U.S. troops may move bases in Europe

[Judi Lynn]

Friday, January 14, 2005 · Last updated 4:44 a.m. PT

U.S. troops may move bases in Europe

By PAUL AMES
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER

CASTEAU, Belgium -- U.S. troops could start moving from Cold War-era posts in Germany to new bases in Romania and Bulgaria this year as part of American efforts to create a more mobile overseas force, the top U.S. commander in Europe said Friday.

Marine Gen. James L. Jones said the United States was looking at up to five facilities in each country for use by Army, Air Force, Navy or Marine units.

"This is part and parcel of the transformation of our footprint in Europe, which has been in need of surgery for some time," he told reporters at NATO military headquarters in southern Belgium after a trip to Romania and Bulgaria.

Plans for the bases are expected to be drawn up soon, and Jones said the move could start quickly if Congress and the two countries go along.
(snip/...)

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apeurope_story.asp?category=1103&slug=NATO%20US%20Bases

[Inland]

1. Well, the real estate taxes ARE lower

Nobody complains about pollution or noise.

[lebkuchen]

24. You need to read Korb's editorial

I already posted it.

[SouthernDem2004]

2. Been on the back burner for a while...

The military has wanted to move the bases for years to friendlier countries. It if often a problem getting permission to fly missions over some Western European countries. The Eastern Block countries want our bases for economic reasons and will be more premissive. It is a good deal for the U.S. and the Eastern Block nations. Germany is unhappy with the potential loss of revenue from the bases and its troops.

[lebkuchen]

3. to "friendlier countries?"

What do you mean?

[SouthernDem2004]

33. Air space issues for one...

Some western European countries do not like the US flying missions that cross through their busy air space. Not so much of a problem in the old East Block. The Eastern block nations are also willing to provide us with cheap land and build to our needs in the surrounding areas.

[neweurope]

44. You had cheap land and air space in Germany. Not that I'm sorry to see

you go ;)

But it's true that some German towns will loose a lot of money.


-----------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague

[SouthernDem2004]

55. Don't wave goodbye just yet...

Germany has been against the move. The U.S. may just be posturing to get something it wants from Germany. Even if it were to take place the move would take years.

[neweurope]

60. I know. But as long there's life there's hope :)

-------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague

[radric]

4. I've heard the Germans ..

are very unhappy that these US bases are being moved. It's a big economic hit on the comunities they leave. Not good for a country with a rampant unemployment problem and no growth.

[sweetheart]

10. Heard from where?

i've heard the direct opposite. German people I know are happy to be
rid of the rapist-bases and the trashy riff-raff that they bring around.

Germany underestimated what it would take to re-integrate the east,
and that is your "unemployment problem" where the american bases don't
help one fig, as they're not in the ost.

As well, the new laws transforming the unemployment system will help
discourage the stagnation that paying people good wages to remain
unemployed (and not job hunting) did.

Hmmm.. low post count... repeating republican memes without support...
hmmm.... cough cough.. i won't say it, but geesh, welcome to DU for
as long as you last.

[apple_ridge]

14. Good catch. A definite troll.

[Bono71]

16. It depends on which Germans you're talking to...

the ones who are directly affected (economically) by the closings, don't want it to happen.

[lebkuchen]

29. The Okinawans, now that's another matter

The Okinawan governor goes to the US to demand that the marines, air force and army leave now. 20,000 military members on an island that is 65 miles long and 15 miles wide, now there's a social/environmental problem. Water must be rationed on the island nearly once a year, the landfill is....full, the marines in the northern section are making huge nuisances of themselves. Why doesn't the US military leave Okinawa? Most Okinawans would love it.

[Bono71]

30. If they don't want us, I think we should...this has nothing to

do with my original point, which was, many Germans (who reap economic benefits) want us...and many Germans don't....

[lebkuchen]

32. Do you live in Germany?

?

[Bono71]

36. Just got back, but don't live there. why? n/t

[lebkuchen]

42. I've lived here for the last five years

my friend has been here for 15, and neither of us has ever experienced a German desire for Americans to be gone. So I'm wondering where you get your impression.

I'm not saying pockets of that sentiment don't exist, but it's not as though Germans are protesting outside the base gates demanding the US leave their country, as happens on Okinawa on a regular basis. Germans have protested outside the gates against the US invasion of Iraq, but not to get out of Germany.

The battalions spend much of their energy helping the soldiers fit into their environment and keep the peace with locals.

[Bono71]

43. Ah gotcha...let me just say this...

my impression while I was there was nothing but positive...

Great country
Great people, very friendly...they knew I was American...
I personally heard no one state they wanted the bases closed...I did hear people lament the closings...

I can't wait to go back...my wife and I had a blast...very friendly place (was in Munich and other parts of Bovaria).

[lebkuchen]

50. Your impression is why the Army loves it here

as do army families. The AF out in Asia would love to have a tour or two of Germany. European tours are one of the last perks army recruiters have to offer potential enlistees anymore. Bush is now going to take that away, right when his (re)enlistment numbers are dropping.

Make sure you make it to northern Bavaria next time. Wine fests abound in summer and fall! :)

[SouthernDem2004]

35. I agree...

The citizens that stand to lose do not want the bases to close. The Gernams that want the bases to close seem to want us to go for nationalistic pride which I fully understand. We have been occuping their country for a long time now. It is really hard to say if our leaving would be good or bad.

[lebkuchen]

26. Bases in Germany are in fairly low-profile areas

Ramstein/Landstuhl sits in a forest. The closest town to it is Kaiserslautern. It is an "America-ville", but the Germans benefit from the Living Quarters Allowances, not to mention what the restaurants take in.

Vilsek/Grafenwoehr are on the Czech border, again, lots of forest, not much around. This is where the US has built its training area.

Germany is currently guarding US bases here. One can see German soldiers walking all about the base with machine guns. Since the educational system is so good in Germany, my guess is that the Germans would do a lot better job protecting US assets than the dirt poor uneducated Bulgaria or Romania.

[Solly Mack]

40. "K-town" is slated to be closed

It's on the "tentative" list. Naturally that list could change.

We have both German soldiers and a German security force guarding the post here in Mannheim. Mannheim isn't scheduled to be closed, but that, too , could change. It will be redrawn, however.

I live in housing that falls under German contractors. Making it better housing I might add. We deal solely with Germans for housing repairs, moving items, and appliance repairs.

Germans work in almost every aspect of the infrastructure on this post. From the post welcome center (ACS) to the PMO (provost marshals office)

Our phone, cable, and computer bills are all paid to German companies.

I've heard both Yays! and Nays! from Germans on the potential base closings. Some want the posts gone and MOST do not. It's mainly among young people you hear "get out." :)

The biggest complaint right now from Germans who work on post is that they are paid in dollars. (Can't blame them for that!)

There are small businesses located on post owned and operated by Germans. Clothing shops, food shops, knickknack shops,dry cleaners, barbers, etc.

I know you know this, lebkuchen...just weighing in :)

[lebkuchen]

47. Hi Solly Mack

Stuttgart was scheduled to close but now I hear it is going to stay open and expand. I don't know why, considering that US bases in the bigger German cities were typically the ones to phase out first, in order to keep the US footprint from disturbing the local population. I used to be "stationed" in Karlsruhe.

Stuttgart is a very congested area, similar to Okinawa, with less space and lots of Americans to put up with, especially on the roads. I could imagine there being German frustration with bases there, as with the Mannheim/Heidelberg area, for the same reason. I'm in northern Bavaria, among the vineyards. Maybe it's the wine that keeps the Germans so relaxed about us out here? :)

Since K-Town supports Ramstein, and since the AB is going to stay, bringing in wounded from Iraq to Landstuhl, it doesn't make sense for K-Town to close. In fact, I've heard it is likely to stay open. The same with Spangdahlem. The US continues to improve that infrastructure. I saw photos of the expansion in the Ramstein AB terminal.

1AD/1ID are who would be leaving for Bulgaria and Romania. Both those divisions are in relatively ideal areas right now. They don't trample much on the quality of life of the locals, the military families love the areas and so reenlistments are high, Frankfurt is right up the road, great autobahn, great air fields. It makes no sense to upend that, especially not when we're verging on a $200 billion expenditure in Iraq alone.

What did you think of Korb's piece (posted above)?

[Solly Mack]

52. Closing K-town didn't make sense to me either but it was on the list

from Oct. 2004. BSB here had a meeting for potential closings and what posts were slated to be "redrawn." My hubby works for BSB.

A German lady here told they have had K-Town on the list for years and it never happens. She also doesn't trust the Bush administration to make an intelligent decision either. I think Bush is the factor for the alarm more than anything. You never know what he will do in a fit. Maybe post commanders are thinking along the same lines.

I agree with Korb's piece. I think it a case of profit (contractors) over using sound judgement, and also flipping Russia off by having bases in thos eastern countries. Despite looking into Putin's soul, the cold war dies hard for some.

The infrastructure is already in place here. It's not exactly cost-effective to move entire communities and disrupt something that already works. It will cost more to move us back to the states. CONUS posts already have a housing and school shortage. Moving us would increase that problem 10 fold.

Besides, I don't want to go back. :)

On a personal note, military families will raise hell over long separations. I know the military doesn't care but I do know soldiers will refrain from re-enlisting if it means constant solo tours. I've seen it happen.

[lebkuchen]

58. Pissing on Russia makes for another profitable cold war

The family hell-raising is why Stuttgart may be staying open. Also, a General there was very upset that Bush was going to be shutting down the Commissary (or shoppette?), making life very difficult for family members. I think the brakes were applied on Stuttgart after that.

The Bushies are a schizoid bunch, aren't they? I wish the DoD would raise an alarm, but so far, they're all pretending that everything is status quo, when it feels like the Department is on the verge of committing hari kari.

[radric]

54. Hmm..

need to take something for that cough. Maybe use kleenex to wipe the brown off your nose too (you know, trying to score some brownie points with like-minded posters of your type). Been voting Democratic probably longer than you've been alive, just may not be left wing-ish enough for you. The info I posted was readily available from multiple places on the Net when this was first suggested a few months ago.

[sweetheart]

64. So you've been voting democratic since 1962

That makes you 60 years old. I'm married to a german, and my direct
assocations show no such love of the american presence there.

Rather, it is perceived subtly as an occupation, as it indeed once
was and (still is).

[HereSince1628]

7. I wouldn't discount the motive as limiting Russia's influence

You can take the war away from cold but you can't take war out of warrior. The cold war may be over in the newspapers but many of the "cold warriors" are still influencing policy.

And I am sure that many Russians, including Putin, see it as further encirclement.

[Stockholm]

5. Outsourcing to cheaper labour markets? n/t

[Florida_Geek]

6. Singles only

From what I have heard, the tours in Romania and Bulgaria will be without their families. So the Army types are looking at one year in Romania, then one year in Iraq repeat as needed, all without their families.

[lebkuchen]

23. You can imagine what that will do to recruitment

The divisions going would be the 1AD and 1ID. The 1ID is in Iraq now. The 1AD returned last April and is slated to leave again in Nov. In between deployments are multiple TDYs for training.

Our army is about to be bellied up. Lots of divorces on the way, many more than is typical. US taxpayers will pay for the fallout.

[lebkuchen]

8. This is the dumbest idea since the invasion of Iraq--a massive boondoggle

and will be very expensive for the U.S. Lawrence Korb, former Asst. Sec. of Defense, has written editorials about this. He points out the ludicrousness in the excuse for doing it.

http://www.cfr.org/pub6172/lawrence_j_korb/the_pentagons_eastern_obsession.php


The Germans are flummoxed as well.

Germany: Why do you want to move to Bulgaria and Romania?

US: To be closer to where the terrorists are.

Germany: Then why aren't you moving bases out of the UK?

US: Uh, uh, uh.....

Germany: How are you going to deploy all your equipment out of those two third world countries faster than you can do it in Germany? Frankfurt Airport is just an hour up the road. The road conditions in Romania and Bulgaria are horrific.

US: Uh, uh, uh....

The reason the US wants to move is so Haliburton et al can rake in the bucks on reconstruction and building contracts. You didn't think Romania and Bulgaria were going to pick up the tabs, as in Germany and Japan, did you? Poland backed out of the deal because they were going to charge rent for their old Soviet bases. The US were expecting to get free rent. Bulgaria and Romania don't have a pot to piss in, so they said, "Sure. Why not."

The move will be unaccompanied, adding to the already multiple unaccompanied tours the army has now, so it will hurt morale, though the sex trade industry in Bulgaria and Romania will flourish, as it did in the Philippines when the US was there.

The US will also have to build a support infrastructure for the military families in the States, which the Germans (and Japanese) pay for now. Major huge pork barrel projects are headed Halliburton's way.

[LostinVA]

9. Also, without dependents along

It's cheaper: no schools, family MAWR programs, more social welfare programs, not having to move cars and a whole household, etc. Of course, more of alto of negative stuff, including bad morale.

My semi-freeper sister's husband was in the military for 13 years, and whenever she starts squawking about welfare and giving stuff to people, I'm always telling her "You benefited from the one true Socialist society in America -- the US military. So shut up." She always gets mad and starts sputtering. I'm right, though. And, I'm not begrudging them that. Although, it did piss me off when I was without medical insurance, and the military gave her a free boob job.

[lebkuchen]

18. Cheaper like hell, when considering Halliburton overcharges

Also, many of the bases are in the south. During a time of segregation, the bases built schools within their complexes and integrated them so that they could fill their quota of troops, black and white. The DoD is now planning to close those base schools, with the military's children having to rely on the local public school system for their education. The problem there is that they will be a huge burden to tho public schools' budgets, which are already hurting from federal cuts.

All children will suffer as a result.

[LostinVA]

41. I'm not talking about the public schools in the US

My sister's kids have already had that happen to them. And, local communities are already pissed about it, and even talking about refusing to enroll these kids unless the military gives them money. But hey, those are Good Republican Family Values.

I'm talking about the "soldiers only" tours in Eastern Europe. Per the operational bottom line, it will appear to be loads cheaper, and that's what will be pushed onto Congress. "See how much money we'll save???" The Haliburton money is not considered operational, and will be in a different part of the budget... one that will be glossed over.

[lebkuchen]

51. Operational bottom line is just one aspect of a decision such as this move

I think it's important to look at big picture.

Also, I read today that the army is destroying ten times the amount of equipment as it does when its not at war. The Bulgarians and Romanians will be ripping off US equipment right and left. Both countries are highly insecure.

I know an army investigator who went over to Poland to investigate a wrecker being stolen. While he was there, the Poles stole his rental car. An infrastructure such as what Poland, Romania and Bulgaria have to offer does not enhance military readiness, contrary to what Rumsfeld has to say.

It's Friday. Everyone is Catholic here. Off to drink wine and eat forella!

[kineneb]

66. Welfare for Kellog, Brown & Root, Big Oil

All of this rang a bell...checking in Chalmers Johnson's book "The Sorrows of Empire" (p.145-6):
1. KBR built Camp Bondsteel in Kosovo, which is located near the proposed Trans-Balkan pipeline
2. 2 new bases being built near Burgas, Bulgaria, terminis of the proposed pipeline and home to Bulgaria's largest oil refinery
3. AF building base in Costanta, Romania, center of their oil industry

well, and, 4. Germany has no oil

I think that is BushCo's logic(?)-oil!

[Redstone]

11. Great Logic!

So, they want to move the bases from Germany, which has first-class road and airport facilities, to Romania and Bulgaria, where directions to the next town frequently include the phrase "take the second donkey track to the left," in order to make our forces more mobile?"

God damn it, statements containing this amount of stupidity make my head hurt.

Redstone

[lebkuchen]

20. Exactly, Redstone

People here talk of Germany as though it were 3rd world. It's infrastructure is the best in Europe, next to France's, a country which probably has the best road system in the world (they tax, and have road tolls).

This move will put a deeper dent in military morale (unaccompanied tours, poor school systems stateside, little support base for the stay-behind spouse) as well as the US taxpayer's pocketbook.

[alexisfree]

12. They mean closer to russia...?

:shrug:

[neweurope]

48. Yes, I think so. Lock at the map. They are trying to encircle Russia

(which I find worrisome) on all sides. The "iron curtain" went straight through Germany. At that time it was convenient to have bases in Germany. Now the US is moving the bases to the new "dividing line".


-------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[hector459]

13. Moving closer to the Arab and Muslim nations?

At the rate things are going, we will be greatly short of military man-power thanks to a lot of potential soldiers being turned off by the Iraq war based on lies and deceptions. This means we will be re-deploying troops from all over the world. I believe the Bush administration has done great, great damage to the nation with respect to a prideful military and seeking honorable service to one's country.

[lebkuchen]

21. Not to mention

he's about to immerse our military in the sex slave trade. That should work "wonders" on the military family.

[sweetheart]

15. long overdue

If we accept the premise that the military bases are necessary abroad
to maintain the empire, then they should be as close to their potential
point of application as possible. The bases in korea, okinawa, guam
and diego garcia are just taht. As well with the bases in the new "stan"
republics.

The western european bases, however, are just a waste, and by
repositioning them to the far eastern fringe of europe, the post ww2
military situation can finally be called "over" and a proper state of
forces can be set up. Surely they'll build a big airport and demand
lots of land for exercises. This will shore up nations that really
are quite run down, and help them with defense when the likelihood of
conflict is much higher in their regions. Recall, bulgaria borders on
serbia and the whole balkan situation. As well, Romaina on ukrraine
and the other black sea concerns... like the nearby caucus.

[Redstone]

19. Long overdue to shoot ourselves in the foot?

"This will shore up nations that really are quite run down, and help them with defense when the likelihood of conflict is much higher in their regions."

So we should use billions of our tax bucks to put our soldiers closer to being caught in the middle of the interminable territorial squabbles that have been a feature of life in the Balkans for 1,000 years?

So in addition to having our soldiers die for lies in Iraq, we can have them die to defend Bulgaria?

Not my kids.

Redstone

[sweetheart]

28. You mistake my "imperialist" qualifier

I said at the outset, if you accept that the military should be
having bases abroad at all. My views are that we should cut the
bases entirely and let the european union police its own borders.

I agree, that it is a pure pork arrangement, seeking to dole out the
military assistance as a form of "aid/welfare" for whatever nation
we think we're helping.

I certainly would not send my kid there. Its a fools game.

[Redstone]

34. Sorry I misunderstood

I should have realized that you were playing "devil's advocate."

I need to pay better attention.

Redstone

[lebkuchen]

22. I'll bet you own Halliburton stock

I posted the Lawrence Korb link above. Read his opinion. He used to work for Reagan, and he thinks this idea sucks.

[sweetheart]

31. I bet you play chess without moving anything but pawns

Military bases are like powerful chess pieces, and the farther they
are from a potential conflict, the harder it is for them to support
said conflict. Cost is not really the issue, rather the sensible
deployment of forces, as tarmac can be made anywhere alongside some
huts and storage depots.

The bases in britain are thousands of miles away from ANY potential
hotspot, and serve only to house nuclear weapons and listening stations
so the US can intercept communications from the EU nations by using the
british as turncoats. So surely they'll keep the listening posts and
training bits to keep britiain american, but otherwise there is little
point in staging for any conflict in britain. As well the same is
true in Germany.

So for strategic reasons, it makes sense to keep the forces in closer
deployment to their potential areas... and all of this presumes you're
an imperial chess player playing for the "middle of the board" which
in this case is the region from Kashmir to the mediterranean.

No, i do not own any halliburton stock, but i'm a pretty decent chess
player and have won championships even.... a good chess player brings
their strategic peices to bear on critical grounds of control, or
in simple transit to said grounds. A bad chess player keeps their
forces divided and away from the front through bad planning.

[lebkuchen]

37. Distance is relative when discussing a country's infrastructure

Bulgaria may look closer to Iraq on your map when measured in miles/KM, but because it's road system is so poor, it's airfields lousy, especially for an army deploying tanks and other equipment, there's no way for a division to deploy out of such an area like it can in a country like Germany, which probably has the best infrastructure in Europe.

I used to live in the Philippines. It takes three hours to go thirty miles from Clark AB to Manila. Unless you're flying or taking a boat, you can forget about getting anywhere fast.

Good luck in your next match. :)

[sweetheart]

45. Airfields and ocean ports

Both Romania and bulgaria have ocean ports, where supplies can be
brought in and out... airfields can be built. Many of the roads ARE
bad, but that is being fixed, along with the airfields, so the
redeployment won't suffer. The infrasturcture you mention only
supports the bases, and as the romanian lei is a dirt cheap currency,
any support services needed can be bought cheaper than in germany,
even with the bad infrastructure. As well, the population is well
educated and very capapble of doing any sorts of development or
industrial work necessary.

The concern for deployment is rather how far an airfield is from its
targets, and this shift, cuts 1000 miles off the trip to the middle
east... which is a huge deal considering how america fights wars.
THe forces in romania will not support an invasion of kazakstan by
road... no no... only by air. The ground forces will come from
elsewhere, makeing the road infrastructure irrelevant.

I agree that germany has great infrastructrue, and this should be
ideal for creating civilian enterprises, not for moving troops and
supplies to wars... as considering your point, you would still need to
drive the supplies through romania once you got them out of germany
on the way to the middle east... if you think america deploys its
forces on lorries!

I've given up chess. Its boring compared to modern strategic video
games like command and conquor. The new generatoin of such games
introduces so many variables and complexities that make it much more
dynamic. This is why my real position, is that the US should cut its
military bases all over the world, radically, and use the resulting
peace dividend to improve its schools, roads and social welfare at
home. The force of goodwill brought about by civilians is sooo far
much more powerful than by any military.

[lebkuchen]

57. Sure there are things that can be done to make improvements

but those improvements are a done deal in Germany already. The improvements that need to be made in Bulgaria and Romania are bone-deep, and would have to be made at a time when the US has a huge national debt and is struggling to maintain enlistments. More unaccompanied tours is not an appealing option to the 1AD and 1ID.

If I remember correctly, tanks are sent by train to Camp Darby, Bremerhaven or Antwerp, where they are put on ships and sent to the Middle East. The army just underwent a massive unit rotation last March, with another one pending in two months. The part of the rotation that didn't go smoothly was when the Iraqis attacked our units once they'd arrived and attempted to assume their responsibilities from their predecesors.

I agree, we should pull out all US bases from around the world and spend the money at home. The move to Eastern Europe is a boondoggle.

Maybe Risk would be a good alternative to chess in your case?

[Earth_First]

49. Wolfowitz? Is that you?

eom

[sweetheart]

61. Yep clearly, calling for an end to global empire

and an end to miitary bases across the globe in favour of civilian
investment.

As repblican pentagon strategist, i pretty much understand the thinking
behind the global empire gambit, and i'm merely laying it out for
inquiring minds here at DU.

;-) You don't have to be a republican to be a good military strategist,
just a seriously good one, only deploys the military when its absolutely
necessary as to do otherwise is to give away too much.

Were I the real pentagon dude in charge, the whole military would
disappear from the world's occupation and get back to defending the US.

[txaslftist]

53. A really smart person doesn't play chess with human lives.n/t

[Massachusetts]

17. Doesn't matter because its all FUBAR! Thanks Bu$hco

[leesa]

25. Do Romania and Bulgaria know? The arrogance of this country to think

they can just set up military bases wherever they feel like.

[Bono71]

27. Yes...they want the revenue badly. n/t

[SouthernDem2004]

38. The are salivating at the mere thought of it.

[tlcandie]

39. From what I've heard on FSTV... it's all about China by 2012

Star Wars is part of the footprint...footprint is ONLY the beginning of the aspiration to control the world PERIOD!

http://www.arsenalofhypocrisy.com /

<snip>
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<snip>

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<snip>

<snip>
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Arsenal of Hypocrisy has been accepted into the New York Independent International Film Festival and will be screened in April.
<snip>


This is currently showing on FSTV if any care to watch the video!

[Wind Dancer]

63. One of the best documentaries I've seen.

I must admit, it gave me nightmares.

We are playing dangerous games by wanting to control all airspace, this film should be required viewing.

[Earth_First]

46. More PNAC revelations come to light eom

[blackhorse]

56. To comment on a couple of topics in this thread ...

... the "why" of the move. General Jones is the first marine to head U.S. European Command in its history. I think part of his outlook is that ready troops are those close to ports and ships -- put shortly, the guy is expedition-oriented, whereas the traditional U.S. presence in Germany had been first occupation-oriented and then Cold War-oriented. All that considered, I'm not sure the ports will be very useful if the Turks don't want us to move through the Marmara Straights. Turkey hasn't been exactly thrilled with the War in Iraq, after all.

... German-American relations. They're okay, but I think sometimes people confuse good personal relationships with the those of nation-states. The fact that I or other Americans get along well with most Germans doesn't really have squat to do with the national needs of either nation. At the national level, the Bundesrepublik more or less opted for the NATO shield (well, it wasn't an option at the start of the Cold War, but it became more of an option as the years went on). Concurrently, as pointed out in this thread, certain German communities did well from rental income, restaurants, etc. For the U.S., basing in Germany met various national objectives that morphed from being an occupation of the former Third Reich to being a front line against communism in Europe to being a forward staging area to project power into the Middle East.

On a community level, there are a fair number of Germans who like to complain about American behavior, but love pocketing the income generated thereby. I imagine the towns in the U.S. next to major bases there do the same thing all the time; such behavior is probably typical for any community next to a garrison anywhere. Other Germans genuinely like the Americans for any number of reasons. And for some Germans, the Americans would be wrong no matter what they did. I don't really buy the argument that the Americans increase the traffic that much (unless one counts entrances to bases). Anyone who doesn't believe me should drive through Frankfurt/Main, starting on A66 and working through to B40 on the east side. The city had too much traffic in the 80s when I was a GI there, and it still has too much traffic today, with no GI presence at all. Put shortly, there are a lot of vehicles on the road in Germany from many countries.

The American military community in Germany seems to be made up of three groups. One is a large group that spends most of its time on base and is more or less invisible to the Germans. The next group gets along fair to well with the German community and doesn't cause problems. The final group are the jerks and criminals who unfortunately tend to be the ones remembered by all concerned.

I think in one way that Gen. Jones is correct. Historically, the U.S. should probably have folded in presence in Germany shortly after the Red Army returned to Russia. The U.S. might have moved in that direction had the Gulf War not taken place; that war highlighted how useful the old Cold War infrastructure in Europe could be even with the Russians no longer a threat in Europe. Since the German government isn't exactly pressing the U.S. to leave, I assume they perceive some kind of benefit at the national level from the relationship. On the people-to-people level, I think the mixing of the nations has its uses. Many Americans I've known have been profoundly affected by their time in Europe. We don't think like Americans anymore, and we don't think like Europeans. We're somewhere in between where we can perceive the benefits and problems of both nations.

Cheers

Blackhorse

[lebkuchen]

59. as for traffic, the wall came down in 1989

All the trucks coming into Germany from Eastern Europe have increased traffic immensely on German autobahns. The right hand autobahn lanes are typically full of LKVs M-Sat. It didn't used to be that way. The right hand lane is pretty beat up in much of Germany. If the military were still a major presense in Frankfurt now, Autobahn 3 would be more of a mess than it is today, IMO, and readiness would be hurt.

Okinawa has one major thoroughfare, HWY 58. That road, from Naha to Kadena, is at standstill during much of the day, with the 20,000 GIs located there contributing to the problem. Just driving a few miles to Camp Butler takes at least 30 minutes, because of the military traffic. If the military were to leave, it would ease congestion by a wide margin.

That's one reason, as I said, why the military was hoping for less of an imprint by expanding bases in more remote areas, such as Graf, where a lot of the training takes place. Taking Autobahn 7 in that direction is a breeze. There is no traffic, except for the LKVs.

As for the roads in Eastern Germany, they are terrible. Horse drawn carts are still used. Pretty primitive, and they have no money to make improvements. I guess that's where US tax dollars come in.

[blackhorse]

62. German traffic and roads

Lebkuchen,

Yeah, the amount of truck traffic is staggering most days. The right hand lanes seem to be under almost constant repair. Maybe the new Maut will ease the problem somewhat. My pet peeve is when the trucks do the "elephant crawl" up hills (gee, my truck can drive 1 km/h faster than this truck next to me!)

One aspect of military traffic has almost disappeared in Germany, that of the convoys. Germans driving at 120 mph didn't mix well with tanks moving at 45 mph. No doubt the Germans are relieved to have the tanks off the Autobahn.

The former DDR is a weird mix of the old and the new. Cities like Leipzig are being turned into gems (while many of the old "west German" cities are hurting for cash), but the surrounding countryside is, as you note, kind of like old Europe. Poland has the same dichotomy; big construction in the cities and horse drawn vehicles in the country. Not sure where it is all going, but the pace of change in Germany is breathtaking at the moment.

Cheers

Blackhorse

[ausiedownunderground]

65. Can anyone tell me who the leader of Bulgaria or Romania is??

Most Americans would be lucky to know where on a map these two countries are? This move is not good militarily at all, but boy, are some engineering firms going to be happy!! Maybe Bechtel, Halliburton? But it doesn't matter, as American firms are loosing out big time with the TSunami re-construction orders!!!!!