(Harold Ickes) Ex-Clinton Aide Ickes Backs Dean for DNC

[truthpusher]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050128/ap_on_re_us/democrats_chair_3

Ex-Clinton Aide Ickes Backs Dean for DNC

13 minutes ago U.S. National - AP

By WILL LESTER, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - Harold Ickes, a leading Democratic activist and former aide to President Clinton (news - web sites), said Friday he is backing Howard Dean (news - web sites) to be chairman of the Democratic National Committee (news - web sites) — giving a powerful boost to the front-runner.

"I think all the candidates who are running have strong attributes, but Dean has more of the attributes than the others," said Ickes, who considered running for chairman himself before dropping out in early January. "Many people say Howard Dean is a northeastern liberal, he is progressive, but his tenure as governor of Vermont was that of a real moderate."

Ickes, who heads the political action committee of Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (news - web sites), D-N.Y., said the endorsement was his alone and "does not reflect Sen. Clinton's opinion."

While Ickes would not comment on the Clintons' preferences, he is a close ally and would not be endorsing Dean against their strong objections. No one was immediately available in Sen. Clinton's office to comment.

more:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050128/ap_on_re_us/democrats_chair_3

[Semi_subversive]

1. Maybe they're finally wising up?

[lancdem]

7. Or they never were as anti-Dean as Howie Fineman

and some DUers believed. I doubt they "wised up."

[tishaLA]

11. That must be the case

These stories about the Clintons have been just silly. I'm sure someone will find some nefarious reason for Ickes to support Dean for DNC Chair, but they'd find something nefarious behind almost anything.

[Depth03]

20. I certainly hope so..

It is time to bring back some reality.
I am always impressed with how direct and correct Dean is.

www.depthaudio.com/Dean.htm - Classic powerful Dean.

[Al-CIAda]

28. Nice -eom

[radio4progressives]

88. This is Grrrreeaaat! This is what is so DESPERATELY NEEDED!

Please send this audio clip to Mike Malloy - help restore his faith... thanks for this btw..

[Depth03]

95. .................

yes, I sent it to Mike. I am not sure if he has heard it yet. Feel free to remind him of it as well.

[radio4progressives]

96. excellent - Mike needs a moral booster - (like the rest of us) n/t

[RememberWellstone]

38. Maybe getting him out of the way?

I would support another run by Dean.

I am not real comfortable with Hillary heading the ticket. I think Dean could pick up where Kerry left off, 58 million voters to be exact.

[blm]

2. He wouldn't be doing this without Hillary. So, she wasn't as dead set

against Dean as the rumors claimed.

[Adelante]

3. Right, blm

The mediawhores done did their dirty work again.

[lancdem]

9. And so many DUers fell for it

We don't believe the MSM on stories about Bush, why should we when it come to the Clintons?

[Adelante]

14. Well, you know

They're congenitally guilty of whateverthefuck. :eyes:

[Rose Siding]

17. Probably, but the one truth doesn't necessarily lead to the other

Rumor or not, she may not have wanted to appear to oppose Dean for various reasons. The theory of her preferences have been advanced in some widely viewed venues.

I generally come down on her side in most cases- anyone who's endured what she has from the right should have some free passes stored up, but there's no denying- 08 is now an open race.

[blm]

22. Sure, she likely preferred someone else, but the "war against Dean" that

was proffered by guys like Fineman was a bit too breathlessly reported to be believed.

[GoreDean2008]

45. The Clintons Have No Choice...

... but to endorse Dean and fight within the Democratic Party organization. It's a clear sign that the Clinton wing of the Democratic Party gave up on undermining Dean because they are unwinnable in this fight. Their ultimate goal is not to win the DNC Chairmanship. They want to return to the White House. But I don't really think Hillary has any chance. We will see. Anyway, it's a very good endorsement for Dean.

[radio4progressives]

85. I agree with you on what Clinton's objective is...

Yes the Clinton's want the white house, and they did see that smearing Dean was a losing operation both politically and realistically, but i disagree that Icke is a good endorsement.

in fact it concerns me...

[Eloriel]

51. Or MAYBE she decided to

get in front of this parade... or at least in a position ("neutral") where she doesn't look like she opposed it, and thus alienate all those who support Dean.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

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[radio4progressives]

86. absolutely --- their campaign was not winning them political points...

it was losing operation ... and i agree, they want in front of the parade, at least they're smarter than Kerry in this regard.

[Zhade]

74. Or, #38 has it pegged. No real way to know, though.

NT!

[radio4progressives]

84. This is bad news...

I think the Clinton camp read the writing on the wall and realized the smear campaign against Dean was backfiring.

Not only did the DFA endorse Dean, but so did the PDA, very early on, and they just held their Summit 2005 last weekend in Washington DC. which brought together a wide divergence of progressive political activist, I was pleased to read.

My fear is that this signing on of Ickes might be an operation to "reign" Dean in from being truly effective.

Call me paranoid, but that's how politics works doesn't it? I do not for a second believe that the Clinton's or the Kerry camp have any intentions of allowing real changes to take place that might impact party politics and it's structure. They certainly do not want grassroots political activism to be able to wrest control from their firm grip in terms of policy proposals, messaging, and party platform.

I think the strategy is to do an end run with a public endorsement in order to keep Dean under their control, also might be able to get Dean to relinquish his email lists.

So this endorsement is sending off alarms for me. I'm thinking Dean needs to say "thank you" - but "no thank you" in order to remain independent of both the Clinton and Kerry camps and in order to avoid being co-opted.

I just hope I'm wrong.

[funkybutt]

4. damn! you beat me by one minute

[funkybutt]

5. self delete

[KittyWampus]

6. Dean Governed Much Like Clinton... He Sided With The GOP AND

corporate interests at times and infuriated the Liberals in Vermont by doing so.

Dean is so much more than what a lot of his supposed supporters make him out to be.

[lancdem]

8. Yes

His presidential campaign was much more liberal than his record as governor. I'm not criticizing. I think Dean was a great governor.

[cali]

16. Would you mind not speaking for the liberals in Vermont?

I'm a liberal from Vermont. In fact I"m very liberal and I've been involved in Vermont politics for 25 years. I' supported Dean as Governor and I supported him when he ran for President, though in all honesty, I ended up voting for JK because I thought he stood a better chance against bush, and I'd always liked him anyways. But back to Dean, liberals and Vermont. I know a heck of a lot of Vermont liberals. Most of us supported him and liked him. Yes, there were some that didn't, but they were in the minority.

[KittyWampus]

25. Listen, I Read Up On The Liberal Papers From Vermont. AND Read

the comments from Vermont's Progressive Activists and Democratic State Legislature.

Yes, YOU may have been hunky dory with Dean's centrism and some of your friends might have been... but somehow there was PLENTY of unhappiness about Dean in the non-mainstream press/blogs coming out of Vermont.

Heck, I bet the same could be said about Clinton's days in Arkansas.

You can certainly say the same about Clinton's tenure as POTUS.

P.S. That's what I mean about Dean's supporters not appreciating him fully. He was willing to go against the Party grain and ruffle Progressive feathers to make things happen. That isn't always a bad thing.

[ozone_man]

40. Dean is more concerned with leading than crowd pleasing.

Being from the progressive wing of the Democratic Party, or simply just a Progressive, since we have a Progressive party here, I was not always in agreement with Dean.

He had to make some tough decisions that did not please everyone, but that is what an executive must do. I am not a whiner. Dean did an excellent job as governor, and he was a moderate, but that reflects the average Vermonter very well.

But moderate Vermonters can still be considered liberal. E.g., Dean passed the first civil union law, spending much of his political capital on doing what was right. It was pretty rough sledding during that campaign.

[Eloriel]

53. Actually, it's Dean's SUPPORTERS who are so much more than some

DUers give them credit for being. And it's pretty patronizing to assume you know more than we do, OR that you know better than we do.

Overwhelmingly, we are all aware of the "negative" press that came out of those blogs and "liberal" newspapers in VT. A few of them were frankly sicko hit pieces, almost completely out of touch with reality. As I pointed out before, Dean was GOVERNOR, not dictator. He had several simultaneous responsibilities and requirements: balance the needs of the environment with the needs of Vermont's economy (jobs!!!!); balance the budget and fiscal responsibility with the overarching social needs of Vermonters. Etc.

IMO and the opinion of most Dean supporters, he did an admirable if not heroic job. IMO and the opinion of some Dean supporters, he's as liberal -- judged on what he accomplished!!! -- as we've seen any governor be or dream any governor COULD be in this era. Healthcare for all children (and a good many adults) while ALSO having a balanced budget? Putting aside millions of acres of Vermont that will never be developed? Signing Civil Unions and dfending it to the hilt? Implementing a program that cost just $100 per child and yet cut child abuse by 43% and child sexual abuse by 70%?

My God, that one achievement alone is simply incredible and should be duplicated in every single state. It's an incredibly "liberal" (or progressive if you prefer) accomplishment that IMO -- and esp. with his other accomplishments -- completely neuters any and all charges of not liberal enough. (IMO not nearly enough was made of that one single, absolutely mind-blowing accomplishment. The social costs prevented, the human misery, the prison populations reduced 20-yeaers hence ---- just mind-blowing what this ONE program accomplishes for Vermont and her people.)

[KittyWampus]

57. Well SOME Dean Supposters Are Addicted To Victimhood, Outrage

and melodrama.

It's hard to respect DU'ers who insist on buying the Mediawhores' divisive crap.

There may be varying views of issues within the Democratic Party and room for changing methods... but the assinine soap opera being peddled around here concerning Dean is outworn.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lancdem]

68. Nice response

:eyes:

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

70. Just demonstrating the type of BALLS that could have helped us win in 2004

JB

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Capn Sunshine]

83. I guess this means we'll finally get some work done,, huh?

find out which DFA is closest tyo your area? If one is serious about getting corporate dollars , entrenched DC lobbyists , and neocon collaborators out of the system, this or anothher progressive group is where to start.

If even Ickes sees the light , maybe the natagonists and protagonists alike inthe DU soap opear mentioned will buckle down to some real work instaed of criticizing those trying to make a change.

[98geoduck]

34. You mean like Kerry, Edwards, Gephardt, Clark et al

Yeah , I guess his standing up against the war and Bush was just a smokecreen.

[Rowdyboy]

10. Excellent news! Now can we quit taking Fineman's bait?

He talks nothing but thrash, has been consistently disproven, but people here still quote him like he's some kind of god.

[roguevalley]

12. Fineman is an idiot. Ickes wants a strong leader obviously and

he's backing Dean for it. I don't give a damn one way or the other what Hillary wants. She will do or not whatever she wants. Its time for dems to do what their smarts and consciences say to do. Not what some putative head of the party dictates.

[lancdem]

13. Fineman is an idiot

Now can we stop acting like he's credible?

[Debi]

15. I think we need to step back and look at the big picture....

Maybe I'm seeing conspiracy here but the Clinton's helped Kerry after they assessed that he would not win.

So they throw Dean Ickes and use all their other firepower to defeat him. They look neutral but controlled the whole damn thing.

I wouldn't trust that they're out of it.

If I were Dean I'd be wary of this endorsement.

[bahrbearian]

19. Stings attached ?

[Debi]

21. Hmmmmm

n/t

[Adelante]

46. Goodness gracious

It's politics; of course, there are strings attached.

[candy331]

33. Debi, I was leery of it the moment I saw it too. It may be genuine

but I wouldn't count this one yet.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

56. Dean as DNC chair means he is NO threat to Hillary Repuke-lite 2008 run.

This is a strategic move on Hillary's part to keep Dean from being a serious in-house competitor for the Democratic nomination for Pres. in 2008.

...a political move worthy of Rove, I would add.

JB

[lancdem]

63. The Clintons knew Kerry wouldn't win?

Wow, I didn't know they had ESP! :eyes: Your right. It is a conspiracy theory, and one with zero FACTS to back it up. Ickes' endorsement is a big help to Dean. Period.

[radio4progressives]

87. I think You're on Target Debi (see my earlier post) n/t

[Karmadillo]

18. If the Dems nominate a "real moderate", won't Dean's supporters be angry?

I thought they wanted a genuine liberal who'd take the party left.

:-)

[CAcyclist]

35. I'm a deaniac too

and I'm a real liberal, but I never had any illusions that Dean was a liberal and I don't expect him to be. I expect to disagree with a lot of what he does.

What I do expect him to do is have the courage of his convictions.

[eridani]

37. Kucitizen in agreement with you

Those of us who decided to stay with the Democrats after the primaries were a foregone conclusion know perfectly well that Dean isn't any sort of progressive on the issues. However, his aggressive attempts to get more people permanently involved in electoral politics are just what we need right now.

"You have the power" is a blank slate of a slogan, meaning essentially that we should all just participate more and argue specifics later. I have every confidence that progressives can eventually fill the slate with all the right issue positions--you know, the ones Kucinich advocated then and now. :)

[dansolo]

48. Dean is a progressive

I'm suprised to hear a statement like this from a supporter of a candidate who supported a flag burning amendment, which is one of the least progressive positions I can think of.

[Depth03]

72. "You have the power"...post #20

see post #20 for "You have the power" audio link.

[iamthebandfanman]

50. indeed

i am the same way, and i think alot of his supporters know about his record in vermont.
the media can label him whatever they want, and they did so in an attempt to destroy him as they always (by proclaiming someone is the filthy word 'liberal').
all of us deaniacs know hes a moderate, thats why he appeals to us i think. hes open to our progressive ideas, while at the same time being a leader from the middle and appealing to everyones ideas and thoughts.
all that crap about him not being able to win the presidency, all bull poopy. so when we talk about in this thread, who got duped by mainstream media about the clintons not liking him, just remember u ALL got duped by them about his electability.
i dont mean to rag on poor john kerry, and lord knows i voted for him, but i knew from the beginning he wouldnt be a good choice. hes been a sen for so long n has to much of a record to over analyse, whether it be good or bad. i think we all know itd get thrown in his face at some point, and sure enuff it did. frankly i think a blind one armed monkey coulda beat shrub in this election, and it says alot about our party and the person we nominated when we didnt win it(no offense to any blind one armed monkeys out there).

look, whether you love him or hate him Howard Dean is a man who can get things done and do so while trying to do what he thinks is right and what the people that support him think is right.

its about time we got someone who spoke their mind and wasnt afraid to go on the offense about things instead of being defensive and cowardly.

so i say god bless Dr Dean , hes a good guy and could make an even better leader for our party.

if hes given the job, our future is VERY bright, and you can mark my words on that and rub it in my face if it doesnt come to pass.

:)

[Eloriel]

78. Nice post, and welcome to DU

I think you're absolutely right on every point. :D

[Eloriel]

79. Nice post, and welcome to DU

I think you're absolutely right on every point. :D

[Maat]

23. I'm happy for the endorsement.

I'm a Deaniac. Supported in the primaries (even though I eventually voted for Kucinich after Dean dropped out, and I knew he would be speaking at the Convention).

I'm a proud member of Democracy for America. I've always said Dean's my party chairman, one way or the other.

And, it is the same with Dean as it is with me. Sometimes I'm called a moderate, sometimes people say I'm far left.

It's not the label that it important. I saved the listing of Dean's positions from the primaries. I agree with virtually all of his positions, with the exception of same-sex marriage, which I am for (but, if I can get my LGBT friends equivalent domestic partnership benefits first, I will).

Many people across our party's spectrum have endorsed Dean. So, I'm happy for this endorsement; I'm certainly not worried about it. His straight-shooting, enthusiastic and passionate nature will be good for the party, as well as his commitment to the grassroots activists.

So, hopefully, he will win.

When will we know?

[dave29]

26. Feb 12th

That's when the vote happens, but if things keep rolling like this before then, we'll know before the vote happens. :)

[Maat]

27. Thanks.

n/t

[Cha]

29. Good Luck with anyone trying to label

Dean. But, he says what he means and means what he says and always trying to evolve to make things better..I think that's why people like him ..from all over the spectrum.

[Maat]

31. Exactly.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Andromeda]

24. This is huge!

Maybe the Clinton's haven't publicly come out and endorsd anyone specifically, at least not that I know, but to have Ickes do it is really important.

[dogman]

30. But, but, but,

this isn't the story that has been hammered here all week. Who do we hate for this?

[Adelante]

47. LOL

Good one, Dog. :7

[brentspeak]

32. Karl Rove was probably afraid of Dean

Why else would Rove have stood in line at a pro-Dean rally? He wanted to make it appear as if he was hoping Dean would be the nominee. But if he really wanted Dean as the nominee, he wouldn't have pulled that little trick.

[RememberWellstone]

52. Karl Rove=dick

Karl Rove is interested in Karl Rove,he's just wanting to prostitute his services, or maybe he wanted to give Dean a bj. Either way, he's an asshole.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

61. EXACTLY...and a huge number of Dems fell for his reverse psychology trick

DEAN COULD HAVE KICKED BUSH'S ASS.

Rove's strategy during the election, as we now know, was a grassroots "get out the vote" amongst churchgoers and the like. Dean's grassroots movement was a SERIOUS counter threat to this strategy, and Rove knew full well that Iraq was based upon a lie that DEAN DID NOT FALL FOR.

JB

[lancdem]

64. Believe what you want

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

66. There's a difference between belief and FACT.

FACT = we had our asses handed to us with Kerry's failed bid.

JB

[lancdem]

69. I just seriously doubt someone who couldn't even win

the primaries would've stood a better chance against Rove. For the record, I think Dean will make a great DNC chair.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

71. Was doing fine until the media lynching & Kerry/Gephardt whisper campaign

Dean was derailed by corporate fascist Dem sabotage movement and media manipulation, not his message or movement.

JB

[radio4progressives]

90. Exactly.

[GoreDean2008]

73. You are right!

[Eloriel]

80. That was debunked by someone who ws there WITH Rove at the time

and your retelling reminds me of either old fish stories (the fish gets bigger with each retelling) or the old parlor game, Telephone, where what comes out at the other end of a chain of whispered retellings to a line of people bears no resemblance to the original story.

Rove was merely horsing around, and what little he said was blown all out of proportion. Later on they did INDEED fear Dean. But at that point, they were really pretty neutral on him.
So to sum up:

* Rove didn't stand in line
* and it wasn't a Dean rally (it was a parade)
* it was impromptu clowning around, not an intended message at all
* so there was no "little trick" that he pulled

IOW: not a single word of your story, other than "Rove" and "Dean" is in the least bit accurate.

[brentspeak]

81. Thanks for the post, Mildred

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6406880/site/newsweek/

The only thing you clarified was that the event was a parade, and not a specific Dean rally. Other than, it's a pretty scrawny post.

According to this article, and other like it, Rove was pretty far from "neutral" on Bush running against Dean.

"It was an open secret that Karl Rove was itching to take on Dean."

"Rove was so convinced that Dean would be the president's foe in the general election that he began making small wagers around the White House, betting hamburgers that Dean would prevail."

You were saying?

You also claim that the story was "debunked" by "someone" who was WITH Rove at the time. From the article:

"Misquoted, Rove insisted to NEWSWEEK (the witness, he claimed, was a "lefty," a Sierra Club member)."

So the person who denied what Rove said was...Rove himself. (A credible source, I'm sure...) And the "someone" (an environmental lawyer named P.Weiss, I thought you were such an expert on this matter) that you hold up as your debunker was, in fact, the one who vouched that Rove was cheering for Dean.

Was Rove joking? Maybe, maybe not. I don't think anyone would know. Certainly you of all people would have no way in hell of knowing.

IOW - you are some weirdo who probably crossed swords with me in the past.

[VegasWolf]

36. Good, Dean has balls. n/t

[Jax]

39. Good for him

Dean is the voice we need and have needed.

Jax

[David Zephyr]

41. Breaking: Clinton Kisses Howard Dean's Butt. Here's the Phone Transcript

Telephone rings at the Vermont home of Howard Dean at 2 AM EST.

DEAN: Hello?

CLINTON: Uh, Howard, this is Bill...you know, Bill Clinton. Sorry to wake you up, but I need to talk with you.

DEAN: Oh, yeah. Hi Bill. What's up?

CLINTON: Uh, Howard, I just wanted to let you know that Howard Fineman had that whole story wrong...you know, about me working behind your back to sabotage your chances for the DNC Chair.

DEAN: Oh, don't give it a second thought, Bill. As a matter of fact I just got off the phone with Wes Clark and...

CLINTON: Oh, excuse me for butting in, but I was also going to tell you that the story about me trying to get Wes to challenge you for the Chair is also untrue. I know that some have suggested that I was trying to get Clark out of the 2008 race for Hillary and defeat you for Chair at the same time...sort of killing two birds with one stone, but I assure you, Howard, that it never happened.

DEAN: Oh, Bill. I hope that this isn't why you called me. Was it?

CLINTON: Not exactly. I also wanted to let you know that I've asked Harold Ickes to publicly endorse you now for DNC Chair. You know we all have to be united, right?

DEAN: Unity. That's what we need. I agree.

CLINTON: Well, one last thing, Howard. I've asked Harold to make certain that he denies that I've asked him to endorse you now that it is obvious that you are going to win the Chairmanship anyway. I don't want it to look like I'm trying to manipulate anything.

DEAN: I understand, Bill.

CLINTON: Oh, and Howard...one last thing?

DEAN: Yeah, what?

CLINTON: Don't hold this against Hillary, OK? You will be fair to her when she runs against Wes and any others in the 2008 Primaries, right.

DEAN: Good night, Bill.

[leQ]

43. *giggle* that was good (eom)

.

[lancdem]

59. Clinton doesn't kiss anyone's ass

[radio4progressives]

91. What are you talking about> Clinton has been licking Bush'es boots for

the past four years. good grief.

[radio4progressives]

89. That .... is a Keeper! n/t

[NashVegas]

42. Por Favor

For whatever reason, people are starting to replay the crap from the primaries cycle all over again.

2008 is 3 years away.

Can we give the candidate / candidate supporter baiting a rest, at least in LBN? Thanks.

[KeireG]

44. I've Always Felt...

...that this anti-dean stuff within the democratic party was overblown. He is clearly going to secure the leadership position in the DNC. It's a foregone conclusion.

[Politiclo8]

49. No it's the Hillary Clinton strategy.......

Remember that Dean said if he becomes DNC chairman he won't run for Prez in '08 leaving the field wide open for Queen Turncoat Hillary!!!!!!!!!!

[lancdem]

58. Give me a break

Dean's the one who wants to run for DNC chair. The DNC chair can't run for president. The decison to run for chair was his, not anyone else's. So Ickes supporting him is a bad thing?

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

54. Support for Dean to keep him from threatening Hillary 2008 run...

Dean is the single BIGGEST threat to the Repuke-lite Hillary Clinton run in 2008. Supporting him for DNC chair keeps him in check, so Hillary can move forward with her campaign.

Hopefully, Dean will continue to be a thorn in the side of pussy Dems, who want to eshew our core principles in an effort to curry favor with homophobes, racists, religious nutballs, corporate fascists, and general shitheads.

JB

[lancdem]

60. Dean is the one seeking the chairmanship

He wants the job. N one is keeping him "in check."

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

62. BULLSHIT. Hillary doesn't do anything that doesn't support her ambitions.

Supporting Dean for DNC gives Hillary some kudos from the Dem Hardline (us), while simultaneously taking Dean out of the 2008 race. THIS IS A FACT. True, Dean is running for DNC, but if his bid fails HE HAS STATED THAT HE WOULD RUN IN 2008.

JB

[lancdem]

67. You missed my entire point

Dean obviously cares more about being DNC chair than running for president, or else he wouldn't have made himself a candidate for chair in the first place. And he clearly wants the job becaus he's campaigning for it hard. It sounds to me like you'd rather not have Dean as chair. If that's not the case, and I'm wrong, what are you complaining about?

BTW, I hate to break it you, but politicans have ambitions. Even Dean (gasp!) does. And it's actually not a bad thing.

[Zhade]

75. But didn't it take Dean a while to announce?

I seem to recall a "draft Dean"-style grassroots support for him as chair before he threw his hat in the ring.

That being the case, perhaps his decision to run was influenced by all that support?

[radio4progressives]

94. Dean isn't the one campaigining *hard* - it's the PROGRESSIVE GRASSROOTS

campaigning HARD and LOBBYING HARD - and it's been a lot of great fun, btw.

[radio4progressives]

92. LOL! You Go Truth Seeker! n/t

[sasquatch]

82. Dr. Dean will reattach your balls now Senate Democrats

:kick:

[radio4progressives]

93. translation please! n/t