U.S. Marine helicopter crashes in Iraq

[Robbien]

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

BAGHDAD, Iraq -- A U.S. Marine helicopter crashed Wednesday in western Iraq, the U.S. military said. There was no immediate word on casualties.

The helicopter went down near the town Rutbah around 1:20 a.m. while conducting security operations, the military said in a statement. The aircraft was transporting personnel from the 1st Marine Division.

A search and rescue team has reached the site and an investigation into what caused the crash is underway, the military said.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apmideast_story.asp?category=1107&slug=Iraq%20Helicopter%20Crash

[Tsiyu]

1. Damn

how many more.....?

[pinniped]

2. Don't worry, 80 billion more of the taxpayers' money...

and these will never happen again.

[bluestateguy]

3. Some defense contractor is cheering right now

Because somebody is about to make a lot of money building a new helicopter. Somebody.

[Pirate Smile]

4. How many people do these carry when they are transporting personnel?

shit.

[TacticalPeek]

5. Bummer.

President aWol's Folly.

:grr:

[DoYouEverWonder]

6. Here's a pic from the crash

[bluestateguy]

7. ABC News radio: 17 Marines killed in Iraq helicoper crash

I'll update as I get info, or someone else can reply with a link and I'll put it up here.

The report said that the military did not believe the copter was downed because of hostile fire. Which I'm sure is a streaming pile of--

[leetrisck]

8. Oh, Dear Lord,

Prayers.

[TomClash]

9. The Marines under Bush

Semper Fi and then you die

[saigon68]

10. "Bring Em On" shouted the Awol Chimpanzee

"Hey my buddies at Boeing can make a few more of these to help me kill the Rag-Heads", he continued.

[rodeodance]

11. weren't 5 (I heard 6 also) killed just yesterday also?

[LynnTheDem]

14. 7 yesterday

http://icasualties.org/oif/

[rodeodance]

18. thanks for the link--beyond sad for their familie -to be in a war based

on WH deceptions!!

[LynnTheDem]

22. Yes it is. So far we're one of the lucky families.

My active duty Army husband made it home safe and sound-ish after 16 mths in Bush's FollyLand, and so far our National Guard nephew is surviving.

But we've lost a lot of friends already. :(

[malaise]

31. My nephew also

made it home safe - physically anyway. Who knows the long term damage but we are thankful. He's out of the army and will head for college in the fall.

[MSgt213]

19. Trust me those transport helos are from the Vietnam Area they don't need

help from hostile fire to crash.

[atreides1]

48. So True

Had a friend who was a crew chief for a CH-46, he used to say that he knew something was wrong if there wasn't at least one hydraulic
leak.

[shadowknows69]

64. ever get the feeling

that iraq is where we're supposed to use up all of our older equipment so the DOD can order up lots of new defense contracts for shiny new helos and apc's

[One_Life_To_Give]

51. Ping

This needs to be repeated.

I thought these relics were supposed to be retired 10 years ago.

[Massachusetts]

27. I'll see YOU in Hell Chimpy!

:mad: :mad: :mad: Why are OUR Troops being misused like this. Wake the F%&$#ck America!

[bowens43]

28. Thank you mr pResident.

you have murdered 17 more Americans.

[The Backlash Cometh]

29. Dammit. Does that now make it 1389? Shit.

[leftchick]

65. I come up with 1417!!!

Icasualties has 1382 and add 35 more just in the last 24 hours.

fuck bush**!!!

[Benhurst]

32. No big deal. Plenty more troops where they came from. Civilians

don't count. MOVE ON!

Helicopters are easily replaced. MOVE ON!

How about that Super Bowl?

MOVE ON!

[Charles19]

62. Sad who they are getting for their crusade

I was recently on vacation and my wife was doing a lot of shopping. All the nice stores we went to you didn't see any recruiters at. She went to do some extreme bargain shopping at some stores low income or poor people would be shopping at and there were military recruiters talking to people there. Trying to get them to sign up. It is really sad the poor people are being recruited to fight the super riches battles for them. In Fahrenheit 911 it showed this and I thought it might have been an exageration but I saw it with my own eyes and it really hit me to how real it was. Not to mention the relatives we went to visit, one of them is just finishing training to go to Iraq.

Good thing we have a bold new perspective coming into take the healm at the State Department to fix the worst foreign policy in the history of the United States, oh wait.....

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

39. NBC has it at least 30 have died (for Bush's and Rice's lies....) n/t

[Blue Gardener]

12. Very sad

17 more families left without a son/daughter/husband/wife/parent.

[TomClash]

13. But they made the World safe for Democracy!

[leftchick]

15. and "for our freedoms"

:puke: :( :cry:

[saigon68]

20. Well Put LC

Good Morning Iraq-Nam

Time to get the Democracy flowing LOL

[catnhatnh]

55. your line is appropriate...

...but may I suggest Good MOURNING,Iraqnam?

[HysteryDiagnosis]

16. I feel safer.... do you feel safer now?? Now that arrogance, misplaced

loyalty, and corporate hegemony are running the wh... Yes.. I feel much safer now.

[IndianaGreen]

17. And the Senate is confirming one of the architects of this war today

That's 17 more dead bodies added to Condi Rice's bodycount.

[soup]

23. 'smoking guns and mushroom clouds' become smoking ruins

and a mushrooming death toll. Smile for the camera, Condi. Hey, george, watch this drive. No weapons of mass destruction? Guess we settle for mass destruction.

RIP troops. I'm so sorry. so angry.

[llmart]

21. Oh, well.....

it's "worth it" said the lying coward in the White House.

When, oh when, are the people in this country going to care????

[Skittles]

24. I am not sure they will ever care

as long as they are sporting stupid SUPPORT THE TROOPS stickers on their SUVs and that's pretty much all they feel the need to do

[malaise]

25. Add this guy to the list

Watch the smiling soldier in the last photo, although the one in the middle appears to be wondering what he is doing there.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7802.htm

[dweller]

26. abc morning news

just set the number at 30 (?). Is that a capacity for a helicopter?
did not specify marines/civilians, nothing. Just 30 dead in helicopter crash.


dp

[DoYouEverWonder]

33. They were all military

Meanwhile, US marines have launched a search and rescue operation after a helicopter crashed in western Iraq.

The aircraft, transporting personnel from the 1st Marine Division, came down near Rutbah, close to the border with Jordan, at about 0120 (2220 GMT).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4207907.stm

[leftchick]

34. Perhaps it is a Sea Knight transport?

A US Marine Sea Knight transport helicopter.

It looks like it can carry quite a few... :(

http://www.hqmc.usmc.mil/factfile.nsf/0/387b12923ec35d6f8525626e0048eada?OpenDocument

Crew:
Normal: 4 - pilot, copilot, crew chief, and 1st mechanic
Combat: 5 - pilot, copilot, crew chief, and 2 aerial gunners
Payload:
Combat: maximum of 14 troops with aerial gunners
Medical evacuation: 15 litters and 2 attendants
Cargo: maximum of 4,000 pound (2270 kilograms) external load
Introduction date: January 1978
Unit Replacement Cost: No current medium-lift replacement, would not replace.

Mission: The mission of the CH-46E Sea Knight helicopter in a Marine Medium Helicopter (HMM) squadron is to provide all-weather, day/night, night vision goggle (NVG) assault transport of combat troops, supplies, and equipment during amphibious and subsequent operations ashore. Troop assault is the primary function and the movement of supplies and equipment is secondary. Additional tasks are: combat and assault support for evacuation operations and other maritime special operations; over-water search and rescue augmentation; support for mobile forward refueling and rearming points; aeromedical evacuation of casualties from the field to suitable medical facilities.

[wildwww2]

103. Yes I have been in helicopters that would hold 30 people or more.

I don`t remember what model it was. But I do remember a captain telling me about one that was bigger than the one we were on. I think he called it a 57-J Sea Stallion. But that has been years ago I may be off on the name a little bit. I am not really into military equiptment. As I am into military fuck ups. Which is why Iraq interests me so.
Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President

[Roon]

30. abcnews.com saying 31 dead

http://abcnews.go.com/

[Stella_Artois]

35. What type ?

Any news on the type ? If it was a Chinook there could be more than 30 people on it.

Was it shot down or some type of failure ?

[peacebird]

36. WTOP is also saying 30 killed

no word yet on whether it was a mechanical failure or whether it was shot down.

[Ivote]

37. Out Of Camp Pendleton (sp)

The home base. Not known if it was shot down. Could be weather related. As per ABC news 8:00 am est
:kick:

[Stella_Artois]

43. Weather played a part

At least according to CNN.

Speculation has it being a CH-53, max of 40 souls on board.

RIP.

[TacticalPeek]

41. CH-53 Sea Stallion, says Jim Miklawhatsit on NBC.

Initial report is "not hostile fire".

Probably a combination of an old helo and bad weather.

[leftchick]

47. that doesn't make sense...

It does not appear to be able to carry that many....

http://www.globalaircraft.org/planes/ch-53_sea_stallion.pl


CH-53 Sea Stallion Specifications
Primary Function: Multirole heavy lifter/minesweeper
Contractor: Sikorsky Aircraft Corp.
Crew: Two pilots; one to six aircrewman, depending on mission.
Unit Cost: N/A
Powerplant
Three General Electric T64-GE-416 turboshaft engines (4,380 HP (3,266 kW) each)
Dimensions
Length: 99 ft (30.19 m)
Rotor Diameter: 79 ft (24.08 m)
Height: 28,4 ft (8.66 m)
Weights
Empty: 33,226 lb (15,071 kg)
Maximum Takeoff: 69,750 lb (31,640 kg) -- internal cargo
Performance
Speed: 195 mph (315 km/h)
Ceiling: 18,500 ft (5,640 m)
Range: 1,290 miles (2,076 km)
Armament
None; possible window mount provisions 7.62 mm and .50 CAL weapons or AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles

... and I call him Jim Miklawhatshit! :)

[lectrobyte]

70. if it can lift 16 tons "internal cargo", then 40 to 50 people on board

is not unreasonable.

This site http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/h-53.htm

says:

The helicopter seats 37 passengers in its normal configuration and has provisions to carry 55 passengers with centerline seats installed.

[leftchick]

75. thanks for the information...

Brig. Gen. Grange on cnn just said it was a Sea stallion as well.
I would think they would have stopped transporting so many soldiers at once like this after the last tragedy. War sucks!

[peekaloo]

83. that guy with the impossible last name is a Pentagon whore.

He reports what they want you to hear.

GE, we bring good things to LIES.

[caligirl]

102. Chinooks are Army CH-47's. Marines are Sea Knights CH-46's

Hubby flew sea knight 46's for years with the marines out of Hawaii.

[TacticalPeek]

38. A day that two guys in dress uniforms don't show up at your door

is a good day.




"Dr." Rice doesn't have kids, does she?

:grr:

[catmandu57]

45. No, but her husband has two

who will never see this shit, party on girls.
This morning icasualties stood at 1382 + 31 now 1413
FUCK YOU YOU GODDAMN FUCKING MORON.

[leftchick]

84. add 5 more to that for 1418!

4 marines in al anbar province killed in action

1 soldier in Tikrit roadside bomb on a convoy

:(

[BOSSHOG]

40. 31 Dead in Helicopter Crash

West of Baghdad per www.abcnews.go.com. No information given except the headline.

[bluestateguy]

42. I'm sure it was because of hostile fire

The Pentagon will say it was an "accident", but I will never believe this. And I urge the people at icasualties.org, who I know read, this website, to classify these casualties as hostile. Just because the Pentagon and the corporate owned media says something does not make it true.

[Stella_Artois]

46. Its a huge grey area imo

It may well not have been getting shot at, but perhaps the reason it was low and possibly fast may have been to avoid getting shot at, so it could be argued that its loss was a result of enemy action.

Whatever. They were young men and its very sad.

[MattNC]

94. Every time I think...

"We haven't had that many casualties in one day in a while", it happens again. :(

[Earth_First]

50. The confirmation hearing will dominate the media today...

This will appear as though it never happened. Sad.

[shadowknows69]

58. I'm sure they'll claim this is an accident

even if it isn't

[Cooley Hurd]

57. Goddamn it all...

CNN saying total casualties for yesterday is 35.:(:grr:

And Condi Rice will be confirmed today as our new SoS...:grr::grr:

[dweller]

81. the news anchor made it sound as if the 4 added

were killed in the rescue attempt of helicoptor 'accident'.


dp

[jman0]

128. did anybody check local weather reports?

In Jordan and western Iraq?
I forgot to. But since they are claiming bad weather, we should be able to disprove via satelite imagery or just local weather reports if anybody can find such.

[doxieone]

44. 31 on board killed! CNN

[babylonsister]

54. How horribly sad.

Dads, moms, brothers, sons, sisters, when will this shit end?

[doxieone]

49. Happened at 1:00 a.m. their time, about 5:00 p.m. ours. n/t

[SheepyMcSheepster]

52. terrible news

:(

[TacticalPeek]

53. CNN reporting 4 other Marines were killed in a separate incident.

In al Anbar.

[Democrat 4 Ever]

59. CNN just confirmed that 35 soldiers have died in Iraq in the

last 24 hours. 31 in the helicopter crash and 4 in a humvee crash. Does the escalation of casualties sound familiar? Viet Nam all over again. Is it going to take four more years for this madness to stop?

[leftchick]

66. 1417 DEAD US SOLDIERS IN bush** ILLEGAL OCCUPATION!!

when the fuck will it end???

[0007]

73. When Americans take to the street and strike against the system

for transparency against the war criminals and their crimes and to end this quagmire in the Middle East.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uncle ray]

98. you can lose the red state bullshit please

the republicans in your state are just as responsible, quit trying to pawn off the blame on "red" states.

[lebkuchen]

99. No, my state is not as responsible

California has nothing to do with the war in Iraq. It voted against the war in Iraq. As a matter of fact, California is trying to get Rice out of America's WH.

What's your state's involvement in attempting to reverse Bush's disaster?

[ultraist]

105. Red State-Blue State is an oversimplification that glorifies Bush

I live in NC and donated hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars to the Kerry-Edwards campaign. 1.5 million other Democrats in my state also made huge contributions and voted for Kerry.

Writing off MILLIONS of Democrats and lying by saying they support Bush, by using the inaccurate RState-BState model, that was crafted by a Repuke think tank, only supports the idea that Bush has a "mandate."

Guess, what? Bush does not have full support in all of the Red states! In my state for instance, there were 1.5 Kerry supporters and 1.9 Bush supporters. How many Bush supporters are there in your blue state?

[lebkuchen]

109. Show me the mass Bush protests

in the 31 states mentioned.

Or is there not yet enough evidence for those who live in the red states to warrant protest?

I protested with half a million Germans against Bush, and no German soldiers have been committed to Iraq. Why is it that the city of Berlin can drum up more protesters than any city in any red state I've mentioned?

Show me the red state protesters.

[girl gone mad]

122. Your state gave us Bush's idol, Reagan..

and major Bush enabler, Schwarzenegger.

Isn't Condaleezas from California, too? You've got culpability, just like the rest of us.

[lebkuchen]

136. Reagan is Jesus Christ next to Bush

You forgot Nixon. :)

[illuminaughty]

129. Why was Rome able to produce 3 million

protesters before the war and yet it was considered a massive turnout when half million marched in NYC at the Repub convention?

This country has forgotten how to take to the streets. Europe has never stopped. It is an entirely different mindset and it will not change until people are thrown out of their comfort zone in this country.

I live in a red state but my county and those around me in the metro
went "blue". And some of us have gone quite a ways beyond marching in the streets.

[lebkuchen]

135. The only areas that are ever going to go blue in a red state

are the university towns. Period. No education, no blue.

[SmileyBoy]

114. Exactly. Almost 115,000 voted for Kerry in my state.

The largest vote total for a Democratic presidential candidate in ND since Humphrey in '68.

[Sterling]

124. Kerry voted for the IWR, so it's the Blue States war too.

I wish it was not true but it is.

[hector459]

77. It's many more than that if the truth be told!!

You will never know the real number.

[Charles19]

67. Going to get worse

Reading about the conflict in Afghanistan against the Soviets in the 80's, fighters said the worst fighting was about 5 years into the battle. Look at the scenario in Iraq, Neo-cons are foaming at the mouth to attack Iran, if Iraq is bad enough there is 0 possibility for support from the people of the U.S. or the world economy to handle such an attack. Do you think Iran is going to go out of there way to stop a few good missiles or arms shipments from finding their way into Iraq? Iran doesn't want it to turn into complete chaos, they want the Shiites in power but it is completely in the interest of their survival as a regime to help give the U.S. one hell of a black eye there.

It is going to get worse.

[Scurrilous]

69. CNN Link:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/01/26/iraq.main/index.html


*Three car bombs within an hour killed five people and injured six others in Tamim province Wednesday, according to the police chief in Kirkuk.

*A U.S. soldier was killed Wednesday when insurgents attacked a combat patrol with grenades near Ad Duluiyah, military officials said.

*Four multi-national soldiers were wounded Wednesday when a car bomb exploded near a convoy in southwestern Baghdad, along the road to the city's airport, a source with the U.S. Army's 1st Cavalry Division said.

*Three Baghdad schools to be used as polling centers in Sunday's election were attacked Tuesday night, an Iraqi police officer said. A bomb planted at a fourth school was defused.

*Insurgents also attacked the offices of two political parties in Baquba on Wednesday, triggering clashes that left an Iraqi police officer dead and four others wounded -- three of them working as guards for the parties, Baquba police said.


*In al-Nahrawan, a southeastern suburb of Baghdad, city council leader Karim Sarhan was gunned down Wednesday morning in a drive-by shooting on his way to work, Iraqi police said.
Three government employees were shot and killed in attacks Tuesday, according to police.

[leftchick]

76. Good God that reads like 1968 VietNam

welcome to IraqNam 2005.

[leftchick]

63. omg... when you think it can't get worse...

:cry: That means 7 + 31 + 4 = 42 Dead in 2 days! omg

[Nitrogenica]

56. too many coffins for * to ignore! ...Oh wait he'll ignore them.

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

60. Stupid as it sounds

I hate to be political about this (ironic, on a political board), but if the Democratic Senators don't roast Condi Rice alive over this, there should be a full scale revolt by rank-and-file Democrats. Her lies were directly responsible for this god-awful mess that we're in, and she should be held accountable for those lives lost.

[leftchick]

68. I had the same thought...

I believe the Helicopter fatalities were from Pendleton. Barbara Boxer will have something to say!

[Danmel]

61. And today they'll reward Condi for her lies

All the Repubs, and Most of the Dems, will vote for her, with their "reservations' and their "concerns" and will doom how many thousands more to death for nothing? It is so sickening, there just are no words for it. This country has lost it's soul.

[leftchick]

71. U.S. military officials won't confirm the numbers!

No surprise there....

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - A transport helicopter crash in western Iraq (news - web sites) Wednesday killed 31 U.S Marines, CNN reported on Wednesday.

U.S. military officials in Baghdad said they could not immediately confirm the toll but acknowledged there were casualties.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

79. Let's just hope it doesn't rise

From Yahoo link posted below

"CH-53 Sea Stallion, which is normally configured to carry 37 passengers, but can take up to 55."

[leftchick]

101. you know if it does rise...

the Liars will lie about it.

[DelawareValleyDem]

72. 31 reported dead

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20050126/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_helicopter_crash

[hector459]

74. Damn this administration!!! If the Pentagon doesn't admit that this was

a shoot down, they won't even count these among the combat casualties.
Damn them to hell. Bring our soldiers home!!!

Under Saddam, Iraq was a secular nation. This election is going to usher in theocratic government that we will be fighting for the rest of our lives!

[suegeo]

78. 9.11, freedom, gassed his own people

There. Those slogans ought to shut us up. Don't be un-American and criticize this loss of life. The soldiers had to die because of Septemeber the 11th.

Mission accomplished. And now we need to fork over more money because major combat operations are over.

[Stella_Artois]

87. There's a lot of praying going on at Freeperville

They are in shock. Getting on your knees for the dead is a nice sentiment, but they shouldn't be dead in the first place.

[chiffon]

80. OMG...This is truly horrible. n/t

[lebkuchen]

82. I have tried, for the last four years, to make this otherwise.

I don't know what else I can do.

[Bethany Rockafella]

86. I'll bet all helicopters shot down are being reported as a crash.

Sorry, I don't trust this media.

[lebkuchen]

89. Not saying you're wrong but

the equipment is worn out, especially in these sandy conditions. The Bushies are not known for their ability to well-equip our military.

For all we know, it crashed because of contaminated fuel, the reason for the mutiny of those soldiers unwilling to perform their mission a few months ago.

[Stella_Artois]

91. Accidents sure do happen....

But its hard to put this one in the "Well it could have happened anyway" slot.

It seems they were flying low and at night, if they were not engaged in combat operations i don't know wether that high risk type of flying is common in places where the folks on the ground are well armed with RPG's and automatic weapons.

[MHalblaub]

96. 33 Helicopter lost at least 20 shot down in Iraq.

This figures according to the Brookings Institute.
Sorry no link found.

[jmcgowanjm]

132. Iraqi Resistance shoots down US helicopter, 31 Marines KIA ar-Rutbah

IRR Wednesday, 26 January 2005

The US forces also evacuated a large number of wounded troops. Other American vehicles, meanwhile, loaded up and hauled away the wreckage of the helicopter that had been scattered over an approximately two-kilometer area.

Local witnesses told Markarat al-Islam that they hoped the
Arab and Islamic news media would come and take pictures
of the extent of the losses, which are what the local
Resistance inflicts on the Americans every day. They said
that the Americans were forced to announce the downing of
this helicopter – something they seldom do –
because numerous delegations of people from Baghdad
and other provinces were scheduled to arrive in ar-
Rutbah Wednesday and some of them were bound to have
seen the crash or heard about
it.

a local amateur photographer managed to take a video of
the wreckage of the helicopter and hid it in his shoe
when passing through one of the checkpoints thrown up by
the Americans around the crash zone. The amateur
cameraman pledged to gave the film to the Mafkarat al-
Islam correspondent so still pictures from it can be shown
on the website as soon as the cassette arrives in the
editorial office. The photographer told the correspondent,
“If I knew that a satellite TVstation would broadcast it, I
would have given it to them, but unfortunately there’s
nobody else here that I can give the cassette
to.”

Centcom had to talk because MSM was coming
and pics had been taken-the only reason this got
out.

[jmcgowanjm]

92. Except that Centcom is putting out mixed signals

According to the initial investigation, the helicopter was not
shot down; rather it crashed due to a mechanical failure or
poor weather conditions.

So we know it wasn't shot down
but it was either of a couple of different things.

While conducting security and stabilization operations.
Which have been the code words for KIA.

Aren't these helos fitted w/ two way
communications. And the last communication was....

IRR comes out tomorrow. The story will come out
then.

http://www.cjtf7.com/media-information/January/050126c.htm

[jmcgowanjm]

95. And what happened w/ this ch53

August 14 04 Two U.S. Marines were killed when a CH-53 helicopter
crashed landed in the volatile Anbar province west of
Baghdad, the military said Thursday. Three other people
were injured in the crash Wednesday night. The military said
that no enemy fire was observed at the time. (These guys had no
two way communication either).

Resistance said they shot it down and attacked the marines
coming into evac the wounded

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/13/iraq/main635783.shtml

Assume that a battle is ongoing.
Assume that Apaches BlackHawks
involved.

Hit.
 
Resistance shoots down US helicopter, kills two-man crew.
 
Iraqi Resistance forces shot down a US helicopter over
the industrial works section in the eastern part of Hit at
4:25pm Saturday afternoon.  The craft landed on a
commercial store, totally destroying the establishment.

The Resistance in Hit has recently been able to shoot down
a number of US aircraft after declaring the city’s airspace
closed to US military
traffic

http://www.albasrah.net/moqawama/english/0105/iraqiresistancereport_220105.htm

Earlier this month, Gen. Mohammed Abdullah Shahwani, the director of the Iraqi intelligence service, said there are 200,000 insurgents, including at least 40,000 hard-core fighters (by hard core we're talking about SpezNatz trained Republican
Guard). The rest, he said, are part-time fighters and supporters who provide food, shelter, funds and intelligence.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_05/012405X.shtml


This isn't insurgency -it's war

[lebkuchen]

97. Great links

According to Bush's press conference, we're fighting terrorists. However, according to a DoD study published in the New York Times on November 24, 'Muslims do not hate our freedom, but rather they hate our policies."

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1129/dailyUpdate.html.

How do people who hate US policies equate to "terrorists?"

Inre:


- U.S. military fatalities from hostile acts have risen from an average of about 17 per month just after President Bush declared an end to major combat operations on May 1, 2003, to an average of 82 per month.

- The average number of U.S. soldiers wounded by hostile acts per month has spiraled from 142 to 808 during the same period. Iraqi civilians have suffered even more deaths and injuries, although reliable statistics aren't available.

- Attacks on the U.S.-led coalition since November 2003, when statistics were first available, have risen from 735 a month to 2,400 in October.


I can remember when attacks on US troops were 35 per day, and that seemed like a lot. Now we're over double that.

[jmcgowanjm]

100. From HeadBlast and read the DemocracyNow piece

with Matt Rothschild and Gore Vidal-
right on the mark.

Increasingly I find that I am seeing things as if from the view of
a future archaeologist, and I am analyzing why this
civilization fell. It's like staring paralyzed at a slow motion
car wreck, but on a vast scale, on the order of continental
drift.

http://www.davidcogswell.com/

[lebkuchen]

113. Vidal must be reading "The European Dream"

by Jeremy Rifkin.

The US is on a downslide, no question. I look forward to reading more of Hersch and how a handful of cultists have been able to wrestle the democracy from the people.

I watched NOVA recently, about Einstein. He lived through two world wars, coming out of them with no allegiance to a country or a religion. Imagine a world with no nationalism and no fundamentalism *sigh* Einstein was a pacifist and couldn't understand man's desire to kill other people. All he wanted to do was pursue his theories and observations, and find a unified theory of gravity.

The US today is far from that level of intellect. Heck, many Americans consider creation science a theory.

[jmcgowanjm]

131. Einstein Gets Visa 12/5/1932 He can now travel to the U.S.

You didn't have to be an Einstein to know what was
coming down then either.

I didn't know this-the Reichstag was burned
a week before elections.
Reichstag Burned   2/27/1933
Nazis win 44% of vote   3/5/1933

http://www.decades.com/Timeline/n/250_2686.htm

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

90. ...don't trust the media

or the Pentagon that spoon-feeds them their talking points.

[jmcgowanjm]

88. Flashback: US-Iraqi Battle for H-3 Air-Missile Base

Monday, both sides rushed reinforcements to the battlefield –
US Marines flew in by helicopter from Jordan’s Ruwayshid
base near the Iraqi border; fresh Iraqi troops were drawn off
from the air-ground H-2 base NE of Ar Rutbah. However,
early Wednesday, October 2, the clashes continued around
the crucial H-3 base complex.

General Tommy Franks’s request for permission to use the
air force to shoot the Iraqi transports down was denied.
The request, brought before the president, was turned down at
a White House conference attended also by vice
president Cheney, for fear that the discovery that the war
was already in force would embarrass the Bush team and
upset its efforts to win a mandate from Congress and get
a tough new resolution through the UN Security
Council.

http://www.drumbeat.mlaterz.net/October%202002/US-Iraqi%20battle%20for%20H3%20missile%20base%20100302a.htm

[DemonFighterLives]

93. Of course everyone will believe it was an accident

Big news, Train derailment in CA with many trapped. pRes. will be on to talk about his next 4.
Bloody Bastards!

[caligirl]

104. the 53 was from 1st Marine Division, thats out of Miramar in Southern

California. If it was a 53 echo, it has 3 engines, but a shot or mechanical problem with the tail rotor would cause it to crash. And it can carry 16 tons, 4-5 crew and 65 troops. So they weren't carrying a full load thank god.
My husband flew 46's and flew in squadrons with 53 pilots on cruise. A couple of his thoughts he asked me to share with you are that if its is a 53 involved, there were accidents with these in peace time that occurred often enough to bother most of us. Its old, even though the engines were updated years ago. They are huge and it isn't uncommon for them to crash from mechanical problems. Another thing that they may be doing is running the helos too much, to keep the accidents on the ground from road side bombs down. So helo mechanics are working too long and too hard, the pilots and crew chiefs are working too long and too hard and before you know it the inevitable happens. They over stretch manpower and resources and cause a crash like this. Just speculation though. Just thinking about all the bad press Rummy got for the lack of armor and stuff for the ground troops. He might have tried this.

[ultraist]

106. Bush's response: "We value life."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/01/26/bush.marines.ap/index.html
WASHINGTON (AP) -- President George W. Bush on Wednesday expressed sorrow at the loss of U.S. Marines in a helicopter crash in western Iraq and said the cause of the crash was being investigated by the Defense Department.

The CH-53 transport helicopter crash killed 31 people, officials said. The CH-53 is a mainstay of the Marine Corps for ferrying equipment and troops in western Iraq. It was the deadliest crash of a U.S. military helicopter in Iraq.

Bush was asked about the fatal crash during a White House news conference. "Listen, the story today is going to be very discouraging to the American people. I understand that. We value life and we weep and mourn when soldiers lose their life," he said. "But it is the long-term objective that is vital, and that is to spread freedom."

He said he didn't have details.

#####

BS, Bush values life! How DARE he say this today and call up the *pro-lifer* zealots the other day and state he promotes a "culture of life" while people are being mass murdered in Iraq.

[caligirl]

108. Go ahead Bush, finish driving people out of the service, being a pawn

drove us out. It will drive others out too. No one wants to think their committment to the military service is nothing more than a chess game for elite, cold hearted bastard.

[Twist_U_Up]

107. And the spin continues

Of course today they had to release this report to make it seem "less tragic"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1185161

[mcscajun]

110. Bush yammers on while casualties climb…

From today's press conference:

Bush: "We will honor the memories of their loved ones by completing our missions."

Q: "I'd like to ask you -- sir, I'd like to ask you about the deficit. But before I do that, there is a developing story this morning, the helicopter crash in Iraq. Can you tell us what you know about that, what may have caused it, and your reaction to it?"

Bush: "I know that it is being investigated by the Defense Department, and obviously any time we lose life it is a sad moment."
(snip)
"The story today is going to be very discouraging to the American people. I understand that. We value life. And we weep and mourn when soldiers lose their life."


I. Am. So. Fucking. Angry.

[The_Casual_Observer]

112. "And we weep and mourn when soldiers lose their lives"

Now watch this swing!

[HR_Pufnstuf]

111. 31 Killed in Marine Chopper Crash in Iraq

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - A U.S. military transport helicopter crashed during sandstorms in Iraq's western desert Wednesday, killing 31 people, all believed to be Marines, while insurgents killed five other American troops in the deadliest day for U.S. forces since the Iraq war began.

Militants waging a campaign to derail Sunday's election carried out at least six car bombings and a flurry of other attacks on schools to be used as polling stations, political party offices and Kurdish sites, killing or wounding more than two dozen people.

While al-Qaida warned Iraqis to stay away from the polls - saying they would only have themselves to blame if they are hurt in attacks - President Bush called on people to "defy the terrorists" and cast ballots in the crucial election.

A Bush administration official said the cause of Wednesday's crash was not immediately known but that there was bad weather at the time. An Accuweather map of Iraq showed sandstorms Wednesday in the western region of Iraq near the Jordanian border where the crash took place.

full:
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050126/D87RTR280.html

[theHandpuppet]

115. CNN confirming 37 dead today

That includes the 31 killed in the helo crash plus six others killed in other operations. No figures on wounded.

[Scurrilous]

116. Seven soldiers wounded in roadside bomb attack

http://www.navytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-619914.php

<snip>

"A pair of car bombs struck U.S. military convoys Wednesday on the dangerous road leading from Baghdad International Airport as insurgents appear to be stepping up attacks on American forces before Sunday’s crucial national elections in Iraq.

U.S. military officials said seven soldiers were wounded in the attacks, which came on the same day that 30 Marines and a sailor died in a helicopter crash in western Iraq."

<snip>

"About 10 minutes after the second blast Wednesday afternoon sent a ball of gray smoke mushrooming into the sky, soldiers already had evacuated wounded troops from the scene, leaving behind a Humvee wrecked by the explosion.

The front section of the vehicle had been destroyed, its hood blown off by the blast and wheels burned off. Bits of metal parts lay on the highway, mixed with bottles of Diet Pepsi apparently scattered by the blast."

[scarlett1]

117. Deadliest day in Iraq

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20050126/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_050126192052

[ignatius 2]

118. This makes me physically sick, all those lost lives, ours and the

Iraqis for the BFEE's vile war for oil and control of the Mideast.

Death,destruction,horror..the terrorists are in Washington DC.

[jdj]

119. meanwhile Rummy yammers on with his droll self answering

faux questions. On C-span NOW!

[KansDem]

120. "BRING IT DOWN...!!!"

Chimpy's new "battlecry"...:grr:

[daleo]

121. The election is nearing, so deaths will go up.

It is not surprising that deaths are going up. Troops have to be out on the streets to try to ensure the "election" can go forward, so there are lots more targets available.

It was obvious that nobody could be allowed to die around the time of Bush's inauguration. Are the increased "accidental" deaths related? That's 36 dead in accidents in two days (helicopter and Humvee into the canal). These are things that make you wonder.

[osaMABUSh]

123. There are no accidents - every death is directly or indirectly

a result of this tragedy Bush lead US into.

On the canal accidents, there is no way they drive into a canal unprovoked. Way too many traffic 'accidents'.

[KamaAina]

125. 27 of the dead Marines apparently based in Hawai'i

Kane'ohe Marine Corps Base on O'ahu.

http://starbulletin.com/breaking/breaking.php?id=3211

Twenty-seven Kaneohe-based Marines were among the 31 servicepeople killed today in a helicopter crash in Iraq, U.S. Sen Daniel Akaka confirmed.

"I am deeply saddened by this event — I am stunned that so many lives were lost in a single incident," Akaka, D-Hawaii, said in a news release.

As well he should be. By comparison, all of O'ahu had 68 traffic fatalities in all of 2004 (as of Dec. 22). :(

[TacticalPeek]

126. From 20 Jan 93 to 20 Jan 01 there were four US marines KIA.

One in Operation Restore Hope, Somalia, 26 Jan 93.

Two in Federal Building Bombing, Oklahoma City, 19 Apr 95.

One in terrorist bombing of US Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya, 7 Aug 98.


During Clinton's two terms, half of the Marines KIA were murdered by a right wing asswipe (who will kill no more).

Just saying.

[NYC]

127. Low rating on this Yahoo article:

You have given the news article 37 Troops Killed in Deadliest Day in Iraq a rating of 5.

Its current average rating is 2.90 with 1402 votes.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20050126/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_050126192052

They have 2 photographs there. One is the armored vehicle mangled by a roadside bomb. The other is a smiling C. Rice.

[Stella_Artois]

130. I found this interesting

its a post from a different forum i read from time to time

Ever flown a helicopter in a desert environment? I have, in DS/S, and rode in quite a few in OIF. Not that you couldn't be right, but the assumption that more die because the helicopter is shot at is probably not correct.

The CNN report I read said it was possibly weather related. it also said that they crashed around 0120. So, weather and night flight...an even worse combination.

I'll make the assumption that they were flying with NVG's, which limit the field of view for the pilots, and is one of the most demanding modes of flight. NVG's also have a unique characteristic of being able to see through (to a limited degree) haze and fog. But they can't penetrate the dense stuff, and therein lies the problem....you can see enough to get into it, but when you get into the really thick stuff it's too late, you're already in. This is called "inadvertant IMC (Instrument Meteorological Conditions)". When you "go IIMC", you transition to your instruments and execute maneuvers to fly out of it. Now, my experience is based on much smaller helicopters that are not rated for instrument flying conditions, but the facts remain, in transitioning from being able to see through the NVG's to having to fly by instruments, there is a brief period that is highly susceptible for the pilots to become disoriented - especially if they were in a turn when they lost visual contact with the ground. It would take me hours to explain all the visual and perceptive illusions that can occur, so you'll have to trust me. Now, if they are flying very low, in a turn, punch into the clouds, it's possible that they got spatially disoriented, where up is perceived as down, etc, and flew it into the ground.

Sandstorms have that effect too, except the NVG's DON'T see through the light stuff as well because the sand particles are much bigger and are made of solid material that the NVG's can't penetrate. And, sandstorms can whip up at a moments notice.

Another problem with NVG's is that (unless they have a "HUD" system built in) you can't cross-check your instruments as well, even though it is much more critical to do so. Try driving your car at night while looking through two toilet paper tubes and keep a steady speed. You can't do it without consciously and deliberately looking in, looking out, looking in, etc. That's what they have to do, constantly.

Now the scenario is set....and you're flying along at say, 80-100 mph (aircraft use knots, but for ease of understanding) under NVG's. You're in a slight descent, but aircraft rise and descend slightly all the time while you make minor adjustments (try holding an exact speed on the highway without cruise control - you're always making adjustments....same thing). You look out at the horizon and it's flat with no terrain to give you reference to how high you actually are, you only know by your instruments. What you don't realize is that the ground is rising in your path, but looks flat as a pool table in your goggles, again, because there are no visual references to tell you the terrain is rising. So at 80-100 mph, ground rising, aircraft in a slight descent, and you're flying at say, 100 feet AGL (above ground level) how long do you think it takes to hit the ground if you don't notice the proble and correct for it? Now throw in the fog and/or dust problem which suddenly takes away your visual horizon, try to transition to instruments, recipe for disaster. Exactly what happened to two friends of mine in DS/S, fortunately both happened to walk away.

At 80-100 mph (BTW, the CH-53 has a cruise speed of around 170 mph), do you think there could be any survivors? All military helo's are designed with crashworthy properties, but you can't build them to withstand everything.

So, could've been hostile fire, could've been weather. Both can be equally dangerous. The crash investigation will reveal the speculative cause. And, in no sense am I criticizing the pilots - this shit happens to the best and the worst of them - sometimes things go wrong and everything you do right just makes it worse. Murphy's Law.

So for reference, imagine taping two toilet paper tubes to a pair of sunglasses, getting in your car and out on the highway, trying to maintain a steady speed for an hour or so while talking on your cell phone and holding a conversation with your passengers (to simulate radio calls - my aircraft had five radios that two of us had to monitor). Oh, and add rain to give you the same fuzzy effect you get in weather under NVG's. Then you will have a slight idea what the conditions are like.

Aviation 101.

RIP to our fallen brothers in arms.

And, before I forget,

Quote:
Leave the politics to the politicians, because in the end, like most soldiers say, you arent fighting for any cause, you are fighting for your comrades and to make sure that everyone of them, as well as you, make it back in one piece.


Amen to that. I left a fifteen month tour in Baghdad this past July, and I'll tell ya, I can't think of a single soldier who gave a flying f**k about a politician. It ain't about the country's cause, it ain't about political beliefs, it's about receiving an order and executing it. It's about making it home to your family. It's about making sure your buddy gets home to see HIS family. I spent more time worrying about whether my wife had enough money to pay bills, her peace of mind, how she was handling the 15 month separation, how my soldiers were doing, their state of mind, were they prepared for the next mission than I ever did thinking of politics. The only time I ever spent thinking about politics was when some senator or congressman would come visit so they could get a little PR for putting themselves in "harms" way and visiting the troops. And the only reason I thought about that was because that usually meant our chow hours would be f**ked up because for some reason, they all want to eat a meal with our guys, and the security folks would block off time or space for them.

Apologize for the long post, and again, RIP my brothers.

-CZ

[SheepyMcSheepster]

133. enlightening post

thanks for it and thank you for your service.
:hi:

[Stella_Artois]

134. Just to make it clear

Its a post i have copied from a military forum i read from time to time, they are not my words and i don't serve.

I did think it was an interesting insight into the conditions prevailing at the time.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

137. thanks

hehe, i guess i skimmed the first few lines before i really started reading through the post.

thanks for the clarification.

[NYC]

138. Thank you. That was extremely interesting.

:hi: