Submarine Crash Shows Navy Had Gaps in Mapping System

[Rose Siding]

snip>
The submarine had crashed head-on into an undersea mountain that was not on the charts. One sailor was killed, and about 60 others were injured. Now, Defense Department officials say they have found a satellite image taken in 1999 that indicates an undersea mountain rising to perhaps within 100 feet below the surface there.

But the older navigation charts provided to the Navy were never updated to show the obstruction, they acknowledge, in part because the agency that creates them has never had the resources to use the satellite data systematically.

The officials said the main chart on the submarine, prepared in 1989 and never revised, did not show any potential obstacles within three miles of the crash. They said the incident happened in such a desolate area - 360 miles southeast of Guam - that updating their depiction of the undersea terrain was never considered a priority.

The new information about the charting flaws also illustrates what many experts say is a broader danger not only to submarines but also to many surface ships. At the same time, it provides a glimpse into the arcane task of plotting an undersea world that in some areas is still more mysterious than the surfaces of Mars or Venus.

http://nytimes.com/2005/01/15/national/15submarine.html?hp&ex=1105765200&en=0feeff80f8224eb6&ei=5094&partner=homepage

[Hard Attack]

1. I don't believe any of this story

Something happened down there that they do not want to tell us, so the story grows but the truth will remain top secret.

[bahrbearian]

3. Exactly They have more than maps.

[Rose Siding]

4. I don't know- this exposes a pretty big screw-up

We send our people out in hundreds of millions of dollars worth of equipment, spend hundreds of millions on satellites, and the govt doesn't even bother to avail itself of the information?

[IndianaGreen]

15. Perhaps the sub hit Godzilla?

Or more likely, the sub did hit something that they don't want us to know, or don't care to tell us, but it was not an undersea mountain. If the sub had run into an undersea mountain while traveling at 60 knots, it would have been destroyed by the sheer force of the impact.

I haven't seen any pictures of the damage to the hull, as anyone else?

[bahrbearian]

2. Where was the sonar ?

[hootinholler]

6. What Sonar?

You can't hear a seamount. U.S. Subs don't go ping.

In the Submarine bidniz quiet is all. Active sonar = death.

The archepelago that Guam is part of (Marianas) has a lot of pinnicles jutting up from the trench, deepest spot in the pacific ocean, possibly the world. Navoceano could have easily missed a pinnacle.

-Hoot

On Edit: 360 NM from Guam sounds funny though, perhaps the Chineese have learned the "crazy Ivan?" Lot's of countries have subs though, even Iran.

[yinkaafrica]

16. wow, how do subs navigate without sonar?

Seems like there must be more to this story

[hootinholler]

18. Very Carefully...

I know it sounds flippant, but it is true.

They use a technique called Dead Reckoning (for obvious reasons). Manual dead reckoning is rather inexact mainly because you can't tell where the currents are pushing you. Additionally errors are cumulative and compound.

A *very* simplistic explanation:

Basically you know your speed, direction and start point and keep track of where you go. The navy has machines that do this. The are called inertial navigators (or if you work on them 'naviguesser'). Airplanes and missiles have them too. They are highly accurate, actually they were when I worked on them in the early 80's. I suspect the accuracy has improved since them.

These are basically 3 accelerometers mounted on a gimbaled platform orthoganally (x,y and z axes) such that the orientation of the AMs are held steady relative to some arbitrary reference. All accelerations are measured and integrated (added and subtracted) to find the 3 dimensional velocity vector, which is then integrated to find position.

Position is verified occaisionally by some method (called getting a fix) which could be GPS, or some other method.

'I could tell you more, but then I'd have to shoot you.'

Folks, submarines bump into stuff. It happens. When they do, it's expensive to fix.

It could have been another sub, an uncharted or even new seamount (yes they do happen through volcanism, especially in the Pacific), or a submerged cargo container. Containers are a real problem to navigation when they are washed overboard. If they are airtight they will suspend at some depth where they achieve neutral boyancy.

-Hoot

[Zynx]

7. US subs do not run with active sonar

Not unless they are part of a carrier group, where there job is to make as much noise as possible because it doesn't matter and helps spot potential enemy subs.

Generally, a US sub will only have passive sonar on, and this is probably not going to pick up a mountain.

[deminflorida]

11. If they were running silent in a lane it wasn't on.....

They were simply using Dead-Reckoning Navigation (A DR). If the chart was wrong, this is possible. The Pacific is a very BIG pond folks.

[NYC]

5. Largest defense budget in the world.

They can't spend a few bucks revising charts for the Navy? Suppose this was a war, and traversing that area was crucial?

I guess all the money is going to defense contractors.

So, once again people have been injured/killed because of money.

[neverforget]

9. NASA crashed a spacecraft into Mars because of the metric system.

Not updating maps is very plausible because of complacency. It's the simple things you have to watch out for.

[NYC]

10. Really?

The metric system?d Almost laughable. All the way to Mars, then crashed for such a reason.

[happyslug]

13. Here is an Article on the Mars Crash

http://pass.maths.org.uk/issue10/news/mars/

[NYC]

20. Thank you very much.

:hi:

[CottonBear]

8. My co-worker is a sub vet.

I asked some questions but he just said that lots of the crew will lose jobs or be demoted. I've known other submariners. They don't ever speak of their work except in the most general terms. Who knows what happened. I do know that there are no doctors on board. There are just medics. If there is a medical emergency, a helicopter will come to where the sub surfaces and airlift the crewmember to a hospital.

[hootinholler]

19. Tell him Hi from a John Adams Vet.

SSBN 620 '83-'84

We're not called the Silent Service for nothing.

-Hoot

[CottonBear]

21. I will tell him Hi!

I think that he served during those years. I am in awe of anyone who could be a submariner. I am way too claustrophobic to go undersea. I did take the Jules Vern ride at Disney World!

edit: sp.

[ausiedownunderground]

12. Where was the USS San Francisco when it crashed????

Ask your navy - interesting question?

[radric]

14. You mean ask the US Navy this?

"The officials said the main chart on the submarine, prepared in 1989 and never revised, did not show any potential obstacles within three miles of the crash. They said the incident happened in such a desolate area - 360 miles southeast of Guam - that updating their depiction of the undersea terrain was never considered a priority."

From the link provided by the OP..

[Supersedeas]

17. shouldn't this be classified as a Nuclear Incident

absolutely no doubt that the sub was nuclear powered...did it have nuclear weapons on board as well...probably.

I know...low priority.