Evolution Takes a Back Seat in U.S. Classes -NYT

[Rose Siding]

Dr. John Frandsen, a retired zoologist, was at a dinner for teachers in Birmingham, Ala., recently when he met a young woman who had just begun work as a biology teacher in a small school district in the state. Their conversation turned to evolution.

"She confided that she simply ignored evolution because she knew she'd get in trouble with the principal if word got about that she was teaching it," he recalled. "She told me other teachers were doing the same thing."
...
"You can imagine how difficult it would be to teach evolution as the standards prescribe in ever so many little towns, not only in Alabama but in the rest of the South, the Midwest - all over," Dr. Frandsen said.

Dr. Eugenie Scott, executive director of the National Center for Science Education, said she heard "all the time" from teachers who did not teach evolution "because it's just too much trouble."

http://nytimes.com/2005/02/01/science/01evo.html

[lazarus]

1. So what do they teach?

This is pathetic. The US is very, very close to becoming completely irrelevant on the world stage, and this anti-intellectualism is one of the reasons.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[VegasWolf]

20. You are most welcome. n/t

[donheld]

82. Did you read the article?

If you did you'll note it mentions this is happening NOT just in Alabama but, all across the south and mid-west. I'll bet if you look, you'll find this true in a far too large part of the country. Even in many blue states. I'm sure Evolution is a big no-no in much of Colorado, and even California. Ask Lou Sheldon.

[VegasWolf]

87. Did you? Read it again. Says that they are teachers in AL. Don't

blame me for Alabama's reputation. Too many redneck
headlines come out of that state. Alabama is almost
self-destructing when it chooses its fundie legislators.

[donheld]

101. I can promise you

Colorado Springs and may other cities in CO are just as bad.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

65. is happening in AL, GA, NC, SC, TX, OH, IN, and all of the red states

[VegasWolf]

88. Sure, but these teachers were in Alabama.n/t

[TransitJohn]

102. Careful

With that broad brush-stroke. I am ALMOST certain that it is not happenning in any part of my home state of Wyoming, reliably red. We have very good schools. In fact, I grew up in the southwest corner of the state (the part tucked neatly into the "missing" corner of Utah), very heavy Mormon population. We were one of like 8 or 10 families in the town who didn't go to the LDS church, all of the teachers/administrators of the school district were LDS, and we received evolution education in elementary, middle, and high schools.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

110. why i'm happy to hear that...good for Wyoming!

[Mac21]

109. Even here in NJ

My dentist shocked me when she told me recently in conversation, "I don't believe in evolution." Could have knocked me over with a feather. This is someone well educated in one science but pretends another doesn't exist.

So beware: It's not just in the "red" states. And all people in the red states are not so narrowminded. We really are a purple nation.

[Azathoth]

3. An interesting statistic from the article

Americans, he said, have been evenly divided for years on the question of evolution, with about 45 percent accepting it, 45 percent rejecting it and the rest undecided.

These numbers sound eerily familiar to me. I'm starting to think the current polarization in the country runs much deeper than anything Dubya has managed to cook up.

[VegasWolf]

5. Excellent point. I am surprised at the 45% number. I didn't think that

there were that many intelligent folks in the country.

[solarize]

6. yes...I think so...

I live in a very red state and almost everyone I know doesn't believe in evolution....they think it is a crackpot theory that can never be proven. Especially with the dinosaur/human footprints found in the west somewhere, several years back (I have no idea what they're talking about). It's really freaky...these folks refuse to believe in anything other than the literal interpretation of the bible.

[Mountainman]

7. That's fine, their kids will reject them when they get older

I was raised Catholic and learned to reject everything I was taught and replased it with research and more education.

[VegasWolf]

8. Not everyone can reach escape velocity, I was the only one in my

Catholic raised family that did.

[Huckebein the Raven]

41. That's true...n/t

[CoffeeCat]

78. I'm a lone escapee, too...

I hail from a Catholic family--a very dysfunctional one.

I'm the only one who reached, as you said, "escape velocity."

Most do not escape. It's much easier, and a lot less painful, to live in denial.

Many families today, are run like micro-cults. Makes sense. Our government operates and propagandizes like a cult.

I'm beginning to think that escapees will soon need an island of their own, as our country rots from the inside out--one person at a time.

[Azathoth]

11. Sadly, I don't think most of them will reject these teachings

The whole purpose of religious education/home schooling/pressure on the public schools to control curriculums is to indoctrinate children before they are able to think for themselves. While a few children will no doubt begin to question some of these teachings as they grow older and are exposed to different ideas, many of them will not.

[brooklynite]

59. When does it make a difference?

I've pondered whether this sort of ideologogical ignorance will actually come back to haunt the new generations as far as their ability to comete for higher level jobs, or more broadly in terms of our ability to compete econonmically with the rest of the world.

[American Tragedy]

120. College will impact the majority of them

No legitimate institution of higher learning is going to play the creationism charade.

[prodigal_green]

19. the Pope doesn't have a problem with evolution

I was raised Catholic but in the liberation theologist tradition where fairy tales were not really the focus...helping the poor was. I never even met a conservative Catholic until I was out of high school.

[Azathoth]

21. Most creationists aren't Catholic n/t

[Montanan]

60. Many Fundies think Catholics aren't even Christians...

...which is another reason I'm beginning to like Catholics.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

69. msot all fundies teach/preach that Catholics are idol worshippers & Satani

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

104. HEAR HEAR!

Catholics also are the ones that believe you can get to heaven if you're good, even if you're not Catholic. Compare and contrast with the Evangelical Taliban.

[bklyncowgirl]

53. Catholics have had an intellectual basis for accepting evolution for years

I remember reading Teilhard de Chardin (sorry murdered that name) back in college. Most Catholics are perfectly comfortable with the concept and view the Bible as a mix of history, legend and analogy.

[rayofreason]

98. Catholics

True, Catholics are more open to a wider view of scripture, but there are limits. The virgin birth is a prime example. It depends how you translate the word "parthenos" - virgin or maiden. Not the same thing. Since I lean toward the "maiden" I am by rights a heretic (as, I suspect, are many here). But it makes it easier for me to accept at face value the Bible when it speaks of James as "the brother of the Lord".

However, the situation of the Catholic church shows that people of faith can accept science. Those people whose faith is brittle are among the ones that have the biggest problems with anything that challenges their interpretation. They feel that if you give an inch, everything will be washed away.

In fact, there is a good argument that fundamentalism (Christian, Jewish, Islamic) is a reaction to modernity and has little to do a restoration of the "faith of our fathers." Certainly ancient people would think the question "Did it really happen?" as an odd one to ask about myths. Augustus had stories written and circulated about his "miraculous" birth. As superstitious as Romans were, they would have recognized the allegorical propaganda these stories represented. Many other cults in the Roman Empire had "mysteries" associated with them. It is only our modern cast of mind that makes us ask "Did it happen?" So even the fundamentalists, in their rejection of the modern, are totally trapped by modernity.

[mutus_frutex]

95. That is partially true...

The rcc has usually embraced ideas (after much time and burning of people, in most cases :-) ) that are not relevant to the dogma or that don't challenge the power of the church. It has embraced them in many cases.

The thing is, it has always done with caveats. In the case of evolution the caveat is clear in both the original Pius XII encyclical and in JP II address to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences:

"The Church’s Magisterium is directly concerned with the question of evolution, for it involves the conception of man: Revelation teaches us that he was created in the image and likeness of God (cf. Gn 1:27-29). The conciliar Constitution Gaudium et spes has magnificently explained this doctrine, which is pivotal to Christian thought. ... It is by virtue of his spiritual soul that the whole person possesses such a dignity even in his body. Pius XII stressed this essential point: if the human body takes its origin from pre-existent living matter, the spiritual soul is immediately created by God. Consequently, theories of evolution which, in accordance with the philosophies inspiring them, consider the mind as emerging from the forces of living matter, or as a mere epiphenomenon of this matter, are incompatible with the truth about man. Nor are they able to ground the dignity of the person."

Cheers..

[phylny]

58. Interestingly, I just read in Newsweek magazine

that the Catholic Church does not discount evolution I was stunned and pleasantly surprised (I'm a former Catholic). I think it shares the same thoughts that I do, that the two do not have to be mutually exclusive.

I believe that the theory of evolution is true and sound, and I also believe the God created the universe in this way - taking whatever billions of years necessary to do it. The creation story in Genesis is, to me, a *story* told to illustrate how God created the universe.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

66. as will college reject them too..and America is screwed if these kids are

going to be our future drs. scientists, and life and death decission makers :scared:...bush "leave ALL US children behind" the rest of the world!

[Lindacooks]

10. Want to mess with their heads?

Ask them:

Which of the two versions of creation in Genesis is true. (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/accounts.html)

1. God created earth out of the swirling waters, then created animals, then Adam and Eve at the same time.

OR

2. God added water to a desert, then created Adam, then all the animals, then Eve.

Also ask them, when the Bible says that the first people in the world were Adam, Eve, Cain, and Abel, who was Abel afraid of after he killed Cain?

http://www.gotquestions.org/Cain-afraid.html

And, who the heck did Cain and Abel marry if there weren't any other people around?

There's more good stuff at the Skeptics Annotated Bible.

And sure, evolution is a theory - a theory with a mountain of evidence behind it. Whereas creation is a story, with absolutely no evidence in the physical world to support it.

[Azathoth]

Even the Devil can quote scripture to serve his own purposes

Fundamentalists have spent two thousand years intellectualizing and rationalizing the plethora of contradictions and absurdities in the Bible. Pointing out a contradiction in the Bible doesn't in any way cause the average fundamentalist to question his faith. On the contrary, it often encourages him to strengthen his faith by steeling himself against the attacks of the godless atheists who are perverting the word of God to suit their own nefarious agenda.

In other words, debating theology with a fundie is useless.

[VegasWolf]

15. Exactly, when they tell me that they are a Christian I tell them

that I'm so sorry.

[Lindacooks]

Oh, I know there's no debating with them

Believe me, I had many fundies in my family, unfortunately. I just like to spread this info around - so many people don't know this.

[prodigal_green]

25. I've actually used your subject quote

on edit: this is in response to Azathoth's post "Even the Devil can quote scripture"

against fundies, asking them how do I know that they aren't doing the work of the devil and trying to trick me into ignorance? Or better yet, they themselves may be the ones tricked by their "preachers" since they are not reading the original manuscripts which were written in Hebrew (OT) and Greek (NT).

[Azathoth]

30. That's taking the mind-twist to another level

I've made similar comments to fundies from time to time, and they usually either change the subject quickly, or refuse to acknowledge that there is any possibility that the content or meaning of the Bible could have been changed over time. One or two also went into a strange dissertation on "absolute truth," claiming that they were in possession of the absolute truths of christianity, and no amount of intentional alteration or misinterpretation of the Bible could alter these truisms.

One of the great things about catch-all apologetics arguments like the Devil quoting scripture line is that they apply as much to the person making the argument as they do to the person challenging the argument.

[SharonAnn]

18. Gravity is a theory, too.

[Lindacooks]

23. LOL! You're right!

[sonicx]

26. isn't it a law?

[reprobate]

34. If it's a law, I vote to repeal it. Been gaining too much weight anyhow.

[rayofreason]

37. Law?

What was a "Law" in the 1600's and 1700's (Hooke's Law, Newton's Laws of motion) was a "Theory" in the 1800's and 1900's (Theory of evolution, Theory of relativity).

The difference is only semantic. But in a Law or Theory is far more powerful than a single fact because it explains a whole host of facts.

[BobbyinPortland]

64. If it's a law can we get a constitutional amendment against it?

I mean it seems to be the thing to do, right?

[ElsewheresDaughter]

70. law of gravity is beautiful gift for older big busted women because

when i remove my bra gravity takes over and pulls all the wrinkles out of my face ....makes me look 20 years younger :7

[tblue37]

35. Cain killed Abel,

not the other way around.

[Lindacooks]

99. Yeah, you're right

My point is still accurate - who was he afraid of if there were only three people on earth?

And who did they marry? Or did they have children with Eve??

[TrogL]

89. Dinosaur-human footprints

One of the fundie anti-evolution websites has some pictures claiming to be fossils of human footprints inside dinosaur footprints.

It's just a bunch of holes - not fossils.

I'll try to find a link.

[mutus_frutex]

90. Those "footprints" aren't footprints..

Here is a collection of links to this "issue":

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/paluxy.html

But, of course, this is not going to convince those made ignorant by religious fundamentalism... :-)

[Emillereid]

106. Yep -- remember that map comparison that showed the

current blue-state configuration along side a map from the 1860s showing the slave friendly vs free states -- they were almost the same map. When I saw them I realized America's divisions go way, way back -- probably from the beginning. In fact, de Tocquebville noted them too -- and didn't really think that the South was part of the American democratic experiment. I still say we should simply divide the real estate -- go our separate ways!

[genieroze]

9. I'm so glad I live in a blue state.

[smoogatz]

14. I live in a marginally blue state...

But the wingnut whackos are at work in Wisconsin, too. There's a fundamental, willful misunderstanding of the nature of scientific inquiry going on. Basically, we're dealing with people who think the earth is 6,000 years old, and that men and dinosaurs roamed the earth together.

[genieroze]

39. You should ask them If this was true then how did we get oil?

[dutchdoctor]

44. God put it there..

but wait, he put it all in Muslim countries... Hey, that can't be right?

[biftonnorton]

56. dutchdoctor, that is a certified HOOT!

Very good.

[dhinojosa]

79. Cleverist thing I've heard today

Good work.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

91. you made me tell this. ...Moses to God: Ok, let me get this straight......

they get all the oil and we get to cut off our WHAAAT???

[VegasWolf]

115. he put it in texas too, still not right. n/t

[Kathryn7]

80. Actually hydrocarbon compounds have been found on meteors.

[VegasWolf]

116. Oil in space, no wonder that brain dead wanted to revamp the Mars

efforts.

[Kenneth ken]

12. I'll play bomb-thrower today

:D

evolution is a fact.

evolutionary theory of the origins of life on earth is, and never will be more than THEORY. At best, it can say "this is one way life COULD have begun."

or it could have been started up by some god

Unless we invent a time machine to go back and watch life begin, we can never know for certain.

If teachers would stick to teaching the factual, provable aspects of evolution, and toss in an aside that some people theorize life could have begun via evolution, while others believe some sort of external cause created life, the whole issue could (probably, hopefully) be put to rest.

:hi:

[VegasWolf]

13. No, because it messes up the idea that the world is only

5,948 years, 58 days, 17 hours, 32 minutes, 16 seconds, 41 milliseconds old.

[Kenneth ken]

16. well heck

history messes up that theory, without even mentioning evolution. Take your argument to your western civilization class, please. :)

[rayofreason]

38. god vs. chemicals

Science does not allow for the supernatural. That is the difference between science and creationism, intelligent design, or whatever else the bible literalists want to invent.

It is all about science envy. I say give to Ceasar what is Ceasar's.

[Toots]

75. Using your argument we will never have to worry about Atomic Bombs

After all Atomic theory is only a theory and not a fact. Maybe you could sell your argument in Japan. I hear they are easy to convince.

[Kenneth ken]

111. it must have been early for you

when you read my original post. You might want to re-read it slowly and carefully.

[American Renaissance]

17. it's all too real...

My girlfriends parents practically disowned her because she got a degree in geology.

Her mother actually said she would rather see her dead than see her "follow science into eternal darkness and hellfire"

Not that the prospect of for all practical purposes having no inlaws really bothers me that much... it sure doesn't seem to bother her.

How her and her brother turned out so normal and well adjusted being raised by Mr. and Mrs. Falwell, I will never know.

[LibertyorDeath]

32. The Retarded are at the Gates

"Her mother actually said she would rather see her dead than see her "follow science into eternal darkness and hellfire"

[ElsewheresDaughter]

72. LMAO! "the retarded are at the gates"....

[VegasWolf]

83. If you want a decent intellectual conservation you'll have to go to hell.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

103. Wow. You're a lucky man. Marry that girl. NOW. (nt)

[WindRavenX]

22. here's what needs to be hammered into these ignorant ass*holes brains:

EVOLUTION IS NOT ORIGIN SPECIFIC.
God and Evolution are NOT MUTALLY EXCLUSIVE.
GAAAAAHHH!!!!
::head explodes:

[VegasWolf]

24. but evolution and the bible are. n/t

[WindRavenX]

27. not necessarily

It is entirely possible (even though it is something I would NEVER EVER do) to teach evolution and still be able to say it's in line with the Bible.
I am merely pointing out that this is a misconception about evolution- I don't think we should do it, but it's something I throw back into anti-evolution asshats.

[VegasWolf]

28. I don't think it would ever fit with either account of creation in the

bible. If they could sync it up, religious scholars would
be all over that instead of fighting evolution so hard.
I remember in catholic school being taught that 7 days
didn't mean 7 days. But no matter how long an epoch you make
a day, the sequences all fall apart.

[WindRavenX]

29. true

However, MOST people that I know that are anti-evolution are so because they believe evolution is, as I said, "origin specific" to the idea of God- most don't have problems with the idea of the time of the 7 days or Earth being billions of years old- it's all on the idea that evolution does not allow the idea of a Deity. That's why I want to hammer that evolution is not origin specific and allows the idea of the Watchmaker God- God put things in motion, meaning evolution is, really, a divine occurance.
Of course I think that's all bullshit. But I believe it's possible to teach evolution to these boobs without it appearing "anti-God" or whatnot.

[billyoc]

71. I went to Catholic school for 10 years,

grades 1-10. Those nuns never seemed to have a problem with evolution, because that's where I learned about it. I never could figure out the fundie obsession with the very first and very last pages of a big-ass book like the bible. :)

[VegasWolf]

84. Yes, but you probably didn't go in the late 50's, they had their panties

all in a knot back then about evolution.

[EST]

42. Please forgive me for intruding, but-

the approach of teaching that "creationism " and evolution are not mutually exclusive has been tried for over a hundred years and it just doesn't work-at least for any extended term or large group of people. Any time you allow any slack at all for the folks who want to believe in the theory of god, you lose ground. They will NOT show the respect due you for your willingness to "live and let live'" but will seize upon your concession as a weakness, grab the bit of allowance you've given them as their right and gleefully keep pounding away, arguing for the next concession. I know all too well-been there.

The theory of god is a theory only-unsupported by facts and simply one of many competing theories. The formula of evolution is provable, if, as yet, incomplete. One must never, ever allow the introduction of such theories as intelligent design or creationism into any curriculum, as the lazy of brain will always seize upon the comic book over the algebra text because it is so much easier and less demanding. Apparently there is some mechanism in the human brain that is totally willing to throw over all evidence to the contrary and accept the magic or mysterious supernatural solution for everything and it is our duty to ourselves and our fellow man to stamp out this false doctrine wherever we find it! Tell the truth-always. Never accept unsupported god or allah or other such ridiculous theories as a replacement for thought and careful analysis.

We must teach (at least) interim definitions of reality and not allow the flat earthers to impose another thousand year dark age on the intellectual world as has happened before. Imagine, for a moment, where we could be as a society if the previous time out on truth had been avoided!! The alternative is almost too awful to contemplate, although perhaps man should be wiped clear from this earth to allow the next intelligent beings to evolve. Sad.

[Solly Mack]

31. then they need to get out of teaching

for they are not educators and never will be

[Flapjacks]

33. Evolution in theory

Evolution is a theory - nothing more.
Copernicus and Galileo proved that the earth is not the center of the universe - even though the Bible says it is - religion survived and adapted.
If your concept of God is so fragile that it cannot accept the possibility that all life on the planet evolved from a lower life form, then you had no faith to begin with.

[Rose Siding]

73. Just so Flapjacks!

I'll never understand all the limits imposed on God by some sects. The more mysteries revealed by science, the greater my awe at His complexity.

Welcome to DU :hi:

[KittyWampus]

74. Intelligent Design Is ALSO Just A Theory. And It Has Fewer Holes Than

Darwin's theory that blind chance coupled with natural selection are responsible for the diversity and continuum of life on Earth.

Remember, ID does NOT necessarily include the notion of a "Creator". That idea is heaped on by Fundies trying to push THEIR agenda.

So I am left asking, "why not teach both theories and highlight the flaws in both?"

[VegasWolf]

85. Intelligent Design has one huge gaping hole, it requires a god. n/t

[LibertyorDeath]

92. LOL

:)

[stanwyck]

107. Intelligent design is not science

and "just a theory" in science means years of research and proven results. Theory in scientific terms has a basis of quantified effects. Intelligent design is religion. There is nothing there that is provable. It's theory without basis of fact. Einstein's theory of relativity enabled scientists to explore space. This is scientific theory. It works.
Why teach intelligent design? Because it doesn't belong in science class. It belongs in religion class. If you add intelligent design to science class, you'll need to add all the other religious beliefs to science class. And science class is no longer science. And we're living in a Taliban-like religious society.

[reprobate]

36. It's fascinating to watch a culture devolve, isn't it?

Superstition is overwhelming science.

For almost half of the people to truly think that the universe was "created" by some sky fairy just means to me that our education system has ALREADY FAILED.

The population is no longer interested in facts, just feel good rhetoric. I think that's the reason that a village idiot can become president. (See, your mother was right, in America anyone can grow up to be president).

It's also the reason that they accept the State Run Media without a whimper, preferring lies to the unacceptable truth.

But when you look at it in the right way it's actually quite interesting. After all, not many in the history of the world have had the opportunity to see an entire civilization self destruct.

See how special we are?

[Occulus]

40. there's a "new" theory that ties the two together

The Many Worlds Interpretation of quantum mechanics apparently presumes a "prime mover" yet allows for all conceivable possibilities. It's truly an amazing ball of wax.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qm-manyworlds/

"The fundamental idea of the MWI, going back to Everett 1957, is that there are myriads of worlds in the Universe in addition to the world we are aware of. In particular, every time a quantum experiment with different outcomes with non-zero probability is performed, all outcomes are obtained, each in a different world, even if we are aware only of the world with the outcome we have seen. In fact, quantum experiments take place everywhere and very often, not just in physics laboratories: even the irregular blinking of an old fluorescent bulb is a quantum experiment."

Interesting.

[VegasWolf]

43. God that was an awful theory. I read it about 10 years ago. The basic

idea is that are an infinite number of worlds therefore
each and every outcome is guaranteed to occur. To me,
this is an utter capitulation and in essence no better
than a belief in god that makes all things possible.

[Briar]

48. Weird theory

Martin Rees (British Astronomer Royal) just did a Channel 4 series in which he essentially ended up endorsing intelligent design. He and his contributors started from the fact that we exist and the assumptions that intelligent life can only look and think like us and that it is good that we exist. Since our existance is contingent on a special and unique chain of circumstances, these circumstances must have been intended in order to bring about our existance.

I don't think much of theories that start with a conclusion and tailor their reasoning and survey of the evidence to support it.

[Kablooie]

51. Actually that theory is coming back...

or a similar one. Recent string theory suggests that there could be an infinite amount of universes. We are just in one of them.

[Condor]

57. It's all about measurement

If I'm not mistaken, hardly any scientist believes there are infinitely many worlds in which we live, but to explain what happens in quantum mechanics during a measurement is a mental quagmire, where only mathematics can help a bit. The many worlds idea is then an interpretation of some of the mathematics that may answer what happens during a measurement. It needs some work, but it definitely shows promise in some areas.

[aikido15]

45. Where is Jim Jones when we need him.

Time for the Koolaid induced rapture.

[Condor]

50. I've had the same feeling

But I'm afraid it will be possible to draw some scary parallels between American culture self destructing and mankind abusing planet earth. And that's not something I'll be interested in observing.

[LibertyorDeath]

93. There's hope for America still

You & others like you are that hope.

It's a heavy burden I know but the rest of the World is watching America
devolve & we're pinning our hopes on you!!

America has been systematically dumbed down for decades & now it's paying off for those concerned with power & control they have created
10's of million's of people bereft of critical judgment skills & the ability to see bullshit when it's staring them in the face.

This legion of lemmings will follow the koolaid right over the cliff.
The American MSM is completely complicit in this with it's fluff news coverage and it's assumption that its viewers have the attention span of
retarded Gerbils. This seems to be true unfortunately for many of the red states where as you say "Superstition is overwhelming science"

I'm only half joking when I say

The retarded are at the gates.

[dutchdoctor]

46. pretty soon, the U.S. will be taking a back seat in the World

Religious fundamentalism in the U.S. will lead to less funding for stem cell research, DNA and gene therapy research (directly related to evolutionary biology) and many other fields of science..
This will have dramatic effects on the U.S. being the global leader in scientific progress and thus eventually in economic power.
The rest of the world will be developing new cutting edge technologies while the U.S. slides back into the Middle ages.
Good luck to you guys!

[aikido15]

47. We already have...

taken a back seat, wishing us luck a little too late, I'm afraid.

[tom_paine]

49. One would expect such trends in a Tyrannized Nation like Amerika

(we're just at the mid-beginnings folks, and people iwll look back with envy at even today's relative freedom)

Medevalism is ramping up, just as it has in other nations that have gone before us in the transition.

A Free-Market Soviet State (a BushPutinist State, if you will) will be backwards scientifically, as Amerika is rapidly becoming.

Read the story of Stalin and Lamarckism (Google it). It is a wonderfully instructive tale and help you to understand at least one phase of Amerikan transformation over the next decade.

[rayofreason]

67. scientifically backward

If you are going to talk about science, it is important to get your facts straight.

Lysenko's nonsense assertions that acquired traits could be inherited were the official dogma in Stalin's Russia because Stalin thought that Lysenko's ideas were more compatible with Marxism than Mendell's genetics. Those who opposed Lysenko's "scientific theories" were arrested and sent to the gulag, many never to return. Nothing like this has ever existed in the west in science, though it has in religion when heretics (including scientists) were burned at the stake. And so to equate bible literalists' lame and increasingly futile attempts to discredit evolution, the fundametal cornerstone of biology that is recognized as such by the scientific community, with the direct imposition of pseudoscience by the state at the point of a gun is the kind of sloppy thinking that scientific inquiry is always trying to discredit.

While I am heartened to see this thread and that so many who are not willing to see the bible literalists sneak religious ideas into the science curriculum, we must remember that things used to be far worse. It used to that evolution was NEVER taught in schools. The bible literalists continue to lose and are forced into more and more desperate rear-guard actions.

This is not to say that pseudo-scientific ideas are not on the rise. They certainly are, but the most rapidly spreading nonsense is entirely secular in nature, especially within the "New Age" community. Homeopathy is one example. Astrology, channeling, touch therapy (you are not touched - only your "aura" is), cold fusion, - all these ideas have no basis in science or have been discredited through scientific investigation, yet millions believe. Often times pseudo-science dresses in the language of science, because of the recognized power of science. But science is not about big words. It is a unique way of reasoning about the world that places evidence and experiment at the cornerstone, and uses quantitative reasoning through mathematics as the means of determining the consequences of assumptions and arguments. There is no room for the supernatural in science, though many scientists are deists (like Einstein).

[tom_paine]

76. I disagree with your assessment of "sloppy thinking"

And I do appreciate you correcting Lamarckism to Lysenkoism, which is the coreect term, though Lysenko and Lamarck were within the same family of thinking, so to speak.

And you are correct that, taken literally, to equate Lysenkoism with Bushevikism, is not a perfect analogy...far from it.

However, they are in the same family of thinking, a forcing of pseudo-scientific ideas onto State Institutions, and now the the Busheviks have effectively ended the Old American Republic, it will increase.

I assume you are familiar with the Imperial Roman model of transition from a Republic to Imperial Tyranny, and how the Caesers purposefully kept the Central Roman Myth (that they have thrown off the Tarquin Kings and were forever free, never to bow again to a King) alive for political purposes and to transform Rome too quickly might endanger Caeser's own amibitions?

Well the Roman Myth was kept alive for a generation or two, until Tiberius, Calighula, Caludius and Nero rendered it full and finally obsolete, almost a century after it actually BECAME obsoltet in practice.

And yes, I recognize that the situations are not 100% identical, lest you accuse me of "sloppy thiking", again, but they are parallel events nonetheless, if not identical.

But they are the same family and schools of thought. And if you haven't noticed rising State Support for what ARE NOT "desperate rear-guard actions" but "vanguard actions" of a revitalized and empowered Bushevik/Medevalist movement that control levers of power and uses them in very Soviet ways.

IMHO, there is the only reason we have not experienced something closer to the Stalinist Way.

Because for a 225 year old Republic with great and strong tradiions and beliefs, the Full Stalinist Totalitarianism does not come right awy. Not only do the Old Republic's structures have to be dismantled in such a way as not "wake up" the citizenry and to keep them inured with their Cherished Myths that really no longer exist, but the very people alive today can only be budged so far, because we who grew up in Free America remember it, and there is only so far as they will go.

yes, even Freepers and other Hardcore Totalitarian Bootlcikers love to fantasize ferquently about the day when they will be able to, without consequence, randomly murder prominent and other liberals (go to FreeRepublic.com and you won't have to remian there long to verify I am speaking the truth), but I strongly suspect that most of them wouldn't do it even when presented with the 1940s Missippi Law Enforcement (and all of us as the Uppity Negroes).

But their children's children probably will, having no memory of Free America and Imperial Amerika's Institutional Memory of History being wiped away deliberately.

Even then, whatever actions they take will likely be Kinderf and Gentler than the Nazis & Soviets.

Different countries, different customs.

I went through this whole dissertation to explaint o you, if you haven't noticed yet, that things are not what they seem and that we are currently in transition from Free Nation to Orwellian Totalitarianism, or as I like to call this inacrnation, BushPutinism, after it's primary architects.

New Ageism, while disturbing individually, is not about to receive the coverty and perhaps overt support of The BushPutinist State to make New Age-ism the educational norm.

But it certainly appears that we are at the dawn of an age where the BushPutinist State, still straining mightily to maintain the illusion of the Old USA's forms, will be throwing it's "free-market" support behind (likely through the usual front groups and intermediaries) this latest incarnation of Medevalism.

And if you think this is a "desperate rearguard action", then I submit you have not been watching very closely.

It is a Vanguard Action heralding the New Amerika.

On that we will have to agree to diasgree and please don't insult me again. Hopefully you can disagree without resorting to that.

[rayofreason]

94. lysenko

Sorry, no insult meant (just polemics that are best kept under control), and I do value your willingness to engage in principled discourse. But the fact remains that there is no example in the scientific community other than the Soviet Union of a phenomena like Lysenkoism. Even in Nazi Germany, where Einstein's relativity was called "Jewish physics", E=mc^2 was recognized as the way the universe works - and the Nazis tried to develop the atomic bomb.

With regard to the transition from the Republic to Empire in Rome, I agree with much of what you said. That is why Augustus was called "Princeps", and the fiction of the Republic was maintained. However, the Republic had been in large part fiction as well as disfunctional since the murder of Tiberius Gracchus and the proscriptions of Sulla. I also agree with you that the story of the fall of the Republic is an important one with lessons for our time.

However, I respectfully disagree that science education is getting worse rather than better. Certainly there are backwards steps (I can think of many), and organized groups who are opposed open inquiry (google Mathematically Correct), but those folks are on the defensive, not the offensive. The scientific community in the US is thriving, and more and more kids are getting science education that is based on evidence and experimentation. This does not mean that we should not remain vigilent, but we should also appreciate the gains that have been made.

[tom_paine]

100. I don't know that I agree that the scientific community in Amerika is

thriving.

And I am speaking as a former (and hope to one day work in the lab again) molecular biologist.

Some points:

1) The "American" Scientific Community is comprised of roughly 30-50% foreigners...by that I mean Foreign Nationals lest you think me racist

2) The Busheviks have been defunding science, promoting politcally motivated junk science (and the cutting off of evolution), and doing their usual show of nonviolent force to scientists that dare disagree with the Imperial Family (Google Watson and Climate Chaneg, to name one of many)

3) The Busheviks, what funding they give to science, is now being restructured from programs like ATP (cancelled) which encouraged scientific startups and cutting-edge research, to tax break to moribund Big Pharma so they can create the next Boner Pill or Soma to feed the kiddies to shut 'em up.

4) In general, Bushevik Policies are designed to strangle Public Education, and not the Imperials themselves but their close minions, such as Griver Norquist, are quite open in their desire to return education to being a province of the Wealthy.

As we know, human affairs are comprised of many sub-trends, some rising some falling, often at the same time.

You point to a trend in scientific education about the curriculum itself which may be true, but the overall trends, which will one day drown the other trends and drag them in it's wake, is in the other direction.

The gains have been made, but they are in terrible danger of being lost and I think much of it depends in the end on how much "science" needs to be preserved to maintain enough people to run our technical society.

Of course, the Imperial Family may not have control over the Medeval Reptile Brain powers they have unleashed, like Mickey Mouse and the Dancing Brooms in Fantasia.

I do agree about Lysenkoism having no 100% modern equal. But I believe Hitler did comission much Nazi Science carried out by Menegel and others on the topic of race.

Again, the Nazis preserved only as much science as they needed to maintain their war machine.

As to the Romans, I agree with your assessment. And I believe I mentioned that I knew it was far from a 100% match, but relative to the times each took place in, the similarity was their.

I don't know if Gracchus actually SAID what is attributed to him in Spartacus, but it's a lovely line and quite applicable to today, if he did indeed say it:

Senators, you rail against Republican (Democratic) corruption. Well, I can take Republican (Democratic) Corruption, as long as it comes with a dose of Republican (Democratic) FREEDOM. But what I won't take is the Dictatorship of Crassus (Bunnypants* Bush) and no freedom at all!"

If Gracchus didn't say that, he should have.

[rayofreason]

108. science and Gracchus

The Gracchus in the movie Spartacus is not the Gracchus to whom I refered. Tiberius Sempronius Gracchus predates Spartacus by about 40 years. He was a Roman noble who became the leader of the "Populares" (the populist political faction that would be Ceasar's political home as well). He was a big proponent of land reform, which outraged the oligarchs. Even though he was a Tribune, and thus personally sacrosanct, he was publically murdered by a mob of Senators. His brother, Gaius, who picked up the mantle of reform met the same fate. The result was a hardening of Roman politics against all reform. Such attitudes led directly to the Social War (89-87 BCE), in which Italian cities demanded fuller participation in politics, against the wishes of the oligarchs. The chaos oppened the door to political violence in Rome as first Cinna, then Sulla took control of the city and murdered political opponents. Sulla was the model for Ceasar - a general with toops loyal to him, not the state, who then marches on Rome. Ceasar push through a host of reforms, but we know how he exited the stage. The process of the Roman revolution ended with Augustus and the Principate, which solved the problem of continuous civil war.

The whole story is an excellent example of the fact that if avenues of peaceful change are closed off, change will come by other means.

Sorry for the long history note, but I thought you might be interested.

Now for science (I am a physicist). While most of my colleagues are unhappy with the administration, none of them feel that there is any threat of Lysenkoism. What they worry about is level of funding and priorities. Mars exploration is popular among scientists working in the field, but not so popular among those whose funding may be cut. I personally am in favor of a vigorous Mars exploration (not my area), along with a mission to Europa that will dig through the ice and explore the Europan ocean. These missions have the best chance of finding evidence of life beyond Earth. It would be the greatest discovery of all time. And what a shock to the bible literalists that would be!

[tom_paine]

113. Thank you for the conversation.

The best extended one I've had on DU in quite some time.

And thanks for the history lesson. My mistake. The Gracchi were a prominent Roman Family for quite some time, and more than a few were prominent.

I really do need to study more of the history of the Roman Republic. My interest lies in Imperial Roman History primarily.

And to be quite honest, I am of the mind that if we were going to become a spacefaring species, we would have already been on our way. In my opinion, we are quite the opposite, and the "refighting of WWII" with US as the Germans doesn't bode well for Long-Term Human prospects.

But anyway, before I spin off on another tangent, thanks again for the converstaion.

And welcome to DU!

:toast:

[rayofreason]

114. Thanks as well

Thanks to you as well. Good luck in your future lab position.

[Kablooie]

52. Mathematics isn't taught in the bible ...

so many fervent Christians are now saying that it's not true. Mathematics is a device the devil has created to lure us off the true path.

[bklyncowgirl]

54. How do our kids rate on science compared with other industrialized nations

I understand it's pretty damn low.

Could there just maybe be a connection?

[rodeodance]

55. yes, there probably is a connection. Good thought Kool-aid is cheap

[American Tragedy]

121. Not as bad as has been reputed.

Last time I looked at international results, they were a bit higher than the median of industrialized nations. Could be better, but not as horrific as you might have believed. Singapore is at the top, I believe.

[arwalden]

61. Faith-Based Stupidity Caused The DARK AGES... Didn't It?

Faith-based rejection of science and medicine... that's pretty much the boat we're in right now, isn't it?

[leesa]

62. So what's wrong with these frickin' cowards? Deny evolution??

[ElsewheresDaughter]

63. i just finished reading this article i am so grateful my kids go to....

school in an intelligent blue state!!!!!...

"in the US 53% believe in evolution"as where in the rest of the industralized world 80% to 97% do... bush claims he wants to "leave no child behind"...fuck me twice!! (excuse the language, but :ggr: )i believe he really wants to "leave ALL US children behind"!!!...jays'us i got so sick when i read this article and am more frightened than i thought possible of this insane man and his ilk...we are majorly fucked!

[BobbyinPortland]

68. God caused evolution,

I was talking to a wonderful person a few weeks ago having this debate about evolution. I told her that my "theory" is that God caused evolution. She looked at me, and this girl is pretty hard core Christian and said, "yes, my God is big enough to have done exactly that". Why is that so hard for these "fundies" and Bible thumpers to understand it could be from God. Is it really the "monkey" thing? It can't be as simple as that, can it? Are people so afraid that we came from a monkey that they'll do anything and everything to deny it?

I just can't believe how literal some people want to be. What would they do if there wasn't a Bible? How would they function? I bet they couldn't.

[jsw_81]

118. "God caused evolution"

Lots of liberal theists use this line in an attempt to placate the fundies and reconcile their own faith with evolution, but frankly it strikes me as absurd. The sad fact of the matter is that evolution is an incredibly brutal, violent process that involves an astonishing amount of waste, suffering, extinction and death. I just don't understand how anyone could believe that there is some sort of loving deity controlling this mess.

I think that taking god(s) and the "supernatural" out of the picture and accepting that life/evolution is a purely natural process is by far the better way of looking at the situation. Sadly, most humans simply can't let go of their various religious beliefs, and as a result we'll almost certainly be dealing with this monster we call creationism for decades, perhaps even centuries to come.

[eridani]

122. What about "God is the author of natural law"

which would of course include evolution. Ask them why they think God isn't bright enough to get the operating system of the universe right the first time.

[Stockholm]

77. Yeah evolution is pretty much over rated ...

LOL!

Why this is even an issue is rather difficult for a non-US person to grasp.

Isn´t there a way to get the bible amended and stick evolution in there in the next issue?

[jsw_81]

81. Welcome to the new dark age

Who needs science when we have the Bible? </ignorant red-state freeper>

[VegasWolf]

86. Actually, Evolution created God. As our cranial capacity increased

and the amount of cerebral folding increased dramatically resulting
in a larger cerebral surface area, then we became aware of
the imminence of our own demise and therefore created god to
overcome this problem.

[melv]

96. I am a Science Teacher in Training

and I will teach the theory of Evolution. I will also respect the views of the students in my class.

This shouldn't be that hot of a topic. Evolution is simply change, over time.

[VegasWolf]

117. Good luck, I have the highest respect for teachers. I was extremely

fortunate to have many good ones.

[jsw_81]

97. Indeed

Religion itself seems to be a product of evolution. Shh...don't tell the fundies!

[Emillereid]

105. Are Americans becoming too stupid to live with?

This is such a disservice to the students who one day might actually have to live in the real world, pass tests, go to college, etc. Then again they probably will go to special fundie 'colleges' (if you can call them that) where they never have to come upon an idea or concept that might disturb their delusional thinking.

We are definitely fast becoming a backwater country.

[atommom]

112. Scary times indeed. It's maddening to hear statistics like the ones

in this article. In other industrialized nations, there is a much greater acceptance of evolution. Is it any wonder that they're outstripping us academically, when parents insist on keeping their children blissfully ignorant? I'm not speaking only about creationism, but about banning books and pressuring schools to avoid controversial topics. Many of those kids will never learn critical thinking skills.

[American Tragedy]

119. Even the Pope has said that evolution is for real

[eridani]

123. Catholics have never had a problem with evolution

I was taught it was a part of God-authored natural law.

[Flammable Materials]

124. Existo was right ...

"Philosophy students are fed fundamentalist pap
While science departments excrete that creationist crap
And liberals can't find their testicles without a map"