Taser Used on Woman in S.C. Nursing Home

[biftonnorton]

"A police officer used a stun gun on a 75-year-old woman who became distraught when she could not locate a sick friend at a nursing home, according to an internal report"

Now, I'm guessing the woman was not gooped up on gop, or weighed 300 lbs, etc., so it sounds like it was a bad Tase. This was clearly not good. The officer got a verbal warning and has to retrain.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=817&ncid=716&e=7&u=/ap/20050129/ap_on_fe_st/brf_taser_nursing_home

[rodeodance]

1. police have a new toy---and it is the people who will suffer.

Lots of bad stories lately about the abuse of taser's!!

They have it --they will use it-simple as that!!

[liberalnurse]

3. I agree that there needs a bit more

education and training with the Taser....but I think it is a fantastic tool. It sure can put a damper on a potentially explosive situation without guns.

[saigon68]

136. They used to use cattle prods

Ask Bull Connors of Birmingham fame --how he used to keep the "Uppity Darkies" moving.

[SmokingJacket]

142. You're assuming the alternative is necessarily guns...

I agree that tasers might be better than shooting someone unnecessarily.

But worse than leaving someone alone to calm down, like this old woman.

The problem, as I see it, is not that the police are using these things instead of guns, which would be GREAT, but that they are using them when before nothing would be used.

[egoprofit]

162. i would have shot that lady (just kidding)

shouldn't cops be educated???

[RockStar]

106. Man now she's falling and she cant get up. I hope the pig felt better that

he shocked the hell out of granny..i bet he went to joke about it with his other buddies in the lockerroom

[Tsiyu]

114. I think it was a female officer. n/t

[Demit]

2. A 50,000-volt Taser on an elderly woman. Old people and children

getting tasered by the police. What a wonderful world we live in.

[liberalnurse]

6. All this whining will

cause the use of force to resume back to old reliable, guns.......
Lets focus on more training with the Taser.....the kinks have to be worked out like with all new toys.

[Rose Siding]

60. It's no toy

And I really don't recall any stories of police shooting old women in nursing homes.

Training and kinks are not this weapon's only problems.

Report: Lab backs away from 'safe' finding on Tasers

According to a report in Friday's New York Times, the laboratory cited by Scottsdale-based stun gun manufacturer Taser International in a release calling the weapons "safe and effective" now is saying they may be dangerous and that more study is needed.

In an Oct. 18 statement, Taser officials cited a Department of Defense study by the Human Effects Center of Excellence (HECOE), which was established by the Air Force Research Laboratory and the Joint Non-Lethal Weapons Program. "The HECOE study is the latest chapter in a series of comprehensive medical and scientific studies which conclude that Taser technology is safe and effective," said Rick Smith, Taser's chief executive.

According to the Times article as reported by Reuters, the Air Force Research Laboratory disclosed last week at a symposium that the guns may be dangerous and that more information is necessary to evaluate any risks.

Taser weapons "may cause several unintended effects, albeit with estimated low probabilities of occurrence. Available laboratory data are too limited to adequately quantify possible risks of ventricular fibrillation or seizures, particularly in susceptible populations," the laboratory said, according to the Times.

http://phoenix.bizjournals.com/phoenix/stories/2004/11/22/daily37.html

That doesn't even address the fact that the weapon's supposed non-lethality itself has led to its abuse.

[liberalnurse]

69. The woman who was

was given the Taser was a Visitor....not a resident of the nursing home. She did not live there....

[Rose Siding]

82. I don't know what difference her residency status makes

She was in the home when the incident occured. Suddenly, in 2005, no one can find a better way to diffuse this kind of situation than what might be used on cattle? It strains credulity.

It's an insult to good cops. Hasn't society learned anything how and why the public relates to police?

[liberalnurse]

88. The answer to your question is in the flow of

the thread. Essentially, and in summary, there was confusion regarding Tasing a 75 year old who some may of understood to be residing at the nursing home....some thought she could of been given a sedative. Others have linked nurses to some higher standard in posting an opinion wherein the situation only occurred at a nursing home and had nothing to do with nurses regarding the Taser. Nurses did call for police assistance.

[Name removed]

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[neuvocat]

127. Especially a nurse.

How anyone could say they're in the medical field and make such a stand is far beyond me.

[liberalnurse]

140. We do not have all the facts........

I won't go after the officer without more information. The nursing home staff felt threatened and compelled to call the police which tells me there is more to the story. The nursing home staff may of been protecting the resident per request of family or guardian ...we just don't know yet.

My first impression would be to question the Taser event but without more information, I won't assume it was just a trigger happy officer. The nursing home staff felt threatened for some reason which we have not heard the rational.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

141. I think at this point we DO have enough facts.

This isn't a preliminary news account. The police have already investigated the incident and stated it was an improper use of a taser. If the victim had had a weapon or attacked a resident or employee of the nursing home, I'm sure that would have been mentioned already. The police officer only claimed that the woman raised or swung her arm - and the woman denies that.

Now, I do agree with you that some posters on this thread are making certain assumptions. For example, some people seem to think that a 75-year-old woman is necessarily feeble and easy to overpower. That's not always the case. Some people even seem to think that this woman was a resident of the nursing home, when she was actually just a visitor.

However, you are making a few assumptions yourself. You assume that because police had to be called in the first place that the woman must have been out of control. But it's possible the woman was merely insisting that she wouldn't leave until she got to see her friend. The staff may have chosen (correctly) to call the police to get her to leave rather than physically bouncing her out of the building. You also say something further down on this thread that suggests the taser must have been warranted or otherwise the officer wouldn't have had to resort to using it. But that is just circular reasoning.

The most I will say in this officer's "defense," if you want to call it that, is that her decision to use the taser was probably only the final error in a string of errors leading up to that point. Did the nursing home staff do everything they could to defuse the situation early on? Did they treat the woman with dignity and compassion, explaining why they couldn't provide the information she was requesting? Did they suggest any alternative courses of action the woman could take? Did they try to reassure her that her friend was probably fine? I don't know. It's possible they did handle the situation as best they could and that the woman was simply a troublemaker.

After that, did the police dispatcher get all the important information? Was there a good reason why the officer was sent into that situation without a partner or other backup -- especially since it was likely the officer would have to use forceful means to remove the woman? When the officer arrived, did SHE first try using any negotiating skills to defuse the situation, or did she immediately go to threat of force and then force? Did she attempt to assess the mental state of the woman? And, if not, we might even go back to a much earlier point and ask whether this officer's training was sufficient -- training in "talking" skills, training in how to do physical "holds" on people to avoid injury, training in the proper application of a taser (IMO a tool of last resort).

I think it's entirely possible that the physical superiority gap between the officer and the nursing home visitor is not quite as large as many are assuming. It's possible the officer did not resort to the use of her taser simply out of a sadistic impulse. The officer may have chosen the method she felt would put herself at the least risk. However, that does not justify her actions. A police officer should not simply do what puts him/herself at the least risk but consider the safety of others. If you are not willing to take any reasonable risk, you should probably be in another line of work. Also, if she did not feel confident at being able to subdue the woman using a physical hold, she probably should have requested backup.


...my two cents

[liberalnurse]

143. That is a beautiful reply.

Thats all I can say right now.....:bounce:

[Tsiyu]

148. A 75-year old woman may be stronger than imagined

but in nine years of hospital work - with the mentally ill, the distraught and the delusional, I never saw any professional use that level of force on an elderly person, and never felt it necessary to use that level of force myself. Acting like a fucking human being is always nice, i say.

What part about "The officer was written up and forced to attend retraining" doesn't sink in with people here?

[chimpy the poopthrower]

152. What part of my post do you object to?

It seems to me like we're essentially on the same side, but your post feels pretty hostile toward me. Care to point out the exact area where you disagree? The one point you addressed is one that you yourself also made, so that can't be the part you object to.
:shrug:

[Tsiyu]

153. I wasn't objecting to your post

so much as saying to all ( your post inspired it) : there IS NO JUSTIFICATION for tasering an old lady. None. Period.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

154. ok, sorry I misunderstood

:pals:

[TX-RAT]

157. Thank You

My wifes been the DON of a local nursing home for almost 20 years. Some of the story's i hear are amazing. 80 year old Alzheimer's patient stabbing each other, fighting, stealing. Sometimes i think we forget just how dangerous some of these situations can get. There are nurses and aids that get injured weekly by elderly patients.
In some cases Mom and Pop just ain't the same people they used to be.
Sometimes i wish we'd go back to the way it used to be. When i was a kid my grandmother came to live with us, as did most peoples parents when life became to difficult for them. It was easier back then, none of the women worked. Now with todays economy thats an impossibility.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[DS1]

74. I did. And it was deleted.

Then I got PMed about it, and backed up my argument.

As I said in the reply PM, anyone that can pass a law enforcement physical fitness test DOES NOT NEED TO FUCKING TASER A 75 YEAR OLD WOMAN!!

For fucks sake !

[Bo]

77. What F****ing idiot would taser a 75

year old? And why is this looked upon as normal?

[liberalnurse]

83. It's best to discuss the issues....

I'm fine with that, I love the debate...thats why I'm here. So, leave my profession out of the discussion please. It is not relevant. We all work at something and live our own private lives while we post here....as mothers, fathers, lawyers, ministers, policeman....and if one disagrees with another...we don't need to attack them personally thought their profession or lifestyle.

Example, if someone had a screen name say, Grannyshoes...and she is an elderly grandmother of 75 years.....Would it be fair to attack her in this thread, because she is a grandmother of 75 years of age, assuming she should know all about grandmothers and 75 year old ladies behavior? Should we disregard the fact she wanted more data on why the woman visiting at the nursing home was Tased, giving the benefit of the doubt into discussion? If she elected to take a similar stance as I have here would the poster get the same abuse I am?

I am proud of my honorable profession as a nurse and will defend it every time. This thread has nothing to do with me as a nurse. Nothing at all with the issues of discussion. The attacks are inappropriate.

[Name removed]

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[Divine Discontent]

91. EXACTLY DS1! preach it...

it'd be like me saying blasphemy and having martyred being mentioned in my username. some people's attitudes about this horrible device! It needs redesigned, the flippin manufacture realizes it even.

[leesa]

94. Certainly does. I'm a nurse and your attitude is appalling to me.

[liberalnurse]

96. Explain what is so

appalling? As a nurse to a nurse on an non-nursing thread.

[liberalnurse]

118. Being a nurse aide

does not count......

[DS1]

120. are we fishing again?

:eyes:

[Midlodemocrat]

101. Well put.

I totally agree.

[liberalnurse]

78. My screen name or username

has absolutely nothing to do with discussion about a visitor who got a Taser sting and who just happened to be at a nursing home.....It has nothing to do with nursing......


Unjustified attacks can make a long time DU member become discouraged from the board activity.

No, I don't have to get over it, I have no shame today. Such attacks should not occur. I've been here since 2002 and my name has always been respected until today.

[ScreamingMeemie]

97. Yowza! Hello? Never should an elderly woman be restrained in this manner.

Obviously the officer was in the wrong for she received a verbal warning and has to retrain. To think otherwise is just taking the opposite side purely to be oppositional in my opinion. No way, No how should that officer have even thought of using a taser in this case.

[Tsiyu]

73. I agree. The elderly and children are the weakest

members of our society. Anyone who must use violence or pain to control a distraught elderly person is a shameful, lowdown coward. In this case, the officer was found to be in the wrong and ordered to attend retraining.

What place have we come to where people can call torture devices toys and can also justify torturing the weakest of us? My guess is the staff were acting like assholes. She loves her friend and they denied her HUMANITY and treated her like a criminal for asking about her friend's whereabouts. They PROVOKED a person and DENIED HER HUMANITY.

This officer only used her Taser ( further denying the woman's HUMANITY-) to shut up a woman who was being treated like shit and didn't just take it.

SICK AND SHAMEFUL!!!!!!!!!

[Divine Discontent]

90. thank you buddyhollysghost

at least YOU get it. and that it's just not a "sting" as a certain person who complains about anyone questioning her words, called it. It's electrocution!

[Tsiyu]

113. You're welcome

I wish I didn't get it: that mercy and empathy are DEAD.

:cry:

[shanti]

128. children....

yes, and i believe that there have been a few incidents where children have been tazed too. florida? this appalls me.

[struggle4progress]

72. Bill allows lethal force on Taser users (Arizona Daily Sun)

By HOWARD FISCHER
Capitol Media Services
01/27/2005

PHOENIX -- House Speaker Jim Weiers is pushing to give police officers clear authority to kill someone who aims a Taser stun gun at them -- and, by extension, grant that same right to everyone else.

The legislation, unveiled Wednesday, would make it a crime to threaten a peace officer with a "remote stun gun." That is defined as a device that shoots out electrodes that administer a shock that could disable someone, and which leaves behind some coded pieces of paper to trace the weapon.

That definition meets the specifications of the device manufactured by Scottsdale-based Taser Corp.

It's also the definition of what would be legal to sell in Arizona -- a definition that would lock Taser's main competitor out of the market here. <snip>

http://www.azdailysun.com/non_sec/nav_includes/story.cfm?storyID=102403


'Shoot-to-kill' policy for police threatened with Tasers?

Robert Anglen
The Arizona Republic
Jan. 26, 2005 07:56 PM

Police should have the right to shoot and kill any suspect who threatens them with a stun gun, state lawmakers said Wednesday when they took a step toward legislating the weapon in Arizona.

The proposed law would also require stun gun manufacturers to keep and maintain a registry of stun gun buyers who must provide a government-issued identification and an address before taking possession of the weapon.

House Speaker Jim Weiers, R-Phoenix, who introduced the legislation, said it seeks to head off abuse of a weapon that has been unregulated and is becoming more and more accessible to the public. <snip>

Attorney General Terry Goddard said in a statement Wednesday that he supports the legislation because it makes clear that while stun guns are "non-lethal" weapons, they can be deadly in the wrong hands.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0126taser-ON2.html


Proposal would allow use of lethal force on suspects with stun guns

Associated Press
Jan. 26, 2005 06:10 PM

<snip> Arizona law already allows officers to use lethal force when suspects threaten with them with objects such as rocks. But the law doesn't specifically prohibit a suspect from coming at an officer with a stun gun, said Andy Swann, president of the Arizona Police Association, which represents 6,700 officers. <snip>

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0126az-stunguns26-ON.html

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

156. You're joking right?

:shrug:

[liberalnurse]

9. She should of listened to the officer.

Was she deaf?

[Demit]

20. perhaps she was, liberal nurse.

and that's "should have", not should of.

[liberalnurse]

26. Perhaps......

but I seriously doubt it because she was out of control to the point the nursing staff felt threatened......enought to call for police support.

[Name removed]

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[xynthee]

159. Thank you!!

That's been driving me CRAZY!!

[Tsiyu]

163. The grammar or the police call?

The fact that police were called means nothing. I suppose most of you have never heard of "malicious abuse of process."

[tblue37]

43. Don't you remember

the deaf, blind 71-year-old woman who was wrestled to the ground by the cops and pepper-sprayed so violently in the face that her false eyeball fell out of her head? Then, when her 94-year-old mother brought out a 2-qt Tupperware container full of water to wash the eyeball, the cops slammed her against the wall because, as they claimed, they thought the 94-year-old she might use the water as a weapon.

Why was the 71-year-old taken down in the first place? Well, that deaf old lady didn't listen when the cops told her to stop walking toward an old wagon she was trying to retrieve.

I am severely hearing-impaired. I suppose I deserve to be Tasered for it, too.

I can't believe there are people who will defend such abuse of power and call our complaints about it "whining." No, the cops should not go back to using guns. The old lady didn't need to be shot, either.

Frankly, I don't believe she swung at the cop. I believe that is an after-the-fact excuse for having abused her, just like the idea that the 94-year-old woman in Oregon might have used two quarts of water as a dangerous weapon against two burly male cops.

But even if she did, she was 75 years old. If she needed to be "handled," nursing home attendants are trained to do just that, using the Mandt hoold, not using Tasers or guns. They don't have Tasers to use in nursing homes, and yet they manage to handle all those old folks without shooting them, even when the old folks get upset and physical.

When she was an undergraduate, my daughter worked as an aide in a home for developmentally disabled adults. She was trained to manage her clients when they got angry and violent, and somehow managed to do that without a Taser or a gun.

Why the hell can't out police do that? Maybe because they consider civilians to be undermensch and deserving of whatever the cops dish out, unless they obey immediately any command given by anyone in authority?

Here is a link to the story about the Tasering of the deaf, blind old lady and her mother:
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/steve_duin/index.ssf?/base/news/1082807738251705.xml

[RCPJAP]

80. Maybe she was hard of hearing

Maybe she was hard of hearing. Most people lose their hearing as they age. I think the use of the taser was excessive force. If the officer did have a punch thrown at him by the woman, as he claims, he should have blocked the punch and then handcuffed her, in other words, used manual restraint. Instead, the officer chose to take the time to get the taser off his belt and use it. The situation could have been solved effectively using manual restraint, as I seriously doubt a 75 year old woman has the strength to overpower the officer. Seems to me this officer is trigger happy.

[Name removed]

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[JohnLocke]

105. That is the most idiotic comment on this thread (nt).

[shanti]

129. the woman was distraught at not finding her friend

perhaps her friend had died and she just lost it. what happened to the compassion? instead, she was punished. sickening.

[tom_paine]

160. And we are living in the "Good Old Days'. Things about to get much worse

I wouldn't give a bucket of warm spit for the poor bastards alive in Imperial Amerika in 2050.

Not a bucket of warm spit.

[cornermouse]

4. A big fat lawsuit waiting to happen.

If it hasn't already happened, someone's heart is going to be shorted out by a taser. Verbal waring and retraining seems a rather mild punishment for the offense.

[liberalnurse]

19. She would loose......

The police were called to the scene which was unmangable....Any reasonable adult would chill out with the presence of an officer.

[Bonobo]

23. Loose? Should of? Ooops.

[snoochie]

47. Did you miss "unmangable"?

[cornermouse]

27. With all due respect, she's 75 years old.

Sometimes, especially when people are 75 years old, they get dementia, Alzheimers, Parkinsons, or a combination of them. Due to illness, they aren't reasonable.

Also, you wouldn't think that there are very many 75 year old women who are capable of doing any real harm to a policeperson. Perhaps you're worried about a defenseless policeperson mussing up their hair or their uniform?

You're not taking a very reasonable position, especially for someone who calls themself a nurse.

[liberalnurse]

31. True......and dementia may or may not

of been a issue. I ask, was she alone and did she drive her self there? I'm looking at gathering data on mental capacity. She also seemed to be articulate with the facts as she saw them.....An Alzheimer's client may not be so accurate and deliberate in repeating a statement....


Oh, don't even go and attack me as a nurse....You are way out of your league.

[MadisonProgressive]

35. dementia may or may not HAVE been AN issue.

Sorry to nitpick, but you are driving be nuts with your grammar.

[liberalnurse]

38. Excuse me.....

What is your point?

[MadisonProgressive]

It should be obvious from my post.

[Name removed]

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[liberalnurse]

174. You do not need to read any of my

replies if it hurts you that bad. I think you are making a fool of yourself. Many are reading this thread and see what your focus really is all about. It has nothing to do with the debate or discussion issue of this post. You just appear frustrated and impotent. I only feel pity for you.

[Tsiyu]

176. You speak for many?

Many spoke up about your grammar prior to me. I only support what they said.

I disagree with your opinion on this matter. Very, very strongly. I never attacked your job as a nurse, though others did on this thread, but I will damn sure challenge someone who claims to be an expert ( "How many blah blah blah have you defused...?" Your question- not mine.) on this issue. I worked in the medical field, in two downtown general ERs and a Pediatric ER. I know volatile situations, gunshot wounds, abusive parents, delusional seniors, been locked in the psych ward just like the patients- when you go give a breathing treatment or fix a ventilator you get locked in there with everyone else.

A taser has no place in this situation. If my saying so earns your scorn, I will be happy to earn it.

[liberalnurse]

177. You are making false statements and it is unacceptable. .

You have a very vivid imagination and you can not back-up your claims. Not in this thread. Your frustration at the article event has been transfered onto me. I will not accept that nor tolerate such behavior. I request that you please stop.

[TX-RAT]

167. Now thats funny.

Sorry to nitpick, but you are driving ( be ) nuts with your grammar.
be?
And I'm laughing my ass off at yours.

[cornermouse]

36. No, I am not out of my league.

You don't know the law.

[liberalnurse]

39. Well, obviously you don't......

At least when it comes to chemical restraint of strangers.....

This 75 year old is not in the Emergency Room....She is on private property and not under the medical control of the "house physician".


She did not live there.....she was a visitor.

snip>

Macon was called to the nursing home after Margaret Kimbrell refused to leave.

[Name removed]

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[Rose Siding]

107. It's happening with greater frequency already

from the last few days...

Settlement reached in stun gun death
Family of inmate to receive $500,000; 2 counties admit no liability in incident
http://www.indystar.com/articles/8/211115-9028-103.html

snip>
A Georgia district attorney says some of the police officers involved in the “taser” death of a man could face criminal charges.

The Gwinnett County D.A. is reviewing the case from last may where Frederick Jerome Williams died two days after being subdued by police tasers.
http://www.wtvynews4.com/home/headlines/1375511.html

snip>
(CBS 5 NEWS) A Mesa police officer who is being sued by a man injured after he was shocked with a Taser, has resigned.

During a February 11 burglary call at a home, Maxwell Van Natter used a Taser on 32-year-old Bruce Bellemore who had climbed up a tree.

That shock sent Bellemore falling out of the tree, and he’s now a quadraplegic.
http://www.kpho.com/Global/story.asp?S=2839624


SANTA BARBARA, Calif. (AP) - Supervisors are concerned about Taser stun gun safety.

The Sheriff's Department wants to buy 250 of the so-called non-lethal devices, but the Board of Supervisors expressed apprehensions about their safety because of at least 80 deaths nationwide.

http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/state/10720888.htm?1c

[Rush1184]

5. I think police officers are trying to see who can phaser the most

vulnerable people. Seriously, someone could have just tried to calm her down or helped her find her friend, or even gave her a damn sedative. I am glad she did not have a heart condition. These people sometimes have as much compassion as a brick wall.

[liberalnurse]

8. How many threatening,

potentially explosive, public situations have you defused with talking? Also, one needs a physicians order to give a sedative...that may take a few hours to secure.

The Taser is an effective, timely restraint. We just heard one side of the story.

[Rush1184]

21. She was in a Nursing Home...

This means there was an on call Doctor, who could have sedated her instead. It would have taken no longer to do that than to call the police and have them come taser her.

Also, I have defused many situations with rational conversation, and it has prevented many altrications.

[liberalnurse]

25. No, the nursing home physician

can not order chemical restraint on visitors. The only authority present to restrain was the police officer.

Only the visitors attending physician could prescribe a sedative....and the thought would be unrealistic.

[cornermouse]

28. You are wrong. You are SO wrong.

Got you on this one.

[liberalnurse]

32. No you don't.....

It would never happen legally. I dare you to call a physician and ask if he or she would do such a thing......

Be sure to say all the facts....a stranger, a visitor.....not a resident of the home he or she is listed as an attending.

They would be sued.......faster than I can say law suit.

[cornermouse]

34. Legally speaking. You are wrong. For starters.

http://www.cms.hhs.gov/manuals/pm_trans/R20SOM.pdf

Start at the bottom half of page 3 and keep reading the federal guidelines. What state do you live in?

[liberalnurse]

44. These guidelines are for

RESIDENTS of the nursing home, folks who live there and are under the direct care of the facility........not VISITORS off the street.

There isn't a doctor of good standing who would prescribe a chemical restraint order for any individual sight/unseen nor would a reasonable nurse administer such an order.

Yes, I'm well aware of the restraint policy and procedure for the residents of a nursing home.....very strict and necessary guidelines.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

45. cornermouse, all those regulations seem to apply to RESIDENTS

I don't agree with all of liberalnurse's positions on this thread, but I do think he/she is probably correct here. If it were my mother who was just VISITING a friend in a nursing home, I wouldn't want her tasered, but I also wouldn't want her injected with some kind of sedative without her consent.

[liberalnurse]

49. Thank you .....

and indeed, a more skilled nurse and officer could probably defuse the situation. Not having all the facts, the history of protection for this specific resident....I'll hold out before trashing the officer... We only got part of the story. The fact that the officer had to be called makes me a bit more hesitant to judge too quickly.

Typically, someone who works at the nursing home, in such a rural setting, probably new the visitor and could of assisted in defusing the situation having previous trust established....That did not occur....apparently they really felt threatened. It's a real pain in the butt to involve the police in ones day of work.....it would not of been a simple call.

[Name removed]

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[TX-RAT]

168. If you think the police take to long to get there.

Call the Doctor and see how long it takes them. There are times when my wife calls the doctor, it takes hours and sometimes days for them to respond.

[ultraist]

166. Why do you mention this, if it's illegal and NOT an option?

"...one needs a physicians order to give a sedative...that may take a few hours to secure."

[liberalnurse]

178. It is called being kind and gentle with

a fellow DU'er who is trying to understand the situation. It is not always necessary to be ultra correct and technical in a simple discussion. The issue was clarified in a reply within this thread....some where....

[tblue37]

46. Yeah, what was the deal with that?

Why wouldn't they tell her about her friend? It seems as though the nursing home was at fault, too.

The fact that they wouldn't tell her about her friend and that when she got upset they called in the cops suggests that they have a very nasty attituted toward their patients and their patients' visitors.

Nursing home employees are sometimes underpaid, overworked, angry, and resentful of the people they take care of. It sounds as though a situation was created unnecessarily and then escalated--by the nursing home people and then by the cop.

[liberalnurse]

51. HIPAA Law......

Must be followed........

[MadisonProgressive]

53. There is no such thing as HIPPA law...

[liberalnurse]

54. Thank you ....

I stand corrected. HIPAA is the correct reference.

[TX-RAT]

169. Why wouldn't they tell her about her friend?

Some info is only available to immediate family.

[Bo]

79. Law enforcement is not for the brightest.

[NashVegas]

7. What In Hell Has Happened to Compassion?

Macon was called to the nursing home after Margaret Kimbrell refused to leave. Kimbrell has said she was distraught after the staff would not disclose the location of her sick friend, and she became concerned the friend had died.

Was this nursing home so short-staffed there was no one they could call - the visitor's or the sick woman's family - either to see if it would be okay to let the woman visit her friend, or if there was someone in her family who could talk to her and calm her down?

How much of a threat to their security rules could a 75 year old be?

[liberalnurse]

10. HIPPA Law prohibits

sharing such information without consent. I see the difficulty daily but if violated, then there will be a law suit.

[NashVegas]

11. But, But, But

This item happened in South Carolina. These kind of rules are bent daily in the South. If nothing else, I think the staff could probably have used a little more patience with this woman and tried to make the rules plain to her, and what she'd need to do to get clearance, unless she was being beligerant and abusive.

[liberalnurse]

15. Indeed, one can skirt the HIPPA Law

if you take the time to answer a question with a statement such as:

" I can neither confirm or deny such a resident but I strongly suggest you seek......." One can facilitate information carefully and in general and still be informative. The typical staff in a nursing home are managed by LPNs with 9 months training.....they may not have the verbal skills or insight" to defuse the visitor. ...they just blatantly follow the rules.

There have been serious crimes too upon the residents of nursing homes wherein such screening was not followed.I sense the nursing staff contacted the Director of Nursing before calling the police....there may be history here....we don't have all the facts.

[kutastha]

42. FYI, it's not HIPPA

Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

58. They handled it poorly. I've SUED enough nursing homes to speculate

better on this subject than you.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

57. HIPAA laws DO NOT prohibit the staff from calling the family and

informing them that a family friend is present. You are stretching there. Your posts on this thread are an abomination and no she will not "loose" her lawsuit. The officer was reprimanded. That alone is enough to demonstrate that the use of force was beyond what would be considered reasonable regardless of whether the woman was charged with a crime or not.

[liberalnurse]

59. Calling the family would be an

excellent idea and reasonable option. Now, we do not know if that was done nor do we know if the resident had any family to contact. They, the nursing staff, may of called the listed family and no one answered.They needed an immediate response. I sense the staff may of deferred the visit for another day until clearance was obtained.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

67. Whatever you "sense" may have nothing to do with the facts

People usually don't get hysterical when reasonable options are taken. Either way...the use of force was excessive as demonstrated by the reprimand of the officer.

[Name removed]

135. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Oilwellian]

65. Nurse Ratched....

Nurse Ratched, are you there? :D :hi:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

68. *snarf*

:hi:

[Midlodemocrat]

100. Actually, that is not accurate

While HIPAA does prevent the disclosure of information about an individual in a hospital or in a doctor's care, the presumption for nursing homes and assisted living facilities is that if an individual arrives during visitor hours asking for an individual, the family or the patient has given consent. It is called implied consent.

The reason behind this is that how would the visitor know which nursing home the friend was in if the family/patient didn't inform them?

I know when HIPAA was enacted there was a lot of concern about this issue with the elderly in nursing homes and assisted living facilities, so the law was redressed to answer these concerns. It was felt at the time that enforcing HIPPA at these facilities would largely lead to abandonment of those who need companionship the most.

[liberalnurse]

103. Excellent information......

I for one have not heard of this essential point. It also is not shared adequately at the nursing homes either..... I have attended some of their orientations wherein HIPAA is required...your information is not a part of the program.

Do you have a link? I imagine that may be difficult so don't work too hard. I will share this with those who need to work a little harder and find the facts.



:bounce:

[Midlodemocrat]

108. I actually only have hard copy

because my husband helped to draft HIPAA. I am sure he has links, so I will get them and post them.

You might not have heard the information addressed at your sessions because I believe that portion of the law was only addressed to nursing homes.

And FWIW, when my dad was hospitalized this summer, I was given a number to use when I called in to see how he was. He was there for eight weeks and I called 4-5 times a day when I was not actually at the hospital with him and I was not once asked for the number or code. My family who lives out of state was also never asked.

My point being, HIPAA is still in its infancy and not applied uniformly, but intent of the legislation is excellent.

[liberalnurse]

109. I would so appreciate the information

in a PM if possible. I'm not always looking at DU. Take your time of course. I'll share this with my friends at the District ONA meeting next month. This is good stuff.

[Midlodemocrat]

110. What state are you in?

I ask because hubby says different states have different codicils, so I want to send you the correct one.

Never mind that question.

Here is the link to FAQ on the hhs site. Hope this is helpful.

http://answers.hhs.gov/cgi-bin/hhs.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_sid=hZjDMMwh&p_lva=&p_faqid=483&p_created=1067889406&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9ncmlkc29ydD0mcF9yb3dfY250PTEwJnBfc2VhcmNoX3RleHQ9JnBfY2F0X2x2bDE9NyZwX2NhdF9sdmwyPTMyJnBfcGFnZT0x&p_li=

[liberalnurse]

111. Ohio......

With permission, I will share it at the Ohio Nurses Association meeting......It will flow with our nursing topic about legal issues....

[Midlodemocrat]

112. Be my guest.

I got it off the HHS.gov website...there is a section on privacy issues, etc. It is a good site in case you haven't seen it...it answers questions about privacy issues in a really straightforward manner without all the legalese.

[MadisonProgressive]

138. It makes sense

that if this is considered that person's residence, if someone came asking for them, the NH would have to either inform the resident that they had a visitor, or explain to the visitor why they cannot do so.

[brentspeak]

12. Apparently, some cops want an excuse to use their new toy (n/t)

[havocmom]

117. BINGO It's not (usually) lethal but it knocks people on their butts

Had that training thing and just wanna see what this baby will do! If a weapon is made, somebody is gonna wanna see what it will do.

While I truly believe most cops are good, caring people, there are some in it for the power and the psych screening doesn't catch em all. Sounds like this officer might benefit from more than just taser retraining. Some more work with diffusing emotional situations by peaceful means might be good for the officer AND the community at large.

[biftonnorton]

13. Tasers Good For Compliance When Subj Armed Or Physically Dangerous

and I'm all for them b/c they reduce incidence of harm to subject and officers in those cases. The story mentioned no weapon, and I'll guess the elderly woman wasn't hulking. If she was running around in an out-of-control tizzy and being disruptive, that doesn't seem to call for much more than just clearing the area for a while to let her spin down. Physically trying to control the elderly woman might have resulted in one of her limbs snapping off. I have a feeling, tho, that this woman would've run out of steam quickly without being Tasered. Give the department credit for acknowledging that this was a "bad Tase" and sending that message out to other officers by its action against this officer.

edited for clarifying o' opinion

[ernstbass]

22. Far too many "bad tasings" especially on kids and the elderly

[tblue37]

48. Don't forget the guy in the wheelchair.

[sherilocks]

29. You clearly haven't been in a nursing home

It's almost impossible to "clear the area." Half the patients are unable to walk and have been wheeled out into the hall, some are alzheimers patients who couldn't be instructed to do anything, some of whom are violent, others have conditions that would make them extremely traumatized by an out of control visitor, possibly leading to heart attacks.

I don't know all the facts, and I'm willing to hold off on any opinion until I know what went on in this case. Tasers are always a better option than guns, assuming you are dealing with an unarmed, violent person.

[BiggJawn]

14. Cha-CHING!

Bernie tells the assemblage: "Buy my product?"

[liberalnurse]

17. So what......

I still advocate for the Taser anyday over a 9 mm.

[annarbor]

81. There are so many more options than the two that you listed...

Guns and tasers are the last steps in a force continuum that officers are taught to use. If the 74 year-old woman was unarmed, the the use of the taser is not only excessive, but unwarranted.

Ann Arbor

[BiggJawn]

145. So those are the ONLY two options?

Boy, Cattle Prod or a bullet...We've come a long way as a culture, havent we? Sounds like Stalin's Russia.

Guess they don't use "Come-Along" holds, or Judo, or handcuffs anymore.

Of COURSE they don't. Less risk of ruining an expensive cop suit when you deal out pain from afar...

[madrchsod]

16. sure hope i never end up in a shit hole

like that nursing home. if they can`t control someone like her what the hell do they do to the people who live there? i worked in a nursing home for a year and the nurses always could defuse a situation without using psychical harm.
why not use a cattle prod? cheaper and just as effective,but i guess it`s not politically correct for a photo op. maybe it`s to close to their truth..people are just animals.

[liberalnurse]

18. Most all nursing homes are

shit holes. Our inmates in jail or prison get better care.

[Massachusetts]

24. Correct! but remember we are a Kinder and Gentler Nation

(SARCASM):grr:

[okcdem]

85. Thats Total BS

If you had any idea what America's prisons were like you would never make such an uninformed statement.

[liberalnurse]

95. I have seen both settings.....

the correction setting and the nursing home. The inmates have it so much better......It would be an entirely new thread to discuss the pro-cons of each environment. Heath care is excellent for the inmates, that is a given. The elderly are almost victimized as they lack a strong advocacy voice on an individual level.

[azmesa207]

121. I have seen both settings

what the hell state do you live in My wife has worked in Nursing home for 30 years in Iowa and AZ and the people In thoes states get excellent care .

[Ilsa]

30. I think police and security people need more training in effective

communications. They need help in learning how to talk to people who are upset, frightened, or distraught. I suspect many of these violent incidents could have been avoided by someone who understands human nature better.

[Rose Siding]

52. There you go

That would be money better spent and would move society in a more positive direction. What an indignity to have a class of armed people who can prod the rest of us like cattle with little consequence.

It's very naive to think that police only have run-ins with bad guys who deserve to be subjected to electric shock.

There was an octogenarian who got zapped in a northern state, and children have been "subdued" in a number of cases. How did cops ever get by before? Has there been some skyrocketing crime or officer injury trend that's escaped notice?

Maybe it's a result of post Sept 11 Law and Order politics. If every cop had the discernment, self-restraint, judgment, compassion, wisdom and character of Sheriff Taylor, it might be a Tool worth considering. There are some terrific cops but abuse of power is a fact of the human condition. It is to be expected and should come as no surprise.

Tasers are being loosed on us with such zeal, carrying the promise of non-lethality and little consequence to misuse. Hardly anyone dies, there hasn't been any damning video footage or photos of swollen faces or mashed limbs, so what we get is a refining of "policy".

Louisville, KY got them this month. Out of 26 incidents, 11 were counted as misfires or malfunctions -a statistic that induces little confidence in the product, even beyond its potential for abuse.

[MadisonProgressive]

33. I guess the officer is too weak to restrain her physically.

[liberalnurse]

37. He had choices.....

he may or may not of chosen poorly.

The nursing staff obviously felt threatened......Why? Because there could be documented history with this resident suggesting they needed to protect the vulnerable.....We don't have the complete story.

[MadisonProgressive]

40. The police themselves said it was a bad decision

I wonder why you keep defending it?

[liberalnurse]

55. I'll use your own words.....

"Trust your gut".....and my gut tells me to get the complete story. I have already shared my reasons.

[MadisonProgressive]

56. Fair enough! Peace, Out.

[Solon]

122. I object to your reasoning in this case for several reasons...

For one, you seem to have no knowledge of what is apropriate for police to do in a situation like this. Its called appropriate response, and this policewoman violated that alone. As someone earlier in the thread said, the open hand technique should have been used. Let me define what I meant earlier, appropriate response means to only use as much force as is necessary to subdue a suspect, for example, if this woman had a weapon of any sort and was putting either the officer of someone else in imminent danger of her using it. Then that is deadly force, and the officer would not be disciplined for using either a taser or a gun. If she was unarmed, then all other options, particularly considering her age and physical condition, should be attempted before the use of a taser. While taser are classified as less than lethal, they could be considered lethal weapons to many people, depending on age and physical condition, as in this case they should be.

Now, my other objection is this, you seem to have no knowledge as to what a taser does to someone who has been shot by it. I have seen it myself, watching police taser themselves for training, and no, I did not volunteer to be tasered, no way. But I did see the effects, in at least half the cases, people did not go down quitely or anything of that sort. Your muscles in your body will twitch and spasm involuntarily, similar to a Grand Mal Seizure, I know about those too, best friend has epilepsy. The difference is that, particularly if caught standing, they may go down and, I don't know how to describe this, jump around like frogs on a hot plate, I guess that is the closest mental picture. This can be dangerous in close quarters if their are other patients and people around, for no one has control of themselves when this happens.

I don't know about it happening in this particular case, but if this officer was properly trained, she should have seen it herself, and considered that in her decision to use it. Apparently she didn't, and would have put everyone else around the woman in danger by using the taser, so that is why I would object to its use in this situation. Even her own police department reprimanded her, and may penalizer her further, for excessive force.

[liberalnurse]

123. I don't mean to rescue the officer but

only say that there has to be much more to the story to prompt such a response. Indeed, it may be a young, inexperienced officer or there was more to the behavior of the 75 year old, who got the Taser. I'd like more information before casting a rigid opinion. It bothers me that the police had to be called....that alone raises the concern that there was more to the story. I'm not so quick to judge our officers, their job is so tenacious.

I enjoyed your post by the way.

[Conservativesux]

133. Then dont. There is no reason to excuse the cowardice.

[liberalnurse]

139. You crack me up.....

you prefer to lynch someone without all the facts......just go on the first impression and assassinate the profession of an officer.

It's this kind of thinking we all must prevent while we try and make a living in this neo-con administration.

[seriousstan]

151. It was a female officer

[TX-RAT]

170. 75 year old Lady's, break pretty easily.

[MadisonProgressive]

171. They also do when they collapes on the floor due to tasing

[TX-RAT]

172. They fall and break all the time.

[MadisonProgressive]

173. Oh, so we should tase then then?

[tlcandie]

41. Here let's just jump to the next NON-LETHAL....

They pulled some of the nice microwaves out for 2004 GOP...remember? Well, here's the NEXT step of the slippery slope, so no I am NOT for tasering with the history I've seen so far!!

WARNING THE BELOW SNIP MIGHT MAKE YOU SUICIDAL AND EXTREMELY NAUSEOUS!


http://globalresearch.ca/articles/THO501A.html

<snip>
According to veteran combat cameraman Patrick Dillon and interview subject Majid al-Ghazali, the first US forces pushing into Baghdad also tested another electromagnetic “super weapon”.

Compelled to serve in the Iraqi National Guard for more than three decades, Majid is intimately acquainted with conventional weaponry. But on April 12th, 2003, Majid was sheltering with his family in their Baghdad home when he saw an odd-looking tank wheel into their street.

Suddenly a blinding stream of “fire and lightning” shot from the tank, engulfing a passenger bus and three cars. The big bus become semi-molten, sagging “like a wet rag” before shrinking to a twisted blob about the size of a VW bug, Majid says. Hundreds of soldiers and civilians were shriveled “to the size of newborn babies” amidst puddles of metal and fibers from melted tires.
<snip>

I found this info, thanks to poe, via this DU thread..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3021363#3022062

[shanti]

130. omg

this is truly frightening! i am going to research this some more....what kind of world is this now?? :-(

[MrPrax]

61. I'd like to think Peer Pressure might work...

What are the odds that when the Tazer Boys come back to the cop shop, they get harassed and ridiculed by their fellow cops--

"You couldn't even restrain a 75 old woman in a nursing home. What pathetic cops...your a disgrace to the uniform. Jeez wait til the liberals get a hold of this one. They'll say crap like...

'I think it is a fantastic tool. It sure can put a damper on a potentially explosive situation without guns.'...

Oh man you know thoe liberal types"...

But probably not, when the TazerBoys come back to the shop, they will be greeted with "Wicked Bad--RocoCop--what setting did you have it on, she didn't get a heart attack"

High Fives All Round...

[JVS]

116. The officer who tasered the old woman was female, tazerboys is inaccurate

[MrPrax]

125. Oh my faux pas n/t

[Conservativesux]

134. What has the gender of the officer to do with poor performance?

[JVS]

146. The peer pressure mentioned in the post I replied to was...

peer pressure based on an appeal to machismo. That's the relevance

[ismnotwasm]

75. When I worked in a nursing home

We regularly had difficult psychosocial situations to deal with. Several times I have had to call the police because of restraining orders against family members, or allegations of abuse. We've had family members bring guns in--(not threatening, just had them) Come in drunk. We thought one resident was being poisoned by a family member. Had a drug dealer one time, when we were accepting junkies for long-term antibiotic care for the infected abscesses they get from muscling dope. I worked in one for eleven years, and never ran across a situation I remember were I thought a taser was justified, but I could certainly imagining one. A 75 year old woman? Most likely an inexperienced cop without backup, and like liberal nurse says above, nurses also without experience or training to deal with the situation. Any facility should have policies in place to deal with volatile situation, but "should" is just a word.

[liberalnurse]

98. Well said.....

You make clear points of discussion. :yourock:

[genieroze]

87. What's next, taser crying babies in restaurants?

[arikara]

147. More likely will be women breast feeding in public

A glimpse of a bare boob make them crazy!

[Sterling]

93. Wow cops really like that shit huh?

Some people wonder why many do not trust the police.

[Conservativesux]

132. They get really get off on the roughing up part., but an old lady ?

Give me a break !!!

[0007]

99. What a stupid son-of-a-bitch!

[Name removed]

150. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[soup]

102. In the back. Oh, just lovely. A 75 year old woman tasered in the back.

>snip<
Police Chief John Gregory said Macon should have used the "empty-hand technique" - grabbing the suspect's arms or wrists - as the restraint method before using the 50,000-volt Taser.

Macon was called to the nursing home after Kimbrell refused to leave. Kimbrell has said she was distraught after the staff would not disclose the location of her sick friend and she became concerned the friend had died.

Kimbrell jerked away from the officer as she tried to grab her and later swung her arm at Macon's face, according to a police report. The officer then fired the Taser, striking Kimbrell in the back, police said.

Kimbrell, who said she suffered bruises on her leg and face after being knocked to the floor by the force of the device, has claimed she did not swing her arms or threaten Macon.
http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/news/local/10761096.htm

[JVS]

115. Didn't this happen a long time ago. It sounds very familiar

[98geoduck]

124. Part of the stepped up homeland security...we have ways of dealing

with uppity old people in this country.



AKA Mr. Stungun

[Judi Lynn]

126. Communication skills seem in short supply

when no one there seemed to feel it was his/her duty to speak calmly, respectfully with the woman, to explain openly until she understood what the situation was, why they were not allowed to tell her anything more, and how to get a grasp of the situation.

I can't imagine a world in which people really don't feel the need to treat others with the respect they'd pray they'd receive. Is anyone really such an abject failure he/she would resort to violence just because he/she can't communicate well?

Where do these people live? Under front porch "stoops" in the hills?
Christ almighty.

What if she were your grandmother? Would you want some butthead mauling or assaulting her? My parents raised me to avoid going berserk dealing with people!

[Tsiyu]

131. Agreed. But remember

Up in the hills, they wouldn't treat Granny that way. It's the Flatlander Yuppie Society that doesn't like kids or old people messing up their tidy little world.

The fact that this officer was reprimanded should be enough to say, "bad call."

Justifying her use of force is reprehensible to me because one is then encouraging others to do the same.

And please, no "You don't know the situation." I worked in hospitals for nine years. I worked in ICU, CCU, Oncology, Extended Care, Psych Ward, ER, Pediatrics, blah blah blah (was licensed as a Respiratory Care Practitioner.) We NEVER had to resort to this type of force on an elderly person, and, believe me, you would not believe how strong an elderly person can be. Working in a Downtown Atlanta hospital, I saw it all.

The staff of the facility above AND the officer named are common thugs, not fit to work with the public.

[biftonnorton]

137. Self-Delete

[Canuckistanian]

144. Tasers in nursing homes?

WTF???? :wtf:
Whoever had that bright idea should be fired/charged and publicly villified.
But they won't be. Welcome to the Brave New World TM

[seriousstan]

149. This happen on OCTOBER 15!! Why is it posted as LBN?

[Judi Lynn]

155. Just checked the original article, saw the report on it just came out. n/t

[Acryliccalico]

158. NO justification to

do that to a 75 year old woman. NONE!!! :kick:

[KansDem]

165. Time to add a new word to our lexicon?: "Tazy"

Describes going crazy with a Taser. "Tazy" is derived from "Taser" and "crazy" and describes the unwarranted, or overly-free use of a Taser...

"That cop just went plain "tazy" with that 75-year old woman..."