Congress killed measures to ban U.S. use of torture

[Tinoire]

:mad:


Congress killed measures to ban U.S. use of torture
By Douglas Jehl and David Johnston The New York Times Friday, January 14, 2005

White House opposed including restrictions

WASHINGTON At the urging of the White House, congressional leaders scrapped a legislative measure last month that would have imposed new restrictions on the use of extreme interrogation measures by U.S. intelligence officers, congressional officials say.
.
The defeat of the proposal affects one of the most shadowy arenas of the war on terrorism, involving the CIA's secret detention and interrogation of top terror leaders like Khalid Sheik Mohammed, the mastermind of the September 2001 attacks, and about three dozen other senior members of Al Qaeda and its offshoots.
.
The Senate had approved the new restrictions, by a 96-2 vote, as part of the intelligence reform legislation. The restrictions would have explicitly extended to intelligence officers a prohibition against the use of torture or inhumane treatment, and it would have required the CIA as well as the Pentagon to report to Congress about the methods they were using.
.
But in intense, closed-door negotiations, according to congressional officials, four senior lawmakers from the House and Senate deleted the restrictions from the final bill after the White House expressed opposition to the measure. Two congressional negotiators said in interviews that lawmakers had ultimately decided that the question of whether to extend the restrictions to intelligence officers was too complex to be included in the legislation.
.
In a letter to members of Congress, sent in October and made available by the White House on Wednesday, Condoleezza Rice, the national security adviser, expressed opposition to the measure on the ground that it "provides legal protections to foreign prisoners to which they are not now entitled under applicable law and policy."
.
(snip)

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/01/13/news/ban.html

(snip)

In addition to Collins and Harman, the lawmakers involved in the conference committee negotiations were Sen. Joe Lieberman, D-Conn., and Rep. Peter Hoekstra, R-Mich.

(snip)

http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthsuperior/10643525.htm

[tlcandie]

1. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Because there are no words to explain how this makes me feel!

[Tinoire]

6. I want to know who all "4 senior lawmakers" from the House & Senate

were!

[leftchick]

11. me too!

and at this point sadly I would not be surprised if a Democrat was one.

:(

[Tinoire]

12. I just edited my post. Check the end of my post... Def a "Dem" in there /t

[tlcandie]

14. I wonder how those who voted for Lib feel now?

:puke:

[leftchick]

16. how fucking predictable...

holy Joe. repuke asskisser and door mat? Who would have guessed?

:puke:

[laylah]

44. And he's a JEW!

Despicable! My ex is Jewish and had family affected by the Holocaust. For a Jew (or anyone else, for that matter) to condone ANY kind of torture, containment, degradation leaves me speechless! Lieberman is a freak and does not deserve the right to call himself a Jew. :mad:

Jenn

Edited to add another thought

[Jack Rabbit]

17. No Democrats there

Just a couple of neocon whores.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Can anybody tell me who we got

from Nuremberg to ... THIS?

[Jack Rabbit]

3. So, Congress has enabled war criminals

There is no other way to look at this.

I would remind Dr. Rice that foreign prisoners do, in fact, have legal protections. The problem is that she and the other criminals in the Bush junta do not respect them.

Someday, there will be an accounting and members of the Bush junta, including Dr. Rice, will answer for their war crimes and crimes against humanity.

[Tinoire]

4. Excellent post

((and by the way- congratulations- glad you finally made an honest woman out of my friend!)) :hi:

I pray I see that day... when they answer for their crimes.

[Jack Rabbit]

7. I just showed that post to MaryBear

We're both rolling on the floor laughing.

[Tinoire]

8. Well

Just remember to keep it "chaste" ;)

Now... about those 4 senior lawmakers... Who? I'm googling now

[Jack Rabbit]

10. I doubt he will be named explicitly

but that MO is patented by Tom DeLay. This has got his fingerprints all over it.

[Solly Mack]

20. Here's all 4

In interviews on Wednesday, Sen. Susan Collins of Maine, a Republican negotiator, and Rep. Jane Harman of California, a Democratic negotiator, both said the lawmakers had ultimately decided that the question of whether to extend the restrictions to intelligence officers was too complex to be included in the legislation

http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=62671


At times, their discussion included an assessment of whether specific measures, on a detainee-by-detainee basis, would cause such pain to be considered torture. In addition to Collins and Harman, the lawmakers involved in the negotiations were Sen. Joe Lieberman, D-Conn., and Rep. Peter Hoekstra, R-Mich

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/01/13/MNGGUAPER31.DTL

[Judi Lynn]

36. You're not alone in this. My God.

It simply takes your breath away, when you realize we've actually watached them on C-Span, heard them speaking, listened to them with open hearts, held ourselves open for our best possible view of them, giving them the benefit of the doubt over YEARS when they have come up short in previous situations.

When they've held positions which seemed odd or poorly thought out, you'd tend to imagine they were shakey, having too much pressure from outside, and would eventually develope strength, character, courage and start making a difference.

This is something which can't be overlooked or justified. Not ever.

Thanks, Tinoire. We really need to know how these things happen.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Those "leaders" will stand in trial

one day, if nto before man before God... and I am not religious, but these folks have a very warm spot reserved all on its own for them, with the likes of Adolph, Stalin, and other war criminals

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

5. WTF? Banning torture is "too complex"?

We really have gone to hell in the proverbial handbasket. We are a rogue nation now.

:nuke:

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. I fired this to my delegation

Dear Congresswoman,

There are days I have to wondered what hapopened to the moral compass we once had. There was a time when we led the word in human rights protection and even sat in judgement over War Criminals. We found that those who gave the orders were responsible for the crimes, as much as the troops who carried those orders. Yet today we find ourselves a rogue nation, who'se leaders one day will have to answer for their crimes against humanity. Moreover, we find ourselves reading about this news not in the New York Times, a member of the ever so loyal to the Reich Stenography Corp, but in the foreign Press. Pleae do read on, and remember, moral responsibilty is also that of those who refused to speak out.

Speaking off, boys at NSA, I know Carnivoere and Echelon ARE watching and I know that my rights are gone thank you to the Patriot Act. Remember you to have a moral responsibltiy and you too live now the dilema of being a moral person in an immoral society.

So hi boys and girls, enjoy, maybe some among you will have the presence of consicence to speak out, for you know best what is being done right now by those who hold power and those who obey orders... for you are among them....

[Tinoire]

21. Good for you! I'm going to write to them about this too now! n/t

:thumbsup:

[TryingToWarnYou]

15. So, why didnt the Dem senators take a stand against torture?

This is, apparently, an endemic problem. Having our representatives fail to tolerate it, we, by omission of action, enable it.

I lose more and more faith in our government as each day passes.

[MisterP]

18. Joementum is the energy contained in a swinging fist to the temple

we read you loud and clear, Holy Joe. Go play with your buddies in AVOT and CPD and leave the people of Connecticut alone.

[AliceWonderland]

19. Adding insult to injury, why is the NYT reporting garbage like:

"...top terror leaders like Khalid Sheik Mohammed, the mastermind of the September 2001 attacks, and about three dozen other senior members of Al Qaeda and its offshoots."

Why is there no evidence to back up statements like these? Mastermind of 9-11. Al Qaeda and its "offshoots." Honestly, I'm reaching the point where I believe nothing I see in a newspaper. I'm an old fashioned if-it-wouldn't-stand-up-in-court-don't-present-it-as-undisputed-fact kind of gal.

Oh, and where is the opposition, the check and balance on power, standing up and protesting this legislative outrage?

As the Enlightenment crumbles around me, it's hard to pick what to be outraged about most.

[Just Me]

22. A facet of fascism: disdain for recognition of human rights.

Democracy is being sold off to corporate predators.

[sweetheart]

23. considering the rape and torture in US prisons

Its a bit much to make it illegal, as then the prison state would be
liabel for billions in compensation to those tortured inside the US
racist prison system.

American culture is one of abuse, hatred and torture, and of course
the legislators of such a culture would never outlaw their own methods.

[Just Me]

24. I have to confess that,...this makes me terribly sad.

This just is NOT my country anymore. My country has been taken over by a disease.

[louis-t]

25. OK, so, anything short of massive organ failure or death

is NOT torture, that's how we know we don't torture. Therefore, humiliation, degradation, etc. are not considered torture. Then why is Grainer in jail? :shrug:

[Jack Rabbit]

26. That's a good question

If Congress can't pass this bill, then Specialist Graner should be freed and his rank restored to Staff Sergeant.

It's only right.

[Tinoire]

35. Good question. Excellent question. I suspect for getting 'caught'

& "embarrassing the military".

Damn digital cameras in a war zone as Rumself lamented.

[daleo]

27. Sometimes you would swear the Nazi leadership has reincarnated

And is taking over the current U.S. government and power structure.

[Jack Rabbit]

28. I would disagree with that, but the reason wouldn't flatter the Bushies

Comparing Bush to Hitler is wrong. Hitler was first and foremost a murderer. Bush is first and foremost a thief.

True, each dabbled in the other's business, but it seems almost incidental to what was by each in his primary occupation. Hitler stole things from Jews and his other victims, but that was after murdering them. There is no evidence that Hitler personally coveted anything any Jew owned.

Of course, Bush murders; but this, too, is incidental to his stealing. Lying comes much more easily to him. He knew damn good and well that Iraq was no threat her weakest neighbor, let alone to America, and that she had no ties to Osama; Iraq was invaded in order to turn its wealth over to his corporate cronies. Naturally, he couldn't do that without murdering a few Iraqis; and that he has. Nevertheless, Hitler murdered about 11 million noncombatants during his reign of terror; Bush, by the most liberal estimates, has only murdered about 100,000 during his. That's hardly a drop in the bucket compared to Hitler's total. Even considering that Bush is still working on it, it is doubtful that he could catch up and probably doesn't have any real ambitions to do so.

So, please, let's cut the Bush/Hitler comparisons. It's like comparing Willie Sutton to Ted Bundy. It's just wrong.

[teryang]

29. So far you're right but it could change quickly

...all it takes is one more stupid miscalculation, like invading Iran or attacking N.Korea. In less than a year we could be into the seven figures that people feel is necessary to make the comparison.

In point of fact, it could be over several millions in a matter of months, if the fascists in power continue on with their stumblebum belligerence.

But because they have already taken complete power, they have years to reach the benchmarks set by other infamous dictatorships.

[Jack Rabbit]

30. Yes, it could

Still, with whose army is he going to attack Iran or North Korea? He has 150,000 troops tied up in Iraq protecting that country's government from Iraqis. There not much left over to open up another front, especially in Iran. The complications of occupying Iran will be about four times what they are in Iraq.

Nevertheless, as The Magistrate said, the usual "it's just too stupid to even try" test fails with the Bush junta. There seems nothing that is too stupid for them to do.

[teryang]

31. I agree with your perspective and the Magistrate's

Some well informed critics regard our current regime as low profile terror or totalitarianism lite. So far there is a good argument for this contention.

As far as expanded military conflict, it is too stupid to try but the drum beaters are out there pushing it. The B team from the neo con NGO nerd tanks is looking to cut their teeth on a new conquest.

[daleo]

34. I was thinking more about the torture aspect

And waging of aggressive war on nations that present no threat, using a pretext of lies and control of the media. Also, the slow subversion of a democratic constitution and replacement of it with the lawless rule of the strong.

It is true that Bush has not managed Hitler's numbers (yet). He is a work in progress. But Hitler had about 12 years to accomplish his work, and hadn't really even started by year 4 or 5 (that would be 1937 or 1938, I think). Also, Bush could unleash scales of death in a day or two that would make Hitler green with envy, so don't mis-underestimate him.

Also, I don't believe that Dictator A has to follow Dictator B in every feature for the comparison to be useful. As for the reincarnation element, well some people take that sort of idea pretty seriously. I don't know where I stand on that yet.

[Jack Rabbit]

37. Your hitting on something that is another major difference

Bush does not control the media. As compliant as the media has been, that seems difficult to believe at times, but there is no way for him to control the media the same way traditional totalitarian governments do.

The phenomena arises from the fact that those who control the media are the same people who have foot the bill for Bush's political career. If anything, the same people who control the media also control Bush.

This is not classical fascism. This is something else, even if it is no less a threat to democratic principles and welfare of the majority of humanity.

[daleo]

39. Agreed there are many types of despots

They may vary in their origin and specific philosophy but all are dangerous to democratic and reasonable people.

[daleo]

42. I would expand about torture, and Bush vs Hitler in this way

German culture and civilization has had many great features, but I don't believe it ever had a long tradition of respect for human rights and democracy. The Anglo-American tradition (flawed as it is), on the other hand has had a concern for human rights and dignity going back at least as far as Magna Carta in the 12th century. So, the contempt shown for the ideals of democracy and human rights that Bush has shown seems worse in an important way than Hitler. It strikes at the very root of the concept, whereas Hitler only struck at the branch.

[BR_Parkway]

43. The media is more concerned with not upsetting the stock market, so

they ignore, they downplay, they repeat rumor as fact until "everyone" knows it. I hate to say it, but if the Dems were running the show this poorly, outside of the wingnuts on hate radio, I don't expect that the MSM would be much more vocal. Oh, they'd spend millions unearthing a sexual scandal, but things that would undermine the faith in the gov't and send their stock sinking on Wall St? No way would they touch that.


My brother lives in Germany and was here for Christmas holidays. One comment he made was how he couldn't believe how much our "news" had become People magazine. But the celebs, Scott Peterson, and all of that don't cause more than the tiniest blip on the market. We won't get a truly Free Press until more of it is in the hands of an individual with some integrity, not a a bunch of stockholder's more committed to their profits. The days when the paper would report something that might get it in trouble, or piss off their access to parts of the government are over.

[leesa]

32. I hate my country...and I despise the psychopath Lieberman.

[Jack Rabbit]

33. I love my country . . . and I despise those who have soiled its name

by tolerating these unspeakable crimes.

[Jack Rabbit]

38. Some thoughts on torture and the Bushies' use of it

Two articles from last year.

Please click here.

[bvar22]

40. Our system is VERY broken.

A bill against torture passes the Senate by 98 to 2.

Four "senior lawmakers from the House and Senate" meet behind closed doors,and completely change the bill just passed by our elected represenatives.:shrug:

Who ARE those guys, and who gave them the power to say FUCK YOU to the Senate?

Our system of governance has turned into a very bad joke!

[Jack Rabbit]

41. Kick

!!

[rqstnnlitnmnt]

45. so disgusting nt

[Moderator]

46. duplicte topic, please discuss here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1151465