogyny that gets lauded as all-amerikkkan wholesome family fun. Football, cheerleaders, sleazy chain restaurants, comedians and humor writers who base their shtick on slagging women, men's entertainment magazines that can't just be horny, but have to accompany any woman with insulting trivializing chatter.

I hate to see this thread get waylaid by arguments about who is a real connosseur of music. Musical sophistication is not the point of Essence's critique.

And here's something weird--I laid into an article posted here that was some humor/sports guy writing for espn. Typical crap, praising male sports figures, reducing all women to bimbos and speculating about their sexual value. I went off, explaining just how I saw that kind of material. Mind you, I did not insult the original poster. I made it clear that my anger was aimed at the espn writer. The thread got locked. (it was a short thread, my post was the only "controversial" one there. And it was pretty tame.) Now, why would that get locked, while much more insulting or ugly material, directed personally at other posters, not get locked? Is it because it's ok to insult women, but not men?

by the way, I don't advocate locking. I would prefer the locked thread not have gotten locked.

[Owsley]

260. It's not about being a connoiseur.

What you aren't understanding is that it isn't like the few of us defending hip-hip are trying to prove that we have better musical tastes than the rest of you. (The more I read from people trying to claim that hip-hop isn't music, the more I actually want to debate musical taste, pure and simple. Another topic for another time...perhaps the lounge.) There is a complete reluctance from your crowd to comprehend the fact that we (royal we?) are defending a part of the overall hip-hop genre that runs counter to everything some despise in mainstream rap/hip-hop.

Hip-hop is music. Hip-hop is great music. If you can't see that, I can't argue with you.

Owsley

[FizzFuzz]

261. Um, you completely missed the point of my post.

I am totally confused by your response to me. I said I LIKE hip-hop and I have eclectic tastes.

That was all I said about hip-hop and it was only a small sidebar to the point of my post, which was about misogyny. Did you read any of that? I specifically said that amerikkkan culture is full of misogyny and I was separating that point from the thread drift towards music. Sexism is not specific to black hip-hop, white hip-hop or Dick fucking Clark. What it has to do with is critiques of woman-bashing being consistently dismissed, even while other forms of discrimmination are taken very seriously.

And what the fuck is this with "my crowd"? What crowd are you placing me in? and why are you obsessing about my taste in music? And lastly, do you think whining about imagined musical slights is more important than looking seriously at this damn culture that everywhere sees women as bimbos, bitches, ho's, skanks or baby machines?

Seriously man, I know I'm jumping down your throat but what do you expect when you completely jump off on some weird tangent unrelated to anything I said and then have the nerve to insist that personal taste in music is more important than culturally approved trashing of half the species?

[barb162]

266. hi fizzfuzz, as usual, totally agree! (And Happy New Year too)

[Name removed]

204. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

206. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[truthpusher]

210. NO!!!!

Please don't sick them on me! I'm kidding....Bring em' on!

[Name removed]

213. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[thekoan]

242. 'kay... you're ignoring this, but...

...i'm really trying to figure out exactly what i said that was "cowardly"... i mean, did you even read my post?

...or is this some attempt at humor that i'm just not getting?

[truthpusher]

207. Excellent mention...

...the bands/groups you list (the ones I am familiar with) come from what I see as the 'enlightened pack' of the genre. These folks are artists in my opinion.

Getting back to the topic (that not being the attack of people who are not as aware of hip-hop as you are)...You mentioned...

"...for your information, there is a lot of hip hop that doesn't badmouth women... there is a lot of hip-hop that is uplifting... there is a lot of hip-hop that constantly calls out other artists for their misogynist/violent lyrics... "

Does this mean that you are in agreement with the ones who call out 'other artists for their misogynist/violent lyrics...'?

Isn't that what we are really talking about here?

What do you think about the women who participated in the Essence article?

What do you think about what they are trying to do? Is it a good thing in your opinion?

[thekoan]

243. well, i'm all for improving the quality of the music...

...truth be told, the misogynist/violent lyrics don't affect me either way... that said, it does sadden me to see hypersexualized 12 year olds...

...do i think these women will accomplish much with their seminars and town meetings? no. i think it'll be like other meetings of that ilk: everyone who attended will leave feeling enlightened and as though he/she's accomplished something... but the larger culture will not change...

...people act as though this is an entirely externally inflicted blight... they act as though there was no violence/misogyny within the black community and the americian macrocosm until hip hop popped onto the scene...

...the way to tackle the problem is to attack the problem at the root... change the culture... change the way we raise our children... change our society's attitude towards sex and women... attacking mainstream hiphop is like pruning the top leaves of a tree...

...that said, yeah... i do kind of agree with what they're trying to accomplish... i think they should get people to buy albums that are better in spirit and (more importantly, imho) QUALITY...

[truthpusher]

249. I hate to break it down to this...

...but truth be told...I'ts all about getting laid. when you mention breaking it down to the root...these women mentioned in the Essence article are doing exactly that. From a young mans point of view, what is on their mind (no matter what sexual orientation) is sex. If a young woman says, hey it's all right if you call me a bitch and a whore I'll still have sex with you, what does that do? It reinforces that behavior in the young man and desensitizes the young woman...leading to more of the same. Now if the Essence thing is part of an overall zeitgeist that brings a change to the hearts of young people...guess what? The young men are still going to get laid! They may even notice that they will get even more action if they stop the Ho and Bitch stuff. I was young once (I'm 38 now, not old, but definitely not a kid) and no matter how I paint the picture of my youth...there was that constant need for the affection of women. If women start holding out for some better treatment, there will be a change. Frankly it's what makes the world go round.

[FizzFuzz]

251. Misogyny has been addressed by many feminists

over the years. Hip-hop is just one example of a few sensationalistic shlock artists getting alot of publicity. Publicity driven by white owned radio/labels/entertainment mega-corporations.
Look at heavy hitters like Howard Stern. There's some misogyny for ya. But any complaints about him have been about "obscenity", and those who say it's worse to bank on reducing women to nothing but t-w-a-t than to say "fuckshitgoddamn", get ridiculed and discarded.

It just seems that this article by Essence, which happens to be a black women's magazine, focusing on a musical phenomenon coming from black culture, is getting wide publicity in ways that other women protesting for women's dignity have not received. So it looks as if it's all about the black community, when it's not.

[barb162]

211. you are an imbecile

Obviously you don't listen to the most popular hip-hop artists

[Jesus H. Christ]

218. Obviously neither do you.

nt

[barb162]

253. A few minutes of that shit is enough

[thekoan]

241. actually, i do...

...i mean, i don't support them by buying their albums and whatnot... but i keep abreast of what's going on in the mainstream... it doesn't necessarily agree with my aesthetics, though, so i don't focus on it...

...but, if necessary, we can discuss the mainstream stuff... yes, a large amount of mainstream hiphop is violent and misogynistic... it's crap... but it's apparently what the kids want... just like they want substanceless bubble gum pop and boybands... just like they want soulless, shitty, non-innovative rock... does that excuse it? no...

...my main beef with the original posting is that its wording (intentionally or not) groups all facets of a diverse genre under the label 'misogynistic'... to make such a statement is (imho) the height of idiocy... my whole sentiment can be summed up as: shut the hell up if you don't know what you're talking about...

...the genre is just as valid as any other musical form that has come before it... hip hop, like jazz and rock, is a distinctly american art form (with roots in the black community) that has gone on to affect the world as a whole... call it what you will... like it or loathe it... but you've got to respect it...

...which reminds me... there's some more groups you need to check before you decide to stereotype a whole genre... check tribe called quest, blackalicious, jurrasic 5, pharcyde, heiroglyphics crew... and again, it goes on and on... so maybe you should just shut the hell up about a genre about which you apparently know nothing...

[barb162]

255. For starters, I am not stereotyping a "whole genre" but for

finishers why don't you shut the hell up as you obviously have a tiny little brain that does not perform the process of deductive reasoning very well at all. Imbecile.

[KTM]

258. And THAT is how you lose an argument.

There's a lot of posts here about the "anti-misogynists" and the pending attacks of such close-minded people... but the only attacks in this entire thread, usch as this one, are directed at posters who simply didnt agree with you - there was no attack, no insult, you just dont like what he thinks. Isnt that exactly what y'all keep saying about JHC and others ?

The problem is, BOTH sides are knee-jerking.

[barb162]

267. "there was no attack, no insult,...."

You happen to be incorrect on this. Take another look farther up the thread as the name-calling and insults were started by another poster now on my ignore list. As to losing and winning arguments, I think the topic was more about expressing opinion.

[widmn]

191. Advertising in general aims their might at kids!!!!!

It is so twisted. All the crap cereals, fashions, crap music and toys that big companies aim their billion dollar ads and powerful marketing ploys at. There should be a law against it. I believe it is totally unfair advertising pitting adult marketing professionals at kids minds. Shameful. Shameful.Shameful. ShamefulShameful. ShamefulShameful. ShamefulShameful. ShamefulShameful. ShamefulShameful. ShamefulShameful. ShamefulShameful. ShamefulShameful. ShamefulShameful. ShamefulShameful. ShamefulShameful. ShamefulShameful. ShamefulShameful. Shameful

[MrSlayer]

262. Rap has been shit for years, good for them.

Rap really began to suck in the early 90's when it turned into bling and "bitches" exclusively. The old school stuff with the political message or just a raw report from the streets was so much better.

[Senator Lamb]

268. this issue goes beyond ideology

so many times I see issues divide along party lines, republican or democrat, conservative or liberal. yet I always thought women issues actually made strange bed fellows, pardon the pun. Conservative/religious value folks who are appalled at things such as "bitches and hos" in rap videos and feminists who do not like to see women demeaned or seen as sexual objects fight against this culture. It has also brought together liberals and conservatives who are more "libertarian minded" and of course horny guys on both sides who like to see women treated this way. As a moderate 19 year old, I must say this culture we live in has gotten out of hand, maybe im old fashioned. Then again, maybe thats why I dont have a girlfriend

[maddezmom]

276. locking

This thread is no longer providing productive discussion.