Chavez foe accused of treason with U.S. aid

[Robbien]

By Brian Ellsworth
SPECIAL TO THE WASHINGTON TIMES
Published January 27, 2005

CARACAS, Venezuela -- A leading organizer of last year's bid to unseat President Hugo Chavez has been charged with treason amid accusations that she accepted U.S. government funding from the National Endowment for Democracy.

As director of the civic group Sumate, Maria Corina Machado helped organize three petition drives to recall Mr. Chavez, leading to a failed referendum in August.

State prosecutors have invoked an 80-year-old law to charge Miss Machado and two other Sumate leaders with "conspiring to destroy the republican nature of the country," saying they received $31,000 from the endowment. A trial has not been scheduled, but is expected to begin in the next few weeks. Miss Machado faces 16 years in prison if convicted.

"The reason for giving all that money was to end the Chavez government," said legislator Nicolas Maduro. "If the Venezuelan government financed organizations to topple the Bush administration, I'm sure we would face life sentence in prison."

http://www.wpherald.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20050127-090946-6935r

[ck4829]

1. More Bush Evil

[Larkspur]

2. Good for Chavez! Those that took US money to topple his government

should be charged with treason and seeing that the US is trying to us Columbia and bribe Venezuelan troops to stirr up trouble, Chavez needs to take a hard line on this.

[hector459]

27. Almost like the journalists who took money to topple this government?

Republicans have the money and they use it to achieve their goals.

[cthrumatrix]

38. read Confession of an Economic Hitmen - the book the govt does NOT

want you to read...this is standard operating procedure

[HuckleB]

41. Yes, "Confessions of An Economic Hit Man" is THE must read of the year.

Alas, it has gotten far too little publicity.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

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[Alpharetta]

4. Bravo for your support of U.S. attempts to thwart democracy in Ven

You probably think it was OK for Bush's administration to back the coup leaders.

Bush has no respect for democracy in Venezuela.

[el_gato]

5. What are you talking about?

Do you know what the NED is?

He was democratically elected, but hey, I guess you don't care.

[Robbien]

7. Bush was the one who decided elections in Venezuela don't count

and put $4 million dollars of our taxpayer money into overthrowing Chavez and putting in a BushCo puppet.

If you want to point fingers at who is paying money (ours by the way) to overthrow democracy in Venezuela, look at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

[Bono71]

8. Was thinking the same thing...just blame the US and no one will

bat an eyelash.

Can someone that know more than me about Venezuela confirm one way or the other, was the referendum Constitutionally valid (not the results, but the actual procedure) or not? What I mean is, is Venezuela like California where there is a sort of recall procedure built into the law?

[Robbien]

10. Constitutionally, yes. But having it be funded by US taxpayers was not.

That is what this lawsuit is all about.

[Bono71]

14. Is it a civil lawsuit or criminal prosecution? n/t

[Robbien]

19. She is being charged with treason. That is a federal offense.

Since the State Prosecuters have FOIA documents from the US which prove the funding for the recall came from US taxpayers, this lady will probably be in jail a very long time.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

16. If the money came from the NED. Who should get the blame, Al-Qaida?n/t

[Sandpiper]

9. Yeah, damn that Chavez

He gets so uppity about the U.S. trying to overthrow him and interfere in the governmental affairs of his country.

Hasn't he read the Monroe Doctrine? The western hemisphere belongs to us.

[Bono71]

18. Serious question, have we admitted trying to overthrow Chavez...

I wouldn't doubt it if we did try, but I also don't have much faith in Chavez.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

20. "We", damn bro. Were you part of the plot?

Say it ain't so.

But seriously now, since when do criminals admit to their crimes? It took Senator Church's comission a lot of work to get a little bit of a confession about past crimes. He got a white-washed version of events that took place, and the rest is history. What happened to him you ask? He was defeated in his re-election bid. A lot of money for his opponents campaign came from out of state. He seemed to be a good civil servant. I wonder why the rush to get rid of him. You see, it's not popular to tell the truth about the US govt. Maybe we'll find out years from now who was behind what. It always seems that way. Most of the time though we never find out the truth. What do you think?

[WCGreen]

152. Frank Church died very young as well.....

[Robbien]

24. Well, the FOIA documents say we did. Bush did his usual "shrug"

and the US controlled press said okay, Bush shrugged.

[Solon]

94. When the base of operations is in the United States...

I would think that it is obvious that our government is complicit in the coup attempt.

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2004/608/608p19.htm

[Judi Lynn]

98. Excellent article. Who could forget the threat named in it?

Otto Reich broadcasting his observation that he wouldn't like to be in Hugo Chavez' shoes right now? The multiple calls for Hugo Chavez' assassination from the Venezuelan opposition community holed up in Miami with the Miami right-wing extremists, the refusal of _Bush's administration to cooperate with extradition proceedings against some of the criminals hiding out here? Can you imagine the howl <sub>Bush would put up if he were denied complete satisfaction in ANY area he pursued?

The article covers a lot of ground. Thanks for posting it.</sub>

[0007]

145. I'd say so!!

The Cuban newspaper Granma featured an article in its November 22 online edition entitled “Miami-Caracas: Expansion of the terrorist wave”. The article points out that Miami, which also houses anti-Cuban terrorists, is now home to a growing number of strongly anti-Chavez wealthy Venezuelans. This includes a number of those wanted in Venezuela for their role in the coup. The US has so far ignored calls from Venezuela to have those facing charges extradited.

The article claims: “It is no secret that Florida, together with Costa Rica, the Dominican Republic and Colombia, are the four points selected by the Venezuelan opposition to conspire against the Bolivarian process. But the main bases for military and terrorist training are in Miami. With the consent of the US government, the F-4 Commandos training the Venezuelan coup plotters are centred there.”

[tkmorris]

11. Hypothetical question

What do you think would happen if it was discovered that say, the MoveOn Pac had been working to get rid of Bush using monies donated by say, Fidel Castro? You think the US Justice Dept might take an interest in that?

The NED has been doing stuff like this for years, all over South America especially. Read up on them, knowledge is power.

[Bono71]

17. If any foreign money, including money from the US was spent

on the election (and this is against the law in the Venezuela, which I assume, it is) then the person should be prosecuted.

However, I am wondering what human rights groups will say about this...It seems convenient for Chavez to blame the US in order to lock up potential political foes because the US is the boogeyman to many in the region (for obvious reasons).

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

23. They'll say nothing, because the Ven. govt. is handling the matter with

restraint and respect for the Law.

[Igel]

26. So this should apply to Yushchenko? n/t

[Robbien]

28. I believe yes it should.

Our taxpayer money went into overturning the election. Of course Russian money was pumped into the other side, but that does not excuse our interference.

[Igel]

149. At least you're consistent.

And that's not an insult by any means.

[Minstrel Boy]

39. There seems no hoop you won't jump through to blame Chavez.

You say if foreign money was accepted, the person should be prosecuted.

You acknowledge that's the law in Venezuela.

You admit the US is rightly viewed as a regional "boogeyman."

So this is Chavez's fault, how?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

40. You're talkinng to a ghost my friend. ; - ) n/t

[TahitiNut]

12. It's so refreshing to read defenses of Bushoilini hegemonistic ...

... predation against liberal democracies in the Western hemisphere. (not) :eyes:

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

15. Bwwwwaaaahaaahaaahaaaahaaaa!!!!!!! n/t

[Judi Lynn]

6. Maduro's right. Bush'd make short work of someone working to overthrow him

who took money from another government. It's illegal here, too.

From the article:

But U.S. lawyer and pro-Chavez activist Eva Golinger, who accessed documents through the Freedom of Information Act, said the endowment's support was part of a broader campaign to bolster the Venezuelan opposition.

"It's not a coincidence that almost all of NED financing in Venezuela has gone to opposition groups," Miss Golinger said. "The funds that went to Sumate were part of the same pattern. They were meant to help remove President Chavez from office, not to promote democracy."
(snip)

On edit, to add:

There are several US statutes which criminalize the injection of foreign intervention and foreign funding into our political process. Do you believe that foreign governments can freely pour money into our political parties, or that organizations here can receive money from enemy nations for the purpose of “regime change” here in the States? They can’t.
(snip)

http://www.pitt.edu/~ttwiss/irtf/cuba.letter4.html

[Judi Lynn]

13. She's been a busy woman. Makes trips to Washington.

An article grabbed in a short run to google:

Published: Sunday, March 07, 2004
Bylined to: Patrick J. O'Donoghue


Sumate's Maria Corina Machado in Washington for consultations; cash?

Venezuelan opposition Sumate director, Maria Corina Machado is in Washington on what her minders' call a very tight schedule and her detractors a visit to collect more National Endowment for Democracy (NED) cash for anti-government activities.

On Saturday, Machado met members of the Lucha Democratica group resident in the USA, allegedly consisting of former Venezuelan Ministers, bankers, sons of military officers and diplomats, and includes personalities, such as former Petroleos de Venezuela (PDVSA) president and current Bush administration adviser, Luis Giusti, former Chavist Minister and Ambassador Ignacio Arcaya, former Caldera administration Finance Minister Luis Matos Azocar and former Venezuelan representative to the Inter American Human Rights Committee, Carlos Ayala.

Machado is expected to meet US State Department and Organization of American States (OAS) officials to explain the current situation of the recall referendum against Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez Frias.
(snip)

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=16259

[Demeter]

21. Like Water Dripping on a Stone

truth will wear away at the BushCo conspiracy, and all the little chickens will come home to roost.

[The Magistrate]

22. Excellent News, Ms. Robbien!

Those who plot coup under color of law, particularly with foreign assistance, are, and ought to be, dealt harshly with throughout the world.

"Traitors hang."

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

25. Haven't seen you in a looooooong time. n/t

[The Magistrate]

32. Lately, Sir

My efforts here have been concentrated down in the fever-swamp of the September 11 forum; it is a target-rich environment for a fellow with a logical turn of mind....

"The greatest of follies is passionate belief in the palpably untrue. It is the chief occupation of mankind."

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

36. Well, god speed my good sir. n/t.

[durutti]

33. Well said. n/t

[The Magistrate]

35. A Pleasure To You About The Place, Sir

It is a bit off the point, but it has long occured to me to ask you if you have ever read the Black Rose book on your namesake?

[David__77]

29. This is a strong stand for sovereignty.

There was a scandal here from just the very suggestion of foreign involvement in political fundraising. But these US groups are the actual intellectual authors of counterrevolution in Venezuela. They should definitely be charged with subversion.

[MasonJar]

30. Under Reagan and Bush Sr. there were hideous atrocities level-

ed against Latin American countries and governments. Stump is just following in dad's footsteps. He was undoubtedly behind the ouster of Haiti's elected government; supporting the rebels who were murdering whole villages. He is also a big bud with Ubekestan's (sp?) pres, who boiled an opposition leader alive in oil. GWB is a freak and a very dangerous man. Dry drunks who have fried their brains with drugs and who have been bailed out of every failure are arrogant and sociopathic.

[durutti]

31. I hope she gets life in the slammer.

As another poster said, you have to take a hard line with these people. Salvador Allende learned that lesson too late.

Vive Chavez!

[leesa]

34. Good. Let Maria go down.

They have the evidence. Bring it on...as the Chief Cheerleader would say.

[Name removed]

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[HuckleB]

44. Now that's spin!

You left out, oh, a few dozen facts and included some not so viable claims in order to come to a conclusion that fits well with the Bushies propaganda.

Berry, berry interesting.

(Note posts 6 and 13 for a start on what you conveniently left out.)

[Name removed]

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[HuckleB]

46. Keep spinning.

:eyes:

Deal with all of the information rather than just that which suits the propaganda vision you wish to convey. Do that, and I might waste my time discussing this matter. Unfortunately, your propaganda is far too naked.

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[HuckleB]

48. LOL!

Got mirro! It's time to get one. Denial comes to the hand of the accuser, as is the norm in this nation of propaganda. I asked you to do something (to be honest). I guess you choose not to do it. I'm far too old to play childish propaganda games.

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[Solon]

50. She is being prosecuted for accepting foriegn money to fund...

the opposition. In this case, that is treason, here in this country, the good old US of A and the situation was reversed, she would be prosecuted for campaign fraud at least, and if it was an enemy of the state, treason as well.

[Name removed]

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[Solon]

55. Who was behind the recall petition in the first place....

Oh, that's right, the opposition. Also, who won the recall vote, with international monitors again? Oh, that's right, Chavez. They did have some problems with non-Citizens signing onto the petition as well. Also, as far as Clinton-Gore with Chinese money, WTF? I thought they were cleared of that, otherwise, yes they would be thrown in jail. Its against our campaign laws to accept money for political campaigns from foreign agencies. Also the NED funding democracy worldwide is laughable to say the least. They are a CIA front organization, and the CIA itself is known as opposing democracy. Who funded the Contras again? Oh yes, the NED, the "National Endowment for Dictatorship". Think Panama, who did the NED fund again, I think he's in federal prison today, look it up. Here's a link for you:

http://members.aol.com/superogue/ned.htm

[Solon]

56. More, on the President of the NED...

Carl Gershman

Highlights & Quotes

Gershman was a member of the Socialist Party USA when it split into two factions in the early 1970s: a left wing led by Michael Harrington and a right wing led by Gershman, Tom Kahn, and Rachelle Horowitz. The right faction morphed into Social Democrats USA (SD-USA), which in the early 1970s rallied around Sen. Henry “Scoop” Jackson, the hawkish Democrat from Washington state whose staff was made of several key neoconservative figures, including Richard Perle, Frank Gaffney, Paul Wolfowitz, and Elliot Abrams. Like many of his fellow neoconservatives, Gershman was tapped to serve in the Reagan administration. In 1984, Gershman took over the helm of the National Endowment for Democracy, a quasi-governmental agency that has been criticized for interfering in elections abroad, financial mismanagement, and corruption.

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/ind/gershman/gershman.php

[HuckleB]

81. Weird.

No response to this one. It seems there's never a response to reality. Very bizarre.

[Solon]

84. I notice that when I argue with facts...

the opposition is silent, as if stunned or something. :shrug:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

122. They're rummaging for a believable excuse. Any one. No matter how lame.

It's fun to watch, actually. As you may clearly see down below.

[Name removed]

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[Solon]

61. Yes it is the right of the opposition to have the recall...

But, to NOT do it with foriegn money, that is the difference. If for example, Arnold's election (recall election) was funded by a Chinese NGO, then the people who participated in that recall election could be facing treason charges. Also, bear in mind, that this president already was overthrown, in blatant violation of both the principles of democracy, and in violation of their own constitution, with United States Aid. Our own ambassador to Venezuala was there with the coup plotters for crying out loud. Not to mention Bush's statements when it happened, and before popular support for Chavez overthrew the coup. In that case, the NED could be considered an funded by an enemy of their state, WE are the enemy of their state, what have we done that would make Chavez like us in the first place?

Also, for your other question, I doubt the ones funding the recall election thought they would win without severe election fraud. They are racists, mostly white, and basically wanted to institute an Aparthied like regime in Venezuala. And I say again, they basically tried to get him through a coup d'etat, who ever said they would maintain a democratic structure at all, when they already know they could never win a popular election?

[Name removed]

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[Solon]

67. Racist, of course not...

Cartoon by Pedro Zapata featured in the Jan 14, 2004 issue of the anti-Chavez newspaper El Nacional: "Racists! The afroamerican dollar is not black!".
Venezuela's opposition analysts have accused a delegation of African-American activists of receiving money from President Chavez to "make noises" in favor of his government.

[Name removed]

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[resident bunnypants]

72. No, you don't. He's a funny guy. I like that. n/t

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[resident bunnypants]

76. It takes one to know one. n/t

[Judi Lynn]

96. That's right in keeping with their public behavior.

You may recall one of their tv news programs actually ran clips of visiting African officials over and over again, using unacceptable racial insults. Filthy idea.

Apparently it's expected that the people of Venezuela accept any loathesome actions by the opposition simply because they ARE the opposition, after all, the ruling. European descended class in a country of many, MANY people of native and African descent. They've revealed to the entire world just what kind of people they really are.

[Judi Lynn]

69. You're right. There's not a shred of doubt about the boundless racism

of the "opposition" in Venezuela. How anyone could deny it is comical. It's impossible to avoid it, after all:

Opposition spokesmen complain that Chavez is a leftist who is leading the country to economic chaos, but underlying the fierce hatred is the terror of the country's white elite when faced with the mobilised mass of the population, who are black, Indian and mestizo. Only a racism that dates back five centuries - of the European settlers towards their African slaves and the country's indigenous inhabitants - can adequately explain the degree of hatred aroused. Chavez - who is more black and Indian than white, and makes no secret of his aim to be the president of the poor - is the focus of this racist rage.
(snip)

http://www.canadiandimension.mb.ca/extra/d1220rg.htm

[Name removed]

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[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

83. I did, and I don't do "Ignore". Answer me. Post #80.

[Name removed]

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[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

87. Yeah, I was two minutes late. (nt)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

77. Can you say THAT with a straight face???????

"wrong!! she did not fund the opposition
the money was being used to facilitate the recall. There was no opposition in the recall. It was either yes or no."

Excuse me while I pick my jaw from the floor. That's like saying the "swift boat veterans for truth" was a nonpartisan group. Jesus H. Q. Rhyste on a jet-powered pogo stick!

[Name removed]

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[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

80. Accusation is very clear -- accepting foreign money for political action.

You claim the recall wasn't an opposition action. It was. They had to convince enough people that Chavez was bad to sign the recall petition, or else the recall wouldn't happen. It was a political campaign, no different from an US presidential election.

US laws prohibits me, as a foreigner, from contributing to an US political campaign. Venezuela has, obviously, similar laws. That's what that person's being prosecuted for.

The court there will determine whether she broke this law or not.

[Name removed]

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[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

86. Purpose of a recall is OUSTING THE PRESIDENT AND CALLING ANOTHER ELECTION

How can that NOT be campaigning against the President?

Oh, and "destroy the republican form of government of Venezuela" isn't the text of the law, it's government rhetoric (bombastic, I admit).

[Name removed]

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[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

89. Same as any political campaign

Seek donations from citizens, not from foreigners.

And WHO do you think you're fooling with this unbelievable "they did not advocate the yes or no position" equine waste?

Even if they DIDN'T, it's still a political campaign. That means: no foreign money.

[nicho]

91. according to what law????

answer that. and the money was not spent to "campaign". they did not advocate any position to vote. So are you telling me that voter registration drives are "campaigns"?

[Solon]

92. No, it wasn't voter registration...

It was a petition drive that was to put on the ballot, in the off season, whether Chavez is to be recalled or not. A yes or no as to whether he can stay in office. Despite their acts of violence, the irregularities in the petition drive(hint: a lot of the signatures were identical, even though the names weren't). Despite everything they tried to do, legally and illegally, Chavez has a true mandate of the people in his country. He won the original election and defeated the recall through the ballot box, rather than through the gun. The opposition would destroy the democracy entirely to "save" it, rather than work through the system that is in place.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

95. Thanks for clearing that up. I wasn't aware of all the facts. (nt)

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[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

109. I was wondering why you didn't provide a link to the Venezuelan penal code

in your post... now I know the reason. See post #107.

By the way, the link is: http://comunidad.vlex.com/pantin/codigopenal.html

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

93. Signing the recall petition IS a form of voting.

Sign -> You want a recall.
Don't sign -> You don't want a recall.

Therefore, urging people to sign the recall petition -> political campaign.

I'm not sure about pure voter registration drives. If she can construe the org's acts as only a voter registration drive, she MAY get out on a technicality.

But IF any time, anywhere, their people were urging people to SIGN THE RECALL PETITION (a different thing), she's hosed.

But I don't decide this. Neither do you. Venezuelan courts will.

[Solon]

97. You want to know something...

I don't think she will be convicted. As far as I know, the prosecutor of the coup plotters was assassinated, and most of the conspirators were dismissed by judges who supported the coup. Caracas is a hostile place for Chavez supporters, 60 have died at the hands of the police and mayor. So who knows what will happen.

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[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

103. STRAW MAN ALERT

VOTING IS NOT CRIMINAL!!!!

CAMPAIGNING IS NOT CRIMINAL!!!!!!

ACCEPTING FOREIGN MONEY FOR CAMPAIGNING IS!!!!! Even USA law is like that! How hard is it to understand THAT?

[Name removed]

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[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

105. May be somewhere else, are you suggesting Venezuelan law is more liberal

than USA one in this regard? That would be QUITE unusual. And if it isn't, why is the NED involvement so prominently displayed?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

107. Hey. Hey. Wait a second. Wait a second. You CONVENIENTLY ommitted

The second paragraph of Article 132. Here it is in its entirety:

Artículo 132.- Cualquiera que, dentro o fuera del territorio nacional, conspire para destruir la forma política republicana que se ha dado la Nación será castigado con presidio de ocho a dieciséis años.

En la misma pena incurrirá el venezolano que solicitare la intervención extranjera en los asuntos de la política interior de Venezuela, o pidiere su concurso para trastornar la paz de la República o que ante sus funcionarios, o por publicaciones hechas en la prensa extranjera, incitare a la guerra civil en la República o difamare a su Presidente o ultrajare al Representante diplomático o a los funcionarios consulares de Venezuela, por razón de sus funciones, en el país donde se cometiere el hecho.

Translation of the start of the second paragraph:

It will be subject to the same penalty the Venezuelan who solicits foreign intervention in Venezuela's internal political matters.

Busted. Thanks for playing.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

108. Good catch.

Now where have I seen this convenient editing techniques before?

[Name removed]

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[Guy Whitey Corngood]

111. That's not the point and you know it. Why did you edit it out?n/t

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

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[Guy Whitey Corngood]

115. Bullshit. It's all part of the same law. Nice try though. n/t

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[Guy Whitey Corngood]

121. First of all why did you edit what the law said to make your bullshit case

Second, every government in the world accepts foreign aid. But it is illegal for private citizens to accept foreign money to alter an election. Particularly from an organisation such as this.
http://www.antiwar.com/paul/paul79.html

It is illegal here and I'm sure it is there. Don't even bother bringing up Clinton-Gore. That really shows where you're coming from. You have no credibility, If you want to continue wasting your time, go ahead. You have no credibility.

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[Guy Whitey Corngood]

125. If you're not going to answer my questions don't aske me any.

Why did you edit the paragraph so that you could grab onto part of what the law states?

She wanted to alter the political process with foreign money. PERIOD. If you want to pretend not to understand, to bad. Stop pretending the NED is some harmless NGO. It was started in '83 by Reagan to funnel money and subvert democracy. Do you like Reagan?....... Is this the best you can do?

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[Guy Whitey Corngood]

131. Using foreign

money to finance the recall with fake signatures and all kindsof other fraud does alter the process. Stop acting dumb I know you're not. I'll ask you again why the funky editing and, do you like R Reagan?

[nicho]

134. the money didn't finance the recall

the government was Constitutionally required to have a recall. the gov paid just like the government paid for our elections. petition drives and voter registration drives can be conducted by any private group as far as I know. she wasn't campaigning for the "yes" option.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

138. The campaign to get the sigantures was.

That's enough for me. Propaganda in all the Chavez hating networks isn't cheap, you know?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

139. Bwaaahaaaahaaaaa I'm done with you. I gotta go get me a drink.

You crack me up I tell ya.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

112. You're clutching at a truly microscopic straw there.

Comparing humanitarian aid with political campaigning is SO ridiculous it isn't even funny.

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[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

116. These are TREATIES.

You know what a treaty is, don't you?

The straw is now a cellulose molecule.

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

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[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

119. Whatever the name, it's an agreement between two governments.

Private citizens can't enter agreements on behalf of countries.

Flotation properties of single molecules are exceedingly small.

[Name removed]

123. Deleted message

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[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

126. "Assist in organizing?" Hah.

The real term is (as many people here said a GAZILLION times) is "political campaigning."

And you want to know WHY she voluntarily came back to Venezuela? Because it is NOT a "repressive near dictatorship" and she KNOWS she won't be mistreated and will have an opportunity to defend herself in a court of law. That's why.

Chavez is "out to get her" like any politician is "out to get" his/her opponents. If a Republican appears to overstep the bounds of law, don't we jump at it with glee? And don't they do the same thing in the reverse situation? That's politics.

I can't keep this forever, you know. I have a life. I'll get back tomorrow and see if you made any new arguments (and I use the term loosely). G'nite.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

129. You know what? I'm done.

The air here is so full of shit. My computer is starting to smell. You know what I'm saying?

[Name removed]

130. Deleted message

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[Judi Lynn]

137. It's not up to DU posters to find articles supporting Chavez

If you have some respectable information condemning him with authentic claims he has committed illegal acts as President, it's your responsibility to provide it.

Anything less is wasting everyone's time.

[Judi Lynn]

120. It would appear any foreign "aid" handed out to Venezuela

is more than compensated by the trade in "foreign military sales" and "direct commercial sales."

The appearance of a relationship with Venezuela would have to be maintained by this administration, as it has been in existence a very long time. The appearance would continue until _Bush intensifies his aggression against that country.

[Solon]

127. Actually yes it does...

First thing to make clear, the NED is a government agency, unofficial as it is. That doesn't matter, it is funded by our tax payers dollars and has many officials in it that are members of our government. Military and food aid packages usually do not have strings attached, and the strings that could be attached are rare and illegal in most countries. Example: We promise aid to Indonesia, as long as they change the government to allow XYZ party to rule. That is illegal and unethical.

The US government cannot and should not allow their own agencies to fund voting drives, even a get out the vote drive funded in Venezuala is illegal in that country, as it would be here. Let's reverse the situation, lets say there was a recall provision in our Constitution, and a group of people, a PAC was formed to put out a petition to put a recall provision on the ballot that year. The recalled failed, and it was found out that some of the funds that went into this PAC was from a KGB front group, lets call it the SED(Socialist Endowment for Democracy) also, and this happened during the Cold War. Now would the leader or leaders of this PAC be prosecuted for treason or not? If the physical evidence was there, along with the witnesses required here, I would say yes, what about you?

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

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[Solon]

133. You have apparently not been listening...

Using Foriegn DOLLARS is the issue, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all if her organization didn't receive money from us, is their a constitutional right to foriegn money I'm unaware of?

[Name removed]

140. Deleted message

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[Solon]

141. She violated the law you cite only because she accepted...

Foriegn money for an election, plain and simple, even with the constitutional power given to the people about recall provisions. The Government certainly has the power to restrict the funding for such drives to domestic funding only, and she violated that law. Or is this going to go over your head as well. Also, you seem to be unable to separate financial aid to a nation, to interefering with its politics through foriegn dollars to NON GOVERNMENTAL ENTITIES in that country. If two countries agree to aid, or a deal with each other for financial or military benefits, that is within the law in Venezuala, why? Because it is the legitamet government that has that power, NOT private organizations. How the hell you equate the two, I have no idea. By the same token, a government has the power to tell a foriegn NGO to piss off and not enter their country, its called soveriegnty, but I guess Venezuela is only another colony to you, isn't it?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

135. .

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

136. .

[TahitiNut]

79. "Clinton and Gore received money from China during their 96 campaign."

Oh? Those darn un-Christian Buddhists, again, huh? :eyes:


Somebody's been messing around with the roadsigns on the Information Superhighway, again.

:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[Judi Lynn]

106. It'd be good to see an article bearing out your claim Chavez threatened

to fire any government employee who signed the petition. It would be fitting if you provided it.

We have read multiple incidents of department heads in factories pushing the employees to sign, however. Very, very great pressure there.

Solon is right. Signing the petition to hold a recall was most definitely a vote for the opposition position to remove him. Nothing other.

I'm including at no charge, an article I just discovered:

In April 2002, just days after the failed coup d'etat against Venezuela President Hugo Chavez, the State Department gave the NED a US$1 million grant entitled Special Venezuela Funds .. which was distributed to many of the very same groups that had just led and participated in the coup.

In fact, since President Chavez's election to highest office in 1998, the NED has consistently funded just one sector in Venezuela: the opposition to President Chavez.

Once George W. Bush assumed the US presidency in 2000, funding to opposition groups in Venezuela was quadrupled. Those organizations receiving NED funding, such as the Confederacion de Trabajadores Venezolanos (CTV), the Asamblea de Educacion, Primero Justicia, Fedecamaras, CEDICE, Sumate and others have used the millions in US taxpayer dollars to lead a coup against President Chavez, devastate Venezuela's economy through an illegal 64-day long strike and, later, lead a failed recall referendum attempt.

All of the NED-funded initiatives have shared just one goal: remove President Chavez from power ... be it through legal or illegal means.
(snip)

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=45&ItemID=6745

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Venezuela Closes Border With Colombia to Prevent Petition Drive Fraud

Sunday, Nov 30, 2003

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Pro-Chavez observers have reported that people with Colombian accents have been signing petitions in bordering states.

Late last Friday, an ID card cloning operation was detected at the Miguel Antonio Caro elementary school in western Caracas. Military and police personnel were called to the scene, the equipment used was confiscated, and a formal complaint was made to the CNE.
(snip)

Patients forced to sign

Patients at the Domingo Luciani Hospital, reported being asked to sign the petitions against President Chavez. Only centers approved by the National Electoral Council can collect signatures. Absentee petitions can be used by authorized personnel but only when in company of at least one observer.

"A woman came here claiming to be from the CNE, and asked me to sign the petition against the President, I refused to sign but many others did. She told us that we must sign in order to receive medical attention," said a man on TV from his hospital bed. Numerous patients at the hospital filed complains with representatives of the Public Ombudsman office at the scene.

Several other complains have been made, including observers asked to approve petitions forms that were filled outside the collections centers without the presence of an observer. TV footage showed pro-Chavez observers holding illegally filled petitions recovered from opposition organizers who fled the scene when the cameras showed up.

Illegal computers still used

Illegal computer equipment continues being used by opposition organizers at signature collection centers. The computers have been provided by SUMATE, a private company that provides technical assistance to opposition activities. The CNE has banned the use of any electronic equipment that could be used at the tables to verify or register signers’ data. Pro-Chavez employees who have been forced by their employers to sign the petitions, are being asked to use incorrect ID card numbers or names in order to invalidate their signatures. Through the use of the computers, opposition organizers can detect fake names being used, and ask the signer to use a valid name.
(snip/...)

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1117

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

You won't find many takers at D.U. There are a lot of readers here.

[realFedUp]

53. NED grants

from their website:

Q: Does NED give grants to individuals?
A: No, NED only gives grants to organizations.

Q: Is NED part of the U.S. Government?
A: No. NED is a private, non-profit, grant-making organization that receives an annual appropriation from the U.S. Congress through the Department of State. Although NED’s continued funding is dependent on the continued support of the White House and Congress, it is NED’s independent Board of Directors that controls how the appropriation is spent.

[realFedUp]

54. this apparantly isn't new news...

http://www.ned.org/press/releases.html

November 11, 2004

“It has come to our attention that the leaders of Sumate, a civic organization, face criminal prosecution for accepting international assistance to help educate citizens about their rights under Venezuela’s constitution,” reads the letter. “As democrats, we are appalled that this group is being singled out for punishment, a group whose deep commitment to democratic principles we share and applaud.”

The letter also criticizes pending legislation that could criminalize receipt of international democracy assistance, in violation of Venezuelan commitments under the Inter-American Democratic Charter and the Warsaw Declaration of the Community of Democracies.

“We are equally troubled that this prosecution appears to be just the beginning of a larger effort to criminalize the receipt of foreign funds by Venezuelan NGOs. We agree with the denunciations of this proposed “reform” of the penal code by human rights groups in Venezuela and elsewhere as a clear violation of international standards and practices.”

NED President Carl Gershman, who returned Wednesday from a trip to Venezuela where he sought to improve government and public understanding of the Endowment and the objectives of NED’s grants to civil society groups said, “International democracy assistance in support of independent institutions of civil society is today an established feature of international relations.” During his trip, Gershman and NED representatives met with the President of Venezuela’s Supreme Court and the Attorney General Isaias Rodriguez, to whom they personally delivered the coalition’s letter. “We hope that by alerting the Venezuelan authorities to the seriousness of international concern on the issues of Sumate and international democracy assistance, they will refrain from taking actions that would be counterproductive for everyone involved,” said Gershman.

NED is a private, nonprofit, grant-making organization created in 1983 to strengthen democratic institutions around the world. It is active in more than 80 countries, supporting grassroots democratic initiatives.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

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[realFedUp]

60. yep....n/t

[Darranar]

99. It should be. The NED is in the business of election subversion. n/t

[TahitiNut]

142. R.I.P.

[Solon]

143. Aw damn...

I was beginning to have fun dammit. I love messing with freeper arguments. Damn you MODS, DAMN YOU!!!!!!!!

Just Kidding :)

[Judi Lynn]

146. Just won't be the same around here.

[TahitiNut]

147. (rofl!) Now, that's funny.

How about "Ding dong the witch is dead"??

[Judi Lynn]

148. You got THAT right. Good one.

That's one anti-Democratic poster who'll be peddling his fractured stories somewhere else.

I was thinking he'd make an unbelievable tailor, sewing shirts with sleeves coming out of the back, the collar sewed onto the front, with lots of button holes on it........ and maybe a zipper thrown in for free. ((((shudder))))

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

151. This thread has been quite productive!

*Thump* *Thump* *Thump* Another one bites the dust!

[TahitiNut]

153. Chavez threads are like Roach Motels - irresistable

The corporatist roaches just can't resist infesting any thread about the "red menace" of any popularly-elected "leftist" government in the plantation hemisphere.

[Darranar]

100. It's so private that it receives US government money. n/t

[Cocoa]

59. the Moonie Times is not credible on Latin America

they served as a mouthpiece for the contra cause in the 80's, and they're currently engaged in an anti-Chavez crusade.

[Judi Lynn]

63. Information on the N.E.D. a lot of Democrats know already.....

From: Trojan Horse:
The National Endowment for Democracy

How many Americans could identify the National Endowment for Democracy? An organization which often does exactly the opposite of what its name implies. The NED was set up in the early 1980s under President Reagan in the wake of all the negative revelations about the CIA in the second half of the 1970s. The latter was a remarkable period. Spurred by Watergate-the Church Committee of the Senate, the Pike Committee of the House and the Rockefeller Commission, created by the president, were all busy investigating the CIA. Seemingly every other day there was a new headline about the discovery of some awful thing, even criminal conduct, the CIA had been mixed up in for years. The Agency was getting an exceedingly bad name, and it was causing the powers-that-be much embarrassment.
(snip)

In a multitude of ways, NED meddles in the internal affairs of foreign countries by supplying funds, technical know-how, training, educational materials, computers, fax machines, copiers, automobiles and so on, to selected political groups, civic organizations, labor unions, dissident movements, student groups, book publishers, newspapers, other media, etc. NED programs generally impart the basic philosophy that working people and other citizens are best served under a system of free enterprise, class cooperation, collective bargaining, minimal government intervention in the economy and opposition to socialism in any shape or form. A freemarket economy is equated with democracy, reform and growth, and the merits of foreign investment are emphasized.

From 1994 to 1996, NED awarded 15 grants, totaling more than $2,500,000, to the American Institute for Free Labor Development, an organization used by the CIA for decades to subvert progressive labor unions. AlFLD's work within Third World unions typically involved a considerable educational effort very similar to the basic NED philosophy described above. The description of one of the 1996 NED grants to AIFLD includes as one its objectives: "build union-management cooperation". Like many things that NED says, this sounds innocuous, if not positive, but these in fact are ideological code words meaning "keep the labor agitation down...don't rock the status quo boat". The relationship between NED and AIFLD very well captures the CIA origins of NED.

The Endowment has funded centrist and rightist labor organizations to help them oppose those unions which were too militantly proworker. This has taken place in France, Portugal and Spain amongst many other places. In France, during the 1983-4 period, NED supported a "trade union-like organization for professors and students" to counter "left-wing organizations of professors". To this end it funded a series of seminars and the publication of posters, books and pamphlets such as "Subversion and the Theology of Revolution" and "Neutralism or Liberty". ("Neutralism" here refers to being unaligned in the Cold War.)
(snip/...)

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/TrojanHorse_RS.html



Photo of the tube, Carl Gershman, mentioned in an earlier post. He's on the left side of the photo.

[Supersedeas]

66. when free labor clashes with real democracy---who loses?

[Judi Lynn]

90. You have to wonder about the people who support exploitation

of the vulnerable. Ugly folks.

[Name removed]

144. Deleted message

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[MsMagnificent]

150. Dang. I miss ALL the good Freeper Fantasy Fights!

This sounded like a classic "debate" too! Quoting verbatim only just happening to forget aka Deliberately omitting a couple words here and there? And that kind of stuff constantly passes muster in their strange new world (order). Go figure. :crazy:
Classic Freeper Madness.

The guy wouldn't stop what sounded like some primo spinning and all I got to read were about 75 "Deleted message"s :(

Dang.


(Yeah, so maybe I DO need a hobby... but would it be as entertaining? :evilgrin: