Homeless Vietnam veteran freezes under bridge

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.wtvq.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WTVQ/MGArticle/TVQ_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031780316578&path=

Action News 36
Jan 18, 14:21 PM EST

A Vietnam veteran who froze to death alone beneath a railroad bridge on Christmas Eve is remembered in Covington. Joe Young died in single-digit cold a few blocks from a shelter where he had previously stayed and a few days before he was to move into an apartment that had been arranged for him. The Reverend Gregg Anderson of Highland Heights says friends and strangers contributed a total of $2,100 to make sure Young had a decent burial. Joe Young was 57-years old.

[UrbScotty]

1. Thanks to our 'Pro-life' President

:eyes:

[ClarkUSA]

34. Pro-Birth -- time to reframe phrases to fight the culture war better

[goddess40]

39. YES< YES< YES

and I mean to shout. We should never let it go when someone says Pro-life without correcting it to Pro-birth or anti-choice. I'm tired of that lie and we shouldn't let them tell it without calling them on it.

[LiviaOlivia]

57. I prefer "Forced Pregnancy"

eom

[Massachusetts]

2. Rest in peace Brother

O8)

[Redstone]

33. Amen.

Go easy, friend.

Redstone

[Solly Mack]

3. remind me why I love America

someone? anyone?

I know love can hurt....afterall, those you love are the ones that can hurt you the most.... but there are times when the pain just gets to be too much

[ingasm]

6. What the hell?

Keep that back turned America.

[Solly Mack]

13. That's the problem...America turns her back on her own people

Not all Americans...but far too many.

Bushbots expecially are prone to turning their backs on America. :)

[Terran]

59. Had an argument about homelessness before the election

with a really awful Bushie. When that subject came up, his initial response was, "Homelessness? That's so 80's. There aren't any homeless people anymore." A lot of America isn't just turning its back...it's deluded itself.

[Solly Mack]

60. I agree. Lots of denial out there

It wasn't just this story today, but a few others as well, that wounded me deeply. My country, a country I love, and love so much it hurts, is headed in the wrong direction. I swear at times I feel "battered"....if that makes any sense.

[Joe Chi Minh]

62. Watching an instalment

of Three Rocks from the Sun, mainly on the theme of Thanksgiving, I couldn't help thinking of the bitter irony of what the homeess families and lonely individuals must think on that day.

Don't think I'm knocking Thanksgiving. I think it's a wonderful thing. There isn't a higher form of prayer than thanksgiving and praise. In the UK, post-Christian cynicism is now the order of the day. No bitterness or railing, just indifference and ever-growing ignorance. And after enjoying a welfare state that lasted decades, now our homeless are everywhere, and our winters can be so bleak. I think yours, too. London used to be mocked as "Cardboard City", but you can't keep bitter indignation on the front burner all the time, (any more than we should ever lose it all together), or you would go mad. Most of the time, I can't bear to read more than the daily headlines.

[yinkaafrica]

7. Because we would have helped him had we been able to

There are still a lot of good people here.

[Solly Mack]

11. Yes, some people would have helped him and did

Thank you!

[youngdem]

49. Helping our own

Yes, there are still good people left in the united states. It is a shame with all of the money going to "free" the Iraqi's that this country's so called "leader" can not help our own citizenry.Where is the public outrage?

[jobycom]

24. Because that's not America.

That's Reaganville, or Bushville, or Gingrichville. Blame them. America believes that all are created equal, that all are endowed with the inalienable rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, that even dogs deserve better treatment than what Republicans give human beings.

That was Republicanism, not America. The two are polar opposites.

[Solly Mack]

37. Thank you

[madmax]

4. Too little, too late

I'm sure Joe Young doesn't give a rats ass about a 'decent burial'. Someone should have thought to give him some money to stay in a motel or something - he wouldn't need a burial. :mad:

[happyslug]

14. Read the Article

Basically the same people who arranged his burial had arranged for an apartment for him. He was between homes, an not unknown situation in today's world. When Cold Weather strikes Homeless shelters tend to fill up and such shelters tend to favor women with children over men without children(and tend to favor men with children over Women without children).

Could someone have done something? Probably, but what? Hotels are expensive and most organizations set up to help the homeless prefer to find PERMANENT solution to the homelessness (i.e. an apartment) than a temporary solution (a hotel room). As long as we Americans REFUSE to fund housing for such people you will have homeless people dieing in the streets. I can not blame the people who paid for the Funeral, but I can blame the system that requires people to sleep in the street for there is no place else for them to sleep.

[EC]

27. And not one of those that helped him

get the apartment could put him up for a few days, even on the floor? Come on -

[TahitiNut]

28. The result of corporatist thinking.

It's a well-known "rule of thumb" that you get 80% of the result from 20% of the spending, and the remaining 20% of the result from 80% of the spending. To build a 'safety net' that catches 100% of those who fall costs five times as much as one that catches 80% of those who fall.

How much is a life worth? How much is a frozen-to-death veteran worth? How much is a starving child worth?

It's economically axiomatic in any enterprise that excess capacity (unused on any day) is an expense without offsetting revenue/benefit - i.e. a "loss." Thus, it's completely in the nature of any bean-counted organization to build capacity solely to the sustainable 'market' and no further. This means, in any 'safety net' enterprise, that many are guaranteed to miss the net and hit the concrete. Splat!

The question we must ask ourselves is: is the sole 'good' of such an enterprise measured in cost-effectiveness? How about the 'good' of people employed? How about the 'good' of flexibility?


If you think this is something neocons can't comprehend, then why do they insist on having a military that's hugely over-capacity? When it comes to dollars lining their pockets, they don't seem to mind.

[Lisa]

82. very clearly explained, TahitiNut

Resilience, flexibility, and anything intended to accommodate possible overflow or disasters that might happen is "useless overspending" which is just asking to be cut!

In that mindset, a warning network for a flood or tsunami that MIGHT happen once in the next century is a wasteful expenditure. Setting up an emergency neighbourhood shelter in case there's a heatwave and people's air conditioning fails -- something that would have saved lives in Chicago several summers ago -- is "inefficient" since it would likely only benefit a few impoverished old people who are a drain on Social Security anyway. And proper building codes and zoning laws which might protect people are not just hindering development, but are depressing the economy because once they are aware of the dangers of building on a faultline or a floodplain, for some reason consumers don't want to buy houses there.

But if a tobacco company has a slew of lawyers on retainer in case they get sued -- that's only prudent, you know.

[BrklynLiberal]

5. That is one of the saddest stories I have read in a long, long time...

;(

[StClone]

10. That's what I was thinking

Go to war get home and freeze to death, alone in the country you fought for. And Bush marches on.

[saigon68]

53. THe AWOL CHIMPANZEE bush is a war criminal

And I attribute this death to Bush the War criminal whose VA should have been helping this ex soldier.

[wtmusic]

8. Many, many more living like that right now n/t

[bobthedrummer]

9. So many Vietnam vets are crazy or in jail-institutionalized or homeless.

:cry:

[wicket]

15. it's a brutal cycle

They can't afford their medications to stay sane because the VA doesn't give a shit, and in turn they cannot hold a job because of their untreated mental illness and end up homeless because they can't hold a job. Sigh. :cry:

[newblewtoo]

36. Got some proof of that?

I am sick of hearing this psycho babble crap. Nam vets are no more screwed up than their WW I, WW II, or Korean vets were. Try reading "Stolen Valor" by Burkett an Whitley, it will open your eyes. Wild accusations are a continuing 'dis' service to all who served in Viet Nam (including John Kerry and John Mc Cain just to mention a couple). If you are anti war fine say so, protest, whatever but do it without repeating the tired meme of 'screwed up homeless baby killers'.

[goddess40]

40. time has pointed out the Nam was faought for nothing

and I believe that must be harder to live with the fact that they killed people for a lie instead of a valid reason. (Is there a valid reason?)
These men get next to nothing from the gov't they served and bush means to see that they get even less.

[Joe Chi Minh]

64. He seems to personify

a whole new slant on the term "psycho babble", doesn't he? No proof is ever going to get through that skull of his. Motive, justification, is crucial, particularly when the harm wrought is so extreme.

You'd think anyone with an IQ of 50+ would understand that, but these are matters perceptible only to the heart, not the worldly intelligence. ("Aaah, the bleeding heart syndrome...", do I can hear him mutter?) None so blind as those that will not see.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ashmanonar]

63. wow, so bc he has 10 posts, he's not as worthy as someone with 1000+?

that's kinda arbitrary, don't you think? what happened to "innocent until proven guilty?" doesn't he deserve the benefit of the doubt?

although i don't personally agree that vets make up their mental conditions, he at least deserves a chance to express his opinion.

on edit: RIP Joe Young. i hope he finds the afterlife better than this one.

[Joe Chi Minh]

66. His words

prove his guilt. I thought they were kinda arbitrary.

He doesn't need witnesses for the proseccution. He makes a fine job of it himself. Scalia, watch out!

[ashmanonar]

69. it wasn't that his opinion was

not to your liking, it was that most of your post was "9 posts, I see you are ahistorical and ignorant-"...

you didn't actually try to rebut his statement, just derided his being a "newb" (a term i HATE HATE HATE HATE). if you had rebutted what he said, in a logical and rational manner, i wouldn't have any problem, indeed, wouldn't have any right to protest the way you responded. the fact that you attacked the messenger instead of the message is what bothered me.

please try to keep this place calm and rational, the last thing anyone needs is histrionics or emotional posts. i'd hate to see it debate the message, not the messenger.


(and no, i'm not a mod, i just like a lively and rational discussion, not one filled with deleted posts and vitriol.)

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ashmanonar]

84. well, so much for a rational and logical discussion

thanks for claiming to know me and my opinion on things, BTW. :grr:

i actually don't agree with his opinion, but who am i to say if he can express it or not? isn't that the definition of freedom of speech? that noone can prevent you from expressing a debate, but only rebut your opinion?

oh, and again you attack the messenger instead of the message "ugly and picayune"...

[Joe Chi Minh]

80. He's

probably not even as worthy as some with three posts!

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

46. Interesting...

Did you know that people who bought "Stolen Valor" also bought:

America in Vietnam Guenter Lewy
Where We Were in Vietnam: A Comprehensive Guide to the Firebases, Military Installations and Naval Vessels of the Vietnam War, 1945-1975 Michael P. Kelley
(These next three made me laugh)
"Unfit for Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry" by John E. O'Neill, Jerome R. Corsi
"The French Betrayal of America" by Kenneth R. Timmerman
"In Defense of Internment: The Case for Racial Profiling in World War II and the War on Terror" by Michelle Malkin
(Edited for clarity)

According to Barnes and Nobel.com's website, that is. Interesting company this book and it's readers keep. The book has been extensively praised by Newsmax.com, WorldNetDaily, and TownHall.com. Not exactly the bastion of truth over there, is it?

[newblewtoo]

48. No I didn't know that...

Thank you for pointing that out. The copy right on "Stolen Valor" is 1998 so I did not see it as a 'political' work. I have not read any of the other books you mentioned so I cannot comment on them. I prefer to read things for my self and make my own decisions. I don't pay much attention to News,World,or Townhall.com so I guess I missed them too.

[KDLarsen]

95. Sorry, I just HAD to see what Amazon had on the anti-French book

.. and I've gotta say that it sounds like a fucking hilarious read. That & its sibling "France: Americas Oldest Enemy".

[youngdem]

50. Vietnam vets

Did I hear anyone say " screwed up homeless baby killers"? I think not.

[Straight Shooter]

65. No one said that. You are correct.

I like someone who can get right to the point and poke a hole in someone's inflammatory argument.

Welcome to DU :hi:

[oneighty]

74. Good book

I have an autographed copy.

However good the book is one cannot help but notice that the writers do have a bit of a right wing bias.

You would agree?

180

[Matilda]

89. The vets of WWI, WWII and Korea were screwed up too.

It's just that post-traumatic stress syndrome wasn't recognised
back then, so it wasn't dealt with. Yes, those vets tried to "get
on with it", and some succeeded, but all bore the scars.

My father-in-law was a guest of the Japanese during WWII, captured
at Singapore, and when he and other survivors came back and tried
to tell their stories, nobody would believe them, because they
couldn't imagine such cruelty. So the men just clammed up.

Many of them became ill later on from the effects of mustard gas,
and many suffered nightmares all through their lives, even while
apparently coping on the surface. Many became alcoholics. Others
suffered physically in later life from the effects of their
imprisonment - my father-in-law's legs became very weak, as a result
of working for years in rice paddies, up to his knees in water. Like
many others, he lived a "normal" life, but the damage was on the
inside.

The men who fight for us are generally ordinary, suburban young men
who are suddenly expected to go out and kill. There is no way that
what they see and what they have to do is not going to have an
effect on them.

[ashmanonar]

92. i'm sure that if you went back in time to the

romans, or greeks, or whoever...their soldiers were damaged and probably lonely people, who had seen way too much combat and went "crazy", so to speak...PTSD has always affected soldiers, i'd bet. it's a shock to go from one environment where they can kill any enemy, anyone who is not on their side and then go to some environment where killing is against the law...plus the shock and terror of combat.

only the name is new, the symptoms are old.

and we've never figured out what we can do for these vets.

[Megahurtz]

77. Not "crazy" though,

it's called Post Traumatic stress (PTSD) There are very severe forms of this, and some not as severe.

[DS1]

12. $2100 is how many month's rent and food?

Idiots and their stupid priorities.

[happyslug]

20. Depends on the area

In my area that is about year rent in a low end room. In Covington KY? 3 months? Furthermore how much of this is $5-10 dollar donations or in kind donation (i.e. provide the casket for free)? Many of the same people who donated for his funeral would also donated for funding for the homeless but a $5 dollar donation spread over hundreds of people may only be a nickle a homeless person. At that rate not enough to solve the problem of homelessness. This article does not truly address the problem of how to solve the problem of Homelessness for once you do you realize you need to speed money and that requires raising taxes. Remember for every homeless person who dies on the street you may have 100 surviving the cold. Should we spend the money on X for we think he will die as opposed to Y who we think can survive a few days sleeping in the cold? Sometime it is a choice as to who will die..... (i.e. you only have funding for so many beds, once filled everyone else is one they own).

My point here is do not criticize their givers choice to give for a funeral unless you have been there and had to choice who will sleep in a shelter and who will not. Many of the givers gave in recognition that they made a bad choice, he should have stayed in the shelter and someone should have been sent out into the street (or maybe either person would have died given the cold snap). I can not fault them and I will praise them for the Funeral brought the issue of the homeless to someone's attention, way more than the mere fact the victim died.

[DS1]

22. My point is the money would have been much more valuable to him

when he was around to see it spent.

I'm not saying he doesn't deserve a nice funeral, I think most everyone does ( although there are some in certain parts of goverment I'd rather see thrown in a ditch and left to rot ).

[happyslug]

41. My point was the people who gave the money for the Funeral

Gave the same or more for his apartment he was to have and for the homeless shelter. Lets not belittle them for giving, lets belittle those who did nothing.

[mrbassman03]

71. Great point...

Giving in all forms is something to be looked up to.

[TahitiNut]

16. For God's sake, cremate me!

If anyone finds my body frozen to death under a bridge, it's too damned late to spend money on it! Use that money to keep some other poor slob from freezing! A Hefty Sack is just fine as far as I'm concerned. Hell, feed the fishes!

[DemBones DemBones]

52. Cremation isn't a cost-free service, you know.

In fact, I recently read of a cremation that cost TWICE what this burial did.

It's cheapest if you belong to a Cremation Society and pay in advance for your future cremation.

Another thing to consider is that not everyone wants to be cremated; some people hate the very idea of it.

[mrbassman03]

72. I know my Dad wants to be dumped at sea...

Not really sure of the reasons, but it sounds like a great idea aside from being completely illegal.

[oneighty]

79. Not illegal

Any honorably discharged veteran and his wife and children are entitled to be buried at sea from the deck of a US Navy ship of the line. There are requirements as to how the coffin must be configured to sink readily. Cremains can be more easily just be tossed over the side.

Later visitations are out of the question however. Burial at sea takes place beyond the one hundred fathom curve.

PM me if you need information.

180

[nookiemonster]

75. You speak the truth!

There is no way in hell that I'm going to force my family, or anybody, to shell out that kind of cash due to my passing. I'm a vet, but it's still money that could be spent on people to, at the least, keep them alive. Well, maybe not in Bushworld. You know what I mean.

Throw me in the ocean, sharks will take care of the rest.

Just my $0.02

[TahitiNut]

81. As a scuba diver, I can think of no better use for my carcass.

Of over 100 open ocean dives, I've thrilled at the beauty, grace, and efficiency of sharks ... and a host of other scavenger fish. It'd be perfect 'payback' as far as I'm concerned, to return my sushi-eating carcass to those who've hosted many of my happiest times.

[nookiemonster]

85. Well put!

The circle of life, indeed!

I really doubt if I'll leave a legacy, but unlike the shrub, I do care about what happens in the future after I'm gone. :+

[shanti]

91. i look at it this way:

we're mostly salt water, so i want to go back where we originally came from....;-) cremated or otherwise.

[Justitia]

17. "Support The Troops!" - uh, at least get a car magnet at WalMart - eom

[jobycom]

23. Bingo. Republican dogs don't mean "Support our troops," they mean

"Support whatever we want to do." The troops are just things for them to use, then abandon, like they do their spouses and children.

[mrbassman03]

73. Hahaha, I never really thought about it...

These people go out and buy a magnet/sticker to "support the troops". Yeah, I suppose soldiers think to themselves, over their one meal a day, "I'm glad I have cheerleaders back home!"

[cshldoc]

18. "Welcome home"

N/M

[DemoTex]

19. Welcome home, brother.

Things will be better now, Joe. You have already seen hell on earth. RIP.

[Whoa_Nelly]

21. Joe Young is the coming tide of returning Iraq vets

eom

[GoldenOldie]

25. The local Regional VA Medical Center when questioned

If they have received any Iraqi wounded, they stated that they are in the pipeline but they are unprepared for the walking wounded....the brain injuries and the mental trauma which is in the thousands.

Do you think any of the CONS give a rats ass?????

[atreides1]

29. I Think It Will Get Worse

I predict that the VA budget will be cut for the next fiscal year.

[d.l.Green]

35. And the Iraq veterans will be the

"baby boomer" population of under served veterans. A sure fire future crisis...

[VegasWolf]

26. Hey, doncha know that homeless shelters cost money and after

the Iraq fiasco there is nothing left over for home. maybe
bush could pay halliburton to start building shelters here.

[Joe Chi Minh]

67. Kerry's got the only answer

for both our countries. Regeneration of medium and heavy manufacturing industry, full employment and proper remuneration for labour.

It will mean shifting much more of the tax burden from the middle classes to the highest earners, and restoration of the tax on companies to the levels of the golden years. Blasphemy to this lot.

Many saints and popes have stated that God made the world for ALL his children (and least of all, Christ seems to say, for the greedy and rapacious hypocrites, who tend to run it, and whose life he will suddenly require of them, when he falls upon them like a thief in the night). The only people Christ referred to as "fools" in his Gospels; a term he normally anathematized.

[genieroze]

30. Wait and see what happen when our king is crowned and they have

to throw all the homeless people out of DC for his coronation. We can't have the world seeing the real Murika now can we?

[Southpaw Bookworm]

31. They already have thrown out the homeless

See http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2971515&mesg_id=2971515

[NYC]

32. And some homeless will go unfed

because of the inauguration. I'm sure the champagne will be flowing for Bush and friends.

[d_b]

38. I wonder how many Joe Young's

are in Iraq right now.

[me b zola]

42. ...and my heart breaks a little more

:cry:

[Vidar]

43. I wish the vets and active soldiers in the US would wake up &

fight the real war on terrorism--against the villain in the white house.

[TahitiNut]

44. That's "The People's" job.

How about let's not pile any more on the backs of the military, huh?

[Vidar]

47. No longer having the right to an actual vote the people are almost

helpless in the hands of this tyrant.

[jasop]

83. Absolutely Agree n/t

[ckramer]

51. Anyone died alone beneath a railroad bridge is a national shame

[DemBones DemBones]

54. It's unfair to blame others for this man's choice to sleep under a

bridge in single-digit weather.

Homeless shelters may not be ideal but they do keep people from freezing to death in their sleep. Some homeless people refuse to stay in shelters, though.

Most DUers would oppose institutionalizing the homeless who prefer sleeping outdoors to sleeping in a shelter, so what's the answer?

[jmm]

55. Does anybody know if there was room in the shelter?

It seems odd to me that he would agree to previously stay in a shelter and agree to have an apartment arranged for him but decide a few days before moving he wanted to spend a single digit night on the streets.

[DemBones DemBones]

70. I don't think it's odd behavior for a homeless person -- don't

think it's unusual for them to stay in shelters at one point and then later refuse to. And they may have good reasons for not wanting to sleep in a shelter.

I'd think the report would have noted if the shelter had been full.

My point is to ask this: if a homeless person chooses to sleep under a bridge and dies as a result of his choice, what should society have done to prevent it?

Should the homeless be rounded up and forced to sleep in shelters? Should they be tied to their cots?

We all agree, I think, that more could be done for the poor and homeless -- more can always be done. But when shelters are available, what is society's responsibility to those who refuse to stay in the shelters? Perhaps, to improve the shelters. But can shelters ever be made acceptable to all the homeless?

[mrbassman03]

76. Maybe prevent homelessness?

I think that is the goal, instead of "dealing" with the homeless.

[AngryOldDem]

88. The trouble is, though, there will always be those who choose

to live on the streets. There are several in my city who choose to set up a tent city in some woods by the river. Every so often, the cops and social service agencies come in -- the cops tear down their tents and the services offer help -- but as soon as they leave the tents go back up.

Some just refuse to go to shelters, for many reasons. Some are mentally ill. The best the social service agencies can do is to just keep in contact with them, and give them -- or more appropriately offer them -- the help that they need.

You can't penalize people for the decisions they make for themselves. But you can always be there, ready to help, when they need it.

[mrbassman03]

93. And that is all we can do, exactly as you put it...

Good wording by the way.

[il_lilac]

90. I've been told

this winter homeless shelters in my area are turning away 15-20 people on some nights because of lack of space. He may not have had a choice.

[Joe Chi Minh]

68. See my post, #67.

A country with full an properly paid employment for all, will have the resources and the decency to care for the victims of previous Government's' wickedness.

[Catfight]

56. The shoe print of Sean Hannity found on the dead man's back. nt

[zann725]

58. Chilling...'life imitating art.' TV's "West Wing" did an episode on this.

...where a veteran who was wearing an old coat that Tobey donated to charity, ended up freezing to death on a park bench in (I think) Lafayette Park. It was a touching episode...in the way a lot of Veterans end up discarded and homeless.

[Ilsa]

87. One of their best ever episodes, "In Excelsis Deo"

it was a Christmas epi, Mrs. Landingham talked of her sons getting killed in Vietnam, the choir was singing The Little Drummer Boy.


I wish I could remember the exchange between Toby and Pres Bartlett near the end, where Bartlett says something about having to do that for everyone...and Toby replies...

[NorthernSpy]

61. why our fate is sealed

If

A dog starv'd at his Master's Gate
Predicts the ruin of the State.

then what does a war veteran allowed to freeze to death under a bridge portend?

Rest in Peace, Joe Young.



(William Blake, Auguries of Innocence)

[American Tragedy]

86. One out of every three homeless men is a veteran, according to NCH

Despite the fact that there are far more WWII and Korean War veterans in America, homeless veterans are overwhelmingly servicemen of the Vietnam and post-Vietnam era. More than 75% of them suffer from alcohol, drug or mental health problems, including PTSD.

What in God's name has gone wrong with this country?

[leesa]

94. Damn. This is so sad. Is this the future the Fundie Republicans

promise their warriors?

[BikeWriter]

96. We lost another Brother Vet. Thanks, everyone, for honoring him.

:(

[BikeWriter]

97. Duplicate post