U.S. tops in school spending, but not in scores

[Nottingham]

U.S. tops in school spending, but not in scores
Associated Press

WASHINGTON -- Given its investment in education, the United States isn't getting the return it expects when compared with the performance of other nations, a report shows.

Among more than 25 industrialized nations, no country spends more public and private money to educate each student than the United States, according to an annual review by the Paris-based Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.

But American 15-year-olds scored in the middle of the pack in math, reading and science in 2000, and the nation's high-school graduation rate was below the world average in 2001.

"The countries that spend more tend to be the countries that do better. But ... it's not a perfect relationship," said Barry McGaw, the organization's education director. "There are countries which don't get the bang for the bucks. And the U.S. is one of them."

Education Secretary Rod Paige, chosen by President Bush to oversee the nation's public school reforms, said the results confirm that schools here have grown complacent, and that a new law tying federal spending to school performance will help. Other countries, he said, are moving ahead while the United States remains "mired in internal education politics and mediocrity."

more...

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/2103491

You watch Bush is going to want to cut education funds even more
meanwhile give 87 Billion to Iraq! :puke:

[mbperrin]

1. Too much money going to Pearson

a Carlyle company, for these fucking tests! and not enough for classroom textbooks and supplies!

[Nottingham]

2. Texas has those TAAS tests which are ridiculous

and one of the problems with them is it dumbs down the rest of the other kids! It ridiculous to waste our kids time teaching them to pass a test!

The schools put so much time and energy in passing these tests because if they DON't it could mean their jobs so instead of teaching a subject they teach for the tests! :bounce:

[madrchsod]

3. news from the front

my daughters high school has a clever way to raise scores..don`t do your homework-no grade and 3pts that count toward a "saturday school" so you lose your grade and get punished so the message is do your homework or your going to get double punished.also if you get an "in school" detention you have to sit all day and read something..you`re not allowed to do school work and you get a zero for all your classes- wow that`s going to make them learn..they also have to pass gym to graduate,she`s taking two her senior year,if she doesn`t pass- no graduation. the teachers usually give an extra three pts. if they bring something to class the teachers want...i think my daughters problem is she`s to much like daria...

[Rose Siding]

4. This is so bogus

What the cost of living in Turkey, Mexico, the Slovak Republic and Poland? Don't you figure the education dollar goes a different distance in those countries?

[kalash477]

5. questions about education in other industrialized countries

im curious how much those other countries insist on standardized testing. do they have rigorous testing throughout all grades or do they give freer reign to the schools/communities/teachers ? and also; do teachers recieve better wages in the other countries? do they have smaller classes? basically is the money going towards different things in the other countries than it is in the usa. just curious.

[DannyRed]

6. Funny how

The US spends more per capita than other nations on Education, and has a worse education system....

And at the same time the US spends more per capita on health care than any other Nation and has a worse health record and various mortality and sickness and preventable disease rates...

And at the same time the US spends more on Policing and Jails, and has more people in prison than any other nation, and has a higher crime and violence rate.

Is ANYONE starting to get the picture?

As for the question about other nations' schooling systems? They pay their teachers better, they put more money into educational infrastructure, they lay out a strict and uniform curriculum, and they put a LOT of effort into making sure that succeeding in school is considered "cool"...they also spend a lot of time on the students, on the relationship between learning and environment, and on structuring the school environment and the curriculum to meet needs.

The results are students who have EXCELLENT basic educations...

What many other nations do NOT teach, that American schools DO somehow instill, is the ability to break boundaries and think outside boxes.

The rigor of other Nations' schools sacrifices the "free thinking" that SOME students benefit from in the US.

The two philosophies need to be combined.

[tkmorris]

7. I am somewhat intrigued

by your notion that other countries produse students who perform better on standardized tests, while American schools produce students that are better at "thinking outside of boxes".

I suspect you may be on to something there but I would like to hear from you what leads you to that conclusion.

[DannyRed]

11. I have worked with

numerous students/reearchers/professors at College, Grad, and Post-Grad levels in scientific research (I am a geologist) and have taught University-level geology in America, and tutored in Japan, where I now work at the University of Tokyo...I have also participated in numerous international research programs, in Denmark, Mexico, Russia, Japan, Greenland (Danish, French, Russian, German, and American students, postgrads, and researcher/professor types).

[kalash477]

8. not that bad

If our schools are so bad how come we have consistently been at the forefront of the technology revolution? Many more scientific discoveries and technological inventions consistently come out of this country than any other. Sure we are bigger and richer than any body else and have the best higher learning institutions in the world, but I still dont think that we would be at such the forefront of the scientific and technological world if our educational system was as bad as everyone make it out to be.

[Selwynn]

9. Hypothesis....

our primary education is in some trouble. However, for those fortunate enough to make it there, our college level education and beyond is (or can be) tops.

In short I think we "catch" up to the rest of the world in continuing education. My public education wasn't that great. But my college education was, and I'd like to think I came out pretty well educated overall. :)

PS - good colleges is no excuse for failing public schools, just wanted to make that clear

[DannyRed]

12. My closest friends are teachers in

Both High School and University, in numerous locations across the US.

99% of them say that our public education (AND private education) system is on (or over) the brink of disaster.

My experience teaching in an elite University, and then doing the same in a university abroad, as well as the experiences of my colleagues (and MY OWN deficiencies) have led me to conclude the same.

American students, in general, as a broad group, DO HAVE the initiative and desire to break down boundaries and cross disciplines...trying to connect apparently disparate facts or ideas...however, they LACK the fundamental training, the basis, the foundation to be able to do so with any rigor.

"Foreign students", specifically French, English, Chinese, Japanese, Indian, German, Danish, Swede, Norwegian, and etc (Basically OECD and "large economy" nations) DO HAVE an overall excellent grounding in the basics, but LACK the desire, initiative, or training to break disciplinary boundaries in the same way that "generalized American Students" do.

[DannyRed]

13. Ummmmm

Many more scientific discoveries come out of the US?

Not entirely true.

And, in general, where that is true, I would point to the large number of "American" inventions that were discovered by foreigners working here.

Why is it so?

Cold War Military Budgets for Research Centers. Full Stop.

I think that if you do a complete rundown of invention and innovation and scientific discovery, you will find that the US is not so "superior" as you think.

Where was the laser invented?

Where was the first offshore drilling rig invented?

Who invented the downhole log for oil and water drilling exploration?

And so on.

[Paschall]

10. DannyRed, I don't know what foreign schools you've attended

But the picture is not quite as rosy as you paint it.

I think most European schools do probably offer very fine educations, but facilities and teachers' pay may not be what you imagine. There are wide disparities even between the rich EU nations like Germany and France. And most European schools are still heir to a rigid educational hierachy: Early tracking at 13-14 into vocational, scientific, or literary curricula with almost no possibility of changing track once that decision is made; a single end-of-high-school exam for college entrance with only two or three shots at passing, and if you fail you have no chance of entering a public university, etc.

Which brings us to "thinking outside the box": It may be that European schools' "failure" to instill that merely reflects the structure of the educational system itself. It may also be that your perception here is rooted in very American notions about the individual and individuality. Meanwhile, though, I can assure you European schools do strive to achieve a related--though perhaps contrary--goal of instilling a sense of solidarity (that's the fraternité in the French Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité). But that's another thread.

Otherwise, though, I agree totally with you. We think if we throw the most money at an issue, we've got it under control. We're paying for the best so that's what we think we're getting for our dollars. Too bad it's not necessarily true.

[DannyRed]

14. I know a little...

"I think most European schools do probably offer very fine educations, but facilities and teachers' pay may not be what you imagine."

They are better than most of the US.

The money we spend is misspent.

"And most European schools are still heir to a rigid educational hierachy"

That was my point. Instilling the basics to a fault...Higher scores on standard international tests for Germany, France, England, China, Japan, Sweden, Norway, Finland, and so on.

As for my "Foreign Experience", see above. I have lived, worked, researched, and been involved in academic endeavor all over the world...25 countries over the last ten years, longish stints in Indonesia, Denmark, 3 years in Japan, and several month-long stints in several other countries.

And, years of working with numerous foreign and American students/researchers/professors/professionals in various capacities...

[Fovea]

19. Educational metrics

like all systems of evaluation only measure what the designers thought important to measure. There is a saying in medicine, 'if you don't want to find a fever, you won't take a tempature.' We have a difficult job making children understand the value of learning over other activities because our culture shows them who *really* makes it big-- stars of movie screens, CD's, and basketball courts. I fear that we are going to get a metrics heavy system, with a failure to teach concepts over data.

In those other nations, fear of failure is an awful burden placed on children. There is a happy medium, but it will not be cheap, or private.

[playahata1]

21. You say:

<<<Educational metrics, like all systems of evaluation only measure what the designers thought important to measure.>>>

You are so right. A lot of educational theorists (and social scientists) -- many of whom have never set foot in a classroom -- cannot see beyond those systems of evaluation. As a friend of mine, a professor of social work (and once a practicing social worker who'd worked with teenage parents), once put it: "(Researchers) are so big about their conclusions and their statistics, etc. If you (the subject being evaluated) do anything that contradicts, doesn't fit in with their statistics, they'll say that THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOU." (emphasis mine as well as hers)

Too many educators in the country feel that students must be a certain way in order to be "successful" students. They feel that students have to measure up to this particular statistic in order to be considered "educated."

No wonder so many kids in this country are turned off by school. All in all, I think people's priorities when it comes to education are screwed up. Education is much, much more than something on a piece of paper that supposedly tells you that you are "competent," let alone "educated." Peace.

[Nottingham]

20. Danny! Great points! My relatives in Germany teacher asked me

about the creative programs being taught in our grade schools

Especially the Gifted programs they are very interested in them

America is in the forefront of those programs but alas the Republicans have slashed these programs

Luckily my kids had these great programs. Europe doesn't have these
and are now seeing the definite need of that creative child who says
Wow I have an idea!! and is giving that support to try it out! Rather than a teacher who says this is the WAY its DONE! Shut UP stoopid!

:bounce: Europe is waking up!....and we are going to sleep!

[DannyRed]

24. It's kinda like

healthcare in that sense...no one doubts or questions the fact that the US is basically on the forefront of high-end, cutting edge medical research and innovative treatments or procedures...

But when it comes to the basics, the staples of a coherent, wide-ranging, fundamental system for ensuring the best possible overall health care, our system falls dangerously short.

Same thing as education.

No one questions that CalTech, MIT, or what have you are the best in the world...the problem is earlier, younger, more basic.

We MUST develop a system that does BOTH -- encourage and push the brilliant ones, and provide the basics and fundamentals for EVERYONE -- at the same time.

I think multi-age, semi-self-directed, mixed classrooms with more teachers, more resources, and BOTH results based AND philosophically sound educational systems is the best way.

Set the students a problem...let them work the problem themselves, both solo and as a group. Encourage cooperation. Provide the materials necessary to give background and support.

At particular times, based on either the problem itself, or on the questions that arise from that problem, enter into "standard formal lecture" mode to address the fundamental questions that arise as a result of the problem itself.

[Art_from_Ark]

15. I wonder how they make this conclusion:

"Among more than 25 industrialized nations, no country spends more public and private money to educate each student than the United States, according to an annual review by the Paris-based Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development."

What do they base their expenditures on?

Take the example of Japan. If Little Takeshi's mother spends 8000 yen per month on private English lessons for her son, does that count, and if so, how is that 8000 yen converted?

If Little Hitomi's mother spends ¥5000 yen per month on piano lessons, and ¥4000 yen/month on swimming lessons for her daughter, is that 9000 yen total counted as part of the private education package?

If Yoko goes to calligraphy school for 3000 yen per month, and to a private tutorial school for 7000 yen per month, and her mother spends 3000 yen per month on educational materials from private companies, and then spends 50,000 yen to send her daughter on a class trip, is all that counted as private expenditures?

[denverbill]

16. This is a ridiculous comparison, imo.

Why not just look at public funding ONLY? If you spend $3000 in public funds to educate one kid, and $23,000 to educate another kid in an elite private school, the average is $13,000 spent. Does the kid with the $23,000 get 7 times better an education? No, I don't think so. Would you have been better off spending $13000 per student equally? Probably.

Break it down by public spending only and lets see where we place.

[Paschall]

22. This link might help you find what you're looking for

Someone (SoCalDem?) posted this great link for comparing international stats: www.nationmaster.com

[Lydia Leftcoast]

17. Cultural factors are important

As Art implied, Japanese parents by and large place a strong emphasis on their children being academically accomplished and culturally aware.

The conventional wisdom among the Japanese middle class is that every child needs extra tutoring to succeed in school and should have some sort of extra-curricular activity for personal enrichment. The conventional wisdom among the American middle class is that every child needs to be on a sports team.

The first time I saw the "summer camp preview" section of the Oregonian and realized that thousands of middle class people must be paying good money to send their moderately athletic children to basketball camp, baseball camp, football camp, tennis camp, or soccer camp to "polish their skills." Why should a child who has no hope whatsoever of a pro career devote two weeks to intensive skills polishing in a sport? Wouldn't the child be better off both emotionally and intellectually just spending a lazy summer playing impromptu games with other kids in the neighborhood (assuming they weren't off at soccer camp), reading, exploring a hobby, or going on family outings to local places of interest?

You get what you promote. If you promote intellectual achievement and cultural awareness, that's what you get. If you promote sports and being in fashion, that's what you get.

(A bit of the American ethos is creeping into Japan, though. You hear reports of kids sassing or even attacking the teachers and refusing to study, something which would have been unheard of twenty-five years ago when I first went there.)

[Seneca]

18. link here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=117094

[JCMach1]

23. Typically these studies haven't included HIGHER ED money

The U.S. education system tends to pump money at the top end of the system, not the body.

A fairer study would look at distribution of funding.

[JCMach1]

26. I should have said HAVE included higher ed money

:spank:

[Cat Atomic]

25. It's not per capita, I think they're measuring absolute dollars.

Which is stupid. It's like saying Russia spends more money on surf boards than Pango Pango does.

The US is ranked something like 47th in education spending.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/edu_edu_spe

*edit*- hmm... they say they're counting per student. But I don't see how they could possibly get that result without cooking the numbers somehow.

[StopThief]

27. Ummmm. . . . . .

"Among more than 25 industrialized nations, no country spends more public and private money to educate each student than the United States, according to an annual review by the Paris-based Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development."

[Cat Atomic]

29. Yeah- I noted that in my post.

.

[pschoeb]

33. Your link, is percentage of GDP

The US has a fairly high GDP, so if the US has higher per capita GDP than Moldova who ranks first in percentage of total GDP spent on education, the actual amount of GDP per capita spent on education might be(and is ) higher in the US.

Moldova spends 10.3% of its GDP on education. Moldova's GDP is 11 billion dollars, per capita GDP is $2840.00, education spending is therefore per capita $292.00.

US spends 4.7% percent of it's GDP, the US's GDP is 10.4 trillion, per capita GDP is $37,000, education spending per capita is $1729.00

So even though Moldova ranks #1 in education by percentage of GDP spending, I don't think anyone is going to rush over there to send their kids to school.

It's also not clear if this link's education spending amount is only public spending or public and private.

Patrick Schoeb

[pschoeb]

28. You need to look at Average and Median

My guess is that in other countries, the Average and Median are closer, meaning that more students recieve higher amounts of money.

For example if the US has an average of $10,240 per student from elemetary thru college in 2000(and JCMach is right about US higher ed spending), but a median of say $3,000 per student(this is hypothetical), we could know that some small number of students who spend vast amounts on their education are skewing the data.

The Data for 2000 shows the average spent on Public education was $6,911 per student and the Median was $6,530. That means private education spending must be quite high, as private schools acount for only 10% of all students. The Median value for all US students is probably in the upper $6,000 range

At the $6911 level, the US would be at the average for all the 25 industrial countries, and therefore scores in the middle of the pack would be expected.

Patrick Schoeb

[Turley]

30. One thing the may have missed

In America Youth sports are part of the school system which means the study may have included spending for the associated costs of those programs (imagine what the sports budget is for a typical high school).

In Europe Youth Sports are at the club level and would not be included in any Education budgets. Not sure if this issue was addressed in the study but it represents a huge amount of money.

[Heitie]

31. An excellent point

I'd be interested to see some numbers on that.

What else is included, I wonder. New band uniforms? Materials for the homecoming parade floats? (not to detract from their importance, mind you)

[pschoeb]

32. I'm not sure on exact figures

But have seen variation for extracurricular activities from $20 to $600 per pupil, and probably not over 10% of the total per pupil spending. This usually would not include facilities costs and maintenance.

Patrick Schoeb