White House warns U.S. could be like Europe if taxes rise

[stevedeshazer]

WASHINGTON, Jan 7 (Reuters) - A top White House economic adviser warned on Friday the U.S. economy could become "more like those of Europe" if taxes were raised to stabilize Social Security for the long haul.

"That is not the direction we should be heading," the chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers, Gregory Mankiw, told a conference in Philadelphia sponsored by the American Economic Association.

A text of his remarks was issued in Washington.

Mankiw said the Bush administration considered Social Security reform the single greatest fiscal challenge the country faces and said it had to be reformed in order to remain sound. The White House already has served notice that overhauling the retirement program is a priority and wants to set up private savings accounts as part of it.

link: http://www.reuters.com/financeNewsArticle.jhtml?type=bondsNews&storyID=7269512
======================================================================
more like Europe? The strategery is becoming more clearer....

[lazarus]

1. Okay

The Euro is kicking the dollar's ass, but we want that to get worse?

[JohnOneillsMemory]

131. UPenn Study: US Ranks 27th in World Social Progress due to Poverty

Using data provided primarily by national governments to the United Nations and the World Bank, Estes's study measures the ability of nations to meet the needs of their residents for:

>> health, education, human rights, political participation, population growth, improved women's status, cultural diversity and freedom from "social chaos." <<


http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2003-07/uop-ur2071703.php

U.S. ranks 27th in world social progress; Africa in dire straits

FRANKFURT -- Denmark and Sweden lead the world in social progress, Afghanistan is at the bottom of the list and the United States ranks 27th among 163 nations, according to the latest Index of Social Progress.
These "world social report" figures were released today by Richard Estes of the University of Pennsylvania School of Social Work at the Fifth International Conference of the International Society for Life Quality Studies. Addressing social-development and quality-of-life specialists at the conference, Estes said, "A handful of nations are doing very well, but many are struggling just to meet basic needs. The last decade has seen a sharp deterioration in overall life quality for vast segments of the world's population, especially for people living in the poorest nations of Africa and Asia. Even people in previously well-off countries are not doing as well today."

The nations comprising the top 10 are Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Luxembourg, Germany, Austria, Iceland, Italy and Belgium, and the bottom 10 are Afghanistan, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Sierra Leone, Angola, Liberia, Niger, Guinea, Chad and the Democratic Republic of Congo (formerly Zaire).

In the U.S., Estes, who has researched world social development for 30 years, found the pace of social development to be "on hold" since 1980, putting the U.S. on the same level as Poland and Slovenia in the current "report card."

"Chronic poverty is the greatest threat to social progress in the United States," Estes said. "More than 33 million Americans -- almost 12 million of them children -- are poor." "Contrary to public perception," Estes said, "the majority of poor in the United States are members of established family households who work full-time and are white. No other economically advanced country tolerates such a level of poverty."

>snip<

more...

Um, Europe was nearly destroyed by fascism and religious wars so they turned to health and human services to recover from the fascism financed and inflamed by the US power elite like Prescott Bush, Henry Ford, the DuPonts, and the Dulles brothers. The US population hasn't yet had their fill of destruction because that's something that happens to 'evil-doers' on TV and plus maybe they'll win the capitalism lottery and get rich before they die from no healthcare!

[ihelpu2see]

146. so true, the admin. puts out the chicken littles reporting

that the sky will fall if we don't fix Social S. or if we don't get rid of Saddam. The truth of the matter is the majority of Europe has cradle to grave health care and public education thru 4 years of college, these are countries that have lower infant mortality rates than the US and a better educated work force than the US.

But we have the largest military spending in the world, so we can take what we want when ever we want...... I firmly believe the former is much more honorable than a 10 billion dollar missile defense system already being deployed in Alaska that has not had one successful test and more noble than lying to your own tax payer about WMDs! But a little more than 50% of America did not get the memo on Nov. 2nd

[bpilgrim]

150. Bring It On!!!

wooHoo! the sooner the better :evilgrin:

peace

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. no, it won't be

you see in Europe they have progressive taxation, not tax cuts for the rich. And the poor don't mind the value added tax much because health care is free, and they realize that that tax pays for health care.

[JDPriestly]

25. Health care isn't "free."

At least, when I used to live there, if you were working, you paid for it with a payroll contribution. If you weren't working, you were still insured without paying for it. Health care was excellent -- much more accessible than it is here. I could choose any doctor -- no government interference there. Here, I can only choose a doctor who is enrolled in my "plan," so my choices are extremely limited. There, all the doctors were on the same "plan," thus the wider selection.

I owe a lot to excellent European doctors and hospitals. European health insurance, however, covered a lot of items -- like access to spas (water treatments) and cures (vacations for health reasons) that we would view as a waste of time.

As for retirement, my impression when I was there was that everyone had a right to a pension. People usually retired at 55 and could actually live on their retirement checks, although not really well. When I was there in the 1970s, I had a neighbor who was quite elderly and who had been living on her pension since the 1930s (yes, that's right 1930s), when she had agreed to quit working and take her pension in order to give someone else her job. Interesting concept. I always thought she must have had a rather pointless, boring life. Fortunately, she was an exception.

My European friends are doing very well, thank you. Note that the number of Europeans vacationing in the area hit by the Tsunamis was much higher than that of Americans. They have more time and money for travel that we do. The government guarantees that employees get fabulous vacation benefits. Here, you might get a week the first year in a job -- if you are lucky.

I'm not advocating for the European system. There are (or at least used to be) drawbacks. There was less innovation, less willingness to take chances, fewer opportunities for ordinary people to advance. That may have changed. But, in spite of the apparently higher taxes, ordinary people get a bigger a portion of the national wealth than here. I believe that European CEOs are not nearly as well paid as American ones.

Yes, Europeans pay higher taxes, but they get their money's worth. And, they know where it goes.

In America,the money I pay for private health insurance goes into a black hole, and I have no idea what happens to it. Also, I only have it as long as I pay my monthly contributions. If I became disabled or sick, couldn't work, ran out of money and really needed health care, I wouldn't have insurance no matter how much I paid in or for how many years. What a swindle compared to the European system.

[DBoon]

44. I'll second the point about vacations

On those (rare) occasions when we go on vacations to pricy locales, we notice right away that the only other Americans are retired professionals - people with money and no obligations to children. Anytime we see a family with kids it is almost always European - Italian, German, French.

[Pachamama]

114. When I worked in Europe in the 90's, I had 6 weeks vacation & great Bene's

I was working for Microsoft and at one point when I was in Southern Germany, I not only got the benefits of the 6 weeks vacation, but Southern Germany/Bavaria (being Catholic primarily) had every single "Saint Somebody" day, so in addition, I had many "holidays". This isn't to say people don't work hard - they do...but they also spend time with their friends and family and they value and treasure that so much more than anything. Also, I had great health insurance and benefits. Yes, my taxes were higher than in the US, but you know, I didn't mind....I knew that not only for the social good of the communities and the country in which I lived that money went, but I also knew that if god forbid something happened to me (ranging from a terrible disability or poor health, loss of job or pregnancy) that I would be taken care of. The "security" in that, the lack of stress, makes for a much happier life. People are much more loyal then to their employers and when they are reminded of the alternatives ie. "the way it is in the US", they complain a lot less....Funny enough, it was always the very wealthy that complained the most, yet, they really had so much...The middle class realized how important it was to contribute and sure, there may have been "freeloaders" on the system, but they are a minority and the reality is that the system "works". The greatest problems that Germany has faced was when East Germany was re-united and West Germany had to absorb that population and the costs, something that hadn't been planned for.

Meanwhile, my scandinavian cousins who have babies, get a year plus off at 1/2 pay, and then their partner can do the same to be home and stay with the kids...It is not unusual to walk down a street in Stockholm and see a man pushing a baby stroller with a 1 year old and and 3 year old by his side. That's because his wife/partner is at work after having just finished her year off with the kids and now its his turn....Kids get raised by their parents, the companies, community and gov't encourage this and all are benificiaries....Imagine the loyalty to companies! Imagine how well children are being cared for! Society benefits...

On Edit: Did I mention that College Tuition is free there too? :eyes:

[Just Me]

47. To me, that sounds like a more secure, free and happy life,...

,...and verily worth the "sacrifice".

In my opinion, the neoconimperialists spew "Old Europe" because they face an intimidating NEW EUROPE that is advancing by serving all its people.

[Lizzie Borden]

133. To me it sounds like Heaven.

I have lupus (Chronic life long illness) and I'd be quite pleased to have the European system. It sure beats ours.

[jaime_176]

97. I'm for being like europe then

I'm not advocating for the European system. There are (or at least used to be) drawbacks. There was less innovation, less willingness to take chances, fewer opportunities for ordinary people to advance.

I don't see enough of that sort of thing happening here to worry about losing it for a 35-hour workweek, paid vacations and a good healthcare system.

[Heidi]

143. You got that right.

Health care, here in Switzerland, anyway, most assuredly is not free, but the price of mandatory health insurance is based in part on one's income, which answers the U.S. dilemma of what happens if you become disabled, ill or otherwise unable to pay for your insurance. We could do that in the U.S., too, if our elected officials weren't so beholdin' to big business (like Big Pharma and the insurance companies).

(Edited for typo.)

[Sandpiper]

3. You mean we'd have better healthcare?

Sigh...yet another pitch to the fears of xenophobic bigots.

[Cha]

4. What about Argentina that went

bankrupt from privatization of SS?


Those fuckers in the chimphouse better not mess with my and millions of others' Social Security!!

[hatrack]

5. What? 30 days paid vacation? Health care? Child care?

Free college tuition? What are we waiting for?

[arcane1]

7. my thoughts EXACTLY

gods forbid we become more like Europe....

[a kennedy]

70. You really don't have to worry about becoming more like Europe

they're already here, they own just about every name brand in America. I heard today that if anyone would have invested in the Euro when it first came out, they'd be 50% something better then the US stock market!!! So, no problem here, Europe, they're still kicking our butts!! LOL a revolution, yeah right.

[Sandpiper]

9. You forgot Paid Family Leave

Yes, things are pretty terrible in Europe, where they say Europeans work to live and Americans live to work.

[hollowdweller]

15. Legal Week like Holland too! Jack up those taxes! I'm waiting!

[indepat]

18. And a strong currency for lagnaippe: all are but small prices to pay for

being made safe.

[InvisibleBallots]

28. how do those socialists have so much money anyway?

I was in the EU two months ago, and everywhere I went I saw tall healthy looking people driving around in expensive cars and wearing designer clothing and sipping 5 Euro lattes. If that's socialism, call me a socialist.

[Lorien]

36. That's what I was thinking

more like Europe? Woo-hoo! I'm in!

[Hillary08]

62. I know I don't have 30 days vacation now!

Two weeks is it. Hard to go too far in 2 weeks.

[Tight_rope]

80. No Shit...sounds good to me...bring on the higher taxes!

I least with paying higher taxes I know that I'll be reaping the good benefits I "SHOULD" be getting, unlike now. I'm paying high taxes and not get shit.

[Malva Zebrina]

6. Yup, Europe is the white man's burden

and the hated bad guy with the black hat.

George Bush, the half illiterate wannabee fighter pilot, costume loving, less than intelligent fascist leader, is the guy with the white hat.

What must we do, dear Americans, to avoid becoming more like Europe?

They, on the whole, did not become our allies in Bush's illegal invasion that killed 100,000 innocent people most of them children and women.

Bad Europe!

[tridim]

8. Who's talking about raising taxes?

The Democrats have no power, so it can't be them. Makes me wonder why the WH is floating this pre-emptive meme? Is Bush going to raise taxes and blame it on the Democrats?

[dweller]

11. wasn't that Poppy's downfall?

raising taxes?

read my lips, etc.

dp

[punpirate]

26. Because a lot of the more sensible economists...

... have suggested that what few problems the SS system has can be solved by raising the cut-off level for deduction of payroll taxes. To Bush, raising the level from $90k this year to $115-120K is raising taxes on everyone. Well, everyone he knows.

What he would rather do, actually, is run huge deficits out of the general fund to pay the initial shortfalls for privatization, so some future Democratic president will have to raise taxes, for which the Republicans will then blame the tax-and-spend Democrats.

[Just Me]

52. It's for purposes of justifying HUGE DEFICITS.

Unfortunately, gullible Americans will "buy" into the NO TAXES thingy unknowingly bankrupting themselves and their country,...unknowingly giving guaranteed credit to those who are paid by their mere vote.

If only the Americans realized that FAIR taxation is what holds this country together,...grows this formerly great nation.

But,...they are being deceived, manipulated, betrayed and USED!!!

Welcome to the psy-ops campaign to destroy America.

[underpants]

107. Not that anyone asked but W said he wouldn't raise payroll taxes

I wasn't aware that anyone had proposed it.

[Pachamama]

118. W won't raise taxes..he's going to cut the few remaining benefits we have

Social Security is his target....oh yeah, your clean air and water too, because while we probably all take it for granted, it costs a lot of money to regulate and enforce and do cleanup...and with less enforcement of corporate polluters (and less tax money from them) something else will have to give too....hmmm, what could that be?

[Viking12]

129. RW Formula: No cut in taxes = Higher Taxes

At least that was the formula * used during the campaign. "John Kerry voted for higher taxes 700 million gazillion times....blah, blah, blah"

[Placebo]

10. And they say that like it's a bad thing.

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[FreakinDJ]

12. Wish it was like some countries in Europe

Cradle to grave health care

Free college education for its citizens

and solid UNTAMPERED WITH retirement funding

actually those countries get a lot more return for their tax dollar then we do. When you add up all the additional cost we burden (because our government is giving away our tax dollars to corporations) we pay the same as those countries in taxes and receive LESS FOR OUR MONEY

The corporations are ripping us off and they use our own tax dollars to do it

[jakpalmer]

155. The problem is

that some of these European governments are currently leaning towards the 'US way'. They'd like our system to be more like yours (yuck).

[NC_Nurse]

13. We'll never be that cool...

Americans have turned into a bunch of John Wayne wannabes....we could never be as tolerant, progressive, intellectual or reflective as Europeans at this point. Too busy persecuting gays, women, people of color and of course buying useless shit and watching the latest court case on TV....sigh. :eyes:

[hollowdweller]

19. Under the surface I'm not sure they are any less bigoted, but the average

person has a much better life, and since everybody is more in the middle, or at least not on the bottom there is a lot less reason to scapegoat when economic times get bad than in the US where there is less cushion for the working folks.

[SweetLeftFoot]

87. Euros

I agree with you when you say that on average Europeans are not any less bigoted than the average Yank. The difference is that Europeans have the experience of where such bigotry can and will lead, so usually try a lot harder to prevent such bigotry spilling over into violence.

That said, Saddam Hussein didn't attack their Trade Towers cause he hates them for their freedoms did he? (Sarcasm)

[bluedonkey]

20. Don't despair

this country is still young! Look how long it took for Europe to get to where they are now.
We have a good chance,just keep chipping away on those so-called values,ridicule them,whatever it takes.Just don't give up!

I grew up in the 'old country'and it wasn't as easy as it looks now.

[KDLarsen]

98. You've got that right!

"this country is still young! Look how long it took for Europe to get to where they are now."

Just look at the countless revolutions etc. that was fought, both the barbaric & the peaceful, to get rid of despots & dictators over the years. It's only really in the last 100 years or so that we have been able to reap what our ancestors sown.

[0007]

124. .....and the last 100 years has been flushed down the toilet

So I guess its now time for civil disobedience, eh?

The disposition of Americans to defy and resist authority of this administration is in place. It is now just a question of when!

[reprobate]

100. Still young? Yes. Will it get much older? I doubt it.

Our economic base is almost gone, and was being destroyed for the last decade at least. The people of course, were not told about it and even if they were, they are too uneducated to understand it anyway.

The jobs that we all depended on all our lives have been outsourced to the lowest labor cost nations so our labor base has become unemployed.

The fascist nation we are becoming does not deserve the name United States of America. I would suggest the Corporate States of America. And the initials bring back memories to those in the south.

Hey, here's an idea. Let's outsource our government! It couldn't be much worse than what we have now, and it certainly would be much cheaper.

[American Tragedy]

139. Speak for yourself, please.

If you are going to write a sweeping, highly negative generalization of a quarter of a billion people, then at least remove the first-person plural from your post. I resent being stereotyped for my nationality, just as much as I resent being stereotyped for my race or gender.

[Fridays Child]

14. But what about Poland?

Has anybody even thought about Poland?

[stevedeshazer]

17. You're right!

I forgot Poland! :)

[American Tragedy]

141. If you're referring to the economy, Poland's not doing so great.

Just years after finally becoming a sovereign nation, they spent most of the twentieth century being invaded and taken over by more powerful countries, and they've been recovering for the past decade. From what I've seen, it's been pretty rough.

[Liberal Veteran]

16. You mean we'd have lower crime rate, good health care...

...excellent education, and a high standard of living?

Gasp! We wouldn't want that.

[rox63]

21. I'll sign up for the "More Like Europe" plan

What's not to like? Health care, education, lots of vacation time, guaranteed govt-funded retirement. If the price for this is higher taxes, sign me up!

[DBoon]

45. Sounds excellent to me too!

If I were a European, the opposite threat would have some teeth. "If you keep cutting social programs, we will end up impoverished and illiterate like those Americans"

[thoughtanarchist]

22. Rove aide email stresses need to convince public of crisis...

orig post in LBN from mountebank
-----------------------------------------------------------
Rove aide strategy: Convince public system’s ‘heading for iceberg’

The Associated Press
Updated: 8:37 p.m. ET Jan. 5, 2005

WASHINGTON - The success of President Bush’s push to remake Social Security depends on convincing the public that the system is “heading for an iceberg,” according to a White House strategy note that makes the case for cutting benefits promised for the future.

Calling the effort “one of the most important conservative undertakings of modern times,” Peter Wehner, the deputy to White House political director Karl Rove, says in the e-mail message that a battle over Social Security is winnable for the first time in six decades and could transform the political landscape.

The White House confirmed the authenticity of the e-mail but did not have an immediate comment.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6791950 /






http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1125183

[Just Me]

55. That is called, GOVERNMENT-SPONSORED PROPAGANDA,...

,...or, an intentional psy-ops campaign against a people in a so-called "democracy".

[mike_c]

23. oh yeah, that would suck....

:wtf:

[radric]

27. I'm quite willing to be...

subjected to free health care and 6 weeks paid vacation a year. I have a feeling I could live with those changes.

[mike_c]

29. yeah, its a burden...

...but somebody's got to be like Europe.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

24. Heaven forbid! Affordable drugs and healthcare for everyone!

[daa]

30. Under chimp and Mankiw

we just now have as many jobs as 4 years ago. Damn bring on more tax cuts and wage cuts.

[AllyCat]

31. How is this a warning?

Sounds like a joyous day to me.

[NMDemDist2]

32. and the downside to this is????????

hell if Europe had better weather.. although I hear the south of Spain would make me feel at home.....

can a lady make a living selling lattes in south of Spain? Sign me up!

[Mokito]

125. can a lady make a living selling lattes in south of Spain?

If you choose your destination carefully...absolutely!

[wicket]

33. Krugman showed what a fool Mankiw is

Blow it out your ass Mankiw!!! :grr:

The Bush administration is trying to gut Social Security!!!! ;grr:

[matt819]

34. Pay attention, boys and girls

While we weren't looking, Europe has become a superpower. Maybe not militarily in the sense that the United States is (thank goodness), but economically. You can make as much fun as you want of the French and the Italians, etc., but they have banded together and are an economic superpower.

Meanwhile, in the far east, we have China, which is pretty much eating our shorts when it comes to manufacturing, demand for natural resources, fossil fuels, and the like, likely to take the lead within the next dozen or so years in a whole host of manufacturing areas. An article in the NYT pegged them as the world's largest shipbuilder in a decade. A piece on NPR last week noted that they are soon to be exporting cars to the US.

While we are on a crusade in the middle east and resorting to a nifty combination of medieval military and 20th century fascist tactics to have our way with the world, others are planning for a sounder future.

[llmart]

43. So true!!!!

And the majority of the people in this country don't even see it yet. I would go so far as to say we are not the world's economic superpower any more.

[AlamoDemoc]

50. ....don't forget the 530 billion dollars they have on our T-notes. darn!

[truebrit71]

73. Ain't that the truth...

..but it makes you feel sooooooooooo good to say things like "Cheese-eating surrender monkeys"...and all your buds bust out laughing when you tell those Frenchie jokes...

I keep saying that if and when The United States of Europe decides to make itself heard there are gonna be a whole bunch of people over here saying "when did THAT happen?"...until then let's concentrate on gathering and conquering oil-producing countries, keeping women barefoot and pregnant, and whatver we do WE MUSN'T LET THE GAYS GET MARRIED...

You know...IMPORTANT stuff....

[Barkley]

113. We're definitely having a difficult time competing economically

I agree with your comments.

I bet those who promoted economic liberalization in the 80s really believed that U.S. would remain an unchallenged economic hegemon.

But as your message suggests -- economic liberalization
will award the most efficient market player and it ain't the U.S.

We're having a hard time competing economically.

So, we resort to our military power to dominate.

We control (or at least try) the oil and other resources.

[matt819]

35. Sounds like time for a new movement

More like Europe! more like Europe!

If there's a waiting list for the more like Europe movement, sign me up.

[Bouncy Ball]

37. BRING IT ON.

And while you're at it, could we import a tiny bit of European Socialism, too? Not a whole lot, but we could do with a bit.

Thanks!

[llmart]

46. Add to that their wonderful food.......

and eating habits as opposed to our consumption of fast food and epidemic of obesity and respect for culture and history and I'm ready to move!!

[American Tragedy]

140. You obviously haven't been to Chicago, or New York, or hundreds of other

American cities. Hell, Louisville has great food, and it's barely even a second-tier city. It probably can't hold a candle to Italy or France, though I've never been down there, but it compares pretty favorably to the cuisine I sampled in Northern Europe.

Sorry, just trying to be fair to my home country. :) It's not all bad here.

That having been said, I do agree that we could do worse than to emulate the systems of Scandinavia or the Netherlands. I was impressed, and I say that as somebody who tends to be extremely critical of government spending and bureaucratic influence in people's lives.

[llmart]

144. Well, you're wrong......

I've been to Chicago many times, NY, Atlanta, Cleveland, San Francisco, Detroit, Boston, San Diego, Houston, (shall I go on?). I am well travelled within this country and I was referring to our culture of excess and not our culture of quality. The majority of people in this country do not value quality - they value quantity.

[muriel_volestrangler]

38. The greatest fiscal challenge? The on budget deficit

ie everything but social security (apologies if that's a simplification - if anyone can set me straight, please do).

Projection for 2004 figures: $1338 billion in revenue; $1912 billion in outlays.

http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=1944&sequence=0

ie the US government is spending 143% of its income, if you do count scoial security as a lockbox. It will still be 128% by 2009. Sustainable? I just can't see how.

[Nite Owl]

39. More like Europe?

Does that mean all the benefits, healthcare etc?

Bring it on! (Isn't that language * would understand?)

[Coventina]

40. ROFL!!! That's the worst threat they got?!?!?!?!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!


Please stop! Can't breathe.....

[leesa]

41. You mean we might become solvent?? Heaven forbid!

A. They don't need to raise taxes to keep SS on track. Totally unnecessary. B. They could rescind the tax break for the greedy and we'd be even better off. I am SO SICK of their lies.

[d_b]

42. Sign me up!

[Eric J in MN]

48. Gregory Mankiw previously praised outsourcing and

said we should consider counting fast-food jobs as manufacturing.

[diatribe]

49. USA couldn't possible learn from centuries old civilizations....

we have to try and reinvent the wheel with every move.

[Selatius]

51. Mankiw is probably talking about unemployment in Europe

In countries such as France and Germany, unemployment is often closer to 10% than it is to, say, 5% in the US. Just google present unemployment statistics. In France and Germany, for instance, unemployment is around 9.9% and 10.8%, respectively, and it has been higher than that in the last several years.

German and French unemployment:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/01/05/business/euecon.html

Europe-wide unemployment numbers:

http://europa.eu.int/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=STAT/05/3&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en

However, I suspect other economic factors beside social spending and taxation affect unemployment. If you look at Eurozone statistics for each nation, nations such as Luxembourg and the Netherlands have lower unemployment numbers than the US. In Sweden, which actually prides itself as a social democracy, unemployment is at 6.4%, which is no worse than the US recession.

[4MoreYearsOfHell]

59. Maybe they actually count

ALL of the unemployed...

Not just those who are still receiving benefits...If I remember correctly, counting everybody in this country puts us at just under 10%...

[Just Me]

63. Counting ALL the unemployed (needing jobs) here would exceed 20%.

And THAT is being "liberally conservative" with economic reality!!!!

I want everyone to pull their heads out of the psy-ops matrix.

There are rapists who convince their prey that they are happy to be raped. Those rapists are never prosecuted. Their victims,...suffer, greatly.

[Tight_rope]

83. And lets not forget the Under-employed....

Yes, many may have found jobs to replace jobs that they lost. But the jobs they are now working don't pay anywhere close to what they were making. I for one can contest to that. Not that many of us were living large while working our old jobs. Nowadays, we are rubbing 2 pennies together to try to get a dollar (You know the old trick of "Robbing Peter to pay Paul").

[stevedeshazer]

61. If you think the unemployment rate in the US is 5%, I've got news.

Take it from someone who is temping at 40% of my previous salary after being unemployed for 20 months.

[Selatius]

66. I never said US unemployment numbers were accurate reflections of reality

In all likelihood, actual unemployment nationwide is probably 50% higher or more, which would throw us into the 8% range, which is close to France and Germany today. The Eurozone unemployment definition is different than the US definition in that they follow standards set forth by the International Labour Organization. We follow what the Bureau of Labor Statistics deems as unemployment.

Given all this junk, I don't see what Mankiw is talking about except the damn numbers on paper (i.e. 5.4% unemployment), and a lazy eye would see a difference between, say, Germany and the US as far as unemployment, but a trained eye would look at how the numbers were compiled and see the underlying situation.

[eridani]

86. You are all forgetting the prison industrial complex

All the nonviolent offenders and people in jail for ridiculous war on some drugs crap, and the people to guard them are all functionally unemployed and not counted as such.

[HuckleB]

76. Talk about lies, er statistics.

Use the same method to calculate unemployment and then get back to me. Unemployment in the US is actually quite high. We just choose not to acknowledge that reality by twisting and spinning who we count as unemployed.

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pachamama]

119. Atleast Europe's Unemployed get counted and get help...& aren't called

"Economic Girlie Men"....:grr:

[bobbieinok]

135. until recent changes, Germany had unemployment insurance for a year

and then a different program, but still support if unemployed for more than a year


owners and managers in Germany are screaming about German workers having it so good that German goods can no longer compete internationally.........Where have we heard that before??????

[karlrschneider]

53. Mankiw, same guy who said outsourcing was good for our economy

last year. This moron is a happy meal short of a burger.

[Sugarbleus]

54. Must Read: "United States of Europe"..T.R. Reid

Europeans pay more in sales tax but get so much more in services...not perfect there but better than here on so many levels.

The book points out that the USA spends big for military; Europeans don't do that. When there is trouble in the world, they call us!! They get to live in a welfare state while we get to live in a military heavy state.

I'm pretty sick of this arrangement, how about you?

The book also points out the rise of the European "State"; hence we may be seeing the demise of the "American" model pretty soon. Ya gotta read the book to get the full impact. Very interesting.

[Niccolo_Macchiavelli]

57. US is quite self-entertaining concerning foreign adventures

no need for the yurupeans to summon the US juggernaut. But you are right generally money is spent better for education, healthcare and culture (theatres, alternative projects, plays, filming)

But lotsa spent on military though and we got our nutjobs as well...

[Just Me]

64. They have the "rest" of the world on their side, though.

The neoconimperialists pretend they have a "smoking gun" military,...but, they underestimate the power of the rest of the world,...a world filled with human beings who NEVER have to "appease" to their power.

So freakin' unfortunate that absolute power had to fall in the hands of those who would absolutely corrupt that power. Weaklings. All those who are so arrogant are absolute weaklings.

[Catchawave]

95. I saw Reid on C-span....

He made alot of sense to this average housewife! I'm going to read his book, because I was very impressed with his enthusiasm and common sense approach to fixin' Amerika :)

Plus, I know for a fact he isn't on the WH payroll <snort>.

[Sugarbleus]

127. Yes he made sense to me too....

Plus he gave more detailed info about this world we live in; things about culture, governments, and economics that I did not previously know.

Very interesting.. :thumbsup:

[slor]

56. We should be so lucky! eom

[AlamoDemoc]

58. Before we look to Europe for health care and benefits for the poor

Why don't we first borrow simple heal care system for all from north of the border?

[darkism]

60. And that would be bad...why? [eom]

[LevelB]

65. Please, oh please, Bre'r Bush

Don't throw me into the briar patch.

B.

[lawladyprof]

67. Do they promise?

N/T

[struggle4progress]

68. The Ownership Society: bringing the romance of "third world" ...

... economies back home to Americans, by bankrupting the treasury and destroying the social safety net.

[Deja Q]

69. You mean, better healthcare, less discrimination/prejudice, more congenial

behavior on the part of the citizens, a responsible government that takes care of its burden? (though for that last one, it's okay for the ittle people to squeal like piggies but the fat cats can play Donald Trump every time they want.)

GO FOR IT. Raise taxes. Let's get our house in order. I wish Perot had won and I REGRET VOTING FOR CLINTON at this point. He may have been the best president the republican/neocons ever had, but Perot's talking points clearly seem better in hindsight than what was given to us in 24 straight years of repukeanomics.

[katinmn]

71. And that's a bad thing?

[truebrit71]

72. Yup, I can see their point..I mean seriously, who wants lower crime,

...better health care, better public services, and all that paid time off? I mean REALLY, who would want that?

Stupid yurruppeans...next thing you'll be telling me is that people in this country expect their votes to be counted and their elected representatives to represent THEM and not their corporate donors...

:eyes:

[burrowowl]

74. I lived in France for 20 years

got paid more than here and when adding up taxes here in the U$ on the little guy, not even including medical insurance, the little guy pays more in the U$ than in France and what you do pay, you get health care, good roads, education, etc. in return. Damn, we should be so lucky to be like Europe or Canada!

[HuckleB]

75. Cool.

Better healthcare, education, child care, vacation benefits that actually allow one to remain mentally healthy... sounds like a great plan to me.

[Zgrrl]

77. Oh goody!

Can we start with their health insurance? Or perhaps their worker protections?

[Flammable Materials]

78. Longer vacations? Health care? Decent wages? Public rail?

Where do I sign up?

[SammyWinstonJack]

109. Can someone please explain to me what about those benefits even

the rank and file repugs wouldn't want? I really don't get that. If we didn't spend so much on our defense budget, couldn't we have at least some of those benefits without raising taxes? If we stopped running around the World trying to dominate other Countries, we wouldn't need such an obscene defense budget, would we? I'm happy with prospect of the U.S. becoming more like Europe.........if only.

[renegade000]

79. *gasp* THE HORROR

*laughs hysterically on the ground*

[daleo]

81. "Being more like Europe" is a big step

Start off by being more like Canada, and build from there.

[stepnw1f]

82. Oh, NO! Not That!!

Progress.... we can't have progress.

[Jose Diablo]

84. Sigh..a very bleak outlook indeed

A paid month long vacation in the summer and also in the winter, national health care, getting paid if unemployed, child care assistance for working mom's, free dental care, drug presciptions available for all at little cost, subsidised heating of apartments and homes in the winter, subsidised food programs.

The 'wastefull' social programs go on and on.

And all of it, all, paid for by the corporations and the wealthy.

It's the end of the world I say. The end. Is there no justice in this world?

[Seabiscuit]

85. Hmmm... Like "New Europe" or "Old Europe"? WTF???

:wtf:

Hey, Shrub, you idiot, the "single greatest fiscal challenge the country faces" is the huge budget deficit you created with your greedy, insane, and irresponsible tax, war, and economic policies.

[Vektor]

88. Sounds great!! Liberal? With available healthcare? And good food? Woo-hoo!

Now I don't have to move!

[Art_from_Ark]

89. The US IS ending up like Europe

Europe of the 1930s

[reprobate]

104. Yes! and the same gov't result. You have to wonder......

....if it will take a world war or just a simple revolution to return us to sanity?

[Redstone]

90. Oh, it would be so terrible to be like Europe...

French food, German beer, Italian women, British humor, Spanish tapas-bar tours, Greek dancing, Polish kielbasa, Danish ham, Prague nightlife...No starting pointless, evil wars just because we don't think the other guys will fight back.

What a bummer that would be.

Redstone

[reprobate]

105. Ummmmmm. Europe. Delicious.

[DrZeeLit]

91. You mean great trains, public transporation, and CULTURE? Wow! I'm IN!

Not to mention Health Care and a sense of community.
And I'd like those small mom & pop stores again, please.
And maybe those little cars, the ones I saw in Paris.
Oh, and real bakery bread, too.

Oh? It's only a "threat" dream?

Bring it on!

[AlbizuX]

93. that dog and cat picture is hilarious...they really look caught!

[AlbizuX]

92. umm....why is that bad?

Europe has free healthcare, better vacation plans for workers, better childcare, cleaner societies, less crime, less murders....um...why would it be bad to be Europe again?

[DrZeeLit]

96. Oh yeah, I forgot about the handgun thing. Way less needless death. n/t

[KDLarsen]

94. Yeah that would be bad..

.. Denmark have just had a 23 billion DKK surplus (~4 billion dollars), that noone at first could tell where came from (it came from increased tax revenue & very careful economic projections). That equals to 4000 DKK (7-800 dollars) for every Danish citizen, even babies. Granted, the money won't be given to us, but instead it will be spent on bringing down the countrys debt.

Yeah, some European economies are all bad..

[Hardrada]

128. Back to Old Norway

I am all Norse by ancestry and wish Norway had some kind of Right of Return even if the people there were probably happy my ancestors left in the first place!
I would like Norwegian social benefits and scenery and the climate couldn't be any worse then Iowa's.

[meganmonkey]

99. LOL at that headline

God forbid! Oh NO!!!!!

Because those Europeans are just miserable, backwards heathens!!!

Hee hee...

[Skittles]

101. that's what I thought too, meganmonkey

I lived in England for much of my childhood and just don't recall it being a backwards hickville of some sort. :o

[meganmonkey]

103. I spent many months in Germany

and traveled a lot to other countries during that time...for the most part, standard of living was higher than ours in a less greedy way (e.g. people's homes were sturdy and cozy, instead of low-quality but huge; the food they ate was excellent, not overprocessed and unhealthy; their cars lasted a long time and got good mileage,etc etc). High quality, low stress, much healthier.

And if you did have a McDonalds craving, you could get beer with your Combo meal :P

Health care? Yes please!
Excellent public transportation from cities to small villages and everywhere in between? Yes please!
Multi-party systems so that millions of people don't have to fit into 2 categories? Yes please!!!

[barb162]

102. being like Europe sounds pretty good to me

[Mr_Spock]

106. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

A friend of mine is living in Germany - says she loves it there. They take care of everything so she doesn't have to work while she is raising young children. Kind of reminds me of how it was when I was a child...

Gregory Mankiw - yeah tell me again how outsourcing is good for the USA? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! What a bunch of fucking losers. :eyes:

[underpants]

108. Yeah so far that has to be the funniest headline of the year

Oh no we wouldn't want THAT!!!

[neebob]

110. No, it's really happening

Just yesterday, I was editing a Word document that someone else created, and it kept putting a space in front of semicolons and question marks and typing these little double pointy bracket thingies instead of quotation marks.

Well, it didn't take me long to figure out that the language was set on French ... FRENCH! And here I am in Colorado, and the person who created the document was in Michigan.

So there you have it. Those White House people are sharper cookies than we thought.

[Mr_Spock]

148. LOL - reminds me of the dumb New Hampshire locals I talk to

Every time anything related to foreign this or foreign that comes up on the news, they use it as an opportunity to bash the French. It's kinda like the hip thing to do in conservative circles. Don't get me wrong, I've criticized the French on many occasions myself, but their insistence on speaking the truth about Iraq and the fact that these red-neck morons "hate" them makes me want to give every French person I meet a hug (and not the RW French Canadiens who live around here either!)

[shadowknows69]

111. yeah, and we're going to be like somalia if we don't pay off our debt

[Barkley]

112. "SS reform ...the single greatest fiscal challege" WRONG! its IRAQ!-nt

[Pachamama]

116. WOW! Best news I've heard ever from this administration!

Gosh America, wouldn't that be terrible to have all children well educated, the elderly cared for, every American have health insurance and atleast 3-4 weeks vacation?

:eyes:

[jburton]

117. Finally we'll get decent a decent train system!

nt

[Chicago Democrat]

120. You mean prosperous and civilized and sustainable?

Gimme more like Europe!

[Vidar]

121. We should be so lucky: functioning democracy, enlightened

culture, intact health care, superior education & compassion. "So aside from that what did the Romans do for us?" (Couldn't resist a stupid joke)

[Guns Aximbo]

122. their economy is...

as good or better than ours. Isn't it? The Euro is doing well anyway.

[WritersBlock]

123. Um, as if being more like Europe is a bad thing?

I am quite willing to pay roughly 1/3 of my gross salary in exchange for health care & a state pension (read "Social Security").

I won't even begin to compare having six weeks' holiday instead of working my way up to maybe two weeks after several years of service, if then.

[Clark2008]

126. And there's a problem with this?

Just wonderin'.

Me? I'd like health care (don't have any as I can't afford the premiums right now so I could afford private - and cheaper than at work - health care for my son) and three or four weeks vacation.

[shadowknows69]

151. Europe isn't America

and America is all that matters. Freedoms on the march and we'll even bring it to europe someday. <slap>...ow!! oh thanks honey...sorry channeled the chimp there for a second. damn psi sensitive brain.

[FreeStateDemocrat]

130. NYT/Bush Names 2 Ex-Senators To Consider Tax Changes

By EDMUND L. ANDREWS
Published: January 9, 2005

WASHINGTON, Jan. 7 - President Bush on Friday named two well-known former senators to head a bipartisan advisory panel on taxes, and gave the group six months to come up with recommendations on how to make the income tax simpler, fairer and more conducive to growth.
The panel's chairman will be Connie Mack III, a former Republican senator from Florida, and its vice chairman will be John B. Breaux, the former Democratic senator from Louisiana who decided not to run for re-election last year.

(SNIP)

In addition to Mr. Mack and Mr. Breaux, the panel's members will be Bill Frenzel, a retired Republican congressman from Minnesota and a political centrist; Elizabeth Garrett, a law professor at the University of Southern California who was a tax counsel to David L. Boren, the former Democratic senator from Oklahoma; Timothy Muris, former chairman of the Federal Trade Commission under Mr. Bush; Edward P. Lazear, a professor of labor economics at Stanford University; James M. Poterba, a professor of tax economics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology; Charles O. Rossotti, a former commissioner of the Internal Revenue Service; and Liz Ann Sonders, chief investment strategist at Charles Schwab.

http://www.nytimes.com/

[mariema]

132. And environmental policies

based on real science, sustainability, and concern for future generations are another horror that we would have to endure if we became more like Europe.

[underpants]

134. When? Where? can I sign up?

:kick:

[Massachusetts]

136. DESOLATION ROW

:smoke:

[skysurfer]

137. Ummm

Didn't their sainted Ronald Reagan agree to raise payroll taxes in the 80s so that SS would be able to pay out to the babyboomers? Doesn't it make sense that every so often taxes will have to be raised in certain areas in order to keep social programs going? Sometimes I wish that this regime would just come out say that they want to destroy all social programs instead of trying to spin it every which way. Heck, they've got their supporters so damn mesmerized that they'd probably just smile and say thank you.

[proudbluestater]

138. More wisdom from the guy who thinks outsourcing is GOOD.

"Mankiw said the Bush administration considered Social Security reform the single greatest fiscal challenge the country faces and said it had to be reformed in order to remain sound."


Hmmm, that's the BIG challenge? Something that is solvent for 40 more years?

How about the soaring DEFICIT?

How about the NATIONAL DEBT?

How about the inequity in the tax system?

How about too many tax cuts for the wealthy and none for anybody else?

How about waging an unnecessary war that costs 1 BILLION a day?

I do not understand their freaking priorities. Never will. Not supposed to, I guess.

[The Judged]

142. Obviously, this warning was for corporations & not for American families!

[Ferretherder]

145. George W. Bush addresses the threat of...

...'the European Lifestyle' in front of the press outside the Oval Office -

"Ah got just TWO WORDS to say to all you Yurpeens trahin' to 'foist'....(waits for audible gasp at 'classy', intelligent word use)....yer communist lifestyle on the U.S. - 'Bring it on!'

(Uh, Mr. President,.....)

"Sorry, FOUR words!"

[primavera]

147. Woo hoo! Sign me up!

You mean we could be more like a part of the world which doesn't bestow 80% of the nation's wealth into the hands of 2% of the poluation, leaving the remaining 98% to eak by on slave wages? You mean, become more like a region in which you don't have to be rich to have access to healthcare? Become more like a part of the world that provides a high quality education for its entire population so that it's not dominated by puritan religious zealots whose understanding of the world lingers around the declining years of the Roman Empire? Become more like a region which spends more on art and culture than it does on military and consequently enjoys global respect as opposed to universal animosity? OMG, I think I just came...

[many a good man]

149. The real threat is to income inequality

Comparing numbers is frequently bogus. Last March I saw a paper that said US unemployment if counted the European way would be 9.6%. Even GDP figures can be misleading. A lot of our economic growth is based on dealing with the problems of our dysfunctional system instead of investing in the future.

How much do we spend on prisons, emergency room care for the uninsured, crime, terrorism, war...

[Hekate]

152. Y'mean our infant mortality would go down?!

Right now we are on a par with Cuba and Croatia, at 7 per 1,000 births. About 33 countries do better than we do. Japan, Singapore, Sweden, and Iceland are lowest at 3/1000.

Infant mortality is one of those indicators with broad implications: nutrition and medical care for women and children both factor into it, as do public sanitation, clean water, and environmental toxins. In the US, premature births (a significant risk factor for infant mortality) have been on the rise for quite some time, and so far I have not seen any indication that the CDC et al. have figured out just why.

For sure though, the leaders of the nation that boasts it's the "richest" and "most generous" on earth revert to Social Darwinism and fetishistic rugged individualism when it comes to providing health care for women, infants, and children.

Single payer health care? Bring it on!

Hekate


http://earthtrends.wri.org/searchable_db/index.cfm?theme=4&variable_ID=383&action=select_countries

[DemBones DemBones]

153. More like Europe? BRING IT ON!!!

I LIKE Europe.

[sonicx]

154. Some European nations have civil unions and Spain is getting gay marriage

that's just aweful!!! :eyes:

[rodeodance]

156. promises, promises--this is one I really wish he would through on!

[Stella_Artois]

157. Oh the humanity !

God forbid the US becomes like the UK which is enjoying its lowest unemployment for 20 years its lowest inflation for 40 years and its longest period of economic growth for 200 years.

[twenty2strings]

158. Ahh !!! It's the clutching red octopus of...

People who live like they're not insane. I'm proud to be Europe's friend. We're all right next door now. And I like trains.:toast:

[Supersedeas]

159. Europe without the social structure (health care/education) is not really

Europe, 'tis it?

[Massachusetts]

160. The Bu$hco Robber Barron's

Will Lie, Cheat and Steal to get any point across. Praise Gee Sus