Mix of Quake Aid and Preaching Stirs Concern -NYT

[Rose Siding]

A dozen Americans walked into a relief camp here, showering bereft parents and traumatized children with gifts, attention and affection. They also quietly offered camp residents something else: Jesus.

The Americans, who all come from one church in Texas, have staged plays detailing the life of Jesus and had children draw pictures of him, camp residents said. They have told parents who lost children that they should still believe in God, and held group prayers where they tried to heal a partly paralyzed man and a deaf 12year-old girl.
The attempts at proselytizing are angering local Christian leaders, who worry that they could provoke a violent backlash against Christians in Sri Lanka, a predominantly Buddhist country that is already a religious tinderbox.
...
The Rev. Sarangika Fernando, a local Methodist minister, witnessed one of the prayer sessions in Sri Lanka and accused the Americans of acting unethically with traumatized people. "They said, 'In the name of Jesus, she must be cured!' " he said. "As a priest, I was really upset."...

The Antioch Community Church is one of a growing number of evangelical groups that believe in mixing aidgiving with discussing religion, an approach that older, more established Christian aid groups like Catholic Relief Services call unethical.

http://nytimes.com/2005/01/22/international/worldspecial4/22preach.html?hp&ex=1106370000&en=0d4c57b3a583fd37&ei=5094&partner=homepage

[bluestateguy]

1. I think what happens to them should be their responsibility

I think our State Department should make it crystal clear that these proselytizers do not speak for the United States. Furthermore, if the locals get angry and decide to take matters into their own hands to deal with the proselytizers in their own way, we should make it clear that we will not be sending American troops to Asia to save their lily white butts.

[Rose Siding]

3. Up to 7% of the population is Christian

according to a quote in the article. That's a lot of people placed in peril because of these yahoos. State should yank their visas and let them cry persecution. It may save lives. But of course they won't.

[DBoon]

2. The Sri Lanka goverment should yank their visas

and send these people back to where they came, before they generate more hatred for Americans than they already have.

[Jamastiene]

5. Agreed

They are like vultures.

[Cheswick2.0]

6. I agree

I played with the idea of trying to organize DU to send e-mails to the government there and warn them not to let these people into the country. But I figured that DUers couldn't be bothered, why waste the energy.

[VALibby]

128. I'm parking here.

the actions of these "christians" is disgusting.

[Wilms]

4. Trauma Victim = Evangelical Prey

[Jawja]

7. This is why the

"Faith Based" federal aid to religious organizations is a bad idea. Along with the hot soup or the bed for the night comes the preaching and the pressure.

I would rather see my tax dollars go to secular humanitarian efforts where it is most likely to be spent as intended - to help people. I don't like my tax dollars going to religious institutions to help them spread their "message" along with the aid. Let non-taxed religious institutions fund their own aid.

[Solly Mack]

8. Oh gawds..Ernest Angsley Hee-ul! Hee-ul!

blech

opportunistic..predatory..just plain wrong.

[Mockingbird]

9. Evangelical Prey

Helping out is great, but what the hell is going on?

You KNOW that if one of these evangelical missionaries get cooked in a pot, or something - "we" (George & the frog in his pocket) will march in there, or at least find a way to punish the government for show.

Billy Graham Jr sent a "crusade" into Afghanistan (or was it Iraq) immediately. Instituting a proselytizing Christian Taliban of sorts.
Is Antioch one of those who believes that all Jews needs to return to middle east for the Rapture to come? The name is familiar.

This is actually a serious consequence of "faith-based" charity which tolerates proselytizing.
Its nothing new, just far more brazen seen probably since the Conquistadors marched to "save" the Native American population while stealing their gold. It shows no respect for any indigenous faiths, or lack of one.

This is also a serious consequence of a failed inept "CEO" in the white house: the idea that they are buying goodwill for America. How arrogant can any one regime BE?

It sounds precisely like some evangelical tent shows I've attended.
God will pay you back tenfold - so empty your pockets into the collection plate to buy all the Lord's goodwill you can afford.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

10. It appears many here think faith is a switch

That you can turn on or off. It isn't. It's part of who you are and EVERYTHING you do, including relief efforts.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

22. I'm not in Indonesia

But any people of faith who bring aid should not be expected to be silent either. If Indonesians don't want aid from people of faith, they should say so.

[Misunderestimator]

28. "If Indonesians don't want aid from people of faith, they should say so"

HOLY CRAP!!! I can't believe that even YOU would say a thing like that? Is that a CHRISTIAN principle?

[Solly Mack]

32. Apparently to some it is

it's basically saying if you want our aid, you'll take our preaching...yeah, you can tell the real motive now. It ain't the helping part either.

[mutus_frutex]

144. Obviously, helping is not the priority.

These people don't give shit about what happens to others in "this" world.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

60. Don't expect people to change

I tried that with my ex and I learned an awful lesson. We are who we are. So, if my neighbor shovels the snow off my walk today, he might be the same guy who makes rude comments when I suntan in the back yard. You take people as they are or don't take them at all.

[Just Me]

69. We are who we choose to be. If we choose to impose our religion on others

and threaten to withhold assistance to those in need unless they allow us to impose our religion,...then, we are being tyrants.

If you believe we should take people as they are,...then, you would advocate that these "crusaders" stop imposing their religion upon others under the auspice of providing assistance to those in need.

Doncha' think? :shrug:

[AliciaKeyedUp]

82. Talking about religion is not imposing it

They don't have the power to impose their religion.

[knitter4democracy]

103. No, but if they have aid supplies, that changes the dynamic.

If a missionary goes into a region like Sri Lanka after the tsunami, holding basic, needed supplies but makes people listen to their "pitch" first before receiving them, that person has probably hurt the Faith. How could someone go along with receiving needed supplies and not feel pressed to convert? They made the kids color pictures of Jesus, for crying out loud! What if a parent walked up and said that they didn't want that happening? Would the missionaries have taken away the supplies? There's that threat because of the imbalance of power. Don't put parents in that position.

[FighttheFuture]

141. This is preaching under duress, it is not a free and clear discussion.

That's the way it usually is, isn't it? When people are satisfied and content in their lives, spciety, country, why would need Jesus, the boogie-man, or whomever?

I suspect part of driving this country into the gutter is it will make the fanatical christian's fairy tales of Jesus (switch or be condemmed to hell forever) all that much more appealing to those who have no hope.

Great plan, real "Christian" of them. Too bad for the world that they cannot walk the walk they continually talk.

[mutus_frutex]

145. They are not imposing it, they are selling it.. :-) nt

[Solly Mack]

29. They should examine their motives for bringing aid then

if it's to help people in need, then preaching isn't needed....if it's to preach, then don't bother hiding behind the offer of aid.

Taking advantage of people in dire need is pretty low.

People can cloak their motives in all the gospel they want to, but it won't change the fact that they are just trying to get people in a weakened state to convert to their way of thinking.

You can shine your light without extinguishing someone else's. When you attempt to impose your religion on a people that already have a religion you're trying to turn out their light.

You wouldn't like it if people did the same to you.

[ldf]

38. their whole modus operandi (spelling?) is the "weakened state"

that is what it is all about.

get them while they don't have the mental capacity to reason.

brainwash them, so that when the DO regain some sense of stability the brainwashing has taken hold.

all these people you see "born again"? a huge percentage were at a major low point in their life, at which they were so desperate they decided to go the almighty blind faith route.

and then they go an attack others in the same condition. they are parasites.

sick people, preying on desperate people.

maybe the tsunami victims just want a little compassion, a little food, a little clothing, and some help to get back on their feet.

what if there was a major natural disaster here in the u.s., one so bad that we desperately needed help from other countries.

and they came with aid, but only if we would convert to hinduism, buddhism, islam?

do you not think we would respond with complete outrage at their tactics???

[Solly Mack]

39. Exactly!

They would bitch to high heaven if someone else did that to them.

[AgadorSparticus]

59. ldf, you hit that square on the head. WELL SAID!!!

[rockedthevoteinMA]

129. Exactly! Thank you for stating that ldf.

Unfortunately it is these types that turn most of the rest of the population off from christainity as a whole.

*I* witnessed a friend of mine fall completely into their trap (a drug/alcohol rehab) and it painful to see what it has done to her.

However I have the ability to see that not all Christians are like that- it took me a while to come to that realization, because after having her and a few others witnessing to me for months on end...and hearing their gaybashing, etc. I was able to see through it for what it really was.

It made me sad to know this is acceptable to so many, because bigotry is unacceptable in anyway, and hiding it behind the bible is worse.

Jesus did not teach people to take advantage of those in these positions, to brainwash, and manipulate. These people need to re - read the bible to find out his true message.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

61. Christian charities

Have aided people for hundreds of years.

They aim to help people. But you must think we want to hide who we are out of sight. That doesn't happen.

[54anickel]

97. Absolutely, and the article makes mention of these Christian charities

that have aided people for hundreds of years. No, they do not hide who they are out of sight, but they also do not attempt to convert.

Curious,did you even read the article?

snip>

Older Christian aid groups like Catholic Relief Services, Lutheran World Relief and others with religious affiliations say they do not proselytize, abiding by Red Cross guidelines that humanitarian aid not be used to further political or religious purposes. Ken Hackett, president of Catholic Relief Services, said that in the last 20 years there had been an increase of smaller Christian evangelical groups providing relief aid in the wake of disaster.

"I think there are new groups that are driven by missionary zeal," Mr. Hackett said. In the last several weeks, Mr. Hackett said, his group has received anecdotal reports of proselytizing in countries devastated by the tsunami.

"From our partners in India, Sri Lanka and Indonesia we've heard that there have been instances when American and other Christian groups have been proselytizing and casting aspersions on the faith of people there," he said. "Some of these groups raise questions about other faiths, saying that people would be better off if they converted to Christianity immediately."

Several American evangelical aid groups have arrived in Sri Lanka, but no reports of proselytizing by those groups have emerged, according to Sri Lankan church officials. The Rev. Franklin Graham, the son of the evangelist Billy Graham, visited Sri Lanka this week to encourage the workers of his evangelical aid organization, Samaritan's Purse, who plan to work in Sri Lanka for the next five years.

snip>

Members of Mr. Graham's group said they did not engage in proselytizing, but said if local Christians wanted to build a church they would help them. Officials from World Relief, the aid wing of the National Association of Evangelicals, have said in interviews that they try to first build trust with local people and then look for opportunities for conversions, in some cases years later.

[knitter4democracy]

105. I studied in Russia in fall of 1995, and I can tell you stories . . .

Evangelical and Pentecostal missionaries flew into Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union in droves in order to convert the atheists. The things they said and did often bordered on immoral and wrong. Eastern Orthodox Christians, who'd stayed true to the Faith all those years, were told that they were going to hell because they weren't the right kind of Christians. One missionary bought souvenirs of WWII and the Cold War off of vets selling their medals and all on the streets, only to turn around and sell them in the States for a huge markup, making a fortune that never saw the people in need. One missionary I knew never learned Russian, even after being there for seven years.

That kind of stuff led to making proselytizing illegal in Russia. And people wonder why we Christians are hated . . .

[54anickel]

113. Yep, there are many types of missionaries and charity groups. Some

do wonderous works, allowing there works alone to do the "talking" and "witnessing" of their faith. Then there are others who proselytize, and anger and confuse their "converts".

My ex had an uncle that was a missionary in South America for years, telling folks they weren't the "right" type of Christian. Having people give up their livelihood of selling cigarettes or alcohol out of fear of eternal damnation. They'd head into a village, slap together a church, convert as many as possible then, patting themselves on the back for a job well done they'd move on to the next village.

Fool could never understand why the suicide rates in the villages he touched were so damned high. :eyes:

My mother was born and raised in Indonesia. She witnessed much of the same there. She never had much use for missionaries - her experiences growing up left her very skeptical to say the least. About 15 years ago or so, she and Dad found a new church in FL which supported a lot of missionaries. She let that pastor know her thoughts right off the bat! She got to meet a few of them and discuss their mission work. That's when she was convinced that not ALL missionaries are bad and out to convert the world. This church leaned more toward the Interfaith teachings.

[knitter4democracy]

120. I'm glad she found a good place for her to worship

It was hard for me, especially after seeing things firsthand. I can't say the Orthodox Church is perfect, far from it, but the mission work is done more gently. For example, here in the States, we formed the charity organization before the mission organization, and the IOCC still gets more money, which is as it should be, I think.

There are many missionaries out there doing good work who are truly helping people and treading the line very carefully. Personal experience tells me that this church's team had at least a couple of those in it who were very upset about how things went but were outvoted. I hope that at least some good was done and not very much evil.

[mutus_frutex]

I've seen the effects in some south american countries too..

These guys are despicable. They use the hard economic situation to lure people to their churches (with pie in the sky promises). They also play a lot with the possibility of getting people legally into the US. This is specially true of the mormons.

[Harry S Truman]

131. And they have...

burned people at the stake for longer than they helped them.
news flash: there is no imaginary bearded being in the sky, friends. people help people. people reach out to people. people do all the good and bad. these people need help, not preaching a totalitarian, authoritarian, unscientific "faith."

[Hoping4Change]

76. I really resent your continuing to use "people of faith" in all your

posts. There are many "people of faith" I assure you that in no way share your views. Since it seems you are embarrassed to disclose your particular denomination you might want to use "people in my denomination" instead.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

83. People of faith have few defenders here

I don't go into great detail about my own faith because I don't want that to become a distracting side issue.

As I have said in this thread, I do not belong to the same group as those in the article. That should be enough.

[MissB]

107. Actually, people of faith have plenty of defenders here

And I say that as an atheist. There is a huge difference between being supportive of one's right to practice a religion and not support those people that try to shove their religion into others' faces.

That is the distinction that plenty of people on this thread have been trying to make. It isn't about being anti-religion at all.

One can only choose to feel persecuted around here. It isn't the reality.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

108. Of course it's the reality

And no, that might not apply to many in this thread, which even I think is a clear departure from the other comments.

While many at DU might not actively hate religion, many of the more outspoken posters on the topic do.

While there are some notable exceptions -- among those of faith and those who don't believe -- that is what they are, exceptions.

[54anickel]

116. I'm rather offended by that remark. Perhaps your seemingly

smug and defensive tone brings out the worst in people. I've noticed it is doing that to me as I read thru this thread.

Example:

"While many at DU might not actively hate religion"

Are you insinuating that you believe a number of DUers inactively hate religion? Because that is how that comment comes off.

Why use the term religion in that type of statement? You seem to set people up to speak out against religion, then shield yourself by taking the high road and hiding behind the phrase "people of faith". The two are totally different concepts.

Religion:

Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

Faith:

Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
A set of principles or beliefs.


Perhaps you could share your definition of the two terms within the context of your statement?

[AliciaKeyedUp]

123. I am not insinuating anything

Several DUers hate religion. There I said it. Heck many of them admit it. Look at the comments about the pope if you have any doubts.

And no, that is probably not the majority and certainly there are some notable defenders of religion and people of faith and not all of them are religious either.

Religion is an organized concept. People of faith have faith in god but might not be part of an organized group.

[MissB]

133. "While many at DU might not actively hate religion"

One can only choose to feel persecuted. Or not.

I find it interesting that you used the wording "while many at DU might not actively hate religion" - that implies that you feel that "many" posters hate religion, just aren't very upfront about it. Your choice of words convey a sense of persecution, which isn't the reality around here.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

135. No, I only speak of the comments people make

Some posters are wonderful even if I disagree with them like Az.

[Oversea Visitor]

115. The real

problems is not christians. There are 22 millions christians in Indonesia. Many NGO in Asia has members of all reiligion. Over here your choice of religion is yours alone.

It is when people trying to force religion on others that start trouble. There is freedom of religion here. There is a separation of state from the religion. The goverment stand is to protect the freedom of choice here.

Going in with aid and faith will upset people. Aid is welcome but trying to force one beliefs on another is not.

In short, although I am a christian from Malaysia I understand why the faith base aid wont be welcome. If the faith base group wants to help by all means. If they want to preach they can all go home, cause
there is enough grief and sorrows already.

[Hoping4Change]

15. Faith is quiet. Selfless deeds and true kindness speak volumes.

"I need not shout my faith. Thrice eloquent
Are quiet trees and the green listening sod;
Hushed are the stars, whose power is never spent;
The hills are mute: yet how they speak of God!"
Silence by Charles Hanson Towne



IMHO these crackpot proselytizers use religion to fulfill a consuming need for dominance which is why they can provoke such outrage.

[Jade Fox]

20. My sentiments exactly....

Those who have genuine faith feel no need to force others to believe exactly
as they do IMO.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

23. Thanks for defining how we should all worship

Care to tell us what are the approved prayers next?

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hoping4Change]

49. LOL How have I defined how anyone should worship?

However something I wrote seems to have got you in a knot. I'm sitting on the edge of my sit wondering what it could be?

[AliciaKeyedUp]

62. And I quote "Faith is quiet"

Maybe yours is. Maybe mine isn't.

Welcome to the world of tolerance and diversity.

[Hoping4Change]

72. You haven't answered my question. I asked you how I was

defining how others should worship because you accused me of defining how others should worship. Frankly I'm all for bringing down the house during worship. Worshipping God has nothing to do with faith which as St Paul says is "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen."

[AliciaKeyedUp]

88. Try rereading your post

You said: "Faith is quiet." That is telling us to be quiet only.

Faith is part of worship and part of what we do every day.

[slamthecrank]

114. Hmmm,

As you've noted, you haven't admitted your "denomination" or whatnot. But, I can tell you this - as a fellow Christian, who often-times struggles with his faith, your very vocal opinions on the Christian faith come across as quite abrasive, and very one-sided. Perhaps this is what he/she was referring to as being "quiet". It is because when you're not quiet, you do much more damage to the faith than when you are - it's best to not "worship" quite so loudly in public. Everyone here knows you're a Christian. Enough said. There are all kinds of ways to be a Christian, and I find nothing about the prior posts telling you 'how to worship'...it's more of a "do not let your right hand know what your left hand is doing."

I think there is plenty of support here for the Christian family. It is, however, sometimes hard (especially with today's administration) to decipher between those who are honest in their faith, and those who are vocally faithful for whatever social or political reasoning. And, the unfortunate side-effect of this situation is a knee-jerk reaction to anything "religious". Especially in this day and age of sex scandals and bishops who twist faith into their own personal benefit and political statements. It's nauseating at the very least, and made worse so when people start getting real vocal about their faith. If you're going to be Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, whatever - you're going to be persecuted. Whining about it is grating and tired. Stop looking for acceptance or support, and just be who you are.

[Guaranteed]

132. You're defending this indoctrination, and accusing others of telling

you how to worship???

[silvermachine]

146. Nailed it...

...in one.

[JerseygirlCT]

111. Well said, and I agree completely!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

16. LOL. You just described faith as an IMPULSE

some men say the same thing about continuing sex after a woman says "no"...thanks for confirming that these nutcases can't help themselves...God can't help them either...lithium, maybe that can help.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

25. Nope, faith is just part of who we are

If people of faith are at the store, they are there as people of faith. If they interact with others, they won't be silent about it.

Just as many here are open about their politics, their sports teams or their sexual identities, faith is part and parcel of every act the faithful make.

[ima_sinnic]

40. but nobody has ever tried to convert me to their sports team

-- just because someone has faith in whatever they happen to have faith in doesn't mean they have to make me have faith in it too as a condition of an act of kindness from that person. that's just spiritual blackmail.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

66. You must have never talked sports

I've got coworkers who have tried to get me to follow college sports and support teams that I couldn't even attach to colleges without research. I am only a mild football fan but root, root, root for the home team. Try telling that to the two office Cowboy fans.

I am not saying you must agree to share in the charity. I am saying that you must accept that is who they are and to expect them to be silent about it is silly.

[dansolo]

68. What if your employer made your employment

dependant on your rooting for their team? I suspect you wouldn't be quite so accepting of the attitude.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hoping4Change]

58. Well I suppose "people of faith" as you describe them are alot like

flaming queens flaunting their sexual preferences. I wouldn't argue with that. Oh-oh. My bad. "People of faith" don't approve of people proudly proclaiming sexuality. Gee could it be that "people of faith" are hypocrites?

[AliciaKeyedUp]

67. We don't have to flaunt, it is who they are

It comes out in everything they do. That's not hypocritical, that's belief.

[Hoping4Change]

74. From your post its hard to tell whether you are talking about gays

or people of faith. When you write "it is who they are. It comes out in everything they do" are you referring to gays?

[AliciaKeyedUp]

84. I didn't bring up gays

I am speaking of people of faith.

[sonicx]

96. "It comes out in everything they do."

even crimes?

[AliciaKeyedUp]

99. If they are commiting crimes

They aren't acting very Christian, now are they?

[sonicx]

101. But they are still Christians, right?

[AliciaKeyedUp]

109. They are, at the very least sinners

Whether criminals still truly believe is something only god can answer.

[sonicx]

110. that goes for everyone, actually...

anyway...if faith comes out in "everything they do," you'd think crime and sin would be part of that.

Including "sins" that are common, like masturbation and premarital sex.

[knitter4democracy]

106. That's true, but it's also about respect.

I wear a cross and a medallion of two icons. I have an icon shelf in my home where everyone can see it, and I'll be putting up icons in my shop where they're supposed to be (above the doors). You're right: my faith is in everything I do. Wearing a cross and having icons around isn't shoving my faith in others' faces, though, to the extent that the missionaries in question have done. If someone wants to talk with me about my faith, fine. If it's time for me to pray, then I will, but in secret as Jesus directed so that I don't hurt anyone else's faith-walk.

Remember what St. Paul directed in 1 Corinthians, Chapters 8-9: that we are to worry about how our actions impact the faith of our brothers and sisters. And who are our neighbors and brothers and sisters? It's a fine line we walk, and we need to be careful of causing others to sin.

[silvermachine]

147. In your case...

...it's exhibitionism. As is evidenced by nearly every one of your posts.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

121. I'll let St Paul do the talking for me..from YOUR bible

His preaching was not in loftiness of words, but in spirit and power. And the wisdom he taught was not to be understood by the worldly wise or sensual man, but only by the spiritual man.

2:1. And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not in loftiness of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of Christ.

2:2. For I judged not myself to know anything among you, but Jesus Christ: and him crucified.

2:3. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling.

2:4. And my speech and my preaching was not in the persuasive words of human wisdom. but in shewing of the Spirit and power:

2:5. That your faith might not stand on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

[Solly Mack]

18. I'm an evolution kind of gal and I can help others without

giving them pictures of Darwin to color. I don't need to put on plays depicting the evolution of man to hand out food. And if anyone needs "healing", I'll provide a medical doctor...not the laying of hands.


You don't insult the people you are trying to help. It's really just that simple. Deeds speak louder than words.

A starving man will tell you anything you want to hear just to be fed.
A captive audience doesn't exactly have free will now do they? A person in need (such as the tsunami victims) is very much the same as a captive audience.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

26. Then go help

If your faith doesn't encourage you to tell others, that's just grand. But don't complain when the faith of others DOES encourage them to spread the word.

The ignorance of how religious people live here is amazing.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[charlie]

34. The ignorance of how religious people live *here*

LOL. Read the article. It's Christians who are cheesed and want the Waco fundies to knock it off.

In an interview here on Wednesday, Pat Murphy, 49, a leader of the team, said the group was a nongovernmental organization, and not a church group. "It's an NGO," Mr. Murphy said. "Just your plain vanilla NGO that does aid work."

Mr Murphy somehow managed to "switch his faith off" for a minute there, didn't he?

[Solly Mack]

35. DOH! I never considered she didn't read the article!

bangs head against monitor...

Thank you!!!! Seriously...

[VegasWolf]

46. they don't need to read the articles, divine inspiration comes not

from the written word, but rather from the deep, dank, recesses
of the mind.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

63. Sorry bub, I subscribe to the Times

And I read the article in question.

Though I do not belong to the group in question, I still defend them and their beliefs.

[VegasWolf]

148. Defend away, I dont believe in spirits in the sky, that's absurd.n/t

[silvermachine]

150. hard to reason...

...with another Frodo isn't it?

[MissB]

41. I'm amazed that you are painting religious people with such a broad brush

Or perhaps it is a narrow worldview. I'm not quite sure which it is.

At any rate, not all religious people live to spread the word of their god with every breath. I'm surprised you didn't know that.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[silvermachine]

149. You said it....

<<<The ignorance of how religious people live here is amazing.

At least in your case it is.

[Rose Siding]

24. Read. The. Article.

This is about one extreme sect from Texas; Antioch- which is messing it up for all the other faiths (NOT switched off!) that are providing relief.

Dare to defend that.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

27. I dare

If the people of Indonesia don't want Christians to come there because they fear Christianity, then let them come out and say it. Trust me, hundreds of millions of dollars in donations would disappear as would many relief agencies.

We won't go where we are not wanted.

[Rose Siding]

36. You just will not read the article!

7% of the country IS Christian. It is this radical sect that is placing CHRISTIANS in peril.

Read it.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

65. I did before I started responding

Do you have any other points?

[charlie]

75. Endangering the Christian locals is a mere *point*?

They're the ones saying it's dangerous. They're the ones saying it's blowing efforts to ease religious tensions with interfaith cooperation.

And they're the ones who'll live with the consequences when the Antioch crowd leaves.

That means nothing to you? Their well-being and preservation of communal safety takes a back seat to the proselytizing impulses of the visitors from Waco?

[Solly Mack]

81. That's what I don't get either

How can anyone be more concerned about the ones causing harm than those that will be harmed?

Cause you're right, it's the locals that have to pay the price for the American fundie horde.

If the locals tell you that you're causing harm, then it seems to me that the moral thing to do would be to stop causing harm.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

85. They are not from the same group

So their comments have to be viewed in that light as well.

Christian is a big tent. Not everyone in the tent gets along.

Again, if they don't want anyone to preach about religion, they should make that clear ahead of time. Because many Christian groups would have taken a pass on helping with that restraint.

[charlie]

91. I'd say anyone interested in the well-being of a fellow Christian

would suppress suspicions of denominational antagonism and presume that his concerns were valid, in the off chance that he could get hurt. He's a resident, he'd know the community better than outsiders. If he's a liar, you miss the chance to spread the Word. If he's not, he gets his church wrecked and his charges harassed.

And maybe many Christian groups would pass with such restrictions, but most of them don't. The loss would be minor.

In any case, the aid groups are aware of the problem now. If the Waco crews can't abide the restrictions, they should leave.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

98. I agree in part

All of the Christian groups should leave if they are not welcome to speak of their religion.

[charlie]

104. I'll just say I'm glad most of them would stay

Good on them.

[Cobalt Violet]

117. Well some may actually be there to help the people instead of cramming

NONSENSE down their throats. They may be putting the needs of the affected people above their own need to infect everyone with their fiction.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

124. Your reference to "nonsense" says all I need to know

about your position on religion.

[Cobalt Violet]

130. Thank you,I call it like I see it, crap, nonsense, bullshit, fiction, etc.

MY PREROGATIVE!

[AliciaKeyedUp]

136. Yes, freedom of speech

You are entitled to your view -- no matter how obvious it is.

[Cobalt Violet]

137. I should hope so.

And I don't need anyone to telling me that.

[Rose Siding]

140. Ah, the reasoning of that Uniter with whom we're all familiar

With us or agin' us. Kiss our ass and the bread and water is yours!

Such shallow piety; a stain on Christendom and, in this case, America as well.

[Tafiti]

138. Wow. Your comments are telling.

"Because many Christian groups would have taken a pass on helping with that restraint.

Sounds like that conditional love that Jesus talked so much about. Ummm....wait a minute...

Just one question. What would Jesus do?

Don't worry, I'll answer that for you. He would find your comments disgusting and decidedly un-Christ-like.

[silvermachine]

151. Hmmmm.....

<<<Again, if they don't want anyone to preach about religion, they should make that clear ahead of time. Because many Christian groups would have taken a pass on helping with that restraint.

Doesn't sound very "Christian" to me. Oops, my bad, yes it does.

[MissB]

43. That's an interesting "Christian" attitude

I'm pretty sure Christ said "help the poor and sick BUT only if they accept me as the son of their god. If they don't, well, screw them."

Yeah, that was Christ's message.

Wow.

[alarimer]

52. it boggles the mind.

These people are starving and deserve compassion, not preaching. Indonesia should throw them out and not allow them back ever but unfortunately the people really need the help.

This sort of behavior by so-called "Christians" disgust me, no matter it occurs. I don't want to hear about someone else's religion. They need to shut the fuck up already.

[arwalden]

56. Let's Call It... "Ambulance-Chasing Salvation"

[Hoping4Change]

77. "Ambulance-Chasing Salvation" That is brilliant.

ROTFLMOF :bounce:

[arwalden]

54. Yep... That's Predatory... And DISGUSTING!!

[VegasWolf]

45. "fear Christianity??" The only thing to fear about christianity is

a government that is based on using it to control the sheep.

[ima_sinnic]

47. won't go where you're not wanted??!! that's a laugh!

where IS a proselytizer "wanted," anyway?

[AliciaKeyedUp]

64. Actually, a lot of the world wants to hear word of God

More people have religious faith than are atheists by a long shot.

[Hoping4Change]

79. Just like alot of people in Jonestown wanted the Koolaid.

Yeah right.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

86. Another DU classic

Yep, all the billions of religious people are just like Jonestown.

:eyes:

[sonicx]

95. not all people who are religious preach to others

[AliciaKeyedUp]

100. Absolutely true

But one does not have to preach to express your faith. If you have a strong faith, it comes out constantly. Just as many people here are undoubtedly open about their politics.

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[silvermachine]

153. Then leave...you are not wanted...

isn't that your advice when not wanted?...believe me, we'll get by. I have faith that we will.

[Solon]

122. Wait one second...

You said "Actually, a lot of the world wants to hear word of God. More people have religious faith than are atheists by a long shot."

What is the litmus test for you about being one of religious faith? That they have to subscribe to your beliefs alone? This isn't a bunch of militant atheists that they are trying to convert, these are other people of FAITH! Just because someone doesn't subscribe to your particular brand of Christianity doesn't mean they are not a person of faith. Using such a general term insults and demeans the religious of every other major and minor world religion that exists today.

What do you call Buddhists, Jainists, Muslims, Hindus, Indigineous followers, and followers of the many minor religions that dot this planet? Do you call all of them unbelievers? What century is this, the 16th? You cannot be serious with your statement, either that or ignorant, I do not know which.

[Misunderestimator]

127. More people have religious faiths other than Christianity, by a long shot.

[Hoping4Change]

51. I only wish it were true that zealots didn't go where they aren't

wanted. The Anointed One's invasion of Iraq certainly puts a lie to your statement.

[TheWatcher]

73. And what do you know about what they fear?

You are making the ridiculous assumption that these people "fear" christianity. Do you realize how silly your statement sounds? You have no idea what these people fear, what they think, or what they are going through. They are STARVING, living in desperate, dangerous conditions, and have experinced tragedy on an unprecedented scale like we have never witnessed in our lifetimes.

The True Christian thing to do would be to help with out any strings attatched. True compassion would be to throw religious oportunism out the window and just HELP. That to me would be a true display of values.

As far as this "We won't go where we're not wanted" attitude goes, that smacks to me of a selfish 12 year-old taking their football home because they can't have things the way they want them.

This is a natural disaster where hundreds of thousands have died. Millions are homeless. And these idiots want to fret about religious conversion.

Forget religious oportunism, forget all of this nonsense. My message is JUST HELP THESE PEOPLE.

If this concept is too dificult for you to understand, then perhaps you should re-examine some of the things Jesus tried to teach. It's obvious you missed something in the transaltion.

[Daphne08]

112. No disrespect intended,

but it seems to me that you have just tied 'donations, help, aid' to 'acceptance of Christianity and Christians' which is very un-Christ-like, in my opinion.

And yes, I'm a Christian, but I am also a realisitic human being who believes that mine is not the only religion on the face of the earth.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

125. Such acceptance doesn't mandate belief

But why should Christians flock to a place where they can't worship as they wish or speak their minds about their faith?

And yes, it is a disaster. So is Darfur. So are a lot of places that aren't getting attention. Why not go some place where you are wanted?

[chenGOD]

126. Do you really think Christ would agree with that?

Would Jesus Christ have said: "accept my word, listen to what I have to say, or I won't be giving you and loves and fish." ? That doesn't seem very Christian to me.

[Bridget Burke]

139. The events recounted in the excerpt happened in Sri Lanka.

Not Indonesia. And Sri Lanka has had a significant Christian minority since the first "generation" of Jesuits.

Quite a few Christian aid groups manage to do good without forcing Jesus down the throats of people in dire need. These fools are making it hard for the Christians already living in these countries & are not giving serious amounts of aid.

As a Catholic, you really need to learn more about how Catholic Charities operates.

www.catholiccharitiesusa.org/

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[da_chimperor]

93. That argument is a load of bullshit

You can help someone without preaching to them. They aren't there to put on plays about the life of Jesus, they are there to help the survivors with food and aid. Do you think that members of other Christian relief organizations don't have faith? You know, the ones that think behavior such as this is unethical. They don't waste time and effort evangelizing when they could be helping keep people alive. There's a difference between having faith and trying to push it on others. Groups such as the one discussed are doing the latter, and I find such behavior to be repugnant. If those evangelical groups want to preach once everyone is taken care of, that's fine.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

134. More like an imaginary buddy for grown-ups. This "get 'em while they're

down" shit is abominable.

[mutus_frutex]

143. It's very unethical..

But of course, for a lot of people evangelizing comes before helping and respecting the beliefs of other people.

[salin]

11. The following graph at the end of the article says it all:

W. L. P. Wilson, 38, a disabled fisherman with a sixth-grade education, said he allowed the Americans to pray three times for the healing of his paralyzed lower leg because he was desperate to provide for his wife and three children again. Mr. Wilson, a Buddhist, said that he believed that the Americans were trying to convert him to Christianity but that he was in "a helpless situation now" and needed aid.

"They told me to always think about God and about Jesus and you will be healed," he said. "Whenever I ask for help they always mention God, but they do not give any money for treatment."


Belief that just invoking God's name is the end goal... not trying to actually bring aid or help. Seems to rather miss the point of much of the teachings of Christ...

It was good to read, however, that many groups are not taking this approach... or at least are not publically admitting to it.


on edit - in last line.. not publically admitting to it isn't a good thing, just an afterthought to the "good thing" said before per many groups not putting the "prostelytizing" as the primary action.. my statement was more a "then again... could be that is just their PR and thus it isn't necessarily a good thing..."

[UL_Approved]

12. This is a severe problem

In most parts of the world, we are the invaders that try to reprogram religious edict to suit our needs. This is why the world hates us.

We are not free in our own country. We just spread around our crippling message of intolerance and conversion. All real religions have a valid right to exist. The trouble with America is that we are NOT Christians. We don't follow the teaching of Jesus, and we sure as hell don't believe in his compassion. If that were true, we would let others see for themselves what Christianity has to offer, instead of trying to sell it around the world.

I need to compile a set of links outlining the evolution and corruption of Christianity over the ages. The same could be said of Islam, Judaism, and many other religions.

We are in a much larger war around the world right now. Its not between Islam and Christianity. Its between all real religions and the perversions of them. Corruption of religions puts our radicals on the same footings as all others. Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and other choice morsels of hate spewing demagogues are the same group as Osama Bin Laden, the Ayatollah Khamenei, and the rest of the Muslim extremist world. Our radicals are the American Taliban. Their radicals are Eurasian televangelists (they make tapes, after all).

This worldwide trend of extremism comes as world leaders are losing their grip over society. New technology, such as the Internet, is making it difficult to impossible to keep up with regulating the human race. Traditional power is waning in light of distributed and anonymous communication. This post that I write could be done and uploaded anywhere in the world. And if I researched it heavily enough, I could post with impunity. This same ability is afforded to every other person in the world. That is power. And it is power in the hands of the many. And the few don't like that at all.

[bloodyjack]

13. I think this partly why India said 'no thanks' to foreign aid workers

:shrug:

[Hoping4Change]

17. India's Hindus have their own homegrown intolerance to worry about.

Check out emad's posting about India's Untouchable caste being forced out of refugee camps and being forced to drink their urine because the "purer" castes believe that if the Untouchables drink from the UNICEF donated water they will pollute it.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1173526



(Christian fundies don't have corner on idiocy and cruelty disguised with religious precepts.)

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cobalt Violet]

21. These JERKS are relentless!

Why do they have to make all Americans out to be nasty, compassionless, IDIOTS!!!!?? :grr::grr::grr:

And Catholic Relief Services is right on, it is UNETHICAL.

[VegasWolf]

30. Seems like a real awkward moment to try to convince people

of god's benevolence, especially just after the tsunami.
but, they come from texas, so they must be right.

[CTyankee]

48. "Rice Christians"

is what it used to be called back when I went to Sunday School in Brownwood, Texas, and that's a long time ago. The proselytized get rice if they listen to the sermon (and maybe convert, I don't remember). Does that ring a bell with anyone else over the age of 60?

[arwalden]

50. Reminds Me Of Time-Share Swindles...

In order to get the free gift (in this case, food) one must listen to the time-share presentations and hard-sell (in this case, Jesus).

The Christians who do this are predators and despicable opportunists.

[charlie]

53. LOL

You've made me think of Jim Bakker's timeshare swindles. Remember how he overbooked his theme park to the point where if the park and all it's patrons lived to the year 2200, everyone might get to stay there once? I swear, there isn't a single scam those helmet-haired hustlers haven't tried to pull off.

[Hoping4Change]

80. Rice Christians. That is too funny. Well sad too but funny.

[Malva Zebrina]

55. The act of spreading the word

no matter what you have to do to perform that, is a mandate by the god of the bible. It has become an excuse for abuse.

It seems to me a highly selfish approach, having the proselytizers own soul, or some reward in the hereafter, at top priority over that of the helpless people they would threaten to deny food to, or for that matter, the millions of dollars these unfortunates would lose, if anyone objects and tells them to stay away--It does not seem they would even respect a simple request like that, without expressing vengeance directed toward the suffering people because they prefer to not get out of the way of the proselytizers as demanded.

It amazes me always that this god, this omnificient, omnibenevolent god absolutey NEEDS human beings, certainly more flawed and lacking in many things than he, to sell him.

[dansolo]

71. I always found the idea of heaven to be inherently selfish

It seems to me that for many people, it is the promise of a reward in the hereafter, or the threat of eternal damnation, that is the motivation for the way they behave. I find that attitude to be extremely selfish. I don't believe in heaven or hell. I do good deeds because it is the right thing to do, not because I want some reward after I die.

[zbdent]

57. Their egos just can't handle giving people aid and comfort

just because it's a good thing to do.

They gotta get the credit for "saving" somebody. Of course, if they get killed for doing so, then they're in their most orgasmic phase, because they would now be martyrs.

[malaise]

70. No surprise here

I've run more than a few of these idiots riding around on bikes from my gate and warned them not to come near.
Why is anyone surprised - this has been the norm since slavery. Induce unsophisticated people into a religious trance and loot their countries of resources. They know nothing about humanity - arrogance and self interest. That's why my tsunami donation went to Doctors without Borders. I would never give a religious group money - never.

In the good old days I had many educated friends who joined the Jehovah's Witness when they heard they were giving away visas. Most migrated and left the church after the mandatory two years of rubbish.

Many people in developing countries are unsophisticated but they are not stupid. Many give as good as they get and more than a few will use them for visas and move on.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MadisonProgressive]

89. fucking bastards -we'll help you under one condition

[roguevalley]

90. personally, given the state of trauma there, if they behead a few

of these geeks its their own fault. Between the 'untouchables' getting no help in India and this, I could become agnostic in a new york minute.

[Solly Mack]

92. They certainly would have no one to blame but themselves

if they get caught up in the hornets nest...especially since they are the very ones riling up the hornets nest.

I'm just sorry the locals would have to also pay the price for their insensitivity and callousness.

When you enter a different country, it's always best to consider the politics of that country, and to avoid causing harm with your actions.

[54anickel]

94. Such total disregard and disrespect for the local Christian community -

I mean, hey, when it starts to get ugly these folks can just hightail their asses back to Waco, TX. Meanwhile, they will have set any interfaith progress that has been made by the local Christians back.

[rocktivity]

102. They should be punished the same as any prostitute or extortionist

They're nothing but common criminals--and I DO mean common.

:headbang:
rocknation

[maxudargo]

119. I PREDICTED THIS ...well, kind of... okay, not really, but...

It does seem kind of eerie:

http://www.udargo.com/burton/Tsunami

Toward the bottom. Scroll until you see Bush and his Presidential Halo.

[Hodedofome]

142. I know all of the people from Antioch Community Church...

that are in Sri Lanka and Indonesia right now. I haven't read all the comments on here but I assure you the vast majority of the comments are flat wrong as to the motives of the people there. If ya'll really knew what was going on in Sri Lanka and Indonesia and the native's reponse to the groups over there from ACC you'd see how silly all these comments are. We are not going over there and saying if you want aid then you have to become a Christian. We are going over there to serve the poor and help in whatever way we can, which is more than I can say for most of the world, including most of you people. Ya'll sit behind your computers in your nice homes and maybe send 1/10th of 1% of your income to some aid agency where most of the money is going to the people that run the agency. Where if 40% of the aid that is actually shipped over there makes it to the people you're lucky. Where most of the aid sits in some warehouse or an airport and doesn't even make it to the people because of the government. Our church is actually going over there, going through jungles and monsoons and risking our lives so that these people can get the help they need. The UN showed up about a week or two after we did, if that gives you any indication. We weren't even able to be in contact with a few of the initial teams there because there's nothing available in the areas they have been in. 100% of the aid that was sent there with my church made it into the hands of the people that needed it most.

Contrary to what you read in the NY Times, we enjoy great favor with the people AND the government there. The military in both countries has embraced our guys with open arms and have not stopped talking about the great things our guys have been doing. The people in the villages have been so thankful. We have been doing everything from delivering medicine and supplies to praying for folks in need to teaching school for children because all the teachers are gone. We have met with Prime Minister Mahinda Rajapakse of Sri Lanka and he is working to "give" us a fishing village in order to rebuild the entire village with over 400 people. We do not force anybody to do anything, we simply ask them if they would like us to pray for them, and nobody has declined. Jesus and the disciples preaced a two handed gospel: meet people's practical needs and share with them the hope of salvation through Jesus Christ. Don't fault us for being radical, fault the Bible and Jesus Christ. At least we are practicing what Christ preached, if you don't approve of it talk to God about it.

1. Are we aid workers or missionaries?

Let me clarify that we are unapologetically both. The Message of Jesus is one of practical compassion, the meeting of people's needs, as well as the clear proclamation of the message of hope through Him. We need to be the same people whether we are doing aid work through ISP or whether we are doing CP work in our locale. I believe that integrity will win the day and it gives God the opportunity to defend us at every turn as well as it allows a lack of ambiguity and clarity in who we are as a people.

2. Are you proselytizing or converting people?

First of all, most people's definition for proselytizing is that you
are trading aid work for converts to Christianity or to your particular church group. Obviously the answer to that is no. But it is always important when talking to other to define the word proselyzation so that you are able to make an appropriate response. Obviously we will give aid to anyone, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Atheist, just because they have need and regardless of their response to any message about Jesus.

Secondly, we are unashamedly sharing the hope that is within us. We
are sharing our stories about how Jesus has changed our lives and
communicating with others how they can know the hope and peace of God through Jesus. However, conversion is a thing that only God does and is a thing of free will. No man can make anyone convert, neither are we demanding or believe that we can convert anyone. That work is up to God. We simply share our lives, our message, and give people the opportunity to respond. If they respond to Christ we will help them grow in the grace of God.

3. Some Christians believe it is unethical to share the Gospel and do
aid work. What would your response be?

Again, we believe the Message is a seamless flow. Just as we have
people in the workplace in America being open about their faith and
message, so we would expect anyone working anywhere in the world to be open about who they are and what they believe. Many times someone is thought of as noble if they go and do work in the name of human compassion. At the same time, if you do your work in the name of Jesus, with the message of love and hope attached to it then you become thought of as wrong or evil. We believe that we should honor anyone helping people around the world but that it is more righteous to have one message instead of two.

[VegasWolf]

152. That's okay, I'm unashamedly, unapologetically an atheist and i

am spreading my message of hope with a world view that
you don't have to worry about dying and going to hell,
because there isn't one.

[Sparkle]

154. Are you preaching to us?