Israel says Russia's arms sale plans disrupt regional stability

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/html/20050113T200000-0500_73151_OBS_ISRAEL_SAYS_RUSSIA_S_ARMS_SALE_PLANS_DISRUPT_REGIONAL_STABILITY.asp

AP
Friday, January 14, 2005

JERUSALEM, Israel (AP) - The planned sale of advanced Russian missiles to Syria will disrupt regional stability and Moscow should call off the deal, Israel's foreign minister said yesterday.

Israel fears that the shoulder-held anti-aircraft missiles could fall into the hands of Lebanese guerrillas and be aimed at Israeli targets. snip

Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom was the first official to confirm publicly that Israel has asked Russia to halt the deal. "We turned to the Russians and asked that they not complete this deal," Shalom said yesterday. "Syria is a country that supports terror and is supplying Hezbollah with weapons non-stop."

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[hector459]

1. I guess it will disrupt the balance of weapons

by making weapons possession more even. It seems that Israel has all the weapons of mass destrution in the region.

[hadrons]

2. that gov't support the Iraq invasion now worried about regional stability

:eyes:

[sweetheart]

3. "live by the sword, die by the sword."

Perhaps there is an omission in the jewish koran, as surely these chaps
must know better. They've stirred up a hornets nest of hatred by their
barbarous internment, occupation, theft and murder of the palestinean
peoples... and now they're concerned about stability. Boys, you can't
have it both ways. Either you show you're prepared to deal honestly
with your long-time enemies, or expect the balance to shift against
you.

Weapons imbalances are like osmosis (diffusion) processes. On one side
of the membrane is salt water, and the other clear water, it is just
a matter of time until both sides are equally salty with missiles and
vices of warmongers. Its your own fault.

That russia has long antisemitic memes that seem to be a potential
untiting force for the despot putin makes things no better, but geez,
there comes a time where israeli behaviour helps justify the memes as
a way to protect people from indescriminant israaeli military actions.

Boys, if you want russia to chill out, then you should make a 1967 peace
in the west bank right pronto on the fair borders and show that you
are able to live in peace, sharing jerusalem with your neighbors.
As it stands, i doubt there is anyone in the world that would want to
live next to israel without a serious military stockpile guarding
them, as it seems advantage is taken.

[NNN0LHI]

5. You are right

If Israel were to do what you suggest no one would want to purchase any Russian missiles. There would be no market for them.

Don

[jmcgowanjm]

7. Outstanding synopsis, sweetheart

Who was it that advised US to invade Iraq.

Anyone feel safer because the US did this

And one of Israel's closest allies has their
punk royalty dress up as a.... waitforit...Nazi.
(And he refuses to publicly apologize!!)

[sweetheart]

8. Your last comment is a bit wide of the mark

I presume you mean britain, and prince harry. Britain
is not one of israel's close allies, rather that might be the
US. The british interest these days is that israel make a lasting
peace with its neighbors, so that it does not exacerbate wars that
affect the EU, britain and humanity.

Prince harry DID apologize, and frankly, i don't feel he needed to.
He is a free citizen with the right to wear any costume he feels like
as that is his right in a free country. I don't agree with his
costume, but that is not the issue... rather the concern is that his
free speech is also my own, and when you censor his taste in clothing,
you are merely advocating burning books.

[jmcgowanjm]

11. Let me have that apology again

If I have caused offense...that one?
If someone apologized to me like that
I' d be watching his weapon hand.

As David Irving commented earlier: "let’s just hope that
nobody will remember that Prince Philip (the Duke of
Edinburgh) has or had four sisters all of whom were in
Nazi Germany during WWII, married either
to SS-Obergruppenführers, Nazi gauleiters, or
Hermann Göring's chief of Intelligence, the Prince Christian
von Hesse; and that as for the father of Princess Michael of
Kent, he was of course an Austrian SS
Obergruppenführer."

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=2685

The Sykes Pinchot Agreement was only
discovered because of the collapse of the Czar.
Britain, France, Israel, the Suez 1956?

Export licences for weapons are being cleared even though
Jack Straw, the foreign secretary, has admitted that Israel
has breached assurances that British equipment would not
be used in the occupied territories. Exports approved by
the government this year cover categories including leg-
irons, electric shock belts and chemical and biological
agents such as tear gas. They also include categories
covering mortars, rocket launchers, anti-tank weapons,
military explosives, and infrared and radar
sensors.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1077800,00.html

The ties to the US might be richer,
the ties to Britain are older,
and I'm sure that Britain never
forgets it's former colonies.

[jmcgowanjm]

13. Swastikas and Wermacht insignia are clothes

only in the loosest definition. Closer would be
symbols and flags.

I would like to have seen the reaction if
li'l harry had dressed up as an IRA Provo
wearing the Tricolor.

I bet he never would've made it to the party.

And about the bookburning.
That's anathema to my character.

Finally, with freedoms come responsibilities.
The education of the Brit Royals
seems to be lacking.

[sweetheart]

17. No slight intended of your good self

I merely pointed that book burning is just another step towards
intolerance, and we need to eshcew it in even its subtle manifestations.

Yes, indeed there was the balfour declaration and all that whatnot
of the origins of israel. That said, after the suez crisis, america
became the principal ally of israel, (liberty incident aside).
Nowadays, israel is cozying up to china as american power wanes in
asia.

The article you quote on british military equiptment being abused to
murder people by israel is really cockpit HUD's sold to the USA and
being re-shipped to israel... and to enforce the agreement to not
supply would have meant disconnecting from any defense agreements with
the US who then sells on weapons to murderous regimes.

I'm challenged to consider what harry could have worn to seem more
inappropriate... perhaps he should have gone naked! :-)

I can't help but see this as the perverse result of over-educating the
public about the nazis.... that by blasing the propaganda on the
airwaves over and over, we end up creating a fascination with this
mysterious cult... and if we keep up this media blast, likely there
will be further blowback with the swaztika and nazi gear used
increasingly as symbols of counterculture, and political incorrectness
to rebell against a culture that brings us falluja fresh off the
mass murder roles.

Had he worn an iraqi muslim outfit with a fake AK47, it probably
would have created the largest stir of all, so the public can rise
up and support more bush war-crimes.

Stupid youth indeed, but lest we brand all people wearing the rising
sun of japan, the confederate flag of america or the nazi swaztika,
perhaps we should just disempower the symbols and respond rather
than with disgust, with "Whaat-eeever!" and finally let the dead
wars die.

[jmcgowanjm]

25. Looking in the mirror, I see my family history

in alot of cases it is not pretty.

I have to fight alot of bigotry, ignorance, hypocrisy.

What my ancestors chose, felt they were forced,
to do.

Never again. There were small windows of
opportunity for me to say this. And change my
life for the better.

L'il Harry may have been playing. His Dad, Phillip.
the Queen and many others of the Brit Royalty
know better.

Prince Albert became King George V1 in 1936 and
Elizabeth become Queen Elizabeth 1 - later known as the
Queen Mother. In recent years, newspaper article concerning
the Queen Mothers favourable attitude to the “pro-
peace movement” spoke of her “desire to avert war
with Germany and for closer ties to be established between
the two countries.” <37>   One newspaper went so far as to
state that the Queen would have willingly accepted a
German occupation providing that the monarchy and her place
in it remained intact. <38>  

http://www.deepblacklies.co.uk/princes_of_plunder.htm

And BTW-isn't there always a good excuse
of why -we wish we could stop doing this bad
thing-like arming fascists in Israel but it would-
disconnect us from any defense agreements with
the US-a power, like the UK, has to continue relations
with the unsavory elements.

I mean, nothing pissed off the UStroops more than
seeing after a WWII battle, Ford emblems on
German trucks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutzstaffel

That said, I would love to discuss more with you.
I like the way you write.

Dance as though no one is watching you,
Love as though you have never loved before,
Sing as though no one can hear you,
Live as though heaven is on earth.

[Moe Levine]

27. censorship?

criticism is not censorship, its free speech. For example, saying that "Harry appears to be a fool" is free speech.

[Moe Levine]

28. barbarous internment, occupation, theft and murder

It seems to me that you have it all backwards. I have never seen nor heard of a suicide bomber from Israel . . .

On the other hand, the palestinean people has a new opportunity, every day to show that are able to live in peace, but there is no evidence of any plan, design, or intent on their part to do such.

[Malva Zebrina]

30. I have never heard of a suicide bomber that is an American either

and the reason is because we have the money and the equiptment to bomb out entire villages, destroy ancient museums filled with artifacts of the earliest civilization, and we do not NEED suicide bombers with so much to be gained from total annhiliation with up to the minute military technology.

We have done that. So has Israel. And NO ONE has gained a thing. As the atrocity continues, world opinion of the both, is reaching the point where no noble intentions can be ascribed to either. It is barbarism to say the least.

Suicide bombing, is the weapon of the deperate and the oppressed. The weapon of the resistance, and Iraq resistance is the living history of how people will desperately defend their homes, their land, and their family, even if they have nothing else but some stick of dynamite and blow themselves up.

The suicide bombings, are a testimony to the suffering of the invaded, the occupation and the occupiers.

[DELUSIONAL]

4. And the US sale of arms & bombs to Israel doesn't?

It seems like Israel just recently attacked it's neighbor Syria -- with US made planes and probably arms.

This sounds like one of the dilemmas in the Star Trek series --

The last sentence can also read: "Israel is a country that support terror and is supplying settlers in the occupied territory with weapons non-stop."

That is if we want to try to see both sides of the argument -- neither side in this conflict has hands free of their victim's blood.

The US is propping up Israel to the tune of billions of $$$$ -- of US taxpayers money. As a US taxpayer watching the needy of the US going without tuition for schools, affordable health care for all -- this makes me rather cranky when Israel comes demanding a few million more for this or that.

Making the weapons makers richer -- is this the path to peace in the middle east?

[Capt_Nemo]

6. Russia tells Israel to get over it...

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tempest]

10. Israel - 5th largest arms exporter in the world in 2003

http://www.newsoftheday.com/israel/old/2003_05_18_index.html

Arms sales in Asia last year helped Israeli defense exports reach a record $4.18 billion, making Israel the fifth-largest arms exporter in the world. Israel´s arms exports last year were nearly 70 percent higher than the previous year, when sales totaled $2.5 billion.

Only the United States, European Union, Russia and Japan have larger arms exports than Israel.



"Do not judge lest you be judged. "For in the way that you judge you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. "And why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? "Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye? "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye." (Matthew 7:1-5)

[Behind the Aegis]

12. Question

Do you think others throughout the world hate the US as much as people here seem to hate the state of Israel? Are some of the same responses posted here (and throughout DU) the same we would see if there was an "international" DU? Perhaps the log needing removal is also from our own eye.

[tlcandie]

14. Regional stability is relevant, no? What stability? n/t

[EmpireWeAre]

15. AP Wrong Again

The proposed sale is for SS-26 Iskander missiles. These are not the shoulder mounted "Stinger" type of AA missile.
SS-26:
Flight range: 280 km; Launch weight of missile: 3,800 kg; Warhead mass: 480 kg; Warhead type: cluster (54 submunitions), fragmentation-high explosive, penetrating; Number of missiles on launcher: two

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/050112/1/3ptkk.html
http://www.missilethreat.com/news/200408270833.html

[NNN0LHI]

20. MORE MISSILES RUMORED IN RUSSIA-SYRIA DEAL

http://www.icej.org/cgi-local/view.cgi?type=headline&artid=2005/01/13/855232785

Shoulder-Held and Mobile Systems Threaten Israel, US Troops

Russia is denying reports that it is planning to sell advanced missile systems to Syria, but Israeli officials are alarmed the deal could threaten the balance of power in the region while the US is warning of sanctions if the sale goes through.

During a visit to Washington on Thursday, Russia Russian Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov denied that Moscow was in talks with Syria over advanced missile sales. But US State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said Washington had seen the reports and would oppose "the sale of lethal military equipment to Syria, which is a state sponsor of terrorism."

Meanwhile in Jerusalem, Israeli experts said the sale likely involves Russia's latest mobile, medium-range surface-to-surface missiles that can reach most of Israel, as well as the most sophisticated shoulder-held anti-aircraft missiles on the market.

Israel is concerned that they could endanger IAF and civilian aircraft and could fall into the hands of Hizb'Allah or other terror groups. The US is also worried they could be used against American troops in Iraq.

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[EmpireWeAre]

21. Not good for US helos if these start getting into Iraq

The SA-18 GROUSE (Igla 9K38) has a 2 kg. high-explosive warhead. Range of the Igla is estimated at 5200m and a maxium altitude of 3500m. SA-18 employs an IR guidance system using proportional convergence logic. The probability of kill against an unprotected fighter is estimated at 30-48%, and the use of IRCM jammers only degrades this to 24-30%.

The Igla SA18, which cost £130,000 each, is one of the most sophisticated shoulder-held anti-aircraft missiles on the market. Military analysts say it is the weapon of choice for many militants because of its simplicity and in-built training system.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/01/13/wmid13.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/01/13/ixworld.html

[VegasWolf]

16. Why worry if Syria gets weapons, it will just advance the timeline for

the Rupture and they will all be happy in their white
gowns floating around in the sky.

[leftofcool]

23. Please let it be so..............

then the rest of use "real" people left of Earth can turn their damned weapons into plowshares.

Left of Cool

[Guns Aximbo]

18. And who does Shalom

Think Russia is selling the weapons too?

Syria will be better equipped than Iraq's army was at the start of the Iraq war.

[aikido15]

19. There are so many conflicting stories....

Russia and Syria are both saying that this is an Israeli/US propaganda scheme to set Syria up for invasion because US wants to fire bomb suspected terrorist training camps...I'm afraid I would lean toward that interpretation of the story, knowing Israel and US history of propaganda.

[Calico Jack Rackham]

22. I think the real worry is that

Russia does not repay us by accidently making those Strelas fall into the hands of the Iraqi resistance.

Make no mistake about it, the real danger would be to our forces when Syrian fighters start streaming across the border with the latest MANPAD technology.

Of course the Israelis don't want to get their F-16s that we sold them shot down either; well, at least until they've had a chance to sell more of them to the Chinese.

[donheld]

24. Israel has a lot of nerve talking about disrupting stability

Israel hasn't done anything but disrupt the stability for 50 years now. It seems to me they make it worse by the minute. What they really are saying is they don't want to see the odds evened out in the slightest.

[ausiedownunderground]

26. This deal is much bigger than "IGLA" manpads

Syria wants Russia's new, i think and i'm only thinking, NATO is calling it ASKLANDER medium range continental ballistic missile's, as well. This missile is supposedly awsome and the US patriot etc systems are no match for it. In fact iv'e been told that Raytheon and Co will take 10 years to even get close to what the Russians are developing now in "Missile" and "Torpedo" technology.
This is why Israel is so scared! No US countermeasure!! Be real funny if things were "Evened up" in The Middle East?

[Guns Aximbo]

29. So does the wall and oppression and ocupation...