Colombia rebel arrest row worsens (Colombia vs Venezuela)

[IndianaGreen]

Looks like Plan Colombia is being used to kidnap people in other countries. The US is stirring up the pot, this time by using our agent, President (and former death squad leader) Uribe of Colombia.

Last Updated: Thursday, 13 January, 2005, 23:09 GMT

Colombia rebel arrest row worsens

Venezuela has recalled its ambassador to Colombia, in an escalating dispute over the capture of a Colombian rebel.

Venezuela said the capture of Rodrigo Granda in Caracas was a violation of sovereignty, and accused Bogota of bribing Venezuelan agents to catch him.

On Wednesday a Colombian minister admitted his government paid bounty hunters to help seize Mr Granda.

Colombia has denied that any of its agents entered Venezuelan territory during the operation.

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez says his government's investigations show Mr Granda was illegally kidnapped and then taken across the border.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4173113.stm

[bemildred]

1. Yep. Compare this with the bullshit from Lugar:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1147973&mesg_id=1147973

Is this cognitive disconnect or what:


On Wednesday a Colombian minister admitted his government paid bounty hunters to help seize Mr Granda.

Colombia has denied that any of its agents entered Venezuelan territory during the operation.



Some morons are desperate to get something going. I'm a bit surprised
that Uribe would let himself get sucked into this though.

[pescao]

2. what (exactly) is illegal about all this?

(edited to add exactly in title) is it that the 'bounty hunters' were venezuelan police officers (ie a bribe) or is it just flat out illegal no matter who they were? they dont seem to be showing much remorse.

this is bbc 'breaking news':

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4176347.stm

Venezuela cuts ties with Colombia

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has suspended diplomatic and trade links with neighbouring Colombia over a "violation of national sovereignty".

He said business dealings with Bogota will be frozen until it has apologised for the kidnap of a Marxist guerrilla chief from Venezuelan soil last month.

Colombia admits paying bounty hunters to help seize the rebel but denies its agents violated Venezuelan sovereignty.

Oil-producing Venezuela is Colombia's second-largest export market.

[bemildred]

9. Kidnapping is illegal. nt

[mitchtv]

21. arrest warrant? exit visa? Bribery?

nothing illegal

[pescao]

3. breaking news: Venezuela's Chavez Halts Trade With Colombia

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000086&sid=aUDTdxTLKiY8&refer=latin_america

Venezuela's Chavez Halts Trade With Colombia

Jan. 14 (Bloomberg) -- Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said he suspended all agreements and trade with Colombia until President Alvaro Uribe apologizes for paying for the capture in Caracas of a guerrilla leader last month.

``I've ordered the paralyzing of all agreements and trade with Colombia,'' Chavez said in a speech to the National Assembly in Caracas on the state-owned television station. ``Our ambassador will not return until Colombia's government apologizes for what's happened.''

Hector Mojica, spokesman for Colombia's Foreign Affairs Ministry, declined to comment in a telephone interview. Colombia Defense Minister Jorge Uribe told RCN television station earlier this week that Colombia paid for the capture of Rodrigo Granda, a leader of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, and his delivery to Colombian police in Cucuta, a city near the border with Venezuela. The minister did not say where Granda was brought from or who Colombia paid.

Chavez said Granda was captured in Caracas by Venezuela soldiers paid by Colombia. Venezuela recalled its ambassador in Colombia yesterday.

``Chavez's action doesn't make any sense,'' said Robert Bottome, an analyst with Caracas-based research company Veneconomy. ``He's painting himself into a corner.''

...

[IndianaGreen]

5. Smells like the US is back at its old dirty tricks again

How would you like it if France had its agents come to the US to kidnap a political dissident?

The real terrorists in Colombia is not FARC, but the Uribe regime.

[Judi Lynn]

7. I thought the custom has always been to work with the government

of the country where the alleged criminal is hiding.

Remember that murderer, Ira Einhorn who killed his girlfriend in New York, hid her in a chest, then raced off and hid in France? The U.S., once it knew where he was living, HAD to go through channels, and do bidness with the French gummint.

He was virtually thumbing his nose at our government from France, and taking much comfort in the fact that they were refusing to allow the U.S. to extradite him, yet rules had to be observed.

I'm sure the _Bush regime has something to do with this, as well.

[pescao]

8. hugo made a good point last night..

that pedro carmona (coup-leader) is currently in colombia having skipped out on house arrest, first to their embassy, then given safe passage out of the country, yet venezuela isn't thinking of bribing colombian commandos to kidnap him! http://www.aporrea.org/dameverbo.php?docid=54878 (spanish)

predictible comments from the white house: http://www.allamericanpatr iots.com/m-news+article+storyid-4507-PHPSESSID-21b8f54da9ef6d4a31795d1bf47f75ed.html

U.S. State Department Briefing - January 14, 2005

QUESTION: The Washington Times had a story today about a tougher line toward Venezuela. Do you have any guidance on that?

MR. BOUCHER: I would repeat a couple of things on Venezuela that I think are important for all of us to remember: first, that we've long enjoyed a mutually beneficial energy relationship with Venezuela, and that remains important to us, and the sanctity of contracts remains important to us. We want to see that relationship continue. So I know there have been some reports the Venezuelans might seek to do something else, but as for our part, we want to see the contracts respected. We want to see the relationship continue.

I would also point out that we have long made clear our profound concerns about the undemocratic and detrimental policies of President Chavez and his government. We will continue to speak out firmly on issues where Venezuela takes steps that are of concern to us, particularly in the areas of freedom of the press and political -- openness of the political process. We always speak out in favor of democracy in this hemisphere and will continue to do so in Venezuela and elsewhere.

QUESTION: All right. Apparently, they're doing land grabs, reminiscent of what happened in Zimbabwe, and there is also a suggestion and a story about Venezuelan meddling in the internal affairs of other countries in the region. Anything on that?

MR. BOUCHER: I don't have anything specific on that. We've spoken about it in the past, though, and obviously we're against meddling in the affairs of other countries in the region or consorting with terrorists or some of the other things that have been charged. But I don't have any new statements to make on that.

suspicious story ago about possible CIA involvement: http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/01/13/venezuela.granda.ap/

Leftists accuse CIA in rebel nab
Friday, January 14, 2005 Posted: 0143 GMT (0943 HKT)

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) -- The Venezuelan leftist group Tupamaro Revolutionary Movement on Thursday accused the CIA of having a hand in the abduction of a Colombian rebel in Caracas.

...

"We believe it is part of the policy the Department of State and CIA have developed, in concert with puppet governments in Latin America," said Jose Pinto, 53, secretary-general of Tupamaro, which supports President Hugo Chavez.

Pinto said his group sympathizes with Granda's cause against "the fascist Colombian government" and said his "kidnapping" December 13 in Caracas is part of the U.S.-funded military offensive in Colombia called Plan Patriot.

...

Legal adviser Franklin Saavedra read a statement protesting a search of the group's office by authorities Monday in the western city of Maracaibo.

Pinto called it an "illegal raid" in which authorities claimed to be searching for guns and explosives. He charged it was part of "a plan" to defame the group and urged Venezuela's government to dismiss officials involved.

...

[Judi Lynn]

12. Somehow I'd missed knowing Pedro Carmona's hiding in Colombia!

Doesn't that make everything cozy!

Thanks for all the information in this post. I'm going to come back to take notes for future reference. Very, very helpful.

[bemildred]

10. This is interesting.

Hugo must think he holds a strong hand.
We'll see who cracks first.

[pescao]

11. reuters story is being carried all over google

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=7336007

Colombia Offers Talks to End Venezuela Kidnap Row
Sat Jan 15, 2005 02:46 PM ET

By Luis Jaime Acosta

BOGOTA, Colombia (Reuters) - Colombian President Alvaro Uribe offered on Saturday to meet his Venezuelan counterpart, Hugo Chavez, to defuse a widening diplomatic dispute over the covert capture of a top Colombian rebel in Venezuela.

...

Chavez denies U.S. and Colombian charges he shelters the FARC (Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia). He says Colombia committed a crime by bribing members of an elite Venezuelan National Guard anti-kidnap squad to snatch Granda from the heart of Caracas.

...

"Let's hope the Colombian president reconsiders and doesn't end up supporting a crime ... behaving very much like the United States government," Chavez said late Friday.

...

It reminded Chavez the United Nations forbade members to shelter terrorists and noted the FARC "foreign minister" had openly taken part in a pro-Chavez meeting of leftist groups in Caracas in December. Venezuela says Granda was not invited.

...

[Judi Lynn]

13. The timing of this event is interesting.

We've been reading for a few weeks about Venezuelan and Colombian plans to work together on a pipeline to get oil to the sea to sell to China.

Sounds as if someone OUTSIDE Colombia would like to throw some kind of obstacle in the way, doesn't it?

[bemildred]

14. Good point. Everything was getting much too cooperative. nt

[pescao]

15. i hope hugo's not walking into a trap

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1105845481846

Jan. 16, 2005 6:10
U.S. backs Colombia in dispute with Venezuela
By ASSOCIATED PRESS

BOGOTA, Colombia

The United States has expressed support for Colombia, its strongest ally in Latin America, as it feuds with Venezuela over Colombia's hiring of bounty hunters to capture a Marxist guerrilla in the Venezuelan capital.

"We support 100 percent the declarations from (Colombia's) presidential palace," U.S. Ambassador William Wood told reporters Saturday, referring to a statement from President Alvaro Uribe in which he defended the action.

Venezuelan leader Hugo Chavez on Friday froze diplomatic and commercial relations with Colombia until Uribe apologizes for allegedly paying rogue elements in the Venezuelan police force, acting as bounty hunters, to snatch Rodrigo Granda, a leader of the rebel Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC.

...

Uribe has refused to apologize and defended Colombia's actions, saying the use of bounty hunters is a legitimate tool and that Colombia was only trying to end its "nightmare of terrorism."

[Judi Lynn]

16. I see what you mean.

More from that article:

Colombia's leading newspaper El Tiempo on Saturday called the impasse the biggest crisis between the two countries since 1987, when Colombian warships entered Venezuelan waters that Colombia claimed as its own.

In recent years, the two countries have sparred over claims that Chavez, a leftist, allows the FARC and other leftist guerrillas to use Venezuela as a safe haven.

The FARC has battled with the Colombian government for 40 years and is labeled a terrorist organization by the United States and the European Union. Uribe has taken a tougher stance toward the FARC than previous Colombian leaders.
(snip/)

The article fails to mention that Álvardo Uribe has been associated with the Colombian paramilitaries for ages, and his own father, as well. People who live in Colombia are well aware of this. He's no stranger to terrorism. The paramilitaries are the ones who have laid waste to entire villages, even killing the citizens with chain saws. I've both read about this multiple times, and heard about it from a man who used to live there.

Funny how, when calling people "communists" in the U.S. fell out of favor after Joe McCarthy's destructive orgy of hatred in the 1950's, the same people still had the same hatred and harbored the need to call names and point out people they believed they could harm by calling them enemies of the state, and started naming ones different from themselves "Marxists." Almosts lends an air of sophistication to those who were only a few years before howling "Commie" and Commie pinko!"

There is NOTHING more vicious in Colombia than the savage paramilitary gangs. They stand in a position of priviledge. Álvardo Uribe has even asked for amnesty for them, after the grotesque carnage they've created.

Hugo Chavez would definitely be well advised to watch his steps with Uribe and his currently silent advisors. I believe they, the ones calling the shots, are the same ones who prepared the coup, and the strike, etc. in Venezuela, as well as the sudden appearance and arrest of over 100 armed Colombian paramilitaries near Caracas at the ranch of Roberto Alonso, Cuban "exile," who lives next door to one of Bush friend, and media mogul Cisneros's homes.

Talk about people being caught on the wrong side of the border! What were Uribe's precious murderers doing near Caracas, armed, in a large group, hiding on a Cuban "exile's" ranch? He could have raised hell about that, but you can be sure we wouldn't be hearing any snide little quips from the dipsticks in the State Department condemning the paramilitaries.

[bemildred]

17. Well, I rather think he is, walking into a trap, I mean.

The question is why? He's not a dumb man, he must know that on some
level this is not an accident. So why is he walking into the "trap"?
How does he expect to handle it? It should be a fascinating show to
watch.

OTOH, the agenda of the US and it's stooges could be as simple as
raising the tension level, preventing peace from breaking out. How
can you justify "Plan Colombia" and all that shit if everybody in the
area is getting along?

[Judi Lynn]

18. There has always been deep silence around Plan Colombia, although

American taxpayers have been paying an ungodly price to support it. All kinds of people are involved in it, yet we're totally in the dark about what it is, its purpose, and when we may expect it to be completed.

The struggle between the very small, exclusive, powerful European descended, American military/business-colluding ruling class in Latin America, against EVERYONE ELSE seems unlikely to be resolved soon. Who benefits? American businesses, war profiteers who somehow find ways to get deeply involved, out of sight, beyond our awareness, unchecked, not available to real oversight.

If there wasn't an open conflict, we wouldn't have justification in setting up bases, sending tons of military equipment, and advisers, etc., to those countries.

It's good to know Álvaro Uribe is somewhat unlike the majority of other contemporary Latin American presidents, who seem to be leaning left. That's tremendous. Maybe it will serve to inhibit him in some heavy-duty nastiness later on, as their alliance progresses.

[bemildred]

19. That is sort of in the neighborhood of what I was wondering about.

Uribe's support is in the cities, almost restricted to Bogota.
He's not politically in a position to pursue war with Chavez
without outside support, and Uncle Sugar is also badly placed to
provide the support that Alvaro would need, being busy in Iraq
and deep in debt already. Chavez OTOH is in a politically and
economically strong and rising situation, there is every reason
to think he could sustain a war far longer than Uribe unless the
US intervened massively, and Chavez would have many hidden cards
to play. If Alvaro commits forces to combat in Venezuela, what is
to stop FARC from attacking back home, for example? And Chavez
has friends in China, Iran, Russia. I think he's calling their
bluff here.

[Judi Lynn]

20. Hope you're right.It'd be tremendous to see Uribe lose some steam here.n/t

[mitchtv]

22. Friends in Brazil, Argentina and Chile, too

most importantly Brazil

[bemildred]

24. Yes, good point. nt

[pescao]

4. btw, colombia needs venezuela's trade..

a LOT more than venezuela needs colombia's. this thread really should have a new headline...

[oneighty]

6. Chavez

has ties now with China. How will that fit in with Bush plans for South America? Checkmate?

180

[pescao]

23. question for you all

how can i find out if the FARC are on the UN list of terror organisations? (i know they're on colombia's and the US lists, but i heard the UN called them a liberation struggle group or somthing like that.) tia, pescao xxx

[bemildred]

25. After some searching around, I don't think the UN keeps a list.

The only "official" UN terrorist designations were Afghan related,
that is Taliban etc., and not exactly in the form of a list. Also
I found a CFR FAQ that says FARC is not a terrorist organization, and
UN had served as a mediator between FARC and the Colombian Gov't.

But, I'm no expert.