Ahern says IRA was involved in robbery (end of peace process?)

[bin.dare]

Today, Berthie Ahern came out and fully blamed the IRA for the bank robbery, and the Sinn Fein leadership for knowing about it. Furthermore, he blames Sinn Fein for wrecking the recent peace talks; while we thought the tricky issue was about those damn photographs, Berthie says (plaintively) that after working hard all year long only two issues remained: "One was the transparency issue over decommissioning of IRA weapons and the other was IRA criminality".

Where the fuck did this criminality one come from?
Berthie goes o to say the Sinn Fein leadership could not agree over the wording concerning IRA criminality and that he must conclude it was because they knew "these kind of events were going on."

Couple this with mass murderer bLIAR's statement that said "Unionists were entirely justified in refusing to share power with republicans in the light of the robbery" and what do we have left?

nothing, nada, nilch, nil. a redux of pre-1990s. fuck them.

bLIAR and yellow pants Berthie set out to discredit Sinn Fein and prevent them becoming part of a government; they are making considerabble progress. and fuck them again.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2005/0109/breaking20.htm
Ahern says IRA was involved in Belfast bank robbery
Last updated: 09-01-05, 17:05

The Taoiseach today blamed the Provisional IRA for the Belfast bank robbery which was carried out in December.
Speaking on RTE's This Week programme, Mr Ahern said: "The Provisional IRA was involved. This was an IRA job...this was a job that was known to the political leadership."

Mr Ahern said he was upset that the crime was being planned when the Government was taking part in crucial talks over reaching a comprehensive agreement to restore the power-sharing executive.
"In a period of intensive talks, my information is now that people in very senior positions would have known what was going on."
"We had finalised some very, very difficult issues during last year and we spent the entire of 2004 working to get to the 8th of December and at the end we had essentially been left with two outstanding issues which had to be resolved. One was the transparency issue over decommissioning of IRA weapons and the other was IRA criminality".

Mr Ahern said the Sinn Fein leadership could not agree over the wording concerning the issue of IRA criminality and that he must conclude it was because they knew "these kind of events were going on."
...

The Sinn Fein TD Mr Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin said it was a disgrace that the Government had accepted without question the opinion of PSNI Chief Constable Hugh Orde on the robbery. He said Mr Orde "has produced not a scintilla of evidence to back his allegations".
Mr Ó Caoláin also said: "It is clear now that the DUP were unwilling to share power with republicans at this time".

The British Prime Minister has said Unionists were "entirely justified" in refusing to share power with republicans in the light of the robbery.
Unionists called on London to exclude Sinn Fein and press ahead with efforts to restore devolution without them.

[HawkerHurricane]

1. Going back to thier roots.

IRA has used bank robberies to fund thier operations since the 1920's. Or longer.

[bin.dare]

2. what they did in the 20's, 30's , 40's ...

.. and so on, is not the issue here. we are talking about this particular bank robbery (although Berthie does use the plural, i grant you).

[HawkerHurricane]

7. Same reason anybody robs banks, I imagine.

"I needed the money".

[Maple]

3. No reason for them to

IRA is about to get what they want in the peace process, so they wouldn't sabotage it.

Lots of others willing to sabotage the IRA though.

[Kagemusha]

4. What do they want then?

No, seriously.. what do they want?

Having a permanent ceasefire while you can continue to make money through taxation by force sounds like a good deal...

[Maple]

5. What does who want?

The IRA? To be in government in Northern Ireland, and eventually to reunite the country, and toss British rule.

The loyalist paramilitaries, which appear to be invisible in the media, want to stay a part of Britain. They only have N Ireland left, and want to retain it.

[Kagemusha]

6. And they're going to get that through negotiation how?

If they want exclusive rule over the loyalist protestants, they'll never obtain that through jaw-jaw, whether the British leave or not. They'll only get that through war-war.

So they're going to get what they want through the peace process how?

[Maple]

8. Again...I'm not sure what you're talking about

No one said anything about 'exclusive rule' over 'loyalist protestants.' It's a government, and it involves different parties.

The peace process means N Ireland runs it's own affairs, and is not run by England. Sinn Fein would be a part of that government by being elected. So would other parties.

[Kagemusha]

9. I think I misread "in government" as "be the government" of the N.

But that being the case...

I've never heard that the Brits are there because they want to rule N. Ireland against the wishes of the loyalists. They're there because the loyalists want protection and the U.K. government has not denied that protection. Therefore, the IRA's problem is only the Brit troops by proxy. The real problem is that the loyalists don't want to be ruled by Catholic Irish in a united Ireland where their wishes would be buried as effectively as, say, Kurds in Turkey.

So the peace process is going to change that how?...

The problem isn't British rule. The problem is resistance to Irish rule. I don't see how this peace process will change that and prevent an eventual crackdown upon protestant loyalists to enforce rule from Berlin. The Brit troops are there to prevent that scenario. Once they leave, that scenario is an inevitability, save a wholesale renouncement of the loyalists' traditions, religion and preference of citizenship.

I don't see how the peace process is going to solve that *for the IRA*. So, I don't see why the IRA, which would view fighting the protestants as an inevitability once the U.K. troops leave, would want to permanently disarm in its entirety rather than simply have a permanent ceasefire against the (soon to depart) U.K. forces.

[eric144]

10. NI is part of Britain

permantly now unless Sein feinn get a majority of the vote and that will never happen. Even if they did, it would be war first.

The best way to think of it is like a state government in NI and s federal government in London. The NI government is unique as both communities have a veto on constitutional matters. Stalemate in other words.

[Kagemusha]

11. The question is if it would be war with the Brits

or war with civilian protestants.

And to be blunt, I see the latter result as an invitation for far, FAR more blood spilt.

[newscott]

12. It will happen eventually.

I've been reading that in the next generation or so, especially if this provisional government sticks around, the Catholics will outnumber the Protestants. It's just a matter of time.

[Kagemusha]

14. All the more reason for the IRA to stock up on cash for that day.

Then it'll have all the weapons it needs to enforce the "peace".

[Maple]

20. The IRA doesn't need cash

They are well funded, and always have been.

And they have plenty of weapons as well...just like the loyalists do.

[eric144]

26. Republicanism in NI is finished

In my humble opinion, Adams and McGuiness are now tools of British intelligence and have been since Omagh at least.

They would never win a war because the protestants have superior access to arms and the British army would stop it anyway. . The Irish governmeny doesn't even support a united Ireland, so they have zero chance.

This is what ended any chance of a united Ireland in 2000. Many of those that blocked the roads were armed.

Hundreds of loyalist protesters in Northern Ireland answered a call by Portadown Orangemen to close roads to support their campaign for a march through a nationalist area.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/827560.stm

Churchill if I remember partitioned Ireland to avoid a war between the protestant north and catholic south and a near certain British army mutiny. Of course, they did the same to India.

[Maple]

32. I'm sorry...I'm falling over laughing here

The IRA has fought the entire British military to a standstill, and with very few people. They cleared southern Ireland, and are doing the same to the north.

It's like Iraq...and the IRA are the 'insurgents'

I don't know where you're getting your history, but it isn't from actual events.

The Orangemen should ditch the bowlers, stop parading about, and make a deal or they're going to lose out.

We will see a united and sovereign Ireland in the near future.

[eric144]

40. 1916 and all that

My grandmother was in the IRA at the post office in Dublin in 1916. Grandfather on the other side was a VERY extreme protestant.

What else was happening in 1916 ?

You are completely wrong, the IRA have been soundly beaten as a result of infiltration by British military intelligence. Two of the senior members of the provisional IRA were British soldiers, one of them for 30 years !!!

IRA torturer was in the Royal Marines
http://www.sundayherald.com/29997

The army asked me to make bombs for the IRA, told me I had the Prime Minister's blessing ... then tried to kill me

http://www.sundayherald.com/25646

'Stakeknife' trial cover-up claim (2nd in command of internal security for 30 years)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3490625.stm

Ulster spies to 'blow MI5 cover'
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/northernirelandassembly/story/0,9061,750426,00.html

An insider to probe an inside job
http://www.irlnet.com/aprn/archive/2002/March28/28cast.html


The IRA haven't fired a single shot in seven years. I'm willing to bet they will never fire another one. Adams and McGuness have meekly gone along every single step of the way with the so called peace process no matter how many times they've been punched in the face.

[Maple]

42. 500 IRA held the British army

at bay...some 50,000 men all these years.

The initials mean the Irish Republican Army...the army of the republic of Ireland. Now a separate sovereign country.

They have done a grand job getting rid of the British. Only a little left to go.

The IRA has never surrendered...something that bugs Paisley's ass no end...however, they never will. They have no need to.

They won.

[eric144]

44. They lost big time

There is no united Ireland and never will be - they aren't even ASKING for, never mind demanding a united Ireland. You're 10 years out of date.

They were completely conned by the English, not the first people that happened to.

[Maple]

46. They have never lost

and yes, a united Ireland is still very much a part of their platform.

They have web sites you know. I suggest you familiarize yourself with them.

[eric144]

48. Good Friday Agreement

The current peace process (Good Friday Agreement) which Sin Feinn are commited to has no road to a united Ireland. They have agreed to decommission ALL IRA weapons, so you're plain wrong. Blair has said that NI will always be part of the UK and nobody contradicted him.


Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness are PAID by the British government for God's sake. This one article below sinks you fantasy IRA ship once and for all. No more war, it's over FOR GOOD.


Sinn Fein urges IRA to disarm

The Sinn Fein leader, Gerry Adams, tonight said he had urged the IRA to disarm in a bid to save the peace process, in a last throw of the dice before the Stormont assembly collapses on Thursday.
In an highly trailed speech to party activists in west Belfast, Mr Adams said he and deputy Martin McGuinness had told the IRA that a decommissioning move would resolve the crisis facing the political institutions.

He confirmed: "Martin McGuinness and I have held discussions with the IRA and we have put to the IRA the view that if it could make a groundbreaking move on the arms issue that this could save the peace process from collapse and transform the situation."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Northern_Ireland/Story/0,2763,578792,00.html

[eric144]

51. checkmate

Let me be blunt about this. If Adams and McGuiness step out of line, they are dead men (literally). The IRA had no chance against a modern MI5, this isn't 1916 any more or 1975 for that matter.

[SweetLeftFoot]

89. You're over-egging the pudding

while M16 certainly had infiltrated elements of the Provisional movement, the IRA was still very much a capable force when its signed the ceasefires. The Docklands bomb showed Blair that.

[eric144]

95. yes

That was then, this is now.

No one wants to go back to having bombs go off in their shopping malls every week. I came back on a train (and boat)from NI to Scotland. There was a loud bang at a station, EVERYONE hit the deck and they were as scared as hell.

I suspect, that has been the policy of the UK government, to make terrorism seem like a nasty distant memory that should never return.

I don't think the IRA would have sufficient popular support today unless there was major inter communal violence. Omagh, where 28 people were killed , being a catholic town sickened catholics of terrorism.

[SweetLeftFoot]

97. I agree

from personal experience, I know that nobody in NI has the stomach at the moment for a return to war. But I also know that there is no way that Republicans are going to give up their struggle. They've been fighting for 700 years, they are not going to stop now.

[eric144]

101. future generation

It will have to be a future generation. As far as I can see, this chance has gone. Hardly surprising that a bunch of ordinary guys, no matter how smart or brave would beat the English. Scotland was cheated too.

To be controversial, it's clear to me that the Americans might never have gained independence without large scale French involvement. Having lost that war, the English incredibly still managed to make an ally of the United States and bankrupt the French a little down the road. What I'm saying is that the so called war of independence was really a British civil war. The rebels were British colonists, not occupied by the British

I'm not convinced the United States is really a completely separate country from the UK even today. I'm not suggesting the UK rules America (probably the total reverse in the last 30 years), but they are still tied VERY closely together - look at all the major wars in the last 100 years including Iraq and Kosovo (except Vietnam when Britain had a new Labour government ). I don't think it's just the language either.

[ally_sc]

104. yes it would figure we are kind of emeshed...re:UK and USA

I would like to think that I could escape there and it would be okay. things are really rotten in this country right now as you well know.

[SweetLeftFoot]

110. What ties the US and Britain

is their shared capitalist Protestant work ethic view of the world.

[ally_sc]

111. agreed and it is a shame

I can't understand how the us got into this mess with bushie again anyway..the democrats stand on abortion and gay marriage was probably what caused kerry to lose. It is terrible. another four years blah...it seems like all the different countries have their troubles.

[eric144]

120. re-imported work ethic

It's interesting that the work ethic had to be re-invigorated by the Thatcher/Murdoch axis of evil in the 1980's essentially imported from the states by impoverishment of the working classes (unemployment).

[SweetLeftFoot]

123. Too true

[RogueTrooper]

112. you won't see a united ireland

because the Catholic community do not want to leave the UK. People who want a United Ireland are a very small majority of the Northen Irish population.

As for the argument that the Catholic community will eventualy become numerically superior: That's not going to happen either. Birth rates, within the Catholic community, are moving to UK norm. The belief that the Catholic community would maintain an above average birth rate. With the new prosperity of the NI's Catholic community birth patterns mirror the UK: First child born in the mother's early thirties; only one or two children being born.

[ally_sc]

114. hmmm...opinion or source?

I know what you are saying. Some birth rates decling here as well but in this parish it is not unusual and I live in the states to see people with four or five children...odd isn't it? But conservative Catholics tned to not practice birth control, correct? That would lead me to believe in NI some must be practicing birth control on some level. Interesting...

[RogueTrooper]

116. There are not many conservative catholics in NI

not of the type you are thinking of. That kind of "conservative catholic" is a truely American phenomena. And yes, they are practising birth control.

Britain is the most secular country in Europe ( it certainly has the lowest church attendance ). Ireland, itself, is well on it's to emulating the UK in terms of church attendance.

As for the general opinion of NI's catholic community: Sorry, this comes from polling information that is not available online.

[Maple]

15. Yes, the loyalists

gerrymandered the ridings or districts to be solely protestant, leaving the catholics with little chance of getting anywhere.

However, protestant numbers aren't what they were, and the catholic population is rising, so the gerrymandering doesn't mean much anymore.

Within a short time, the catholics ...or to be more accurate, republican Irish... will outnumber the protestant loyalists to England.

When more and more republicans are in power, and the loyalists cease to be a force in N Ireland, the divided country will reunite, and Ireland will be whole and sovereign once again.

War freed the main part of Ireland from British rule, and it could free the northern counties as well...but this is a better way to go because it allows prosperity and immigration to do the job rather than a body count and many more years of war.

[newscott]

17. Absolutely,

Do you think for one minute the Government of Ireland proper, would allow some sort of genocide perpetrated in the north when they annex it. I seriously doubt it. Will there be trouble? Of course. Mass exodous? Probably. But what the heck, England created this damn problem in the first place.

[RogueTrooper]

113. The Irish Government will not annex Northen Ireland

I cannot see Irish voters either supporting such an action or demanding it of their government.

[Maple]

18. The problem has always been British rule

A thousand years of it, and the Irish want their country back.

Rules from Berlin?? That must be a typo.

The same situation existed in the Republic of Ireland, and now both catholics and protestants live there in peace. There is no 'inevitable' anything.

If the loyalists want to be English, they should move back to England. That's where they came from in the first place, some of them via Scotland.

They were offered free land in Ireland by the British crown if they'd go there and 'break up' the catholic hold on the country.

Centuries later, they're still trying to do that in spite of the change in times, the crown, and the people.

[muriel_volestrangler]

22. The protestants who came from Scotland

didn't come from England before that. They came from Ireland.

[Maple]

23. Some came from Scotland

and before that from England. My family was one of them.

There were big ads at the time to entice families to move, and loyal protestant Scots and English were welcomed. Land, cash...good deal...except for the centuries of fighting over it of course.

[muriel_volestrangler]

30. The Scots in general came from Ireland

though a few families may have come from England. The Picts who were in Caledonia in Roamn times seemed to get subsumed into the Scots from Ireland.

[Maple]

33. Two different eras.

I'm talking about the 1600s or so, not early settlement times.

[RogueTrooper]

117. In Ireland and Scotland

there is no difference. It is all the same.

[Kagemusha]

29. So who cares if there's another Rwanda here.

Thank you for making my point. I will post in this thread no more.

[Maple]

34. Sure you will

We've had bloodshed in Ireland for generations. This is the closest it's been to peace, and NOW you think of Rwanda??

I didn't make your point. Neither did you actually.

[HEyHEY]

67. Remember though that much of NI wants to remain British ruled

[bin.dare]

13. Recap of the Good Friday Agreement: short version

The Good Friday Agreement
was signed in Belfast on April 10, 1998 by the British and Irish Governments and endorsed
by most Northern Ireland political parties. It was endorsed overwhelmingly by referendums
in both Northern Ireland and the Republic in May 1998.

some of the main provisions:

The principle that the constitutional future of Northern Ireland should be determined by
the majority vote of its citizens.

A commitment by all parties to "exclusively peaceful and democratic means".

The establishment of a Northern Ireland Assembly with devolved legislative powers.

Creation of a 'power-sharing' Northern Ireland Executive, using the D'Hondt method to
allocate Ministries proportionally to the main parties.

Release within two years of paramilitary prisoners belonging to organisations observing a
ceasefire.

A two year target for decommissioning of paramilitary weapons.

[Donkeyboy75]

63. This post baffles me.

You have *NO* idea what you are talking about.

[radwriter0555]

119. I agree, this wasn't an IRA job... IRA folks would have stolen money they

could USE... and would have had the knoweledge that the money was so specific.

But they're taking a page from the Bush book and blaming those whom they need to demonise.

[ally_sc]

16. i am upset about the peace process...

was hoping the SF could get an audience this time.

i have read that ireland's economy is very strong. this would mean the brit's and blair would have an interest in trying to maintain a presence in Ireland. I don't think Blair cares about the peace process if it is going to mean less money to England...just my 2cents ya know.

[newscott]

19. That may not have always been the case.

While the English have done many unsavory things to undermine "trust" in the IRA, I thought Blair was sincere when this began. It's a big frigging headache for the English and will probably save them a ton of money in the long run.

[muriel_volestrangler]

31. The cheapest thing for Britain to do

would be to withdraw troops immediately, say the Northern Irish politicians have to sort it out amongst themselves, and withhold the subsidies. This would probably cause poverty and rioting, but it would save Britain money. I don't think it's ever been contemplated. British governments aren't that uncaring.

[bin.dare]

35. I agreed with everything you said until the very last word ...

that "British governments aren't that uncaring" flies in the face of its colonial history and its recent history. share you feelings with the 500,000 iraqi children dead because of the US/UK sactions during the 1990s. That's Ok, don't bother, it would take us off topic.

[ally_sc]

53. i agree it would take us off topic

don't you think that though that the English want to stay involved because of the Irish economy is doing well? when this first started i thought blair was sincere. i know longer think that. i think he wants to leech off ireland's robust economy.

[muriel_volestrangler]

55. The Republic's economy is doing fine

but that is not having much effect in Northern Ireland. From a 2003 review of the Northern Irish economy:

Northern Ireland cannot continue to rely indefinitely on public expenditure to drive its economy. Rather it requires the development of a more entrepreneurial culture that will build a strong private sector going forward. To encourage local entrepreneurship and attract foreign direct investment we must be prepared to consider radical approaches. We cannot afford to take a cautious approach to economic development if we are to achieve the growth in output and employment required both to close the prosperity gap with the rest of the UK and to meet the demands of a growing workforce.

http://www.detini.gov.uk/cgi-bin/downdoc?id=192

Average earnings (and thus tax receipts) are less than the UK average; government spending is higher. It is not benefitting the rest of the UK.

[Taxloss]

57. NI's economy is suffering from the decline of manufacturing

It's experiencing the pain the mainland went through, only a bit later:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4121125.stm

[Donkeyboy75]

64. And they don't have the capability to adapt.

They can't move towards a cheaper, English-speaking workforce with low taxes. That's how Ireland pulled out.

This is a major reason why many Irish don't want reunification. Economic drain.

[Taxloss]

65. Well, also the Troubles themselves are big big economic problem.

Even now. Divided neighbourhoods hold back investment and labour mobility.

[Donkeyboy75]

66. True dat.

It just looks like unentanglement there will always be too difficult to pull off equitably.

[SweetLeftFoot]

90. Unilateral withdrawal

Documents released under the 30 year law show that when the Prods workers strike brought down the old Executive in 1974, the Brit PM of the time (Wilson I think) did seriously consider such a move.

Google it.

[struggle4progress]

21. Sinn Fein attacks IRA robbery claims

<snip> Following top level claims that the IRA was behind the £22 million Belfast bank robbery, Sinn Fein's Mitchel McLaughlin attacked the "politically motivated accusations from NIO securocrats". <snip>

But McLaughlin claimed the allegations of IRA involvement were a clear attempt to divert attention from the DUP's failure to back a return to power sharing government in Northern Ireland.

"There is no doubt that the process has been in difficulty since December, when the DUP refused to sign up for power sharing government and this situation has been worsened as a result of Hugh Orde's politically motivated accusations," he claimed.

"There is also no doubt that there are those within the NIO who are seeking to exploit this difficulty to bring about the exclusion of Sinn Fein and ensure that the comprehensive deal will not be achieved." <snip>

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1136168


Orde has not a scintilla of evidence ­ - Ó Caoláin
Sunday, January 09

Speaking at the unveiling of a Memorial to Volunteer John Francis Green in Castleblayney, Co. Monaghan, Sinn Féin Dáil leader Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin TD, said it was a disgrace that the Irish Government and most of the media had accepted without question the opinion of Hugh Orde on the Belfast bank robbery. He said Orde has produced not a scintilla of evidence to back his allegations. Deputy Ó Caoláin said:

I believe there is a securocrat agenda at work. It is a disgrace that the Irish Government and most of the media have accepted without question the opinion of Hugh Orde, who has produced not a scintilla of evidence to back his allegations.

Sinn Féin negotiator Martin McGuinness has stated that he was told by the IRA that it was not involved. I accept that assurance from a republican whose record in advancing the peace process is second to none. And I ask the Irish government and those sections of the media: Why do you take without question the word of an appointee of the British government who represents no-one in this country while dismissing summarily that of an elected representative of the Irish people? <snip>

http://www.politics.ie/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=6808


Paying the price
Bank raid may scupper Orde's £25,000 bonus

Exclusive by Alan Murray

09 January 2005
THE IRA may have 'robbed' Chief Constable Hugh Orde of a massive £25,000 bonus!

For the £26.5 million Northern Bank robbery could hit Mr Orde heavily in his own pocket, if the Policing Board decide not to award him all or part of a 15pc "performance related" bonus.

DUP board member Sammy Wilson last night warned the Northern heist "represented a massive rise in serious crime", and would "weigh heavily" when Mr Orde's bonus was being considered.

Senior Ulster Unionist, Lord Maginnis said he would also question awarding the bonus, adding he had "lost faith" in Mr Orde's management. <snip>

http://www.sundaylife.co.uk/news/story.jsp?story=599004

[Maple]

24. Now THAT

would be hilarious. Lie for the Lords and get screwed.

Twas ever thus.

[bin.dare]

25. that bonus angle is very interesting ...

... so just imagine what the situation would be if he DIDN'T have the IRA to blame. Not only would be lose his bonus but job and perks as well. Are people motivated by things like that?

[newscott]

27. In a word?

ETA.

[bin.dare]

36. now that i think about it, there are lots of bogeymen out there ...

... these guys would never be caught short for someone to blame.

[jukes]

28. blair snatching @ straws

his ship is sinking in the wake of bush's war machine; he wants to galvanize w/ his own version of "911".

he's def the moral brother of the fratboy.

[CONN]

37. Ahern bases this on Orde's opinion

Mr Ahern said he had no reason to doubt Chief Constable Hugh Orde’s assessment that the IRA was responsible for the £26.5m (€38m) Northern Bank raid.
source http://breaking.tcm.ie/2005/01/09/story183895.html
And Orde said it was his opinion ...

Seems to me that Ahern (ie, government in Ireland) and British are trying to sabotage Sinn Fein.

[bin.dare]

39. you have it exactly right ...

... opinion becomes fact, believe becomes fact. Why? you are correct, to de-legitimize Sinn Fein. That is what this is all about.

[dflprincess]

38. Ever notice how much of the world's violence can be traced to the

British Empire?

India - pit the Hindus and the Moslems against each other

Middle East - it was the Jews and the Moslems

Ireland - the Protestants and the Catholics

[sweetheart]

41. How about just "empire"

Your statement is absurd given the number of civilians america has
killed with bombs since 1945. Next to any one of those conflicts the
situation in NI is really tiny.

When the "planters" went and colonized ireland, they went as well to
north america from which the word "plantation" comes. These settlers
who took their business in to other people's lands, stirred up the
hatred that we now see in a more recent settling of the zionist colony.

It seems that the behvaiour is repeated by the empire of the day, and
some of your critique is unfair. The british empire did not create
the hindu/moslem violence... that is its own issue. Rather you should
add in Kenya where britain did a horrible thing to the peoples there
with concentration camps and mass murders... really sick stuff, just
like america is doing today in iraq.

Canada is a british colony, australia as well... and in each you see
the historic pattern of whites repressing dark-skinns... just britain
outlawed slavery before the american civil war.

Depending on your historical frame, you could replace "british emprie"
with japanese empire, roman empire, greek empire, spanish empire,
french empire, and on and on..... it seems the very attempt to
establish empire is to force will of military force on others.

Northern ireland for all its sins, is a peaceful place, with fewer
deaths by violence than an american city. Proportion is always
healthy when looking at such things.

[Maple]

45. Excuse me?

Canada is not a British colony, and the British empire outlawed slavery in 1833. Canada never had any.

Northern Ireland has been murder and mayhem for generations. Thatcher's years were especially bad. Bobby Sands, Bernadette Devlin...mass murder.

It's been quieter recently because of the peace process.

[jmcgowanjm]

49. Canadians need to get the queen off their money then

Every time Canadians look at their money, with few
exceptions, they see Queen Elizabeth II, a British monarch.
While the Queen is our head of state, many do not think
this should be the case any longer.  Leaving those
arguments aside, there are still good reasons for doing this
with our money.

http://www.uni.ca/debate1.html

[sweetheart]

56. Are we talking historically long?

The queen can still disband the canadian parliament... and canada is
still a member of the commonwealth. It was a british colony, and
the entire system of government, courts and whatnot is all from british
models... so come on mate, mince words.

Northern Ireland has fewer murders than any major US city. I was
simply pointing out that it is given much media headroom considering
the actual numbers. There is a tendency for people to think that,
because the regular gun crimes and murder levels of US cities are
"normal" that northern ireland must be worse... hardly.

The distortion lives on.

You're excused.. :-)

[muriel_volestrangler]

60. During the 1980s, the NI homicide rate was lower than the USA

NI:

http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/research/rp99/rp99-056.pdf

page 15: 1970s, peaked at 250 per million population; byt the end of the 70s, about 80 per million
1980s: between about 40 and 70 per million

USA:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/hmrt.htm

1970 to 1990, between 8 and 10 per 100,000

[Maple]

43. Yes, divide and conquer was the rule

Get people fighting amongst themselves, and the Brits were seen as the outside 'objective' force to sort it all out.

The world will be generations recovering from the UK urge to run things, and bring goodies home to Mama Victoria. It was the largest empire in modern times.

[Maple]

47. Why are there so many Orangemen on DU??

Sinn Fein is a socialist party fighting on behalf of the people of Ireland against the British power and might for generations.

The Orange Lodge is the old British Empire model...the 'establishment'

I think some Democrats are backing the wrong horse here.

[newscott]

50. I'll not dispute your facts

But let's face it, nowadays there's plenty of blame to go around. Starts in England of course.

[Bono71]

58. That is a serious over-simplification of what SF is. n/t

[muriel_volestrangler]

59. Why do so many DUers worship Sinn Fein, and ignore the SDLP?

A left of centre party that wants a united Ireland, and yet never advocated murdering innocent people?

[bin.dare]

61. worship is the wrong word, and ignore is the wrong word ...

... it is not an either/or situation.

i would say most people have great respect for the SDLP, they have contributed enormously to the advancement of the nationalists, John Hume deserved all the kudos he got/gets.

At the moment,Sinn Fein is being dumped upon, and therefore our current sympathies lay with them. Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness have shown outstanding courage over the past 30+ years; not a single politician, current or recent past, in the UK or the republic has shown anything remote like this. If you call that worship, go ahead, as far as i'm concerned it is a statement of fact about these two extraordinary men.

[jman0]

71. Because the SDLP are finished electorally

They, of any Nationalist party, derived their electoral power off the backs of the IRA (ironically). Because they could say "look we don't have anything to do with the IRA so vote for us"
Now that the IRA are on permanent ceasefire, Sinn Feinn is unbridled and is running circles around them.
Pull the rug out from under the SDLP (the IRA being the rug) and what happens? The SDLP fall to the ground. They have weak policies and are willing to cooperate with the Police Board.

[bin.dare]

52. McGuinness rejects Ahern accusations over bank heist

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2005/0110/breaking58.htm

Sinn Féin's chief negotiator, Mr Martin McGuinness, today rejected the Taoiseach's accusation that senior party leaders were aware of the Belfast bank heist while in talks with both governments.
Mr McGuinness said his party had worked "closely" with Mr Ahern down through the years, and had done so "with honesty and in a straightforward manner." He said he rejected "outright" accusations of "double-dealing and dishonesty."

...

Mr McGuinness said now was not the time for the governments to give up on the process. He said Sinn Féin had "invested huge time and resources in the peace process, as have others, and we will not allow unsubstantiated allegations to deflect us in our work."
Describing PSNI Chief Constable Hugh Orde's assertion that the IRA was involved in December's bank robbery as a case of "political intervention." Mr McGuinness said it was disappointing that people "are prepared to accept the word of Hugh Orde despite the fact he has not produced one iota of evidence to suggest that republicans were behind this robbery."
He said Mr Orde's assertion was as a result of "intelligence reports from faceless securocrats who have a less than honourable record in this country."
...

The Democratic Unionist Party leader, the Rev Ian Paisley, said that because of the IRA's alleged involvement in the bank robbery, Sinn Féin had ruled themselves out of the political process in Northern Ireland

[ally_sc]

54. evidence?

there is no evidence unless the police are withholding info...
i hope they will give SF a political voice. they need to heard. the loyalists are heard.

[mtnester]

62. Look over there! eom

[bin.dare]

68. the chorus is underway --- they want Sinn Fein out ...

... remember this is all about Sinn Fein and not the IRA.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2005/0111/breaking61.htm

Unionist stance on robbery 'entirely reasonable' - Murphy
By Patrick Logue Last updated: 11-01-05, 16:57

Northern Secretary Paul Murphy has said it is "entirely reasonable" for unionists to refuse to co-operate with Sinn Féin following the £26.5 million sterling Northern Bank robbery that has been blamed on the IRA.

In a statement on the robbery to the House of Commons in London, Mr Murphy said the British government would only promote a power-sharing deal "if the Provisional IRA not only gives up terrorism but also all the other forms of criminality in which it is implicated.

"Unionists in Northern Ireland have made clear that if those tests are met, they will work with Sinn Féin in a power-sharing executive," Mr Murphy said.

...

Speaking in London following Mr Murphy's remarks, Sinn Féin national chairperson Mr Mitchel McLaughlin said Sinn Féin would stan over its record in the peace process and that the party would not take lectures from from any British government on criminality.

"Furthermore Sinn Féin will not take lectures from any British government on criminality when successive British governments engaged in a policy of state sanctioned murder against the nationalist community through their control and direction of the unionist death squads. The current British government of which Paul Murphy is part continues to cover-up this activity."

[ally_sc]

69. bindare...

that really blows do you think it can be resolved? or is it to little too late...

[bin.dare]

107. i honestly don't know. but here is one perspective ...

... from Harry Browne in CounterPunch yesterday

http://www.counterpunch.org/browne01112005.html

If "someone" is indeed the IRA, there is remarkably little debit side to this payday. The political process was going to be on hold until the UK elections anyway, so Sinn Fein faces no awkward, unpalatable dilemmas about voting, in the name of "power-sharing", to make the ranting anti-Catholic bigot, Rev Ian Paisley, the political leader of Northern Ireland, still under British rule. And this political hold-up also means there is no urgent need for the party to sign on to the Northern Ireland Policing Board. These were the concessions most agonising for the republican grassroots, and now they are no more available than they are desirable. The robbery simply underlines this.

There will, of course, be a concerted effort to make the party suffer electorally because of the heist, but in Northern Ireland as everywhere in the world working-class people are not notably hostile to bank-robbers, especially those who draw no blood while collecting the money. And Sinn Fein's rival for Irish-nationalist votes in the North, the SDLP, is a dilapidated shell of its former self, almost certainly incapable of rousing itself this side of the election. Southern voters would be more susceptible to the coming political and media blitz to demonise Sinn Fein, and they have more political alternatives, but elections for a Dublin government are still probably years away.

Years away, too, is any chance of a power-sharing executive in Northern Ireland, because the arguments, eventual criminal charges and court cases arising from the bank-job are likely to drag on. Instead, we'll have the politically ugly sight of direct rule from London, which could itself further enhance the prospects for Irish-republican politics. What remains very, very unlikely is any significant return to a shooting war in the North's streets, because there is virtually no appetite for it.

All of which suggests that if the IRA didn't carry out the Northern Bank robbery, then perhaps it should have.

[ally_sc]

108. well it would seem bindare

that possibly there will be the same under current as has been for the 700 or plus years. i feel the same thing is happening here in the states because of bushie. i know you want to get out from under england's thumb and be your own free and green like God intended it to be. i will hope SF will be heard. The constable or whoever still has no evidence. take care...ally_sc

[eric144]

70. Republicans snookered

"they want Sinn Fein out "

So they do, and the reason is that MI5 has had more than enough time (during the peace process) to discover who the members of the Provisional IRA are. If they do anything really naughty like plant a bomb, they'll pick up the lot of them.

I say that because there is no way they would treat Sin feinn like this if they were concerned about a threat from the IRA.

The BIG mistake they made was to believe that either the British government or George Mitchell (US government proxy) were honest and neutral brokers.

[jman0]

72. don't be silly

eric144
First of all, if your theory of MI5 was tru then it would appear inconsistant that the IRA would be able to blow stuff up and execute certain persons leading right up to the GFA, not to mention rob all this money from the bank (if you believe the current hype).

You place far too much confidence in British intelligence. They failed miserably in NI just as they failed in Iraq.

The reason they are treating SF like this is because they are afraid of SF's electoral rise, and are getting more and more desperate to try and derail the train. The train being both SF and the current Peace Process.

SF knows that HMG (Her Majesty's Government) are not honest brokers, for chrissakes that is probably the loudest running theme in Irish history.

The reason for the ceassation of military operations is because the situation matured, and the violence of the 70's, 80's and 90's is not going to do anything but make matters worse.

[jman0]

73. Stakeknife

I wouldn't be so ethusiasic to believe the British press about Mi5 spy allegations, particularly Stakeknife.
Remember when they were claiming this person was now outside Ireland and in a British safe house when in fact he was giving interviews to journalists from West Belfast at the time?

Read what Danny Morrison has to say about it:

"If Stakeknife was such a senior figure, sabotaging the IRA, then throughout the past ten years he or she did not do such a great job when one recalls the mortar attack on 10 Downing Street in 1991 and the bombings in Bishopsgate and Canary Wharf or on the British army’s HQ in Lisburn in 1997 when a soldier lost his life. It is alleged that last year the IRA broke into the Special Branch HQ at Castlereagh and stole intelligence files and had a spy ring at the heart of government. If so, where was Stakeknife to stop them?"

http://www.dannymorrison.com/articles/stakeknife.php


He makes a good point that while traditionally the British Ministry of Defence refuses to comment on individual security matters, yet in this case they are very talkative. It smacks of of conspiracy if u ask me.

[ally_sc]

74. i agree

with all that you said and i find this intersting as i used to have family that traveled in the south every summer in the late 70's. i try to keep up with things but with all that is going on in the states here it is very hard.
i would not trust anyone that had warm relations with bush right now...that is blair, or the royal family. everyone knows and it is unfortunate that people with money remain in power. i respect what SF has done with the peace process.

[eric144]

78. intelligence community

It's their job to tell lies , so it's very hard to know the truth. I do trust Neil McKay of the Herald who has broken a lot of big stories including several from NI and the arrest of the Israelis during the 9/11 operation.

However, I remember seeing a Channel 4 (UK) news item that claimed to have hard evidence that MI5 were deeply involved in the Omagh bombing (bomb maker was an MI5 officer).MI5 deliberately exposed two agents (one called Fulton) to protect this bomber and they spoke to Channel 4. A list D notice was (I assume) issued by the government and the story disappeared.

It's fairly obvious to me that MI5 in collusion with the provisional IRA set up the real IRA and bombed Omagh, a CATHOLIC town to destroy their (the real IRA)credibility in the catholic community. The Sein Feinn offices were mysteriously closed that day.

As far as I'm concerned, that is the dirty little secret both the IRA (with Danny Morrison) and the British government are trying to hide. That's why the IRA (or whoever) broke into Castlereagh police station and stole all the Omagh documents.

As far as I'm concerned, Adams and McGuness are in effect working for the British. I suspect they were made offers they couldn't refuse (not having a bullet through your head is a great incentive) The simple fact is that Sein Feinn have been kicked all over the place by Unionists and Brits and all they ever do is whimper and stay on the leash. NOT ONCE have the IRA threatened to start up their military efforts. The policy was the ballot box AND the gun.

The British government deliberately put NI on the very brink of civil war by setting out a clear path to a united Ireland and McGuiness was crowing all over the place about how Unionists had been led up the garden path. Well, it was the other way round as history has proved because there will NEVER be a united Ireland, not even the Irish government wants it and it is clearly EXCLUDED from the Good Friday Agreement. Adams and McGuiness are still alive of course and being paid very large salaries ($1500,000 a year I believe) to work for Her Majesty the Queen.

I have no personal interest in this apart from the fact I live in Glasgow and knew some Northern Irish people who travelled here every other weekend . I remember the alleged story of a ship from Poland being seized with heavy weapons (artillery) destined for NI protestants. If a full blown war had started, I couldn't see how it wouldn't have led to violence here as well.

The current campaign against the IRA is to discredit Sein Feinn, no question. What Adams hasn't understood is that it is in the interests of both the Irish and British governments to get bury Sein Feinn and they will never have large scale democratic success.

I put some of these up before, but here are some links about Omagh I collected since that time.


British double-agent was in Real IRA's Omagh bomb team

http://www.sundayherald.com/print17827

IRA torturer was in the Royal Marines

http://www.sundayherald.com/29997

'Stakeknife' trial cover-up claim

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3490625.stm

The army asked me to make bombs for the IRA, told me I had the Prime Minister's blessing ... then tried to kill me
http://www.sundayherald.com/25646



Northern Ireland: Allegations of British collusion in Omagh bombing

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/sep2001/ire-a04_prn.shtml

Ulster spies to 'blow MI5 cover'

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/northernirelandassembly/story/0,9061,750426,00.html

An insider to probe an inside job

http://www.irlnet.com/aprn/archive/2002/March28/28cast.html



Fulton to hand over MI5 tapes to Ore Loan

http://www.irishnews.com/current/news1.html

Revealed: the evidence that forced a new Omagh inquiry

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Northern_Ireland/Story/0,2763,538098,00.html

Fulton's Diary Among Missing Castlereagh Documents

http://www.humanrightsonline.net/castlereagh.html

FBI and MI5 paid supergrass $27,500 a month

http://members.freespeech.org/irishpows/bb3/march_2002.htm#FBI and MI5 paid supergrass $27,500 a month


Video to name agents and expose British dirty tricks

http://cryptome.org/mi5-dirty.htm

[ally_sc]

79. thank you for the links i bookmarked them

i hope to be able to visit Ireland one day North and South...

[jman0]

81. conspiracy heaped ontop of conspiracy

such tangled webs, gives me a headache.
Firstly, a Omagh bomb is not necessary to "discredit" the Real IRA because that organizaion lacked support to begin with.
Don't you think that that is just a wee bit far fetched?
The Provo's seem to know how to do their own housekeeping, does the organization IPLO ring any bells?

Stole all the Omagh documents from Castlereagh...
I read like one report that suggested among items missing was the diary of Fulton, but I don't know how credible such information is.

As far as Adams and McGuiness working for the Brits, that is just crazy talk. C'mon McGuinness would eat Mi5 for breakfast.
But are you suggesting that the IRA should threaten a return to violence? Why what good would that do?
Fact is, being on cessastion for so long they probably would find that a difficult thing to do, "Paddy factor" notwithstanding.

But you are mistaken that a United Ireland is excluded from the GFA, in fact, a United Ireland has actually never been as close.
Because with the GFA (a treaty signed by both HMG and RoI lodged with the UN) the Brits must allow for a referendum on a United Ireland should a majority within NI want one. How else would a United Ireland ever be achieved? It certainly wasn't going to come about via force of arms!

[eric144]

84. the armalite and the ballot box

"Don't you think that that is just a wee bit far fetched?"

No I don't, I provided a lot of links that suggest otherwise.

"does the organization IPLO ring any bells?"

I just read that for the first time, it's too deep for my personal knowledge of republicanism.


"C'mon McGuinness would eat Mi5 for breakfast."

MI5 have massive funding and access to the most modern technolgy including complete assistance from the FBI and CIA. and they recruit from the brightest from a variety of places. It's like saying Timothy McVeigh could eat the CIA for breakfast.


"The Brits must allow for a referendum on a United Ireland should a majority within NI want one"

Well that proves the English are a lot smarter than the Celts (I am 100% Celt by the way). There will never in a million years be a Sein Fein majority in NI even if every catholic voted for them and there were more catholics than protestants (which there aren't) because of proportional representation. It's the same here in Scotland, the nationalists will never have a majority. The English stole the oil and they're keeping it.

"But are you suggesting that the IRA should threaten a return to violence? Why what good would that do?"

It would move them closer to a united Ireland, at the moment it will literally never happen. They've been duped. Of course with Bush on the warpath, we could have GI's in Ireland and God only knows what that would lead to.

[SweetLeftFoot]

93. Stakeknife

Was most likely a just a black op by the FRU to get the Provos turning in on themselves and paranoid. If Scappaticci really was a Brit agent, he'd have been taken down to Crossmaglen for a debriefing and then left by the side of the road by now.

[eric144]

75. nonsense

"The reason for the ceassation of military operations is because the situation matured, and the violence of the 70's, 80's and 90's is not going to do anything but make matters worse. "

That makes no sense at all, none. Make what worse ?


"They failed miserably in NI just as they failed in Iraq."

They didn't fail in Iraq, that's dumb talk.

[ally_sc]

76. the way i see it...

is the peace talks have been sabatoged by police, British Intelligence, Tony Blair and others that have reasons to not give SF a voice in thir own country.

[eric144]

80. correct

[jman0]

77. make what worse?

The marginalization of the nationalist/catholic/republican community, that's what.

They didn't fail in iraq? What about those reports about Saddam having chemical weapons ready to fire within 45 minutes? What kind of intelligence "success" do you think THAT is?

[eric144]

82. military campaign

The military campaign got them from not even having a vote to having a promise from John Major of a direct route to a united Ireland and Ian Paisley being ejected from Downing street with a flea in his ear. Nothing else would have.


"What kind of intelligence "success" do you think THAT is?"

Was there a war like Blair and Bush wanted - yes ? I call that a 100% success. Have Blair and Bush been indicted as war criminals for attacking a country without provocation or UN approval - no they haven't because MI6 had everybody talking about the patently obvious falsified intelligence reports and the MURDER of David Kelly.

[jman0]

83. say what?

"..having a promise from John Major of a direct route to a united Ireland"

Bullshit, now you trust HMG in what they say behind closed doors? WTF?
Nope, put it in writing, make it as real as possible. Tis the only reason China got Hong Kong back.

While I agree that Blair and Bush got the war they wanted (sortof) It is not an Intelligence success but a propaganda one. Because for 1) Mi6 let the PM down, as well as themselves in there capacity as intelligence gatherers. How can they be trusted in future?
2) Blair looks like a liar now, and is unelectable thanks to Mi6.

[eric144]

85. in public

The whole thing was laid out in detail and in public, cross border institutions were set up . I assume you don't live in the UK.

MI6 didn't let anyone down, the government made up their own intelligence and blamed MI6.

Again I assume you don't live in the UK because Blair will be re-elected as long he has the support of Mr Murdoch. He also has a large lead in the opinion polls.


PUBLISHED VOTE INTENTION FIGURES - NEWS OF THE WORLD JAN 05

Conservative 31%
Labour 38%
Liberal Democrat 21%
Other 10%

http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/reviews/2005/NOTW%20Poll%20Jan%2005/notw-poll-Jan05.htm

[jman0]

86. public

"The whole thing was laid out in detail and in public, cross border institutions were set up . I assume you don't live in the UK."

Thankfully, i don't live in the UK.
John Major never set up squat.
Besides, if Winston Churchill couldn't "deliver" NI in exchange for Brits use of Irish ports during WWII, then do you really think John Major could deliver anything?

Those numbers for Labour look down. They took a hammering the last time I remember the Brits went to the polls (not General Election, but for MP's i think).

But I suppose the Brits may very well be just as shallow and short of memory, if not more than the yanks.

[eric144]

91. Americans

would be much better to stay at home and not interfere in things about which they know nothing (like Iraq). British elections are different from American ones, local council elections are very poor indicators of national ones.

This from the actual 'framework document' agreement itself (Irish government website)

North/South Institutions
24. Both Governments consider that new institutions should be created to cater adequately for present and future political, social and economic inter-connections on the island of Ireland, enabling representatives of the main traditions, North and South, to enter agreed dynamic, new, co-operative and constructive relationships.

25. Both Governments agree that these institutions should include a North/South body involving Heads of Department on both sides and duly established and maintained by legislation in both sovereign Parliaments. This body would bring together these Heads of Department representing the Irish Government and new democratic institutions in Northern Ireland, to discharge or oversee delegated executive, harmonising or consultative functions, as appropriate, over a range of matters which the two Governments designate in the first instance in agreement with the parties or which the two administrations, North and South, subsequently agree to designate. It is envisaged that, in determining functions to be discharged or overseen by the North/South body, whether by executive action, harmonisation or consultation, account will be taken of:
(i) the common interest in a given matter on the part of both parts of the island; or
(ii) the mutual advantage of addressing a matter together; or
(iii) the mutual benefit which may derive from it being administered by the North/South body; or
(iv) the achievement of economies of scale and the avoidance of unnecessary duplication of effort.
In relevant posts in each of the two administrations participation in the North/South body would be a duty of service. Both Governments believe that the legislation should provide for a clear institutional identity and purpose for the North/South body. It would also establish the body's terms of reference, legal status and arrangements for political, legal, administrative and financial accountability. The North/South body could operate through, or oversee, a range of functionally-related subsidiary bodies or other entities established to administer designated functions on an all- island or cross-border basis.

http://foreignaffairs.gov.ie/angloirish/frameworkdocument/default.asp

also


http://pubs.socialistreviewindex.org.uk/sr184/notes.htm

"Union blues

More than quarter of a century on from the first civil rights marches in Northern Ireland and after more than two decades of armed struggle, just what has been achieved? The long awaited framework document drafted by British and Irish politicians has finally been unveiled by John Major and the Irish Republic's prime minister, John Breton.

The document states that Northern Ireland will remain part of the United Kingdom with a new assembly running its affairs. Important legislation will require a two thirds majority while a three person panel (made up of two Unionist representatives and one from the Nationalist Social Democratic and Labour Party) oversees the assembly's work. The London and Dublin governments have powers to intervene if any party blocks the assembly's workings.

Sitting over this body will be a joint body bringing together ministers from this new assembly and from the Irish parliament, with powers over 'policy areas of mutual interest'. Britain will change the constitutional position of Northern Ireland allowing its status within the United Kingdom to be decided by its population.

The new Northern Ireland assembly will have little more power than a local council on this side of the Irish Sea. It will not control matters of security. Its decisions and funding will be subject to veto by Tory politicians in London and Dublin.

Republicans attach great importance to the new 'cross border institutions'. These have also been targeted by Unionists like Ian Paisley. Both, for their own reasons, present these as stepping stones to a united Ireland. But the Republican leadership talks of any such development taking decades.

Yet just what will these 'cross border institutions' bring to the people of Ireland? One area they will have some control over is health care. In the North, health provision is under attack from Tory privatisation and cuts, while across the border there is no full welfare state. Any 'cross border institution' will do nothing to improve this situation.


http://pubs.socialistreviewindex.org.uk/sr184/notes.htm

[jman0]

94. here

"1. The participants endorse the commitment made by the British and Irish Governments that, in a new British-Irish Agreement replacing the Anglo-Irish Agreement, they will:

(i) recognise the legitimacy of whatever choice is freely exercised by a majority of the people of Northern Ireland with regard to its status, whether they prefer to continue to support the Union with Great Britain or a sovereign united Ireland;
ii) recognise that it is for the people of the island of Ireland alone, by agreement between the two parts respectively and without external impediment, to exercise their right of self-determination on the basis of consent, freely and concurrently given, North and South, to bring about a united Ireland, if that is their wish, accepting that this right must be achieved and exercised with and subject to the agreement and consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland;

(iii) acknowledge that while a substantial section of the people in Northern Ireland share the legitimate wish of a majority of the people of the island of Ireland for a united Ireland, the present wish of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland, freely exercised and legitimate, is to maintain the Union and, accordingly, that Northern Ireland's status as part of the United Kingdom reflects and relies upon that wish; and that it would be wrong to make any change in the status of Northern Ireland save with the consent of a majority of its people;

(iv) affirm that if, in the future, the people of the island of Ireland exercise their right of self-determination on the basis set out in sections (i) and (ii) above to bring about a united Ireland, it will be a binding obligation on both Governments to introduce and support in their respective Parliaments legislation to give effect to that wish;


from http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/peace/docs/agreement.htm

*read section iv please

[eric144]

98. I know that

The problem is that it cannot happen. the only way to know if if a majority want a unite Ireland would be if Sein Feinn had a majority in the assembly which is mathematically virtually impossible.

By the way, at the moment, the assembly has been indefinitely suspended and will remain that way until the British government has Sein feinn where it wants it (crippled).

It is worth remmebering that the Irish government wants to destroy Sein feinn as much as the British government which should end all fantasies anyone has about a uniited Ireland because it will never happen.

Even if Sein Feinn did get a majority in 3000 years time (and they won't). The protestants wouldn't accept it.

[jman0]

100. um

It's not up to "the Protestants" to accept it or not.
And you are incorrect, the text does not refer to a majority within the NI Assembly, just a majority of people in NI.

[SweetLeftFoot]

92. Ironic really

that yesterday, Johnny "Mad Dog" Adair, former C Company UDA commander, a man with the blood of dozens of innocent people on his hands, was flown by British military helicopter to meet his crack-dealing family in Manchester before heading off to Spain to live in a mansion.

Its the same old shite - if youre catholic you get blamed for everything, if you're a Prod, well, it doesn't matter that you've violated the ceasefire repeatedly, they'll fly you off to the sunshine.

I look forward to Hugh Ordfe's DETAILED investigation into how Adair came about the millions of pounds he has stashed away in Spain.

[bin.dare]

125. more voices in the chorus ....

Trimble says 'back to drawing board' for NI parties

It is time for political parties in Northern Ireland to go back to the drawing board following the failure of republicans to abandon criminality, Ulster Unionist Party leader, Mr David Trimble, said tonight.
(more)
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2005/0113/breaking78.htm

..........

SDLP claims Sinn Fein has abused mandate

The SDLP today castigated Sinn Féin over the IRA's suspected involvement in the Belfast bank heist.
(more)
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2005/0113/breaking54.htm

..........................

McDowell says Republicans 'lied repeatedly' on criminality

The Minister for Justice, Mr McDowell, has launched a stinging attack on the Republican movement in the aftermath of the £26.5 million Northern Bank robbery that was blamed on the IRA.
(more)
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2005/0113/breaking77.htm

[ally_sc]

127. bindare..thks for the links eom

[jmcgowanjm]

87. Love the info here! Bottom line: Money, the Brits don't have it

NI is kept in the fold with troops and treasure

NI has no oil/gas and costs London
6 billion pounds/year

Blair (or successor) will be pulling troops soon,
to send to Iraq.

Watch

[ally_sc]

88. do you honestly believe

your PM is going to send troops to Iraq. Doesn't he stand a lot to lose in the relection campaign?
I don't live in UK either so I wouldn't have access to know how much London is helping NI. However, if British rule would let NI carry about her own business maybe we would be talking about what kind of cheese NI could export to go on your tea sandwhiches rather than the GFA or peace talks.

[jmcgowanjm]

99. your PM (?) is going to send troops to Iraq

He ain't mine.

Doesn't he stand a lot to lose in the relection campaign?

Blair's under assault from all quarters.
I don't know what's holding him up

I wouldn't have access to know how much London is helping NI.

They do like to bury that kind of info.

But every now and then the Exchequer
demands the MoD account for some of it.

what kind of cheese NI could export

What cheese is NI famous for?

your tea sandwhiches

I don't do tea sandwiches.

Erin Go Bragh!

[ally_sc]

106. lol

you must live in Ireland. Let there be peace...:headbang:

[jmcgowanjm]

121. In my heart

May you have warm words on a cold evening,
a full moon on a dark night, and
the road downhill all the way to your
door.

[ally_sc]

124. i Believe all of us have a heart ..,.

full of fun and may Ireland one day be free and green...JUst like I am hoping the usa will be liberated and blue...

[SweetLeftFoot]

96. Let's not forget

that that Ahern is the head of Fianna Fail, a party which executed IRA members within living memory.

[eric144]

102. excellent point

They are also deadly political rivals of Sein Feinn in the south.

[SweetLeftFoot]

109. There was talk

of FF going to coalition with the Shinners - as FF's ratings fell. Ahern mioght be trying to shore up his left/Republican wing here.

[Tripmann]

103. You are missing the main point of all of this people

The chief constable of northern ireland has blamed the IRA without presenting evidence, because he has none, merely pointing out that 'indicators' point to the IRA. He's clutching at straws, they are innocent until proven otherwise, they have been condemned by the CHIEF CONSTABLE without this proof, who is supposed to be a custodian for fair and just due process. Surprise surprise, the party that got hammered badly in the last elections by Sinn Fein, Fianna fail..the governing party of the republic, blame the IRA too, thus making it more difficult for a rainbow coalition of parties against them to allow Sinn Fein take part, which would probably defeat fianna fail at the General eletion if allowed to happen. This is not about illegal republican activity, its about votes and politics.

Think outside the box everyone. Some of the comments in this thread have been laughable. The fact of the matter is that IRA activity has been the catalyst for the good friday agreement and representation of catholics in the politics of northern ireland. The UK government HAS dealt with terrorists, despite it being unfashionable to do so.

Oh, and Adams stated at the last party conference that the reunification of the island of Ireland IS still the ultimate aim of Sinn Fein.

Tripmann

[ally_sc]

105. i read your post...

what do you think the most responsible action for SF?

[Tripmann]

115. The best action...

...would be to ask for proof as these men must be considered innocent until proven guilty. If the politics of northern ireland has really moven forward then catholics must have the same protections of the law as protestants. If this had been a loyalist action, would there be finger pointing by the chief constable without any presented evidence?? I think not. Double standards, just like the bad old days.

If there is not enough evidence to even bring these men to court, how is there enough to derail a peace process and call for a political party to be shunned from it?

[RogueTrooper]

118. Had this been done by the loyalists?

Yes, there would have been fingerpointing by the NI police.

[Bridget Burke]

122. But would they have pointed their fingers at the Loyalists?

Or the Usual Suspects?

[newscott]

126. That's why I used the ETA example

Remember what happened to the Spanish government that blamed them for the train bombings without presenting evidence?

It's shameful whenever it happens.

[ally_sc]

128. very true about the discust

of the accusations when there is no proof...someone wants to stir something up...it would seem. same thing goes on over here.

[Tripmann]

129. It's obvious...

This is not about illegal republican activity, its about votes and politics.

[ally_sc]

130. yep

all about money, stocks and control...