Court rejects (Atheists) suit against Boy Scouts

[truthpusher]

http://www.lsj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050122/NEWS01/501220337/1001/news

Published January 22, 2005

Court rejects suit against Boy Scouts
Unanimous ruling says group received no special treatment

By David Eggert
Associated Press

An atheist who sued a school district for letting the Boy Scouts recruit in his son's school lost an appeal Friday when a court ruled there was no religious discrimination.

(snip)

The school district allowed the Boy Scouts to hang posters and have a recruiter invite students to an informational meeting.

(snip)

The plaintiff, John Scalise, volunteered to become a troop leader in 1997 when his third-grade son, Benjamin, joined the Cub Scouts. But the elder Scalise declined to sign the Scouts' declaration of religious principle, which is required of leaders. The declaration recognizes an "obligation to God." The Boy Scouts revoked Scalise's membership, and he pulled his son from the group.

(snip)

Timothy Taylor, the Scalises' attorney, called the ruling the "most judicially corrupt and dishonest" he had seen. He said an appeal likely will be filed with the Michigan Supreme Court.

more:

http://www.lsj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050122/NEWS01/501220337/1001/news

[arwalden]

1. The Boy Scouts Are Sounding More And More Like A CHURCH!!

[paineinthearse]

7. Boy Scout religious awards

http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=mc&c=mv


To encourage members to grow stronger in their faith, religious groups have developed the following religious emblems programs. The Boy Scouts of America has approved of these programs and allows the emblems to be worn on the official uniform. The various religious groups administer the programs. Check with your local council service center or contact the religious organization directly to obtain the curriculum booklets.

[paineinthearse]

8. Declaration of Religious Principle

http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=mc&c=mv

Declaration of Religious Principle

The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and organization or group with which a member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing to subscribe to this Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of membership.

[LostinVA]

11. The BSA now administers the program, not the churches n/t

[jdj]

32. they have all the requirements: sanctimony, hypocrisy, and little boys.

Guess we know where the next pedophilia scandal will come from.

[KingoftheJungle]

2. I was in the scouts and the only religious affiliation was...

the fact that our meetings and many of our "events" (eagle ceremonies, etc) took place at a church. Otherwise God or religion was never mentioned or discussed, although there were definately hardcore christians/religious people who were in the leadership. There are religious merit badges available, but they are not required for advancement and they encompass a broad range of religions, including Buddhism (which is athiest in nature).

I wish people would lay off the scouts, many troops have a LOT to offer kids and teens, and is actually quite a benefit for the adult leaders as well. There are so many wonderful learning experiences and adventures to be had (lord knows I've had my share), and even more important it teaches kids responsibility and leadership in a way school never will.

Then again, I was in a really good troop at the time. Some troops definately suck, it all depends on their size and quality of leadership/membership.

[sellitman]

6. As with everything in life..

There are pluses and minuses. In Scouting the pluses far out weight the negatives. Whoever has problem with the Scouts needs to look at the big picture. They do a GREAT job teaching kids and giving them life experiences that can carry them forth in life with honor and dignity.

[BuddhaGirl]

10. yeah, they sure do a "GREAT" job

in teaching boys about homophobia. Where is the "honor and dignity" in that? :-(

My husband is an Eagle scout, and has seriously thought about returning his award in protest of their bigoted policies.

[jody]

17. I encourage your husband to do that and stop thinking about it. n/t

[Dookus]

13. Yes

and fundamentalist churches do good things, too. Even the KKK does some good things. You have to look at the big picture, I guess.

Sorry, but teaching anti-gay and anti-atheist bigotry can't be swept under the rug in view of "the big picture".

[mutus_frutex]

19. It depends a lot on the troop

In my country the activities vary a lot from group to group and there were several where the religious activities were the main part of the program.

I think religion is not good for kids. Teaching them bigotry is not good either, it kind of trumps everything else. It would be great to have secular scouts.

[jody]

3. BSA only requires a belief in God, not any particular religion. If someone

doesn't satisfy that simple requirement, then they should consider other organizations or start their own.

That issue and others are discussed at BSA Legal Issues.

[KingoftheJungle]

4. it doesn't require shit except a membership fee

Nobody gets kicked out of the scouts for being an athiest or a pagan or anything. If anyone has, it's news to me.

Instead of starting a new organization, why not just form your own troop with your own standards and leech off the benefits of being a member of a huge organization with a well established base?

[jody]

5. Perhaps you should research your assertion about someone being

asked to leave the BSA because of non belief in God. You'll find that there have been instances. :shrug:

[LostinVA]

9. They Kick out not only atheists

But any boy would won't swear a religious oath. Courts have ruled this legal, since the Boy Scouts is a private organization.... one that seems to have been taken over by some really intolerant Christians. <sigh> Baden-Powell was NOT the one to push the "A Scout is reverent" crap, btw. Kinda like how the K of C got the "Under God" added in the pledge in the 50's.

And, unless it has changed, the BSA IS against some denominations -- it no longer includes the Unitarian Universalist Church in its religious badges/awards because the UU doesn't agree with the BSA stance on gays and athesists. Thsi may have changed.

This and the anti-gay stance has really tainted the BSA, which is too bad -- it was a great organization for boys. It's always interesting to me that the GSA and its leadership doesn't freak out over the gay and religious stuff like their male counterparts...

[Dookus]

15. You're most certainly

mistaken.

[mutus_frutex]

20. The scout movement should drop

the requirement of belief in god. It is divisive, antiquated and contradicts all the other principles of the movement.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

22. Yeah, and next you'll expect religions to do the same thing

The Scouts are a private organization and belief in god is part of who they are. If a person doesn't want to join, that is his business.

[mutus_frutex]

28. Man, you are so obtuse...

Read my other posts in this thread. I was a scout and left because of religious reasons.

What you suggest is just stupid. I have the right to suggest that the scouts leave that requirement out, I'm right when I said that it contradicts the rest of the things we stand for. I tried changing it from the inside before I left.

Religions can do whatever the fuck they want, I don't care. I care about the scouts. As a social organization we are ten times above any religion and we would be better still without any god.

I'm finding it really hard to keep civilized tone in this message...

[AliciaKeyedUp]

29. You joined by choice and left by choice

The Scouts have every right to expect religious belief.

I'm sorry you are having a hard time being civil.

[mutus_frutex]

30. The rules were changed on the fly for me.

Why don't you go and read the other messages in this thread before saying even more stupid things?

[AliciaKeyedUp]

33. I've read the whole thread dearie

And the rules were simply made more clear when challenged. They didn't want there to be any doubt. Clearly, you didn't like the clarification so you found other things to do.

[JerseygirlCT]

21. Requiring a belief in God is still religious discrimination

and if a truly private organization, the BSA would be free to discriminate... but they want access to public schools to recruit, and they want government money. Both those things require them not to discriminate.

Saying you can pick the religion of your choice still means one is forced to pick a religion or belief that includes God.

[truthpusher]

36. Anybody should be able to recruit in schools if they let the BS...

...if this was in front of a real court, they would have to make it equal by honoring the request of those who find offense to the recruiting. Just the fact that someone is offended, is proof that it is not equal treatment.

[inslee08]

12. The issue here...

is not the Boy Scouts' policy itself. The issue is that a public school is allowing advertisement from a group which admittedly (and legally) discriminates against a certain religious group (atheism is a religion IMO).

[LostinVA]

14. Agreed

I can intellectually agree that the BSA is a private organization, and thus can discriminate against whomever they wish. BUT, if they use a public facility (ie a school, any other government-owned building), then they should have to include ANYONE. That was the legal basis for allowing women into the Service Academies, and also VMI and the Citadel. Public facilities are maintained by tax dollars, and thus should include ALL citizens. It was also the legal basis for ending school segregation. They want it both ways. Too bad, guys. Build your own clubhouse or have a church sponsor you.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

23. Public buildings are open to all

That includes the Scouts. I could hold a Bible study meeting at a public building just as others could have an atheist meeting.

[LostinVA]

24. Correct, That is the up thread poster's point

It's a public building open to all. You couldn't have a Klan meeting in a school, correct? That is a legal group. The reason you legally couldn't is because it is discriminating against a group. The same for your Bible group, or a quilting group, or a flower arranging group.

Both your Bible group and the Atheist group couldn't discriminate people in protected classes from joining your group. Religion is a protected class.

As I said earlier, as a private organization, the BSA can do what they want, but public funds and buildings can't legally be used. I suspect that's why most troops use churches.

Alicia, I am not irreligious at all. I just think the BSA want to have their cake and eat it to. The corporate leadership wants to be able to act like a private organization, but garner the benefits a public one would have.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

26. Why not?

The Klan just adopted a highway in the Midwest somewhere. They have every right to hold meetings in public space. Just like a knitting group.

The local library lets you reserve space for meetings. It doesn't make any other requirements.

[Cobalt Violet]

25. Would they allow a Satanic Bible Meeting group.

Get real. Even you know they wouldn't.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

27. They should

But I think such groups are pretty few and far between and don't want the PR of such a request.

[mutus_frutex]

31. If that bible study isn't open to everybody then you are

discriminating.

And I'm pretty sure that you would be very happy about discriminating.. You've said pretty much that many times here.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

35. I can use a public space for a private meeting

That's not discrimination, I am allowed to use that space, so are you.

[PurityOfEssence]

16. As an agnostic from the age of six and an Eagle Scout , I see the changes

Lest we forget, it's a private organization, and regardless of the quasi-governmental raving of it, it's free to do as it pleases. Having said that, it must also be noted in bold print how much it's changed since I made Eagle as a lad. When looking over my nephew's paperwork as he was about to ascent the aerie, I was shocked to see a sign-off from his religious leader. No such thing existed in my day.

I grew up in a very liberal and extremely religious state, and as I was approaching the prize, I consulted with my Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster, both of whom were quite religious. It IS in the oath, after all, albeit briefly, and I wanted to be clear with everyone. Their take on it was this: we require no show of faith from you, and we discussed what ambivalent concepts could be an expression of "god". It meant nothing to them; they knew me and believed in me as a person.

Scouting was a very good thing for a shy and awkward person like me, and it taught many good precepts and methods. There was no pervasive religion in the overall practice, and I'm happy to have been a part of it.

Having said all that, though, I must say that it's become yet another inculcation hell-hole as modern believers seek to destroy all who don't submit. To me, this is sad; it was a great time of life, and not all that comfortable, which itself was good. It molds character, teaches self-reliance and all sorts of other honorable habits, but it's been hijacked by the fantasists who demand to control everything. I am very sad for that.

As for the issue that started the thread, it's a toss-up: if the thrust of the Scouts is to cram superstition and magical delusions down peoples' throats, then it shouldn't be allowed in public schools, period. PERIOD. If that's not the major thrust of the organization, then it's a grey area and should probably be allowed.

Life is not strictly delineated, which is why these fringe battles are so important. One can't teach history properly without dealing with religion, but if endorsements about inevitability are made, it crosses the line.

Sadly, at a time when all that is good and nurturing about humankind is being trampled by the forces of selfish close-mindedness, certain purists are picking fights that are probably counterproductive. This is a time to fight with all we have to take back the media and the legislature, and perfectionists who want to advance the rights of things like Gay Marriage (which only a bigot would oppose) or separation of Church and State issues (which only a fool or a pig would be against) do a lot of damage to the cause.

Where does one draw the line? I don't know.

My warm memories of childhood are increasingly merely a source of depression when viewing the current world, and it simply grows worse. For me, to dismiss the scouts as an atavistic force of ugliness takes a huge chunk of my soul with it, and that is hard to bear.

[mutus_frutex]

18. I left because I'm an atheists..

In my country we had Scout (not Boy Scout because we were all coed) organization that was largely secular. When my organization merged with the catholic one they started imposing all kind of litmus tests and declarations of faith. During the assembly that voted for the unification I was the only vote against (I was a fairly high ranking member of the organization, in charge of the cub scouts for the whole country). Shortly afterward I left.

It was one of the most painful things I've done in my life, but I couldn't continue. I take my oats very seriously.

I truly despise the Boy Scouts of America. After the muslim organizations, the BSA is probably the most bigoted Scout organization in the world. I know there are many troops that have decent people, but the organization is just disgusting.

[The_Casual_Observer]

34. Be aware that the boy scouts was adopted as the official program

for male youth in the Mormon church. The Mormon membership and thus influence in huge. This is a very conservative and IMHO weird bunch. Also, IMHO they are probably behind this real shift toward intolerance and fighting change through these various legal proceedings. If BP's original intent was still followed, everything would be great, however the
concept has been meddled with by well meaning assholes in the US for so long that the program really isn't very fun or attractive to the large majority of youth anymore. It is interesting to note that BP didn't have any "Scout is reverent" in the original oath.