At Least 22 Die in Iraq in Pre-Poll Violence (at least 8 nat'l guard)

[Robbien]

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Insurgents bent on sabotaging Iraq's Jan. 30 elections unleashed mortars and bombs and opened fire in several cities on Monday, killing at least 22 policemen and soldiers and targeting polling stations.

In the latest kidnapping, the Iraqi Catholic archbishop of Mosul was abducted at gunpoint on Monday in what the Vatican called an act of terrorism.

In Baiji a car bomb exploded at a police headquarters, killing at least 10 people in the oil refining town in the Sunni Muslim heartland north of Baghdad. Witnesses said burned bodies were scattered in a police compound. At least 20 people were wounded, mostly police.

Near Baquba, another guerrilla stronghold northeast of the capital, gunmen opened fire at a checkpoint and killed eight soldiers, a National Guard officer said.

Polling stations came under fire in other cities. A security guard was killed and guerrillas also engaged U.S. troops protecting a school designated for voting.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=7347775

[Downtown Hound]

1. And the fun just keeps on a comin'.

[Pirate Smile]

2. I think it may be 8 Iraqi National Guard not US National Guard. You may

want to change your subject line It isn't completely clear but if it was US, I think that would be the headline. It wouldn't be buried in the story.

[Robbien]

4. Changed, but the picture in another paper were of US troops

But you are right, it doesn't clarify.

The reports are getting so murky it is hard to know anything from them. This article goes on for two pages listing incident after incident where it is hard to know what the scope of the whole thing is.

[Pirate Smile]

9. You are right. The language is ambiguous but if it was US troops,

I think that would be the lead.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. I tell yah them Iraqis are party animals!

All the candy, and flowers... yep especailly those Cemtex flowers... they are a BLAST...

/sarcasm off/

[Inland]

5. Death Count Challenged, Hand Count of Corpses Demanded

[Bouncy Ball]

6. Everytime I read stories like this I think

"Please don't let it be Scott, please don't let it be Scott."

:cry:

[Robbien]

8. Me too, except in my case it is Michael

I hope yours comes home to you as much as I hope mine comes home to us.

[The_Casual_Observer]

7. Sure it's pre poll violence, but it isn't going to be any different

after the poll.

[BeFree]

10. What's with the Iraqi's?

They seem like an awfully violent people, at least some of them. Is it going to take the US forever before all the violent people are dead, and we can leave?

Was SH's way the best way to control these people? It sure seems we are having to be as violent as he was in order to keep the peace. In fact, it seems Iraq had a lot more peace two years ago, and did for at least ten while SH ruled.

Seems as if we stepped right into an ongoing brawl, a brawl that has lasted for centuries, and it will take everything we have, including many more American lives, before peace ever returns, and once we leave, only another SH type will be able to keep the peace.

It don't look good. It looks like a miserable failure, if you ask me.

[Robbien]

11. Most Iraqis are peaceful

But when one's country is occupied, a puppet government is put in place and corruption is rampant (remember $20 Billion is gone out of the oil trust during Bremer). Also for almost two years you see your city deteriorate all the while promises and lies are told to you daily. Your family members are snatched in the night and tortured. Women are not safe in the street.

Then you have open boarders with Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc. through which militants are crossing by the truckload.

Could Iraq have governed itself peacefully if handled correctly in the first place? All the Iraqi bloggers felt it would have been probable. But not now.

[BeFree]

13. So, what will happen?

What is the exit strategy? How long will US troops have to remain? Who will rule, once the US is gone? How many more people will die before peace returns?

I feel for you Robbien, since you have kin over there, and my questions are not pointed at you specifically, they are pointed as a way to frame the dabate about our involvement.

Those questions only the government can answer, and they will be answered only after enough of us demand the answers. As it stands, the issue is slip sliding away into the memory hole, and we must keep the questions at the forefront so as to keep the issue alive.

One question is: What would Iraq be like if we had never invaded? We now know WMD was no reason, so that leaves the freedom of the Iraqis as the remaining cause. Well, if we can show what a miserable failure we have been at that we may make some headway towards more people asking the other questions.

Peace

[Robbien]

14. I have thought on what the future of Iraq may be

I am beginning to think of Iraq as South or Central America and Africa. All the coutries where we used either military might or covert actions to take over the assets of the country. We will continue to control the land through whichever corrupt leader we put in place. Iraqis themselves will get poorer and poorer while all assets are privatized. Peace will not be seen in Iraq again for a long time. (Think Haiti)

It is pretty discouraging but I do not see an alternative future. The World Bank is already making plans to load Iraq with a ton of debt Iraq will not be able to get out from under. Most of the construction happening there right now is happening to build the US military bases. We will not leave there in my lifetime. Iraq will be controlled by either our troops or by violent action of the NGO mercs.

Too many assets have already be sold to corporate elites. We have to protect those interests. We will not leave.

[BeFree]

15. Well then, that's that

But for how long will the American people support such a scheme?

We all saw a similar build-up of the Viet Nam foray, and the ultimate withdrawal, and based on that history, I have hope that we will do the same in Iraq.

As I recall, as more and more fathers and mothers began to bury their children, recently back from Nam, the deep sentiment began to change countrywide.

So, the sooner we begin to gather the voices alerting such an outcome, the sooner we may be able to get our troops home. Might you, having a personal stake in such matters, take it upon yourself to lead?

I, for one, look forward to the day the last hellicopter rises from the roof of the American Embassy in Siagon, er, Baghdad.

[Robbien]

16. The American people will support such a scheme

mainly because they will not know. How much do you know of what is going on in Haiti, Afghanistan? If you are like me, even being the news junkie I am, I know almost nothing. News from Iraq is getting scarce. After the elections we will hear even less. People's attention will go on to the next crisis, because with these guys you know there will be one.

You mention gathering voices and alerting. Sorry, but mainstream alerting avenues are closed to alternative views. Even the alternative voices on the net are starting to be attacked and discredited.

Working on alternative causes for the last five years has become pretty discouraging. Sorry about spreading my doom and gloom around.

[BeFree]

17. I understand

It has been a hard row to hoe. The let downs and defeats are too numerous to mention, and as one examines them, a sense of ultimate defeat does loom. I know.

Still, there are those who will pay a much higher price for the actions than we ever will, so it behooves us to continue to move forward, against seemingly insurmountable odds, to help those poor souls in the crosshairs to be able to duck the bullets coming their way.

We need leaders. We need those with a personal stake in the outcome to lead the rest of us against that dark and foreboding mountain. You seem to have some leadership abilities and have a personal stake, but if you decide not too, I understand. Peace.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Again I sugest

people read the history of the British colonial experience in the last century. Vietnam, though a familiar model to us... is not apropriate... it will take time... longer than Nam, or possibly shorter... it really depends whether we have a "tet Offensive moment" which in this case would be the fall of 1920, or the summer of 1954...

The law of history is clear, Empires rise and fall, and we are now on the down slope

[BeFree]

19. Nadin,

Your point is well taken here. It is my belief that we will continue to be a miserable failure right up to the time the last helicopter leaves Baghdad. The sooner the better.

We are not welcome there, just as the Brits weren't either. History will repeat, and Empires do fall. In the meantime whatever innocent lives we can save, so much the better, eh?

[Robbien]

21. Not ignoring your suggestion,

But before the invasion I researched the history of Iraq/British experience and thought it possible history may repeat itself here again, eventually.

Not sure what I believe will happen with all the major players though. This time around we have the global elites who do not belong to any one country. This time around, when we fall we will take many of the other power players with us, i.e. China, Russia and Japan, leaving global elites in play.

Then there are the factors of how much longer we will be able to hold our empire together and what the global elites intend to do after the fall.

[lawladyprof]

20. While we can't know for sure what Iraq would have been like

if we hadn't invaded. A whole bunch of people who now are dead would have been alive.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. You should read any good and ciomprehensive

history of the British occupation of Iraq from 1919 all the way to iirc 1955 when they finally said, ENOUGH!

It will illuniate much of this violence and put it in real context...

What is going on is not that diffent than the summer of 1920... though this particular summer is lasting a lot longer.