Utah State Lawmaker Defends Polygamy

[truthpusher]

http://www.nynewsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-brf-defending-polygamy,0,4053336.story?coll=sns-ap-nation-headlines

Utah State Lawmaker Defends Polygamy

By Associated Press
January 22, 2005, 3:40 PM EST

SALT LAKE CITY -- A Republican state lawmaker countered a Senate colleague's dispersal of an anti-polygamy book by passing out materials to fellow legislators defending the practice as natural and not necessarily harmful.

State Sen. Carlene Walker said she was offended by the book, "God's Brothel," that Democratic Senate Minority Whip Ron Allen distributed to legislators Tuesday.

Walker said she has known polygamists who are "fine, honest, educated, wonderful people."

"To characterize the whole polygamy community as abusive to children and the welfare system is inaccurate," she said.

complete story:

http://www.nynewsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-brf-defending-polygamy,0,4053336.story?coll=sns-ap-nation-headlines

[LostInAnomie]

1. Lets see how much support she can whip up from her Repuke colleagues.

I wonder if Polygamy is part of their family values.

[Demeter]

2. Natural To Whom? Natural For Whom?

Polyandry makes a whole lot more sense to me!

[ogradda]

7. what's polyandry?

or have i figured it out?:evilgrin:

[illflem]

8. A woman with more than one husband is polyandry

a man with more than one wife is polygyny, polygamy can be either.

[illflem]

3. No one has been convicted of polygamy since 1958

My feeling is if it ever went to the supreme court it would be ruled unconstitutional.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

16. Care to bet on that?

I don't see a conservative court OKing polygamy. Why do you?

One thing is certain, if they did, that would be all the right needs to get a new marriage amendment to the Constitution.

[mutus_frutex]

24. What I wonder is:

If it would push the amendment, should people that believe in polygamy just shut up and take or should they fight?

This is a valid question for a lot of other people (for example, gays and atheists).

Should minorities just avoid rocking the boat or fight? According to many in this place apparently yes. I just wonder what the leaders of the civil right movement would think of that..

[AliciaKeyedUp]

31. It's up to them

But they won't find legal polygamy in the U.S. in their lifetime. I hope never.

I don't think polygamy has anything to do with gay marriage.

[jdj]

32. the problem with religious polygamy is incest and child abuse.

Not to mention they need a welfare state to perpetuate it, which generally isn't popular with conservatives.

There is an underground railroad of women helping young girls escape from these cult-like pockets of polygamist communities, for more info:

http://www.polygamy.org

When: Thursday and Friday, May 20 and 21, 2004 - 9AM
Where: Court room of Judge Valdez, Mathison Court House

Once again a felon, allowed to live the illegal lifestyle of polygamy, is in court for the maltreatment of children. This particular criminal has been in Utah courts before, pleading no contest to child abuse and serving only 28 weeks in county jail.

The state of Utah continues to harbor these criminals who exploit, harm and violate the human and civil rights of the most vulnerable. Tax payers continue to fund their lifestyle while the court system is sapped again and again when they get caught doing what is known to occur.

Like cases in the past, these children are only a few of the numerous children abused by this man and many others like him every day in Utah.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

38. Absolutely

It's horrific what they do to the women and children.

[progressor]

43. I very much agree...

but I don't believe the gov't has the right to say who you can and cannot marry - just like the gay marriage issue.

Of course, there also must be government departments/agencies/whatever to defend women and children against the very things you mention - abuse, welfare dependency, and so on.

There's always a balance.

[jdj]

49. yes it does if they are a minor and they are related to you.

and you are living on welfare supporting 50 children.

And it isn't just like gay marriage.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

51. No, it's not like the gay marriage issue

That is between two people, not 50. We as a society can decide what values we wish to embrace. That is not a value most of us would embrace, left or right.

[zann725]

52. Excuse me...but WOMEN are being abused here too. Not just children.

And NO ONE is defending them...or even talking about their psychological, sexual and physical abuse.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

54. Well said

At least you didn't get called a bigot for opposing polygamy.

I think it would disastrous for the U.S. to embrace the practice.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LiberalFighter]

26. I beg to differ... within the last 5 years someone was convicted

Polygamist Convicted of Child Rape

[truthpusher]

29. I agree, because it is unconstitutional....the problem is...

...wouuld it ever go before a valid court?

[Warpy]

4. Polygamy can work when the wives are adults

and when the present wives have veto power over bringing another woman into the system. The advantages would be sharing the labor and childcare, constant companionship with peers, and backup if the pater familias gets a snootful and decides to act like a partiarch.

The problem with it as it's practiced in the backwoods in the southwest is that wives are brought in without the consent of the present wives and new wives are generally underage girls, themselves taken from polygamous families. The successive marriages are not officially recognized, and most of these families end up on public assistance since the big man usually doesn't make enough to support one wife and her kids, let alone ten of them.

I take a live an let live approach to it if it's a consensual thing among adults of an age to legally consent. In Utah, it isn't.

(I knew one polygamous family years ago. The women got together and threw the husband out and continued to live with each other and raise their children together)

[utahgirl]

19. It depends

on the clan. The present wives are also supposed to select any new wife. Most of the clans do as you say, but there are about 400,000 polygamists in various areas of Utah and surrounding states and I don't think you can say that all of them are the same. It may surprise you to know that all of the polygamists in the state aren't necessarily LDS.

I very much favor making polygamy/polyandry legal because as long as it is illegal, the wives have no protection. There is also the problem of public assistance. When the government tried to stop it years ago, the dislocation was terrible. Suddenly thousands of families were disrupted and forced onto welfare. The husbands were thrown into jail and it was a social disaster. Most of the polygamists I am aware of operate a business of some sort with all members of the family working together.

You can make an argument that divorce/remarriage is polygamy. As I recall from anthropology about 2/3rds of the societies on the planet allow polygamy.

utahgirl

[American Tragedy]

22. How can it be legal for parents to force their children to marry at all?

The law seems contradictory. If people under the age of eighteen are considered incompetant to vote, gamble, or consume alcohol, surely they are not prepared to consent to a lifelong union with an adult.

[zann725]

55. I won't even comment on "consensual"?? on the part of Women in this

environment. No one is benefitting if their self-worth is belittled and diminished by being one in a "number" in an intimate relationship.

That we justify it in ANY instance because the Women in SOME instances have learned to 'accept' their fate, and make the best of it by raising their children together is NOT a solution, nor is it mentally healthy for anyone concerned...except perhaps the Alpha Male here.

This is so dark ages it does not even merit rationalization or patronization that "it works" if women are "adults." That Domestic Violence bumper sticker "There's no excuse for abuse" sums it up best.
And Polygamy IS Domestic Abuse.

[BBradley]

61. Why is it domestic abuse.

Don't mention children, as we're not speaking of children. Why is it domestic abuse for more than 2 people to be married? If all agree and understand the arrangement and are LEGAL, then who does this harm?

I'm not talking about the cult-like harems in Utah. Don't bring that up, that's a seperate issue. I'm not talking about the child slavery, that a seperate issue, don't bring it up.

What is morally objectionable about more than 2 people being married to each other?

[Northern Perspective]

5. Funny. A conservative Canadian lawmaker is using polygamy

...as a "straw man" in his opposition to gay marriage.

"Mr. Harper said that, by allowing same-sex marriage, the government was opening itself to a battle over polygamy."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050121.w2same0121/BNStory/Front

[Dark]

6. So why are repubs like her complaining about Gay Marriage bringing

polygamy? If they are "fine, honest, educated, wonderful people."?

Also, someone should tell the bible beaters that polygamy is already here.

[MADem]

45. Naaah, they are just worried about...

..."SANTORUM SEX." You know, that man on dog thing...run, Rover, run!!! HIDE, Fluffy, HIDE!!! Putting a bunch of uneducated women in slave relationships is just fine, but don't fuck the puppy!!

[IndianaGreen]

9. Mormon polygamy does not allow for a woman to have multiple husbands

which is why the basis of Mormonism has always been one of misogyny. In a fair and balance polygamist society, men can have multiple wives and women can have multiple husbands.

The reality is far uglier. The polygamists are pedophiles that marry young girls and then use fundamentalist Mormonism as a cover for raping children.

Many Americans may find fault with those Islamic countries in which women are required to wear the veil, a requirement that does not exists in the Holy Qur'an, but they are ignorant of the fact that even mainstream Mormonism requires women to wear special undergarments.

Freedom of religion does not extend to a culture that oppresses people on account of their gender!

[utahgirl]

20. Well

you have to also point out that mainstream Mormon men have to wear special undergarments, too.

And most polygamists are not pedophiles although there are certainly some.

utahgirl

[genieroze]

37. Mormon men have to wear special undergarments?

What are they?

[utahgirl]

47. Well,

Special undergarments.

utahgirl:-)

[IndianaGreen]

53. Women and Authority: Re-Emerging Mormon Feminism

Here is a recommended reading that you will find fascinating:

Women and Authority: Re-Emerging Mormon Feminism by Maxine Hanks.

Here is a good description of the book by Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1560850140/103-0017924-7783841

[JohnLocke]

59. Link here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_garment_%28Mormonism%29

[roguevalley]

30. this is not morally defensible in my opinion because there is no

choice for the girls that grow up in this and get sucked in. THey are also throwing out the boys when they get to be 16 or so, eliminating competition for the girls. There are droves of boys that are driven out of their towns when they get old enough and its a racket. Who do you suppose supports these 'families'? Their 'husbands'? No. They are welfare rackets.

[illflem]

10. There is Mormon polygamous town of about 300

a few miles from where live. Biggest problem they have is that after over 100 years they're down to two last names in the entire town. I personally know several men there that have over ten wives. No one gives them much hassle.

[truthpusher]

11. really? that's amazing. where is this? n/t

[illflem]

21. Pinesdale, Montana

Thought that their census data would give an indication of what's going on but only 47% answered the census. This doesn't surprise me since few of the folks I know who live there pay taxes either.
Census data here http://mcdc2.missouri.edu/cgi-bin/broker?_PROGRAM=websas.dp3_2k.sas&_SERVICE=sasapp&zi=59841

[0007]

15. Yes there is an interconnection from Mexico to Arizona to Utah

Idaho, Wyoming and Montana that I know of, accordingly these are the real Mormons that didn't bend to the LDS doctrine that was imposed upon them by the U.S. Government in order to gain Statehood.

A real eye opener is in the Constitution of Nevada and when Utah was a Territory.

[jdj]

33. bet they are all on welfare as well.

[zann725]

56. Well isn't that just great for them! What a treat!

n/t

[KingoftheJungle]

12. An excellent book that explores ethical polyamorous relationships...

(note: this is not really on topic as it deals with the issues one encounters within open relationships and polygamy, but an interesting read and, for me, an eye opener to the nuances of the lifestyle as well as relationships in general)

The Ethical Slut, by Dossie Easton and Catherine A. Lizst.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1890159018/qid=1106431361/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/002-4666710-9200050?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Some may find it filled with common sense knowledge and maybe a little basic, but I feel it grants you a unique perspecive into the lifestlye and good advice on dealing with boundary issues, jealousy, and individual responsibility in ALL kinds of relationships, mono and poly.

[rox63]

13. I know several polyamorous people

But their brand of polyamory says women can have more than one partner, men can have more than one partner, and everything has to have the consent of all the partners.

Personally, I have a hard enough time dealing with one relationship at a time. My head would probably explode if I tried something like that. But I have no problem with what other people do, as long as no one gets exploited or abused.

[NYC]

14. They should read the Book of Mormon.

Around page 120, it clearly states one wife only.

[roguevalley]

17. This is a stain on Utah and they better do something about it.

those towns need dismantling, these men need jail and the state needs to enforce their own laws. Uncles marrying their fourteen year old neices is never right. Ever.

[Tacos al Carbon]

48. Uncles marrying their fourteen year old nieces

What does this have to do with polygamy? Are you saying that uncles marrying/molesting their underage nieces doesn't happen in monogamous societies?

[AllyCat]

62. It does happen, but it is part of the "program" with these freaks

They deliberately "pick 'em young" because they don't talk back much. And families are too willing to get them out of the house so they don't have to feed them anymore. Of course, the sick f***s that marry them don't feed them either. The state does through welfare, AFDC, etc. These freaks have no problem taking money off the state they hate so much because they call it "bleeding the beast".

Monogamous, polygamous, whatever...marrying underage kids (among other things)is disgusting, immoral, and frankly dangerous when they get pregnant.

[bleedingheart]

18. Ah repuke hypocrisy

Where is Santorum to rebuke his fellow repuke's commentary...???

[mutus_frutex]

23. As long as it is between consenting adults, why not?

As I said somewhere else, marriage is a contract. It should be between as many people as they want, and between whatever combination of sexes they want. As long as they are consenting adults and reasonable rules can be arranged to take care of the kids in case of divorce.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

25. Polygamy's ok, but same-sex marriages are not

Go. Figure.

[truthpusher]

27. must have mixed genitals in order to qualify...

...The bible is very clear about this. In chapter 75 of Revelationships or Luke or something, it says specifically: "And God said, no wiener on wiener action (and that goes for the ladies too)!". If you don't believe me, look it up!

[jdj]

34. not exactly. only one penis, mulitple vaginas

try it the other way around and they'll burn you at the stake.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

42. Can't have women acting like those damn Amazons!

Hussies!

[lovuian]

28. Well they use to call them Harems...And Kings had them

But the Kings were wealthy enough to support their children


these men live off of Welfare in the state

and this all has to do with CONTROL

Arranged marriages and control of property and assets

Its total control over women...keep them barefoot and pregnant

Someday people are going to look what is happening in these rural towns and see America is one sick society!!!

[jdj]

36. I don't really think the harem girls can be documented as

having much choice in the matter. I remember reading about a ancient Chinese leader that offered as his daughter's dowry "A thousand (yes, you read it right) slave girls dressed in sumptuous silk".

Now someone like Hugh Hefner is a better example, one of his current girlfriends is an attorney, these women clearly have made their choices. Whenever it is based around religion and God is invoked (as if God gives a damn) is when it becomes pure evil and psychologically abusive of children.

[proud2BlibKansan]

35. The biggest problem with polygamy

is that it often leads to inbreeding. I watched an excellent show on polygamy just this morning on A&E. They interivewed a couple women who had left polygamous families and they said the men often married nieces and even their own daughters. One woman said there is a high number of kids with birth defects, way too many stillborn and the infant mortality rates are incredibly high in polygamous communities. The families often bury their own dead and homeschool their children so it is almost impossible to get an accurate count of just how many impaired children and adults there are in these families. They also said the men treated their wives as breeding machines and had little or no involvement with raising the children.

[jdj]

39. the biggest problem with polygamy is the also the biggest problem

with your post. You totally dimiss the feelings and experiences of the women involved although you are clearly describing cases of incest and probably rape, yet the woman's perspective is discounted as insignificant or non-existent. Nothing about how it FEELS for a teenage girl to be wed to then raped by her uncle or cousin or even father, how it FEELS for a woman to not have the love relationship that she desires if she desires it. Women's and children's feelings are totally discounted, that is the biggest problem. The inbreeding comes later. I have read some accounts from children of polygamous families in the middle east and they do intuit their mother's pain...it's really sad to read about how they hurt to see their mother in pain after she was replaced by a new wife and shoved to the end of the line, and the resentment the child feels to the new wife as well, and any children the new wife or newer wife bears. I imagine these families are simmering cauldrons of resentment.

[proud2BlibKansan]

46. I didn't mean to dismiss the feelings of the women

That is a separate issue. And you are right. It is more tragic.

My point is that we absolutely cannot condone inbreeding. I would hope this is enough to quash any attempts to legalize polygamy.

[AllyCat]

44. Anyone read Under the Banner of Heaven?

Jon Krakauer's book will nearly make you sick as he discusses what is really going on with these folks. Having sex with kids (and that's who they pick because they are the easiest to decieve) is disgusting.

If grown adults want to do this and they are consenting, so be it. But kids are completely out of the question.

And to press for this while gays marrying is somehow NOT okay is an unbelieveable twisting of, umm...logic, if that's what one can call it.

[jdj]

50. I need to

He is one hell of a writer, I loved "Into Thin Air".

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. And odds are those young kids

are impaired anyway, due to inbreeding, which just intensifies this tragedy.

Sounds like a good book. I'll definitely check it out.

[JohnLocke]

60. Yes. Excellent book (nt).

[stanwyck]

63. I did. I wish more DUers would read this book

the conservative Mormon power structure in Utah is shielding the people who are physically abusing women and children. The book recounts the case of a Mormon woman who is murdered by her brotheres-in-law because her behavior is not deemed sufficiently submissive. If the religious right is really concerned about marriage, why don't we see Jerry Falwell and Co. on TV condemning those in Utal who are having sex with underage relatives? Makes you wonder.

[AllyCat]

64. Krakauer tells a mean tale

He also wrote Into Thin Air and Into the Wild. He really looks for as much information as he can find about his chosen subject which is not too had in the case of Into Thin Air since he was there. He's an excellent write who looks at many sides of an issue and does his wicked best to tell the whole truth.

Reading Under the Banner of Heaven made me sick to my stomach.

[jazzjunkysue]

40. This is my senate, arguing about polygamy. Un-friggin'-believeable.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

58. Family Values

Amazing how these HYPOCRITES can get away with this stuff. They are unbelievable.