President sees new interest in religion (contains a must see Bush quote)

[truthpusher]

(note: This is from the Washington Times - some very strong statments in this article (see bold))

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20050111-101004-3771r.htm

President sees new interest in religion

By James G. Lakely

THE WASHINGTON TIMES

President Bush said yesterday that he doesn't "see how you can be president without a relationship with the Lord," but that he is always mindful to protect the right of others to worship or not worship.

Mr. Bush told editors and reporters of The Washington Times yesterday in an interview in the Oval Office that many in the public misunderstand the role of faith in his life and his view of the proper relationship between religion and the government.

"I think people attack me because they are fearful that I will then say that you're not equally as patriotic if you're not a religious person," Mr. Bush said. "I've never said that. I've never acted like that. I think that's just the way it is.

"On the other hand, I think more and more people understand the importance of faith in their life," he said. "America is a remarkable place when it comes to religion and faith. We had people come to our rallies who were there specifically to say, 'I'm here to pray for you, let you know I'm praying for you.' And I was very grateful about that."

more:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20050111-101004-3771r.htm

[saltpoint]

1. The president lies.

He and his people have gone out of their way to leave the impression that card-carrying Christians will receive preferential consideration.

[NYC]

23. That's his relationship with the lord.

Breaking one of the 10 commandments. (Or is he breaking all of them?)

[saltpoint]

75. Both possibilities in your question --

-- are right on target, NYC.

He's broken one or maybe all in one form or another.

[hyphenate]

104. I'm sure along the line

someplace, he's fucked up most of them, if not all of them.

[Drifter]

108. Is rape considered a relationship ?

Cheers
Drifter

[VegasWolf]

133. and the lord spoke, "destroy those heathens and all their children

so the my holy land amerika may have the holy oil to
power its engines of commerce"

[SteveIrving1]

190. If you break 1 you break all 10...

I do believe thats mentioned somewhere in the bible.

[patdem]

2. One Word

:puke:

[saltpoint]

100. : )

[tanyev]

3. Life-long Christian,

but this makes me :puke:

[CO Liberal]

136. The Reason is Simple

Bush is a life-long asshole.

[okieinpain]

156. really, must people would pay little attention to a statment like that

if he wasn't such an asshole.

[saskatoon]

189. asshole!

SI! Mucho Pendejos ( ijust looked up "asshole" online and this seemed to be correct--but whatever, we know he is an asshole in any language

[DavidDvorkin]

4. God, I hate that bastard

Just one more reason to say it.

[eagler]

5. I think it's ironic that Bush is telling this to a reporter

who works for the Washington Times - owned of course by Reverend Moon who was recently coronated "the Messiah" at the Dirksen Federal building in DC. Makes one wonder what Lord he's talking about.

[truthpusher]

19. I find the whole thing utterly...

...creepy :scared:

I can just see Bush in the Oval Office being interviewed by some doe-eyed reporter, getting all lathered up about the Lord...icky!


And this mister Bush who thinks he has a personal relationship with Jesus? Well I gotta tell you something, the first thing Jesus would do if he walked in on this interview....is flip the Presidential Desk over and start throwing all the White House silver out the window....oh, and then he would smack the two of them around a bit. (maybe not the smacking around stuff, but the other part, definitely ):hi:

[calimary]

33. And he says he is always mindful to protect the rights of people to

worship or not worship.

I have two problems with that, specifically (other than just in general).

First: protecting the right of others to worship or not worship - I guess that would be a classic case of "do as I say, not as I do." Wink-wink, snicker-snicker. He can take the "high road" with all this "compassionate conservative" blather, and then sit back while his Crusader-mongrels are set loose on the rest of us, trying to jam their brand of "old time religion" and good ol' republi-CON "family values" down our throats.

Second: his use of the word "mindful." That implies you even HAVE a mind, george. Which is an EXTREMELY questionable assertion.

And now, brothers and sisters, let us bow our heads and pray to GAWD for His mercy and guidance and the answer to that eternal question - Who Would Jesus Smear?

[dmr]

53. Yes, calimary, he does that often in many things doesn't he?

Throws the rock and hides the hand.

I couldn't agree with you more on your statement:
First: protecting the right of others to worship or not worship - I guess that would be a classic case of "do as I say, not as I do." Wink-wink, snicker-snicker. He can take the "high road" with all this "compassionate conservative" blather, and then sit back while his Crusader-mongrels are set loose on the rest of us, trying to jam their brand of "old time religion" and good ol' republi-CON "family values" down our throats.

[Lisa]

145. wink-wink, indeed

Even the fact that he was "exasperated" with people who were worried about the separation of church and state speaks volumes!

He thinks it's funny, and not worthy of serious consideration. He's probably got a Medieval-type "Great Chain of Being" engraved on his brain -- "real" (Protestant) Christians like him are more important than, say, the Methodists who opposed his policies -- and then come "all those other Christian sects" -- and then the other Abrahamic religions (but of course they aren't talking to the "true" God) -- then the "heathen" faiths like Buddhism -- and those darned liberal secular humanists are beneath contempt, a bunch of Commies don't you know!

[davidinalameda]

140. I can just see Bush in the Oval Office

I can just see Bush in the Oval Office being interviewed by some doe-eyed reporter, getting all lathered up

or is it liquored up?

[Megahurtz]

151. LOL!!!

[w4rma]

21. Lord Moon? (nt)

[AuntiBush]

143. Agree!

Awww.. how considerate of him, offering to pray for me. Or did he mean the Moonie-Reporter? Yeah, tell that to the Washington Post.

[CO Liberal]

6. My Prayers Weren't Answered

Pretzelboy is still not in prison.

[clydefrand]

9. Or worse...

[CO Liberal]

7. The First Six Presidents Were Not Christians

Regardless of what this asshole "thinks", not only is being a Christian NOT a requirement for the office, a requirement like that would be unconstitutional.

[w4rma]

24. I believe that Thomas Jefferson was indeed a Christian.

http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/

He definitely wasn't a false Christian like Bush is tho.

[Journeyman]

35. How can you claim Jefferson was a Christian. . .

when by the very evidence you provide -- his personally edited Bible -- deleted all references to miracles and ended with Jesus' death and burial? There was no Resurrection in Jefferson's view of the philosopher Jesus. . . and without the Resurrection, there is no "Christianity."

[mitchum]

38. Absolutely! Jefferson said that Jesus of Nazareth was a great moral...

leader. I feel the same about Ghandi, but that doesn't make me a Hindu.

[CO Liberal]

95. And as The Late Ann Landers Once Said....

..."Goint to church doesn't make a man a Christian any more than going into a garage makes a man an automobile."

:-)

[manly]

196. attribution

that was said by Billy Graham. Hahahaha.If Ann Landers said it without attribution, shame on her.

[CO Liberal]

39. Wrong

As evidence, I present excerpts from a column written by my favorite religious writer, William Edelen:

* * * * *

JEFFERSON AND THE 4th OF JULY
by William Edelen
July 4, 2004

<snip>

I have one bust in my study. It is of Jefferson. On the base are these words: "I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." He uses the word "God" as a DEIST, not as a Christian. A VAST DIFFERENCE. He made this scathing statement aimed at the tyranny of the Christian church. In a letter dated August 22, 1800, Dr. Benjamin Rush wrote this to him: "Republicanism should ally itself to the Christian religion in order to overturn all of the corrupted religions of the world." Jefferson was appalled. He responded with his now famous "every form of tyranny over the mind of man", including the tyranny of the Christian church.

There was, and is, no doubt as to Jefferson's opinion of Christianity.

JESUS: "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by a Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

GOD: "Question with boldness the existence of God...because if there be one, it will much more approve of reason than of blindfolded fear." (written to his nephew)

TRINITY: "It is too late in the day for men of intelligence to pretend they believe that three are one...and one is three...and yet that the one is not three...and the three are not one...let us sweep away the fictitious religion of the priests so that they will catch no more flies." (Jefferson-Adams Letters)

CHRISTIANITY: "I have examined all the known superpositions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstitions of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined , and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites, to support roguery and error all over the earth. Christian creeds and doctrines, the clergy's own fatal inventions, through all of the ages. has made of Christendom a slaughter house." (Notes on Religion, passed in the Assembly of Virginia in the year 1786)

American history scholars, writing for the "Encyclopedia Britannica" have stated that Deism was the religion of our first six Presidents, not Christianity. Quote: "One of the embarrassing problems for the nineteenth century champions of the Christian faith was the fact that not one of the first six presidents of the United States was a Christian. They were Deists." (Chicago, Encyclopedia Britannica, 1968, vol.2; p. 420, Mortimer J. Adler, editor in chief, 'The Annals of America: Great Issues')

* * * * *

You can read the entire article (and many more of his fascinating writings), at his web site. here's a link to the article I referenced:

http://www.williamedelen.com/july42004.html

[w4rma]

61. I'm not convinced that Deism isn't a type of Christianity. (nt)

[TankLV]

68. Typical. When confronted with the facts that disprove your assertions in

no uncertain terms, unilaterally change the definitions of the argument to suit your fallicies presented as bogus facts and pre-conceived notions.

Now who else does that, hmmmm ...?

[CO Liberal]

103. It's a Standard Ploy

Many Christians can't accept the fact that they're wrong about so many things....

[w4rma]

109. Bullcrap.

Just because Deism doesn't fit your preconceived notions of Christianity doesn't mean he isn't a Christian. He supported and followed Jesus's morals. He believed in God. Those are the two most important aspects of Christianity which applies to all 6 Presidents.

Of course, it's extremely obvious that he wouldn't support (and would even oppose) the unreasoning version of Christianity that the fundamentalists conned by the Repugs support.

[pschoeb]

111. A Christian has to beleive that Jesus was Christ and is God

Otherwise Islam would have to be called Christian as they beleive that Jesus was a true prophet, and as any true prophet his teachings have some moral value.

Jefferson did not believe Jesus was Christ or God, in fact Jefferson did not believe even in the concept of Christ, regardless of the claim of who is it.

[CO Liberal]

112. In Order to Be a Christian....

...you have to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. (That much I remember from my Catholic upbringing.) Jefferson did not - he looked upon Jesus as a philosopher - nothing more, nothing less.

Your "important aspects of Christianity" apply to NONE of the first six Presidents. Sorry, but facts are facts.

[Mr_Spock]

179. Funny, I agree with you and the people who disagree with you!

I am a Christian because I believe, as Jefferson thought when coining his "Jefferson Bible", that all you need to - well I believe this:

"Thomas Jefferson believed that the ethical system of Jesus was the finest the world has ever seen. In compiling what has come to be called "The Jefferson Bible," he sought to separate those ethical teachings from the religious dogma and other supernatural elements that are intermixed in the account provided by the four Gospels. He presented these teachings, along with the essential events of the life of Jesus, in one continuous narrative."http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/


I also believe in studying the "Q" or Gospel of Thomas because it is a historical documenting of Jesus and his sayings without all the ad-lib commentary/opining of people like Paul.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/story/qthomas.html
(BTW the whole "From Jesus to Christ" series on PBS was very good and is documented at the link above.)

I also believe that the so called "Christians" do not believe that people like me are true Christians - whatever - I'll try to think like Jesus and understand what he was trying to say, the "Christians" act like the idol worshiping money changers that he so despised. You can call yourselves "Christians" if it makes you feel better - I'm not going to worry about it.

Faux can say they report "news"
And * can say he's "President"

It's all where you place the quotes that matters :D

[VegasWolf]

134. "I know, I know", hand waving in the air. n/t

[Shredr]

152. LOL!

Brilliantly, concisely put! Thanks, I needed that.

[CO Liberal]

89. And I'm Not Convinced....

...that you're thinking this through. It sounds to me like you've been fed a line for so long you can't accept the possibility that what you thought was right may be wrong.

[CO Liberal]

91. From www.dictionary.com

de·ism
n.
The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.

(French déisme, from Latin deus, god. See dyeu- in Indo-European Roots.)

deist n.
de·istic adj.
de·isti·cal·ly adv.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

deism

n : the form of theological rationalism that believes in God on the basis of reason without reference to revelation


Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

* * * * *

Notice there's NO reference to a Christ at all in either of those definitions? Now, logically speaking, how can Deism POSSIBLY be a "type of Christianity"???

Face it - you're wrong on this one.

[saltpoint]

76. Thomas Jefferson was most certainly not a Christian.

Not by a long shot.

[CO Liberal]

93. BINGO!!!!!

Someone who knows the truth!!!!

:hi:

[Jacobin]

141. No kidding. Read this quote. One of my favorite Jefferson quotes

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a Virgin Mary, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.... But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away all this artificial scaffolding. (Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, 11 April 1823, as quoted by E. S. Gaustad, "Religion," in Merrill D. Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: A Reference Biography, New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1986, p. 287.)

[spooked]

163. WOW!! So Jefferson thought that our FREEDOMS

would bring about a higher order of thinking where Christianity would eventually be revealed as a "fable".

WOW! And Just look at us now!!

[Jacobin]

171. It has been a constant give and take

Think Scopes Monkey Trial, what 1920's?

Up until the Pat Robertsons begot the Chimpanzee in Office, we were ahead.

We are falling behind again in this battle against mystics, soothsayers and Talibornagains.

[saltpoint]

169. This quotation is a humdinger.

I love it. I love it a lot.

It's disheartening to see the people upset by Jefferson's example of free thought. On this post alone, they are dressing him in Christian garb.

A doomed project, as your quotation strongly shows.

Thanks yet again, Jacobin.

[Mr_Spock]

180. That's the most beautiful thing I have ever read.

Damn, I idolize Jefferson too much I think!

[truth2power]

129. Jefferson was Anglican by membership

and Unitarian in theology.

[CO Liberal]

130. From The "Dictionary of Unitarian & Universalist Biography" Web Site

The character of Jefferson's religion is one of the most interesting aspects of his intriguing life. Certain evangelicals, who were also his political opponents, tried very hard to make Jefferson's religion a factor in elections. They filled the press with scurrilous attacks on his "deistical" beliefs. He made it his steadfast policy never to respond to any of these attacks or, indeed, to make any public statement at all concerning his faith. Ironically, in spite of the attacks, evangelicals flocked to support Jefferson because they favored the end of tax support for established churches—which meant freedom for their independent churches—as passionately as did he. Today religious conservatives portray Jefferson as a sympathetic figure, unaware of his religious beliefs, his understanding of religious freedom or his criticisms of evangelical religiosity.

These facts about Jefferson's religion are known. He was raised as an Anglican and always maintained some affiliation with the Anglican Church. He was also known to contribute financially, in fair proportion, to every denomination in his town. While a student at William and Mary College, he began to read the Scottish moral philosophers and other authors who had made themselves students of church history. These scholars opened the door for Jefferson's informed criticism of prevailing religious institutions and beliefs. But it was the world renowned English Unitarian minister and scientist, Joseph Priestley, who had the most profound impact on his thought. According to Priestley's Corruptions of Christianity, published in 1782, and many other of his books, the teachings of Jesus and his human character were obscured and obfuscated in the early Christian centuries. As the Church Fathers adapted Christianity to Mediterranean-primarily Greek-forms of thought, they contrived doctrines altogether foreign to Biblical thought, such as the doctrine of the Trinity. Jefferson assumed that a thoroughly reformed Christian faith, true to Jesus' teaching, would be purged of all Greek influence and doctrinal absurdity.

Jefferson never joined a Unitarian church. He did attend Unitarian services while visiting with Joseph Priestley after his immigration to Pennsylvania and spoke highly of those services. He corresponded on religious matters with numerous Unitarians, among them Jared Sparks (Unitarian minister, historian and president of Harvard), Thomas Cooper, Benjamin Waterhouse and John Adams. He was perhaps most open concerning his own beliefs in his long exchange of letters with John Adams during their late years, 1812-26.

It is probably safe to say that Jefferson first acquired from Joseph Priestley features of his world view and faith which he found confirmed to his satisfaction by further thought and study for the rest of his life. These included a withering a scorn for Platonic and all forms of Neoplatonic metaphysics; a fierce loathing of all "priestcraft" whose practitioners he held guilty of deliberately perpetrating rank superstition for centuries, thus maintaining their own power; a serene conviction that Jesus' moral teaching was entirely compatible with natural law as it may be inferred from the sciences; and a unitarian view of Jesus. These features are all well attested in his voluminous private correspondence.

Jefferson's earliest writings on religion exhibit a natural theology, a heavy reliance on reason, and the belief that morality comes not from special revelation but from careful attention to the inward moral sense. In a letter to his nephew Peter Carr in 1787, Jefferson advised, "Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god."

He considered Jesus the teacher of a sublime and flawless ethic. Writing in 1803 to the Universalist physician Benjamin Rush, Jefferson wrote, "To the corruptions of Christianity, I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence, and believing he never claimed any other."

Jefferson found the Unitarian understanding of Jesus compatible with his own. In 1822 he predicted that "there is not a young man now living in the US who will not die an Unitarian." Jefferson requested that a Unitarian minister be dispatched to his area of Virginia. "Missionaries from Cambridge would soon be greeted with more welcome, than from the tritheistical school of Andover." Jefferson's christology is apparent in these and similar letters, and also in one of his most famous writings, the "Jefferson Bible."

<more>

http://www.uua.org/uuhs/duub/articles/thomasjefferson.html

In short, Jefferson was Jefferson. Trying to peg him as a follower of one particular religion or another is senseless, IMHO.

[Journeyman]

135. And there's the one truth in this discussion. . .

"Jefferson was Jefferson" . . . a man unto himself, incapable of being pigeonholed in any easy classification.

[truth2power]

177. Thank you for the article. If I'd had time,

I would have looked it up. I was simply trying to pare it down to the bare bones, in which some degree of complexity is bound to be lost.

[Mr_Spock]

181. Thanks for the post.

I love reading about Jefferson - his reasoned/resonable approach to religion is so refreshing. I wish he was right in his prediction about the Unitarian church - they're definitely not your typical narrow minded hateful Christian church.

[Jacobin]

139. Nope. Bzzzzzt. Rong. Two more tries

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a Virgin Mary, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.... But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away all this artificial scaffolding. (Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, 11 April 1823, as quoted by E. S. Gaustad, "Religion," in Merrill D. Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: A Reference Biography, New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1986, p. 287.)



Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth. (Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363.)

shake off all the fears of servile prejudices under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear. You will naturally examine first the religion of your own country. Read the bible then, as you would read Livy or Tacitus. The testimony of the writer weighs in their favor in one scale, and their not being against the laws of nature does not weigh against them. But those facts in the bible which contradict the laws of nature, must be examined with more care, and under a variety of faces. Here you must recur to the pretensions of the writer to inspiration from god. Examine upon what evidence his pretensions are founded, and whether that evidence is so strong as that it's falshood would be more improbable than a change of the laws of nature in the case he relates.... Do not be frightened from this enquiry by any fear of it's consequences. If it ends in a belief that there is no god, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in it's exercise, and the love of others which it will procure you. If you find reason to believe there is a god, a consciousness that you are acting under his eye, and that he approves you, will be a vast additional incitement. If that there be a future state, the hope of a happy existence in that increases the appetite to deserve it; if that Jesus was also a god, you will be comforted by a belief of his aid and love. In fine, I repeat that you must lay aside all prejudice on both sides, and neither believe nor reject any thing because any other person, or description of persons have rejected or believed it. Your own reason is the only oracle given you by heaven, and you are answerable not for the rightness but uprightness of the decision.... (Thomas Jefferson, letter to his young nephew Peter Carr, August 10, 1787. From Adrienne Koch, ed., The American Enlightenment: The Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free Society, New York: George Braziller, 1965, pp. 320-321.)

[CO Liberal]

155. Bzzzzzzz. YOU'RE Wrong

Jefferson was saying NOT to accept the Bible or Christianity at face value - to examine the writing carefully and draw your own conclusions.

[Jacobin]

160. Did you read what he wrote?

He compared the myth of the virgin birth to a Greek myth and longed for the day that people didn't need to hang their moral compass on such a silly 'scaffold'.

Perhaps you have a loose view of what a Christian is. I've always heard that you must accept the story of the virgin birth and resurrection as truth.

If not, then the general precepts of the New Testament, most people of all "religions' would accept them, but that is NOT christianity.

Sorry. try again

[CO Liberal]

161. And Since He Equated The Virgin Birth To a Myth...

...then he did not accept it as a fact. Ergo, he was not a CHristian.

Thank you for being such a wonderful contestant. What do we have for him, Don Pardo???? Rice-A-Roni, the San Francisco Treat??

[Tangledog]

27. John Adams was a Christian

He came from the Puritan tradition of New England and never left it. He was among the most overtly devout of the founders, and among the "first six".

Posted in the interests of historical accuracy and in the belief that we New Englanders have to stick together :), not to defend bomber jacket boy and his creepy take on faith.

[CO Liberal]

36. No - He Was A Unitarian

Many Christians in this country today are perpetuating the myth that the Founding Fathers were mostly Christians, and that this country was founded on "Christian values". Actually, many of the signers of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were Deists - they believed in a higher power, but not a Holy Trinity.

More info on this can be found on William Edelen's web site. He is a minister who has written extensively about this subject.

http://www.williamedelen.com/

[Virginian]

62. The post 9/11 trinity, God, Bush, Country.

Shoot, before 9/11, Cheney was running the country and Bush was just the figurehead. That may still be the case, but they've gotten better at hiding it.

[AuntiBush]

149. Historically speaking...

A good place to look up the facts fast is American Presidents at http://www.americanpresidents.org/. They list his Religion as "Deism."

Washington: Episcopalian
John Adams: Unitarian
Thomas Jefferson: Deism
James Madison: Episcopalian
James Monroe: Episcopalian
John Quincy Adams: Unitarian

Oddly, under Lincoln, a Republican it lists his religion as " No specific denomination." Huh...

[hollowdweller]

170. Sam Adams was a Brewer and a Patriot

Sorry, couldn't resist;-)

[Stephanie]

96. Bush constantly confuses the Founding Fathers with the Pilgrims

He does this all the time. He doesn't have the first clue about the history of this country.

Wasn't he a history major?

[CO Liberal]

113. A Lot of Christians Do That

They claim the country was founded on "Christian values" because the original settlers in the colonies were Christians. But 150 years later when the country was founded, many of the signers of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution (as well as the first six Presidents) were Deists - not Christians.

It's a standard ploy of the uninformed - if you don't have facts, you talk apples and oranges.

[CO Liberal]

117. Evidence to Back Up My Statement

Words of Our American Founding Fathers

Did the Founding Fathers of the United States really mean to disentangle the Church from the State? Many religious conservatives claim that they did not — Church-State separation, they say, "is a myth, like evolution." They argue that the very concept was invented by the United States Supreme Court in the late 1940s and in later court decisions in the 1960s (supposedly in cases instigated by 'secular humanists,' though this too is false).

It is claimed that, historically, the United States was founded by Christians, strictly for Christians, as a Christian Nation. Frequently quotations are given to support this rather pseudo-historical view, although most of these quotations — if accurate at all — are not even relevant to the debate. Apparently it is believed that by merely demonstrating that if this-or-that particular Founding Father was a pious Christian, that it then follows that Founder (a) supports an accommodationist view. But clearly this is false given that most separationists are themselves very pious Christians. If we wish to understand what the Framers actually intended we must look at what they had to say about religion and the state, not religion per se.

What follows bellow are a number of quotations which corroborate the Supreme Court's constitutional interpretation, which can be simply stated that neither the State nor Federal Government may "pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another." From this evidence it may be concluded that:

(i) The principle of state-church separation was carefully established and incorporated into the constitution by the founders;

(ii) The Establishment Clause was far reaching, intending to go beyond simply abolishing a national-church;

(iii) The Enlightenment had a powerful and dramatic influence on the foundation of the new nation;

(iv) The majority of our leading founders were not even Christians, but rather self-described deists;

(v) That a number of the founders were also, at times, hostile towards Christian theology.

<more>

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/quotes_founders.html

[CornField]

157. More information on the founding fathers

So, you think the US is a christian nation?

The primary leaders of the so-called founding fathers of our nation were not bible-believing christians; they were deists.

Thomas Jefferson was suspicious of the traditional belief that the bible is "the inspired word of god." He rewrote the story of Jesus as told in the New Testament and compiled his own gospel version known as The Jefferson Bible, which eliminated all miracles attributed to Jesus and ended with his burial.

Jefferson said, "And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" (April 11, 1823).

In Notes on the State of Virginia, Jefferson said of this religion, "There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites" (quoted by newspaper columnist William Edelen, "Politics and Religious Illiteracy," Truth Seeker, Vol. 121, No. 3, p. 33).

In 1785, when the Commonwealth of Virginia was considering passage of a bill "establishing a provision for Teachers of the Christian Religion," James Madison wrote his famous "Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments" in which he presented fifteen reasons why government should not be come involved in the support of any religion.

The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, preached a sermon in October 1831 in which he stated that "among all our presidents from George Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism" (Paul F. Boller, George Washington & Religion, pp. 14-15). He went on to describe Washington as a "great and good man" but "not a professor of religion." Wilson said that he was "really a typical eighteenth century Deist, not a Christian, in his religious outlook" (Ibid).
The Reverend Bird Wilson, who was just a few years removed from being a contemporary of the so-called founding fathers, said further in the above-mentioned sermon that "the founders of our nation were nearly all Infidels, and that of the presidents who had thus far been elected _not a one had professed a belief in Christianity_" (Remsberg, p. 120, emphasis added).

The last and least skeptical of these rationalists loaded his First Inaugural Address with appeals to the "Great Author," "Almighty Being," "invisible hand," and "benign parent of the human race," but apparently could not bring himself to speak the word "God" ("The United States in 1787," 1787 The Grand Convention, New York W, W, Norton & Co., 1987, p. 36).

Whatever else it might turn out to be, the Convention would not be a `Barebone's Parliament.' Although it had its share of strenuous Christians like Strong and Bassett, ex-preachers like Baldwin and Williamson, and theologians like Johnson and Ellsworth, the gathering at Philadelphia was largely made up of men in whom the old fires were under control or had even flickered out. Most were nominally members of one of the traditional churches in their part of the country--the New Englanders Congregationalists, and Presbyterians, the Southerners Episcopalians, and the men of the Middle States everything from backsliding Quakers to stubborn Catholics--and most were men who could take their religion or leave it along. Although no one in this sober gathering would have dreamed of invoking the Goddess of Reason, neither would anyone have dared to proclaim that his opinions had the support of the God of Abraham and Paul. The Convention of 1787 was highly rationalist and even secular in spirit" ("The Men of Philadelphia," 1787 The Grand Convention, New York W. W. Norton & Company, 1987, pp. 147-148, emphasis added).

At the constitutional convention, Luther Martin a Maryland representative urged the inclusion of some kind of recognition of Christianity in the constitution on the grounds that "it would be at least decent to hold out some distinction between the professors of Christianity and downright infidelity or paganism." How ever, the delegates to the convention rejected this proposal and, as the Reverend Bird Wilson stated in his sermon quoted above, drafted the constitution as a secular document. God was nowhere mentioned in it.
As a matter of fact, the document that was finally approved at the constitutional convention mentioned religion only once, and that was in Article VI, Section 3, which stated that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."

Lynn R. Buzzard, executive director of the Christian Legal Society (a national organization of Christian lawyers) has admitted that there is little proof to support the claim that the colonial population was overwhelmingly Christian. "Not only were a good many of the revolutionary leaders more deist than Christian," Buzzard wrote, "but the actual number of church members was rather small. Perhaps as few as five percent of the populace were church members in 1776" (Schools They Haven't Got a Prayer, Elgin, Illinois David C. Cook Publishing, 1982, p. 81).

Historian Richard Hofstadter says that "perhaps as many as ninety percent of the Americans were unchurched in 1790" (Anti-Intellectualism in American Life, New York Alfred A. Knopf, 1974, p. 82) and goes on to say that "mid-eighteenth century America had a smaller proportion of church members than any other nation in Christendom," noting that "in 1800 (only) about one of every fifteen Americans was a church member" (p. 89).

[clydefrand]

8. How can we have someone soooooooo stupid as our leader?

"This is a country that is a value-based country," he said. "Whether they voted for you or not, there's a lot of values in this country, for which I'm real proud."


I wish just one reporoter had the guts to ask him if he knows what the hell he is talking about.

Do I want my tax dollars spent on his faith-based initiatives? When I want my money spent on religion, I should be able to choose that. Not our government.

Why isn't Mr. Newdow questioning this too?

[Mr_Spock]

10. "I think that's just the way it is."

Fuck off Dumbya.

[CornField]

15. That's exactly what stood out to me... "I didn't have to declare it

because that's just the way it is." What a pompous asshole! How dare he say or imply that one's religious affliation has *anything* to do with one's level of patriotism.

[proud patriot]

16. That line pisses me off

:grr: "that's just they way it is" :grr:

[bobthedrummer]

31. That's the line that fired me up too, just like saying Seig, Heil!

:argh:

[Straight Shooter]

47. I think we can get a whole chorus of "Amen" to that weird-ass line

"I think people attack me because they are fearful that I will then say that you're not equally as patriotic if you're not a religious person," ** said. "I've never said that. I've never acted like that. I think that's just the way it is."

Less and less subtle, as if he ever was.

Okay, you got me, I'm spiritual but I am definitely not religious and thus you think I'm not patriotic. And if that's the way it is, Little Boots, so be it.

[mcscajun]

120. Pretzel Boy Lies In Pretzel Fashion

"I think people attack me because they are fearful that I will then say that you're not equally as patriotic if you're not a religious person," Mr. Bush said. "I've never said that. I've never acted like that. I think that's just the way it is.."


"I've never said that." followed by "I think that's just the way it is."

So he just did say it, Right after he said he never said it!!! :grr:
Um...That's Saying it, Pretzel Boy! Please....go home to Crawford, Please!

That's it! I'm going out of my mind NOW. Why wait?

[tuvor]

11. In bush's case, it's a dysfunctional relationship with the Lord.

Like the prodigal son who doesn't realize he's prodigal.

[vixengrl]

12. Disturbing, but not surprising from Bush.

After all, his father, on the campaign trail in '87, came up with the quote: "No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." I do believe some of our founding fathers would have been rather shocked at such nonsense.

[spooked]

174. What a quote! & Check out this pic!

This religious "patriotism" is getting dangerous isn't it?

[daleo]

13. Am I reading this correctly?

"I think people attack me because they are fearful that I will then say that you're not equally as patriotic if you're not a religious person," Mr. Bush said.

"I've never said that. I've never acted like that. I think that's just the way it is..."

It sounds like he is saying that he never said religiosity and patriotism go together, except at the end of the statement he says they do, because "that's just the way it is." So, didn't he just say what he says he never says?

[yorkdane]

25. Isn't this what he implied?

"I think people attack me because they are fearful that I will then say that you're not equally as patriotic if you're not a religious person," Mr. Bush said.

"I've never said that. I've never acted like that. I think that's just the way it is..."


Isn't this is what he implied?

...you are not equally as patriotic if you are not a religious person...

I have never said that. I have never acted like that. I think that's just the way it is...you are not equally as patriotic if you are not a religious person.


He contradicted himself...again!


P.S. This is my first post and I am glad to be a DU member in SD.

[Lautremont]

29. I've never been the first to welcome somebody before,

so howdy welcome.

[Dudley_DUright]

32. Let me be the second to welcome you to DU

:hi:

Gland you are here. I am sure you will fit right in (considering your excellent first post). :-)

[pookieblue]

44. This man AND his father make me sick.

I have nothing wrong with Christians nor do I have a problem with any other religon. But what gives people like the Bush's any right to look down their noses at anyone who does not believe as they do.

That family is about as Christian as my cats. No, wait a sec, I don't wanna insult my cats that way.

[daleo]

48. That's about how I read it.

He is having his cake and eating it too ("I didn't call those people unpatriotic, but I can't help it that they are"). And welcome.

[fleabert]

52. welcome to DU!

:toast:

[Virginian]

60. Welcome to DU yorkdane

:bounce:

:hi:

:pals:


:yourock:

[Ferretherder]

78. We're proud to have you here, yorkdane!

Welcome to DU!

[DrZeeLit]

101. Absolutely correct reading of *. And.. welcome to DU from SD!

I'm assuming San Diego, but it could be South Dakota.
I'm a transplanted San Diego girl.

Your reading of his statement is correct. He often does exactly this. It sounds like gibberish and I won't go so far as saying it's contemplated, but it does come out that he makes a "real" statement of his beliefs. Somebody wrote a book about this (egads... can't remember the title... sorry) and it traced how many times he does this type of "Bushspeak." We often laugh at his convolutions, but underneath it, he's telling the truth.

So, yes, he does belief that patriotism and believing in the Lord (aka that's Christ, not Buddha) go hand in hand.

[adigal]

105. Daleo, I thought the same thing you did

Wacko that he is, he thinks we will not get his "code."

And, Bushie, that is NOT the way it is. You don't get to pick the next president. (Well, with diebold, maybe he does.)

[AngryOldDem]

107. That's what I just said....

He is so convoluded at times it's hard to tell just what he means. But I think we're both on to the truth.

[Lizzie Borden]

127. Yes Daleo.

He said one thing then immediately contradicted himself.

[jdj]

14. Lot's of us libruls pray for his ass

not in a way he'd like, but pray for him to get SOME KIND of religion instead of just talking about it.

[Laurab]

22. LOL

Someone once told me to pray for someone I disliked. I said "I can't pray for her". He said "sure you can, pray that she goes to heaven FAST". Now, I'm not suggesting anything like that, I just suddenly thought of it...

[atommom]

34. Does it count if I pray that someone will kick his ass?

[BikeWriter]

71. Hee hee hee! I may be in love.

:)

[atommom]

126. You're too kind.

:)

[Donailin]

172. You're right on that

I once half heartedly prayed that he get cancer, just so he'd know about suffering, but I asked God to delete that message.

[Cookie wookie]

17. The neo-christian movement

with bush as head incubus:

"...Or, as I explained to the prime minister in Western terms, to smoke them out of their caves, to get them running so we can get them."

"We're not into nation-building, we're focused on justice. And we're going to get justice. It's going to take a while, probably. But I'm a patient man. Nothing will diminish my will and my determination -- nothing," said the saintly neo-christian bush.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/9/25/211541.shtml

[electric-eye]

45. No matter how many people he has to slaughter - American or otherwise

what a brave little coward he is, eh?

[IndianaGreen]

18. But Gawd is not an American citizen, doesn't pay taxes, and doesn't give

a shit about millions of people dying during the Holocaust, a horror that He/She/It/They did not lift a finger to prevent or to stop.

[fshrink]

20. The idiot doesn't see much aside from

his personal, immediate, interest. His limited abilities preclude any attempt at more complex operations, but make it easier for him to be a believer. Behind the scene, as always when religion is involved in politics, which is un-constitutional but has become here standard, very clear-minded individuals pull the strings. The show goes on as hords of like-weak-minded join the spiritual fray and trance. But now, the shakepearian idiot has been handed glory by conveniently savvy opponents and calligula, the proud tiny sandal, parades ahead of the army of the people. The little man speaks and speaks, playing the man while the emperor silently watches in contentment and despise.

[sonicx]

26. Well, at least he didn't say atheists weren't citizens...

like Poppa did...

[cosmicdot]

28. now, watch this drive

... think they're steal buying it? ... now, let me go out and lie some more about Social Security ... I mean if I'm all religious and stuff, they'll have to buy my b.s., right?


why does he need to keep selling the idea that he's religious?


how many Moonie Times employees does it take to pick up the talking points?
"...told editors and reporters of The Washington Times yesterday in an interview in the Oval Office..."

"This is a country that is a value-based country... there's a lot of values in this country ... for which I'm real proud." :crazy:


"...there is no reason to fear his conspicuous practice of his Methodist faith."

fear? hmmm ...
wonder what he could tell us about the Methodist Church?

[cosmicdot]

57. those "editors and reporters" mentioned in another Moonie Times article

Bush vows push on immigration
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050111-110235-2065r.htm

"I believe the president has got to set big agenda items and solve big problems," the president told editors and reporters of The Washington Times in an interview in the Oval Office."


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1143034

what a field trip that was

[Lisa]

148. besides the fact that the Methodists opposed him?

They were against the death penalty and protested the Iraq war. If he went to church at all, he just sat in the pew and smirked, if the topics ever came in the sermon.

Hypocrite.

[Erika]

30. He's a condescending BS'r

He switched his alcohlic tendency to the crutch of religion.

It's not his place to talk religion about U.S. citizens. We pay the taxes, and he oversees the spending.

If religion had something to do with it, he should be asked why he ignored Christ's Golden Rule to bomb an innocent nation.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

65. I disagree with one point

Religion is not a crutch for him but a tool. It represents no more to him than a means to an end. Think of it as the cordless drill he uses to lobotomize the fundies.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

159. That's exactly correct

your analogy is excellent too!

[MADem]

37. He's RIGHT--You cannot be president without a relationship

...with the Lord. Every morning, Lord Darth Cheney Vader tells him what to say, what to do, what to wear, reminds him to put the little box on his back....:puke: :dunce:

[Erika]

42. Have you ever looked into Cheney's eyes?

The coldest eyes I've ever seen. Appropo for a Bush VP.

I have wondered about Mary. Cheney exposed her during Bush's first run and as Bush met with the Log Cabin Republicans. She had a great job as a PR person and a liason with the gay community while working for Peter Coors. She was silent this last election.

[MADem]

49. Actually, I have sat and talked to the man

I was with him for about five or six hours over the course of several days...this was back when he was SECDEF. I sat at conference tables with him, herded him around, and sat in vehicles with him shepherding him from spot A to spot B.

Here's the funny thing...he is actually quite charming, quite personable, enjoys a good joke, is very relaxed, and was reasonably easygoing in my interaction with him. His old lady, OTOH, was a ripping bitch, but that could have been because she was tired. He did a good approximation of being henpecked, I can tell ya that.

I think he's a real dick, but if you could turn back the clock to the days before he was at the top of the national consciousness, and have an ordinary, unimportant, everyday conversation with him, you wouldn't see or smell the evil.

And that, to my mind, is what makes him all the more dangerous!

[The White Tree]

122. Could it be that or does power corrupt?

Actually, right after the VP debate in 2000 I recall distinctly thinking after the whiny and petulant Presidential debate that the VP candidates seemed the more grownup and reasonable people and they should be the ones running. Cheney was quite personable then.

Fast Forward and now he is a tight-lipped corner of the mouth, fear mongerer.

It's like the Nazgul in the Lord of the Rings. They thought more power would enhance their ability to do good, but the power corrupted them and they became slaves to evil.

Not sure if there is one answer to that but I think it is important to remember when looking at anyone in power, regardless of party.

[LizW]

40. This is so familiar

If you know any fundamentalists, you know this is how they talk. "It's not me saying this. I'm not judging you. It's just Gods' Word. It's just the way it is.

They relegate you to second class status without taking any responsibility for the slur, because it's God saying it, not them.

[daleo]

51. That is a good explanation. n/t

[Montanan]

90. Christianity = I'm Not Responsible

You said it, Liz. The whole Fundie trip is about denying personal resonsibility.

In their world, no "good works" are required for salvation. In fact, those who believe in a dharma of doing good works are frequently seen as infidels.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

178. Indeed, existentialism (Sartre's) is all about replacing God with respons

It is all about replacing God with responsibility.
God becomes a crutch for accepting failure and not taking responsibility for worldly affairs.
Cast aside God and the burden of human life becomes all the more clear.

[mitchum]

41. Go to your hell, you fucking dirtbag

[electric-eye]

43. Fuck Off bush

hope the language doesn't offend anyone here

on edit: Who the hell does this anti-Christian think he is to "allow" for those unlike him. Fuck him. I don't need his fucknig approval or "tolerance."

Screw you bush.

[0007]

46. ....and I have total faith that when this country wakes up, junior

may well be treated worse than Mussolini. I have faith that when history present documentaries of junior and his era it will be the most embarrassing time for all in United States that didn't stop this little fascist dictator.

[Erika]

50. He should be

He voids Christ's Golden Rule and attacks a country that never harmed us using our kids to do so. He cuts social services for our own needy. He's a former alcoholic and his daughters have both had alcohol abuse charges against them. OK.

[LynnTheDem]

54. "I think that's just the way it is." bush says if you're not religious,

then you're NOT PATRIOTIC.

Whose religion, bush? Any religion, bush? Or just YOUR psuedo-religion, bush?

So HOW COME your own church and your own minister DISAGREE with you, bush?

You're a sick fucker, bush. Seek help immediately.

[muse]

55. Typical remarks for him. Unpresidential.

His remarks are always so off the cuff and not well thought out. No depth. It's hardly worth analyzing these remarks and commenting on them because they are so sophmoric. That's the problem. We have a man as our president who continually rattles on in a light weight manner every time he opens his mouth.

[CoffeeCat]

56. Oh great...Bush is doing some Jebus speak again...

Really now...the warmongering, conscious less sociopath is extolling the virtues of religion again?

The man is just silly.

Yes, George. We get it. You're religious. You pray every hour. You carry your leather-bound Bible with you at all times, and you read it in the limo between public appearances. Yes, George--we know you are very, very, very into Jebus.

I guess George figured that his "base" needed to be reminded--yet again--that he is the "gel" that holds those Evangelicals together. Amen, Sister!

Lesser minds will be fooled.

Those of us who know a charlatan when we see one--can just sit back and laugh as this goofball summons reporters to the West Wing for an afternoon of Bible quotin!

It's just so laughable.

[Hardrada]

59. The problem here is

that this charlatan is emperor.

I forget who wrote this but I think it is applicable to the situation:

"When he laughed, stout senators rolled in the aisles.
When he cried, little children dies in the streets."

and another poem has a refrain which concludes "Nineteen Hundred and Thirty Nine Nails upon the Cross."

Thanks to our own Caligula it is now "Two Thousand and Five Nails upon the Cross."

[CoffeeCat]

92. I wonder about Hitler...

I'll have to do a bit more reading on this, but I wonder if there was a signficant resistance to Hitler as he rose to power?

Most of what I've read about Hitler was during the peak of his power.

I wonder if there was a strong resistance that was slowly silenced into powerlessness?

Despressing to think about. However, I'm curious.

[LibDemAlways]

58. I respect anyone whose religious

beliefs are sincere. However, the chimp is such a transparent fraud and so blatently unChristian that I find his harping on "faith" and "prayer" repulsive.

I'm praying for him, all right. I'm praying that all of his evil actions come back to bite him in the ass.

[Divine Discontent]

63. I'm sorry

but I don't even TRY to read anything into what drivelboy says anymore. he is full of oxymorons, exaggerations, deceitfulness, & confusing rhetoric.

he truly isn't that intelligent, he just knows a decent amount of big words and throws them together, often stuttering or pausing, and frankly, makes Dan Quayle look like mensa material.


I pray he sees his horrible behavior and resigns or changes, I know there's nothing we can do to make him change, it's up to his own spirit, and from the hundreds of bad things he's done, esp. Iraq, all I can say is it'll take a MIRACLE!

[jaime_176]

176. What big words??

I've never heard him use any big words. His vocabulary is SO limited, but that's good for propaganda purposes.

[BadGimp]

64. well ok but..

..I don't see how you can be president without a relationship with Reality!

[BikeWriter]

66. Aarrgghh! That bastid makes me ill!

:hurts:

[mrsnarky]

67. Utterly astounding.

I think people attack me because they are fearful that I will then say that you're not equally as patriotic if you're not a religious person. <...> On the other hand <...>"

I fully understand that the job of the president is and must always be protecting the great right of people to worship or not worship as they see fit. <...> On the other hand <...>"

The great thing about our country is somebody can stand up and say, 'We should try to take "under God" out of the Pledge of Allegiance,'" Mr. Bush said. "On the other hand, the backlash was pretty darn significant.

Put more succinctly:

America is great because everyone is treated equally, regardless of their beliefs, but...
America is great because people have rights and are free, but...
America is great because people can challenge power, but...

[BikeWriter]

72. That crap pegged my Barfometer...

:(

[Az]

69. Come see the oppression inherant in the idiot

I particularly love this line: "I think people attack me because they are fearful that I will then say that you're not equally as patriotic if you're not a religious person," Mr. Bush said. "I've never said that. I've never acted like that. I think that's just the way it is."

But George doesn't that constitute saying it?

[Hardrada]

70. Words Fail Him Again

You can't apply logic to Bush pronouncements. I used to use it on my sister-in-law in relation to political issues to "raise her consciousness" (Remember when that was a useable phrase?). She would always reply, "Well... logic isn't logical." And go on merrily believing what she wanted to believe. Shrub seems to have the same attitude.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

73. GOD BLESS AMERICA and nobody else !!!!!!!!!!!

AAAAAAAAYYYYYY
Mennnnnnnnnnnn

[Tripmann]

74. Think it's more..

..'God bless everyone exactly like me....amen'

Tripmann

[neweurope]

77. There you have it. You are no true patriot if you are not christian.

I would be very interested in some statistics - as to how many Christians and "christians" live in your country, how many with Indian religions, how many atheists, Buddhists etc. etc. I have not been able to find any.

As I understand it - I might be wrong - freedom of religion was one of the most important things for the founding fathers. Yet now you HAVE to be "christian" - otherwise you are "unpatriotic". In other words: the enemy.

Getting scared already?

Remember Fallujah

Bush to the Hague!

[Massachusetts]

79. Praise Gee Sus

The king (Bu$h) has no clothes. See you in Hell Georgie boy!!!!:evilgrin: O8) :evilfrown:

[annabanana]

80. "I think that's just the way it is. "

I never said it.. I don't "act" that way...But religious people ARE more patriotic..

Sweet Mother of Pearl!

[maxrandb]

81. Here is what Jesus said about * in his own words!

From Matthew 23:-

Vs. 13 - (Jesus speaking to the Pharisees): "Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men."

Vs. 14 - "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows houses, and for pretense make long prayers."

Vs. 15 - "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass (go over) sea and land to make one proselyte (convert), and when he is made, ye make him TWO-FOLD MORE A CHILD OF HELL THAN YOURSELVES." (Emphasis added.)

Vs. 33 - "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?"

The worst of these "fundies" are the ones who are supposedly "reformed sinners". Like I've said before, "the worst kind of ex-smoker, is a former two-pack a day smoker".

It's the same with these nutcases.

[Montanan]

83. Fundies conveniently overlook Jesus' teachings...

...when they don't square with an agenda of domination and subjugation. Evangelical Christianity tends to attract disturbed people, and the majority of those people simply use the cloak of religiosity to validate their continued irrational behavior.

[AgadorSparticus]

184. well said. i have always thought that the evangelical christians

prey on people's fears, weaknesses and ignorance--very much like the gang mentality. people should not be checking their brains at the door in the name of ANY god. there should be considerable questioning and analyzing at all times. a credible system of thought will withstand scrutinization.

and any religion that doesn't condone personal discernment is not a religion. it is a cult.

[Gary173]

82. Where do all the child molesters hang out?

Facts, names, and dollar amounts on child molestation in the church. It appears bush is not the only criminal to use religion to their advantage.

http://www.priority2.org/church1.htm

[Supersedeas]

84. Have to wonder if/how our born-again pResident defines 'Lord'

If he defines 'Lord' the way most born-againers do, then wouldn't that eliminate Joe Lieberman as a man who 'can be President' in the opinion of our self-promoting religious leader in chief.

[Montanan]

85. The Fundie "Lord" is an imaginary abusive father. n/t

[Redstone]

86. Which Lord would that be?

I get the impression that Bush's "Lord" is the one who has a second part to his name: "of the Darkness."

It can't be the same guy most Christians think of when they hear / say the word "Lord."

I've read the Bible more than once, and I don't remember seeing the part where Jesus said, "Go forth and slaughter a hundred thousand people, just because you feel like doing it."

Redstone

[Montanan]

87. Doesn't matter what the Bible says...

...Christians can always claim to have had a "personal revelation" from God, instructing them to do whatever they want to do. And, since nobody can prove God DIDN'T tell them to do it, they get away with outrage after outrage.

[Redstone]

88. Yeah, Montanan, I forgot about that part

where they get their own personal revelations. Funny how these are usually the most ardent bible-thumpers as well.

Say, do you think these "conversations with God" still emanate from burning bushes like in the old days? Might be an explanation for all the global warming...

Redstone

[Stephanie]

123. Welcome to DU, Montanan!

Former Helenan here. :hi:

[Montanan]

158. Ex-Helenan Too

Stephanie, Drop me an email or message. They say I haven't been posting here long enough to do so myself, or I would have replied privately. Thanks for the welcome.

[robbedvoter]

94. He who must not be named.....

[Stephanie]

97. The PICTURE with the article is a keeper >

What is this? Thumbs up for God?

[Stephanie]

98. "...there's a lot of values in this country, for which I'm real proud."

"This is a country that is a value-based country," he said. "Whether they voted for you or not, there's a lot of values in this country, for which I'm real proud."

[robbedvoter]

99. Chimpy is obsessed with people praying for him (wants to be a God?)

he made similar remarks in the past - the most outrageous being one about the Russian, Chinese leaders may have more subjects than him, but he is prayed for by the highest number of people....
I Claudius anyone? Livia - you there?

[Hanging On]

102. This is the best argument against W's faith that I have seen.

I apologize for not giving attribution for this, and many of you may have already seen. I don't know who wrote it. I read only the scripture to several people and asked who this described and each clearly recognized the verses as describing George Bush. Here's the full text, including scripture.
********************************************

Biblical Proof that George Bush Should Not Be President

He is described perfectly in Proverbs 16-19

16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Nobody has a prouder look or a bigger swagger than George Bush. Picture him in his flight suit on the deck of the carrier beneath the sign "Mission Accomplished." Or remember him when he said of the terrorists: "Bring 'em on."

Nobody has a more lying tongue than George Bush when he said that Saddam Hussein, a petty dictator to whom we once sold weapons (with Donald Rumsfeld as the intermediary) had "weapons of mass destruction." The only weapons of mass destruction Saddam ever had were sold to him by the United States back in the 1980s, when we were supporting Hussein against the Ayatollah in Iran. Whatever was left of those weapons was destroyed in the first Gulf War 13 years ago. Three countries sell more weapons of all kinds to many countries around the world, including those in the Middle East: the United States is first among these, followed by Russia and France. Too often we send our own troops into harm's way against weapons we have sold for profit.

At the hands of George Bush, the man who gives the orders, innocent blood has been shed in the war in Iraq. In going after the "guilty," whom we have not fully defined except by the immediate definition of those who shoot at our troops, we often have what we have come to call "collateral damage," the innocent who die when our smart bombs miss their targets or who get caught in crossfire. God knows that collateral damage means innocent deaths.

George Bush and Dick Cheney have demonstrated time and again that they have hearts that are not troubled by devising wicked imaginations. Both the president and the vice-president have continually devised schemes to promote a war they wanted to fight. The terrorists who piloted the airplanes into the Trade Towers were from Egypt and Saudi Arabia, so we went to war with Iraq. The terrorist training camps in Afghanistan were bombed, which made sense in a war on terrorism, but then that war was largely abandoned for a war that George Bush wanted to fight because it made him look strong in the fight against terrorism. He picked on a weak nation that had no links to the events of 9-11. God, who sees through the deceptions of man, is not fooled by this false war of a self-proclaimed "war president." The Old Testament is filled with lessons of arrogance and vengeance. George Bush used America's power to crush a man that once plotted to kill his father. We have learned nothing from reading the Old Testament if we cannot see the current situation as one of pride and the wrongful use of power for personal gain and personal vengeance.

George Bush did well, as any president would have done, in the wake of the disaster of 9-11. He went to the site of the tragedy, he comforted the afflicted, he promised the evil-doers would be brought to justice. But along the way he lost his moral bearings and he began to use the events of 9-11 for personal political gain. He and his party consciously decided to make the tragedy of 9-11 into their reason for governing and the reason that Bush should be re-elected. He has uttered falsehoods about why we should be engaging in war in Iraq, he has issued campaign ads that blatantly exploit the tragedy of 9-11 by making him the hero for showing up and having his picture taken at Ground Zero three days after the tragedy. He has spent millions promoting the images of him at Ground Zero. There is only plotting and no humility in this act.

George Bush and his lieutenants have sewn much discord in the nation solely for the sake of preserving his own power. To get elected in 2000, Bush had to spread lies and falsehoods about fellow Republican John McCain, a true American war hero who was challenging Bush for the nomination. To get re-elected in 2004, the same George Bush has to spread lies and falsehoods about the Democratic challenger, another war hero, who served with honor. In the process Bush has sewn discord among the brethren and divided veteran against veteran and citizen against citizen, all for the purpose of holding onto power. George Bush hopes to divide us and conquer us, and the lies he utters or allows others to utter in his behalf are truly of Biblical proportions.

[AngryOldDem]

106. "I think that is just the way it is" ????

So the thesis is true, then? You can't be patriotic without being religious?

[mcscajun]

121. Yep...it's true according to Pretzel Boy...

...but NOT because he said...because he didn't...but because that's just the way it is...which he DID Say...so he really did say it...but it's not that way because he did...or didn't, but because it is...not my doing...

Got your brain in a knot yet?

[ProfessorGAC]

110. He Didn't Say It . . .

. . .but that's just the way it is. So, we CAN'T be as patriotic as the faithful, even though he didn't say that. Wait, he just did say it. So,
1) he said it, and we can't be as patriotic, or;
2) he didn't say it and we can't be as patriotic, or;
3) he said it, and we CAN be as patriotic, which means he's wrong or;
4) he didn't say it, and we CAN be as patriotic, which means it's completely meaningless to discuss it.

What?
The Professor

[TalkingDog]

114. Ya' notice how he didn't finish?....The Lord of Darkness...that is. n/t

[LibertyLover]

115. "I think that's just the way it is."

It is a given that everything * says is:

1. wrong;
2. frighteningly stupid;
3. b^llsh#t; or
4. all of the above.

But this article really scares me. He comes right out and says that he thinks if you are not religious, and to him that means Dominionist Christian fundy, you are not patriotic. This leads right down the old slippery slope to '. . . and so you are not a "real" American and have no rights to the privleges and protections afforded to "real" Americans.'

Please sir, can I have my Bill of Rights back?

[Magleetis]

116. Bush the idiot

has turned America into a country of lies and bullshit. My anger and hatred is beyond words.

[The White Tree]

118. And that's why this President has no character

Character was a theme of William Safire's editorial in the NYTimes today and how the republican party obtained power because they had it. It was a load and I sent them a reply but I'm stuck on that theme.

So why do I say this shows the Presidents lack of character?

He says: "I think people attack me because they are fearful that I will then say that you're not equally as patriotic if you're not a religious person," Mr. Bush said. "I've never said that. I've never acted like that. I think that's just the way it is."

Maybe he never said or acted the way he feels, but many of his supporters have. A president who had character would realize that his silence on the matter offers an implicit okay for other people to act in a way that he says he will not. If you let other people defend you using tactics that you feel are wrong, well, to me that seems to be the definition of a lack of character.

And sadly, that is the hallmark and will forever be the legacy of this President.

George Bush, 43rd president of the United States, A man who let others do his duty work.

[The White Tree]

119. Dear Mr. President

As a person of deep faith, I would like to tell you that I have prayed for you. I have prayed for you to come to your senses and act like the Christian you say you are.

As a matter of fact each week in church our congregation prays that you and all world leaders will lead with the compassion and caring that was taught to us by Jesus.

We'll keep praying.

Hope one day you listen.

[Magmadona]

124. God I love this forum.

You have no idea how many zealot villagers, I've debated on this very same issue, its as if they're trapped in a some temporal vortex without right or reason.

Oh and worry not Bush is drafted.

Yes this merry little fellow is in fact the number one draft pick to hell on full scholarship.

[arikara]

125. Nice, polite, short and to the point

Did you send it to him?

[The White Tree]

132. No. I will though or something similar just wrote it in this post.

Not that it will matter.

Actually, I posted this somewhere yesterday but I'll repeat since you asked.

Shortly before the start of the war I sent an e-mail to the White House telling the president that I was praying for him to do the right thing and that I thought that starting this war would make the world a more dangerous place.

Coincidentally, in a speech a few days later the president actually said something similar to what he said in this post above. It was along the lines of, "I am grateful to all the people who have said they are praying for me". At the time I remember thinking, if only for a moment, I wonder if he got that from me or from a lot of other people. He then went on to say something about how it was his decision to make and he was going to do what he thought was right. I knew then that I didn't get through to him (heck neither did the Pope for that matter) one way or the other.

Still, had to try.

[manly]

165. Pray away

Praying is so silly. I picture a church full of well-intentioned people, praying fervently to nothing. When will you folks realize you're talking to nobody and nothing? I feel sorry for you.
How successful have your prayers been, so far?
If you have the urge to harangue me, or worse, remember your religion.

[deacon2]

128. Disingenuous at best...

His "walk" with the Lord is over the lifeless bodies of thousand of innocent humans in Iraq. By their fruits shall ye know them.

[SodoffBush]

131. What's bigger? Bush's underwear size or his IQ?

If his doll were anatomically correct, he'd be a pinhead in a fightsuit.

[CO Liberal]

146. Do You Know What Bush Got On His IQ Test? Drool!!!!

:-)

[Jacobin]

137. Gee, Thomas Jefferson and George Washington

seemed to do just fine without a "relationship with the lord"

[CO Liberal]

138. Don't Tell The Christians That

As demonstrated earlier in this thread, too many people have fallen for that old line about the Founding Fathers all being Christians.

[Jacobin]

144. NONE of the founding fathers were Christians

I know you know that, but it is amazing the rampant gullibility of DUers on this subject.

My favorite line from Old Tom Jefferson:

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a Virgin Mary, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.... But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away all this artificial scaffolding. (Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, 11 April 1823, as quoted by E. S. Gaustad, "Religion," in Merrill D. Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: A Reference Biography, New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1986, p. 287.)

[AuntiBush]

142. I don't need "HIM" praying for me...

What happened to 2 separate doctrines set by our founding fathers, "Church and State" never to be as one! Shew, prayers from him I can do without. No thank you. He's already broken how many commandments and all 7 of the deadliest of sins. Talk about a HYPOCRIT!

[Eurobabe]

147. Bu$h "USES" religion as his expedient marketing plan

[jokerman93]

150. subtext?

The ones who are afraid, should be. I've noticed more implied threats from Bushco lately.

[The Backlash Cometh]

153. I've never said that,I've never acted like that, that's just the way it is

What an arrogant prick that man is.

Well, he is right about one thing. I have faith that the American people will wake up and see him for the phony he is.

[Megahurtz]

154. What a mindfuck...

:crazy:

[takumi]

162. This Individual (Shrub) Truly Needs Help

It's obvious that his religion has done nothing to change his works (e.g., put dozens to death in Texas and many, many more in Iraq)!
What a putz!

[spooked]

164. Does anybody else think the word "Lord" is kind of creepy?

I might get flamed here, but it sounds creepy the way it is used in Bush's quote.

I am Catholic, and I have begun to notice that using the word "Lord" for God is more predominantly a fundamentalist Christian thing, whereas Catholics use the word "Lord" word mostly in prayer.

Maybe it's just my ears but it doesn't sound genuine, or maybe it sounds like they are trying to distinguish THEIR Lord from our God.
They seem to be making a clear distinction with that word.

Anyone else feel this way?

[Johnny_Ramone]

166. I Remember When I First Found Jesus

...he was hiding in my closet-been trying to get rid of the sonofabitch ever since...

[ignatius 2]

167. Religion,the opium of the masses. Hitler also used his faith in the

almighty to help control the multitudes.

Somehow I think God would definitely strike down a man who sends thousands upon thousands to their deaths in a war based on lies and bullshit.

There will be a very special place of misery in the afterlife for this miserable piece of inhuman scum.

[ashmanonar]

193. what, bush will be reincarnated as

a piece of pondscum?

:evilgrin:

[hollowdweller]

168. I have never seen an interview where Bush actually states his beliefs

Why do no reporters ever ask him any quesitons about what he believes as far as religion? So far as I can see he cozys up to fundamentalists, but I have always heard him at Methodist and Episcopal churches, and they are almost left wing a lot of 'em.

I'd like to know if he thinks Islamic people are going to hell. I'd like to know if he thinks you are damned if you arent baptized, and whether he thinks the full immersion people are gonna get to heaven and if the sprinkled people are in trouble. I'd like to see him answer the question if he thinks a women who has an abortion, but doesn't pray for forgiveness if she is going to hell. Does he believe in hell? Does he believe you have to be "saved" to go to heaven? What about the Jews? Does he think they will go to hell?

I've seen interviews where Clinton discussed his own faith very candidly and in great detail, referencing the Bible and really giving you an idea of what he believed. Bush on the other hand always just kind of quotes a few Bible verses and is kinda vague.

As much of an issue as faith has been I am surprised no reporter has ever questioned him. Maybe none have any knowlege themselves and therefore can't ask questions?

[Coloradan4Truth]

173. Evangelical Voters - NBC Nightly News

They mentioned Shrub's quote on NBC tonight and did a story on Evangelical Voters. I wrote Brian Williams this email right after it was over, as the report seemed very biased (but of course....)and I have been having withdrawals from protest emailing since 1/6 is over.

C4T

--------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Mr. Williams,

I would like to request that you show the other side - the other voters - as a companion piece to your "Evangelical Voters" report.

Liberals, are another group of voters that deserve your airtime. Liberals often get treated as if "liberal" is a dirty word, and can relate to feeling misunderstood, as the evangelicals in your report stated they sometimes feel.

Liberals, also vote values: equality in education, support and care of the poor, acceptance of all, acceptance of diverse lifestyles, against torture and the death penalty, and for and the rights of all. And of course, there is the old fashioned, biblical value of TRUTH that liberals espouse. I was surprised that the gentleman on your story couldn't understand what the protest sign "Bible Toting Liar" meant. It means that it is Not Okay to lie (http://www.bushlies.net/pages/10/) in the name of the lord. It would be fair and balanced (which is what the white house says it wants) of you to allow a liberal viewpoint to explain to those Americans, who like the individual in your report, don't understand our slogans or our values.

thank you,
xxxxxxxxxx
Denver, CO

[yorkiemommie1]

175. Bush = Whited sepulcre

all hail the supreme hypocrite!

[truthpusher]

182. whited sepulcre?

[fooj]

183. Hey, the bible warns against people like Bush...

Where are all the religious zealots when you need them?

[truthpusher]

185. Looks like they don't read the Bible anymore...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x98608

[fooj]

186. So...ignorance is bliss?

How sad is that?

[jsw_81]

187. I don't see how a grown man can have an imaginary friend

Want to know what Santa Claus and God have in common? Ask an atheist.

This organized insanity called "faith" is what's keeping our country in the dark ages. Let's hope that reason and science ultimately triumph over myth and superstition. The alternative is too terrible to even think about.

[Riding this Donkey]

188. Could someone explain to the shrub

the difference between organized religion and faith? Both have their place but you CAN have one without the other.

[truthpusher]

191. Faith without wisdom is pointless..

[grace0418]

192. Well, being the anti-Christ is a relationship I guess,

just not a good relationship.

[rodeodance]

194. bush will push his faith-based programs aggressively this term-

regardless of the Armstrong Williams issue.

.....Liberals have challenged his faith-based initiative, which allows religious organizations to apply for government funds to administer social services such as drug rehabilitation and food banks.
The president said there is no reason to fear his conspicuous practice of his Methodist faith or his approval of religious expression in the public square.
Mr. Bush said he leans heavily on his religion every day that he is in the Oval Office and cannot imagine any man handling the pressures of the job without leaning on God.
"I fully understand that the job of the president is and must always be protecting the great right of people to worship or not worship as they see fit," Mr. Bush said. "That's what distinguishes us from the Taliban. The greatest freedom we have or one of the greatest freedoms is the right to worship the way you see fit. .....

[Thor_MN]

195. I think that's just the way it is.

"I think people attack me because they are fearful that I will then say that you're not equally as patriotic if you're not a religious person," Mr. Bush said. "I've never said that. I've never acted like that. I think that's just the way it is. "

So what exactly is your point, dumbass? You admit that you think nonreligious people are not equally patriotic in the last sentence, so why exactly are you deriding them for attacking you?

[nashville_brook]

197. oh... my... god...

please tell me he didn't say that!

[truthpusher]

198. um...he didn't say that?