Dresden parliament in uproar at neo-Nazi outburst

[emad]

Ian Traynor, central Europe correspondent
Saturday January 22, 2005
The Guardian

Leading neo-Nazis outraged an east German state assembly yesterday by branding the second world war western allies "mass murderers" and accusing the British of perpetrating a "holocaust" against Germans.
Holger Apfel, deputy leader of the neo-Nazi National Party of Germany (NPD), had his microphone switched off during a bellowing performance in the Saxon parliament in Dresden in which he lam basted the British bombing of the city 60 years ago next month.

A week before world leaders gather in Poland to mark the 60th anniversary of the liberation of the Nazi death camp at Auschwitz, the parliament sought to mark the occasion with a minute's silence for all the victims of Nazism.

But Mr Apfel and his 11 NPD colleagues in the assembly boycotted the remembrance, staging a walkout from the chamber.

NPD supporters in the public gallery bayed and one of them was heard to describe the Social Democratic leader of the parliament, Cornelius Weiss, as an "old Jew".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/germany/article/0,2763,1396063,00.html

[Dzimbowicz]

1. I would just like to add...

that the US Army Air Corps was a participant in the destruction of Dresden as much as the RAF was.

[UL_Approved]

7. The victors write history

We are guilty as sin in the fire bombing of Dresden, Germany. We killed thousands upon thousands of civilians in that raid. It was the worst conventional weapon killing of civilians in one incident during WWII if I remember correctly.

Imagine taking 20,000 lab rats, atomizing gasoline in the air over them, and then igniting the mess. Now imagine doing that to 20,000 human beings. That is the legacy of Dresden. :nuke:

[Dzimbowicz]

8. I have done extensive research on this

and another crime the US Air Corps perpetrated was strafing innocent civilians, who were taking refuge in the Elbe, with P-51s.

A good book which covers this is: Alexander McKee's, Dresden 1945: The Devil's Tinderbox.

I agree, the victors do write the history. The US is as guilty as can be; and Dresden was bombed again several days after the initial raids by both the RAF and the USAAC.

On Edit: If you can read German, another excellent piece of research was done by Götz Bergander, Dresden im Luftkrieg: Vorgeschichte, Zerstörung und Folgen.

[Jim Sagle]

29. USA, USA!

:toast:

[Ganja Ninja]

54. The German Nazi government could have surrendered ...

long before the bombing of Dresden. They started the war and they are just as culpable, if not more so for, the deaths there.

There's a lesson to be learned from this that the Bushites should pay particular attention too. You can't start a war and then stop a war like your turning on and off a light switch. Once you get a war going you can't always control events and you may not like the end results.

[radric]

13. Imagine loading 6 million human beings..

into the gas chambers or just shooting them and dumping them into pits. Or the millions of Russian peasants butchered as the German's invaded Eastern Europe. Or SS units shooting Allied POW's. Perhaps we could consider the thousands killed in the bombing of London. Yea.. I'll shed a tear for Dresden. Guess the standard excuse at that time "We were following orders" or "We didn't know" makes everything fine eh?

[UL_Approved]

21. War makes us all murderers

This is why war is bad. People kill. People kill in massive and ruthless ways. Every side does it, and innocent people always suffer.

Solution: peace

[Jim Sagle]

31. True, but the solution is getting both sides to agree on that point.

[Bono71]

23. You're right...

this forum amazes me...we love FDR when we talk about social security...his name is nowhere to be found in a thread like this...

Maybe we should have appeased Hitler some more...

[AP]

26. I talk about FDR all the time in the context of fighting fascism abroad

as well as at home.

By the way, I could be totally wrong about this, but I believe the dcoumentary The Fog of War has a very interesting segment on the Air Force officer who was responsibile for this bombing strategy during WW2. I could be wrong thoguh. Anyone remember?

[Jim Sagle]

32. There is an "Alice Through the Looking Glass" quality about this thread,

isn't there? :puke:

[Jim Sagle]

30. You RRRRRRRRAWWWWWWWWWK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:toast:

[JohnLocke]

34. Boo hoo for the Nazis.

Cry me a river.

:eyes:

[Stella_Artois]

43. No, The USAAF has that "honor" alone

More civilians died in the firebombing of Tokyo in one night than in Dresden in one night.

Depending on what source you choose to believe 30-100k died in Dresden over 3 days, 100k+ were killed in that one night in Tokyo.

[Bono71]

22. As William T. Sherman once said, 'war is hell'...

maybe we should have appeased Hitler a little more...after all, what's 6,000,000 jews and 12,000,000 Russian/ Eastern Europeans?

[Dzimbowicz]

24. Of course war is hell, you need not inform me of this...

On 15 May 1975 I was a Marine who was assigned to Golf Company, 3rd Battalion 9th Marines. On this day my unit was sent to Koh Tang Island, Cambodia (the Mayaguez Incident); I was a mere PFC, a rifleman (0311), but I did have the experience of real combat, albeit for a mere sixteen hours. So, yes, I agree with you that war is indeed hell. The Khmer Rouge fought us tooth and nail that day. I have heard with my own ears the sound of bullets striking human flesh, smelled with my own nose the stench of dead bodies, etc. So, what is your experience concerning war and/or combat? Any first hand experience?

What makes you think that I am advocating appeasement toward Hitler? Your reply evokes the 'eye for an eye' policy; that is, if they do it, then so can we. In World War II, as well as today, the US claimed/claims the moral high ground, so how can one justify your position of 'an eye for an eye' if one is going to claim moral superiority? Owing to the lack of content in your post, you appear to convey the idea that if one side kills innocents, then the opposing side is justified to do the same. Two wrongs do not make a right.

[pschoeb]

25. yeah Qoute the Genocidal slaughterer of Native Americans

"We must act with vindictive earnestness against the Sioux, even to their extermination, men, women and children." Writing two days later to his brother John, General Sherman said: "I suppose the Sioux must be exterminated"

[Jim Sagle]

33. Did we exterminate the Germans, yes or no?

[Jim Sagle]

28. USA, USA!

:toast:

[pretzel4gore]

2. the british fukked around so much in history....

Vonnegut's 'Slaughterhouse 5' recounts how a bunch of school girls tried to escape the firebombing in Dresden by immersing themselves in a water tower, and were then boiled like lobsters.....which the bomber pilots remained blithely ignorant of (if they were humane) 'til the day they died. The fact is, the British (and their sisters the US) looked upon the human race as wogs, and played countless games (they called it the great game) everywhere they went. Hitler could have been easily stopped by the British, but even their awful loses in WW1 never clued them in that the Spanish Republic, for example, or china, or ethiopia, should not be left at the mercy of the fascists.....but the british did. Could they not see that reparations were detroying an effective Weimer Republic in Germany? Did nazipoo types in france and USA and Britain etc have so much power that their elites ignored the reality that was mussolini and hitler, only later to see the same mercilessness turned on them? Maybe the German's outrage at what happened in latter part of the war seems hypocritical, but 4 million germans did vote against hitler in '32 (at great danger to themselves and family) and after the war murdering SS thugs were eagerly employed by western intelligence agencies while the anti-hitler germans have never even been recognised to this day....
btw imagine what happen when the Japanese publicise the 'surrender' telegram sent by emperor hirohito to truman a week before the bombing of hiroshima!

[umtalal]

3. Are You Saying This is What Happened?

btw imagine what happen when the Japanese publicise the 'surrender' telegram sent by emperor hirohito to truman a week before the bombing of hiroshima!

I listened to Truman biography on tape, and the surrender took place after the 2nd bombing.

[Hoping4Change]

4. BTW when will the Japanese release information about the

death camps they established through-out China? The Japanese were as ruthless to the Chinese as the Germans were to Jews, Gypsies, Gays etc but unlike the Germans they dismantled camps and carefully covered their tracks.

[pretzel4gore]

5. Gore Vidal's book

i read alot of history, and was 'shocked' (literally zapped) when i read Vidal's book (i think it was called 'endless war) and he mentioned, with that exhausted air guys like he, Louis Lapham from Harpers, or even Hunter Thompson have when a lil detail is discussed as if it's common knowlege: well i never heard of a pre A-bomb telegram to truman (though i had heard that the americans were eager to use the A bomb on 'japs' as payback for pearl, with racism an unspoken factor, and also for test purposes) until i read Vidal's book...i've since learned that the telegram has even been published! When i posted this, i hoped noone would reply, in part because this kind of truth is so awful it makes ridiculous any idea of history (and that is very tiresome)...i feel cheated. I think such a detail completely exposes the biker mentality that truly makes our world what it is....and that too is tiresome. Bushinc is really opening my eyes to what Jesus had to put up with (tho i do not believe in hocus pocus)

[Flaxbee]

10. yeah, you think that a bio of Truman would ever

blatantly admit he was a mass-murderer? It is my understanding that all the Japanese wanted was the guarantee of safety for their Emperor but big manly Truman said "no conditions" and nuked Japan not once, but twice.



(supposed to be a reply to umtalal...)

[umtalal]

38. You could be right. The biography I read had this negative view of

FDR's second vice President, Henry A. Wallace (1941-1945). That he was experimenting with mysticism was his crime (whatever that is), and the US public was not too thrilled with that. From what I know of Wallace he was a true progressive.

BTW, the biography I read was written by: "David G. McCullough." Here is an interesting comment from one of the reviewers on the Barnes and Nobles website. Check it out:

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=fz1112iATk&isbn=0671869205&itm=1

[fedsron2us]

6. This type of facile blame game plays into the neo Nazis hands

None of these NPD politicians was born when Dresden was bombed.

In WW II both the fascists and the allies employed exactly the same bombing tactics. Indeed, the RAF learned the technique of using incendaries to start a firestorm from the Luftwaffe during the London Blitz. The allied campaign was more destructive because they had more heavy bombers than the Nazis.

What the neo-Nazis are trying to claim is that the mass extermination of gypsies, Jews, Slavs, homosexuals and the disabled perpetrated by the Third Reich was no worse than allied strategic bombing. This is simply a lie. Whatever the morality of saturation bombing the allies were not trying to wipe out every German.

It is estimated that 100,000 British and American airmen died in the bombing campaign against the Third Reich. There were 600,000 German casualties. This gives a military to civilian casualty ratio of 1:6. Even after the destruction of Dresden the Nazi regime still retained the capability to retaliate using V2 rockets against the inhabitants of Britain and the Netherlands. Indeed, on 27 March 1945 147 civilians were killed in Stepney London during the last attack.

http://www.historic-battles.com/Articles/can_the_allies_strategic_bombing.htm

What was the fatality rate amongst SS guards in the death camps ?

edit - for link

[pretzel4gore]

9. the truth's just putting on it's boots

so we're gonna have to wait until it spit'n'polished! However. I do agree with you, in terms of positioning every argument to counter the neonazis etc, and that the guilt is alot less for the attacked then the attackers, but the fundamental truth that when good and evil are the only choice, people who, with a little work, can choose the good do not because it's easier to let evil reek havoc (on others, of course) then get involved, and that is wrong..... history does teach that. Applying abstract reasoning to historical events can only be done if all agree with the contexts, and here they don't...though the outright criminality of the nazis must be damned, had the liberal weimar republic been helped a little, after WW1, then hitler never gain power....and most people then, never knew the facts about weimar, reparations, or hitler (who begat the war...) because the historical record is doctored by ssame assholes who cause the mess in first place (for ex. see rise of gwbush!)

[chascarrillo]

11. Wow.

You're really sick.

[pretzel4gore]

18. call 911!

:puke: :puke: :puke:

[MHalblaub]

15. Sorry to correct you

The Londen Blitz was a 'conventional' bombing but most damage was done through firestorms as studies revealed to the British Forces. The idea not bombing but burning down cities was invented and perfected by the RAF.

What made the bombing of Dresden a madness was that there were no industrie inside the city and the intelligence services had knowen that the city was full of refugees (estimated 250.000) trying to escape the Red Army. It was just a demonstration of power to the russians.
Bombing february 13./14. 1945

Your source says:
"Whilst the RAF’s area bombing attacks became ever more successful in killing German civilians and destroying their homes, these attacks made only minor contribution to the decline of the German economy and military compared to the efforts of the USAAF’s precision bombing campaign."

[Dzimbowicz]

16. You are absolutely correct

The bombing of British cities by the German was done with conventional explosives, while the British 'upped the ante' with firebombing. Not only was Dresden firebombed in 1945, Hamburg was the first to be firebombed in 1942. It has now been discovered that the British used a 'combustibility formula' based on information garnered from the Baedeker's travel guides. Cities which were deemed to have a higher percentage of wooden buildings versus masonry buildings were targeted for raids; or used as alternate targets when the primary targets were unable to be effectively bombed.

You are also correct in that Dresden did not have any major war industries. Dresden was known as the 'Paris on the Elbe' because of its universities, museums and operas. The best known industry from this area is Meissen porcelain. However, the bomber command used the excuse that Dresden was a major transportation intersection and that the bombing would hinder the German ability to transport troops opposing the Soviets. The 'fly in the ointment' was that there were not enough German troops for this to be a correct justification for the bombing: it was indeed a show of force to the Soviets, because by this point in the war, the Cold War was in its earliest stage and strategic bombing was one aspect in which the Western Allies had a distinct advantage over the Soviets.

[Stella_Artois]

46. Your post is not accurate.

The Germans dropped hundreds of tons of incendiaries from 1940 onwards. They were a standard item of ordinance. St Pauls cathedral even had teams of people on the roof who's job it was to put them out before they took hold.

the most potent of German bombs remained the tiny B1 El, a 1 kg incendiary which, dropped in profusion in 1940/41, caused millions of pounds worth of fire damage and virtually burnt out whole districts of British cities.

http://www.fishponds.freeuk.com/nluftbri5.htm


As for "Baedeker" raids it was the Germans who used it. They made no secret of it, in fact they even used in in propaganda

Nazi propagandist Baron Gustav Braun von Sturm claimed that the Luftwaffe would work its way through the Baedeker tourist guide. That night Exeter was hit again; there were raids on Bath, York and Norwich over the next five nights, and a third raid on Exeter on 3 May.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/ww2/A1132921

Also, Dresen did have a major war industry, the Carl Zeiss optics plant was in the city and produced the optics for U-Boats and Panzers

1945 Heavy desctruction of the 'Dresdner Kamerabetriebe' (Camera Manufacturing of Dresden) through the bomb attacks on Februrary, 13th/14th 1945

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Zeiss

This would have been better attacked in daylight since it would have resulted in lower civilian deaths, but it was a legitimate target.

[Dzimbowicz]

47. I will take you seriously when...

you can present PRIMARY sources to substantiate your claims. The source from the BBC is considered primary, but that is all; and, news organisations have the tendency to be biased, therefore lowering the level of their primary status. The other two simply show that you know how to perform a Google search. Just because something can be found on the internet does not make it the truth. Do you know what the difference between PRIMARY and SECONDARY sources are and why this is important?

So, the question in front of me is this: Do I discount what I was taught in graduate school by professors of history and the methods of research required to substantiate a point; or do I believe an anonymous person from the internet who knows how to 'point and click'? I think I will go with what I learned in graduate school.

Sorry to discount your attempt to contradict me.

[Stella_Artois]

48. So lets understand each other.

You are disputing..


A. That the Germans used incendiary munitions from 1940 onwards.

B. That the Carl Zeiss optics plant existed in Dresden and was destroyed over the course of the 3 days.

Anything else ?

In terms of proof, its going to be hard to offer things other than "things found on the Internet" since we are most likely seperated by thousands of miles and are after all communicating via the Internet.

[Dzimbowicz]

50. A response

A. No, I am not disputing that the Germans used incendiary devices in their attacks against British (and other cities), however their actions were not taken to the extent as was done by the Allied Bomber Command during the course of the war. My point is: "an eye for an eye" is not justifiable and neither is "all's fair in love and war", especially when one side is claiming the moral high ground as were the Allies (fighting for democracy and freedom against the claims of the Germans to be the "master race"). Some of the other posters in this thread seem to think that I am defending the Nazis, as if all Germans were Nazis; I can state unequivocally that this was not the case. I have not responded to them, but rather choose to ignore their sanctimony and/or lack of reading skills. Considering that all Germans were Nazis is ludicrous and laughable.

B. Yes, Zeiss Optical was located in Dresden, but was not mentioned in the operations order. The official order and target dossier stated that the primary target was the rail marshaling yard in Friedrichstadt to disrupt the ability of the Germans to maneuver forces within their lines. Bomber Command claimed the raid was in support of the advancing Soviet forces by hindering the German transport system.

The route of the bombers was from northwest to southeast which took the bombers over the old city center and the neighboring residential districts. After the initial nighttime raid by the British, the US bomber groups could not use their advanced sighting devices for their accuracy because the smoke rising from the city obscured the target box. Therefore, the bombs were simply dropped into the area which was burning. In addition, Bomber Command made use of white phosphorous in conjunction with high explosives. If one were trying to destroy industrial sites, would not high explosives be sufficient? Why set the city on fire?
Concerning the manufacture of U-Boat optics, the threat from U-Boats was eliminated well before February 1945. As to the sights for tanks, the German ability to produce tanks in any sufficient quantity by this time was also quite limited, not to mention that they lacked the fuel for these vehicles.

According to the Geneva Convention, to which the Allies claimed to adhere, the use of white phosphorous against humans was illegal. To further the claim that Dresden was a revenge raid, American fighter pilots did 'go low' and strafe civilians who were seeking refuge in the Elbe River. These planes were P-51Ds which were armed with six 50-caliber machine guns each. The use of 50-caliber ammunition against humans is also in violation of the Geneva Convention. Something to think about....

I have conducted doctoral research in the National Archives in Washington, DC, the Public Record Office in London and the Institut für Zeitgeschichte in Munich. I have used the actual documents in my research, namely the operations orders of the Eighth Air Force Bombardment Groups: 91, 92, 303, 305, 306, 351, 379, 381, 384, 398, 401 and 457. In none of these documents is the Zeiss industrial complex mentioned; the rail yard in Friedrichstadt was the target. I have no idea if these documents are available via the internet.

I apologize if I was blunt in my initial response to you, but as I stated earlier, the sanctimony of some of the other posters and their accusations that I was defending Nazis riled me. I hope you will accept my apology for my bluntness, but the issue of whether or not the bombing of Dresden was out of revenge, out of necessity or to demonstrate the ability of the Allied Strategic bombing capability is debatable from many perspectives.

Whether or not you choose to believe me is your prerogative.

[Stella_Artois]

51. Thanks for the well reasoned response

It is appreciated, and i gained knowledge, that can only be a good thing.

A couple of questions, if you don't mind. In the spirit of learning more.

Regarding the routing of the RAF bombers, was the northwest/southeast routing explicitly to pass over the old town and residential areas, or was it a result of the approach taken to the target ? Routes were carefully worked out to avoid flak concentrations, and to confuse the Germans as to the actual target, as i am sure you know.

The railyards were to the north west IIRC.

Regarding the WP. Was the WP carried as an actual offensive load, or was it carried as target markers ? I am aware that WP was used in target indicators at the start of the raid by 8 Group, and throughout. I am not aware of it being used as an actual offensive load by main force. Are you in possesion of the tonnage of WP, HE and other incendiaries ? I guess i'm asking a lot of you here, to go through to hassle of posting that.

As for the Carl Zeiss plant, i wasn't aware that it was not mentioned in the orders, i had assumed it was. Regardless, it was there, and it was producing crucial parts for U-boats and Panzers. True, the U-boat war was all but won in 1945, but their advanced Type XXI boats were a grave threat right to the last day and as such any place that produced parts was indeed a legitimate target that justified a raid, but not *this* raid.

Its easy with the 20/20 vision of hindsight to say that with 3 months of war left this raid should not have happened, but the people involved didn't know that, for all they knew it could have been another 6 months or more. It wasn't known how far their nuclear research had progressed, and Hitler was making no secret of his vengence weapons.

[Dzimbowicz]

56. My answers

Concerning the route taken over the target:

The NW to SE direction was designed to take the bombers over the rail yards, which are in the northwestern section of the city, but would also take them over the Elbe bridges and the principle road junctions. The mission, as stated in the operation orders, for the RAF and USAAC was to disrupt the ability of the Germans to maneuver in a sector which was opposite the Soviet direction of advance. A look at a map of Dresden clarifies this for it seems to be the most logical route to the target area. As to the Flak protection for Dresden, most (but not all) of the guns were removed because Dresden had not been targeted prior to this time, hence a significant number of these weapons were used in anti-tank positions (the 88mm was a very effective anti-tank weapon) in the most likely avenues of approach of the Soviet Army.

The smoke from the fires actually caused many flights to simply drop their entire loads into the inferno owing to their inability to acquire targets. Therefore a higher ratio of ordinance fell into residential and other non-military sectors. One example was the rather large Tiergarten (city park) to the SE of the old quarter.

Concerning the WP: Yes, it was used for more than target identification. The tactic was to use WP to mark the targets (i.e. the term "Christmas trees"), then drop high explosive ordinance to break up the target area (an analogy: to render the target into kindling) then drop entire loads of WP into the same target box to ignite fires. If you have ever seen war footage, the thin bombs which resemble clusters of match-sticks are the WP bombs; HE bombs were rather "fat". Dresden was not the only place where this type of ordinance was used. As far as the actual tonnage, I do not have those records in my possession at this very moment for I am at work and all of my records are at home. If you really want to know, PM me and I will look it up for you and provide an answer.

From eye-witness reports, the fires and the heat within the target area, caused pavement to bubble and copper sheeting from roofs to melt; the only ordinance which could produce this amount of heat was WP. Assessments on the part of the Germans was that an untold number of people were simply burned to ashes (vaporized), hence their inability to provide complete and accurate casualty reports; all of the reports use round figures, not exact numbers. Also, WP loads were listed in the USAAC and RAF operations orders. The size of the WP bombs were 100 pounds each, while the HE bombs were 250-500 pounds each, depending on the various loads per bomber flights. B-17s could carry about four tons of ordinance each and the Lancasters carried a similar payload.

True, the Type XXI U-Boats were a threat, but were not in enough quantity to pose that much of a threat. Think about it: where were these boats being constructed and launched? The Germans still were in occupation of Norway, which was a major base of U-Boat operations, but not construction. Most of the German coast on the North Sea was in Allied possession and the German Navy in the Baltic Sea had its hands full trying to evacuate civilians from the cities in the east.

True, hindsight is 20/20 and people cannot predict the future, then or now.

Kind regards,
Dz.

[Stella_Artois]

57. Thanks for the time taken to reply

I've still got one point i'd like discuss, if you don't mind.

I'm familiar with most types of bombs used by the RAF during WWII, from memory a typical load would be a number of HE bombs such as 250GP, 500MC, 1,000MC, 4,000HC, and clusters of incendiaries but i understood that the standard type was the 4lb filled with magnesium



This having largely replaced the 250lb and 500lb oil bombs at the time.

"British incendiary bombs were generally either 1.8 kilogram (4 pound) thermite sticks, or the ingenious 11.3 kilogram (25 pound) incendiary bomb. This weapon descended by parachute, blew off its tail on landing, and then ejected seven firepots at intervals over a total of ten minutes. The bomb casing itself also had a thermite charge that was ignited when the firepots were expended. The British also developed large incendiary bombs, in weights of 113 and 250 kilograms (250 and 500 pounds) that were tanks of gasoline with a rubber thickener. Apparently there were even larger incendiaries in this configuration that were used for target marking.

"

http://www.vectorsite.net/twbomb1.html

Could it be that the burning magnesium was mistaken for WP ?

I know that WP was used, but i was not aware of it being used outside of target marking, although it must be conceded that enough TI's were dropped during a raid as to cause damage themselves, especially the 4,000 and 8,000lb versions.

[Dzimbowicz]

59. My records indicate

I guess I need to keep this short, for I could go into a long-winded reply.

The initial night raid (RAF) was marked by a total of 2950 Christmas Trees which were definitely WP. The total tonnage of incendiary bombs was 2637, which were the standard 4 pounders (magnesium as the igniter). However, there were thirty-four (total) 1000 lb. markers and one hundred eighty 250 lb. markers which were WP (304.5 thousand pounds total).

Substances such as magnesium, thermite (powdered aluminum with iron oxide) and WP are in violation of the Geneva Convention when used against humans, but not equipment; therefore any number of legal arguments can be employed to use these weapons against targets which would have humans within the target area.

So, to answer your question: yes, magnesium could have been mistaken for WP, but the records indicate that both were used.

The records for the USAAC indicate comparable amounts of incendiary bombs.

I hope this sheds some light on what you were asking.

[Stella_Artois]

61. Thanks again.

Its good to happen across someone who has done deep research into this.

[Dzimbowicz]

62. Thank you

for being patient with me, accepting my apology for my earlier bluntness and listening.

with kind regards,

Dz.

:hi:

[fedsron2us]

19. Terror bombing was used by all sides in World War II

The Nazis showed no reluctance to employ it in their bombing of Warsaw or Rotterdam. These attacks were against cities that were every bit as defenceless as Dresden. The Luftwaffe was also prepared liberally to mix incendaries with high explosives in their 'conventional' raids on London, Coventry, Liverpool etc in 1940.The aim was exactly the same as that adopted by the allies later in the war i.e to blow the roofs off buildings and then set them on fire.

http://www.portcities.org.uk/london/server/show/ConNarrative.53/chapterId/792/Docklands-and-the-Blitz.html
http://www.worldwar2exraf.co.uk/Online%20Museum/Museum%20Docs/Theblitz5.htm

The German airforce also attacked targets that had no strategic or industrial importance such as Bath and York during Hitler's Baedekar raids.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baedeker_Blitz

Although they lacked a heavy bomber force the Luftwaffe were still able to kill over 60,000 civilians in Britain alone. The vast majority of these casualties occurred in the nine months between September 1940 and May 1941.

Nor is it correct to state that the USAAF only used precision bombing. Their 1945 fire raids on Japanese cities used exactly the same methods as the British attacks on Germany. One series of attacks on Tokyo are estimated to have killed over 100,000 people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo_in_World_War_II

Until the advent of the atom bomb none of these terror tactics achieved the strategic claims made for them.

Utltimately, the arguments about the morality of strategic bombing are pointless when dealing with the NPD because this group of fascists do not give a fuck about the people who died in Dresden in 1945. They are merely a convenient statistic used to excuse the reality of the Holocaust carried out in Nazi death camps and to deny the evil of the policy of genocide adopted towards Jews, gypsies and others by the Third Reich.

edit - links

[MHalblaub]

20. According to your sources...

"Curtis LeMay, one of the main architects of the bombing, later said: 'I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal.'"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo_in_World_War_II

"The Baedeker Blitz or Baedeker raids were a series of reprisal raids for the bombing of the erstwhile Hanseatic League city of Lübeck during World War II, which was being used to supply the Russian front."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
The old town with many half-timbered building was bombed in order to check Harris' tactics. See therefore:
http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/bombercommand/bomberharris.aspx

"Dropping parachute flares followed by incendiaries to mark the way for the main force of bombers that would follow."
http://www.worldwar2exraf.co.uk/Online%20Museum/Museum%20Docs/Theblitz5.htm

"Docklands and the Blitz - ...Only 136 bombers were involved, but it was a windy night, and the raid's focus on the small area of the City made it dangerous."
http://www.portcities.org.uk/london/server/show/ConNarrative.53/chapterId/792/Docklands-and-the-Blitz.html


Finally the victims in Dresden were victims of Nazism.

[Stella_Artois]

44. What an unexpected place to find an advocate of pre-emptive war

So the British should have steamrollered into Germany, Spain, Ethiopia and China in the early-mid 1930's ?

Apart from the obvious moral and political issues, where was Britain supposed to magic the millions of troops from ?

[coreystone]

12. Slaughterhouse Five, Kurt Vonnegut, and Dresden

SNIP<
"He was sent to Europe and in the Battle of the Bulge in December 1944, as a battalion scout, he was taken prisoner. He was transported to Dresden, where he worked making a diet supplement for pregnant women. Between February 13 and 14 the Royal Air Force and United States Air Force made heavy raids on Dresden. Vonnegut was a prisoner in a meat-locker under a slaughterhouse, and was among the few people to survive the total destruction. He was later employed by the Germans to dig out corpses in the town. The city was occupied in 1945 by Soviet troops and Vonnegut was repatriated to the United States."
>snip

Link: http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/vonnegut.htm

[98geoduck]

14. Exactly what I was thinking...

Also, I recall reading a book, "The Nuclear Barons" and the authors discussed that the bombing of Japan was totally vengeance. All they had to do to win the war was to demonstrate the bomb offshore. Of course the propaganda machine was in full operation mode.

[gottaB]

17. Nazis raus!

[Solly Mack]

27. Everybody has their side of the story to tell regarding history

The people factor gives lie to the far too simple telling of history with numbers and dates.

I've talked with Germans who were alive during Dresden, the surrender, and it's aftermath. Their tales aren't all happy ones and their words carry the remembered hurt. I can recognise their pain, and the lasting feelings and memories they carry, without playing the blame game.

People also use history as an excuse to explain away all types of bad behavior. I think the article reflects this.

[Jim Sagle]

35. Thread summary: "Let's here it for the poor Nazi victims of Anglo-American

aggression." :nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity:

[JohnLocke]

36. To that, I say:

:nopity:

[Kellanved]

37. I have to wonder about this thread

Nazi filth makes a statement about their warped view of history and... people agree with them ? :wtf:
Which nation demanded "total war", "butter instead of cannons" ? The comparison to Auschwitz is so far beyond the acceptable, it makes me sick.

I wonder why the media is willing to give Nazis a place in the spotlight like this - it is utterly unacceptable.

[Psephos]

60. Well said n/t

[neweurope]

39. We've indeed lost if we keep discussing the past!

I'm glad that some here see Dresden for what it was - a crime against humanity, no matter if the Nazis started.

But at a time where the US are about to get a fascist regime, at a time where religious fundamentalists on the Christian, Muslim and Jewish side are rearing up their ugly heads, at a time where the future seems pretty bleak: Our common goal should be to FIGHT fascists wherever they appear. The neo nazis this particular article speaks of are my fellow countrymen. Fighting them - and their US counterparts - is what's necessary to-day. Let's not fight the battles of WW II again. It's bad that we cannot agree on these battles or on some of them. But let's not waste time with them.

We have new enemies at hand and they are enemies for all of us here. We here must look for the things we have in common, not for the differences. The differences we can discuss once the beast has been beaten back.


-----------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[Dzimbowicz]

41. Es tut mir Leid, daß ich in dieser Diskusion eine historische

Perspektive mitgemacht habe. Ja, Sie haben Recht, wir sollten die Verbrechern von heute diskutieren. Verzeihen Sie mir, bitte und nehmen Sie meine Entschuldigung an.

mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Dz.

[neweurope]

42. Keine Entschuldigung notwendig -

von Ihnen am allerwenigsten :) Ich habe Ihre Beiträge mit großem Interesse und mit Zustimmung gelesen.

Es fällt mir nur immer wieder auf, daß die Linke oft zerstritten ist, während die Rechte sich stets einig gibt. Die Rechte ist erfolgreich...

Mit freundlichen Grüßen!

n.e.

[TankLV]

40. The fact that this thread has been hijacked by persons trying to equate

what the allies did to fight the Nazi's a just as horrible as what the Nazi's did makes me sick.

You people have no clue. But you will continue to believe what you want, regardless of the facts.

You people make me sick.

[sherilocks]

52. I'm with you Tank

I was going to reply to some of the posts, but realized that nothing would change their views.

My father-in-law, a navigator in the Army Air Force, sent us all a letter in the latter part of his life, describing WWII in his words. I'm grateful for his service and grateful that he returned alive.

Picking apart what he did for his country and the risks that he took makes me sick, too.

[geek tragedy]

45. Dresden does not excuse and is not equal in horror to Auschwitz.

Those NPD fuckers should just drop dead!!!

[phrenzy]

49. Dresden Was Murder

Firebombing civilians in a terror campaign was murder plain and simple. If you want to argue that it is legitimate turn civilian cities to infernos in order to try to 'break the will' of the civilian population and subsequently do damage to the regime... Well - I guess Sept 11 was A-OK with you.

This has nothing to do w/ NDP idiots refusing to recognize yet another unbelievable and unparalleled campaign of GENOCIDE (Dresden was NOT genocide although it was mass murder)

And spare me that 'war is hell' bull shit - That's the same line people gave when the Abu Graib pictures came out.

[sherilocks]

53. War IS hell

and equating WWII with Iraq and Sept 11 is a piss poor way to prove your point. There is no comparison. The bombing of Dresden did not initiate World War II and the bombing of Dresden was not a unilateral invasion of Germany.

[Hollowkatt]

55. Outrage??

After reading the post and all the replies, I want to say a few things. First thank you for the information and knowledge, especialy to those of you who took graduate history as that is my major as well (I plan to become a high school/college teacher)
Secondly, does anyone find it just a wee bit hypocritical that we rant and rail against the bush administration for supposedly acting like nazis and yet, if they were fairly elected,( I konw they were'nt, lets not go there ok?), Why can they not have the type of government they want?
I am unaware of anything in the 1920's and 30's german constitution that precludes the nazi party from having that system of governance and policy. While I hate it, I have to allow them the right to believe and think what they want to. I detest genocide, racism and hatered, however, I respect others rights to hold these ideas, because if I don't, then my right to hold ideas as well means nothing.

[gulfcoastliberal]

58. Fuck all Nazi's

The Germans got their country rebuilt. I'd say Hitlers V2 rockets were weapons of mass murder. He would've leveled England if he could have. And all Germans voted Nazi and had to pretend to support them; otherwise they'd dissapear in the night.