Mother jailed over son's unpaid fees

[Rose Siding]

ANGLETON, Texas - A Houston-area mother who spent time in detention with a daughter over tardiness has landed in jail over one of her son's unpaid fines.
...
The arrest warrant for Manis, who has four children and two stepchildren, was issued after she failed to make a monthly payment on fees and fines levied against one of her sons when he was a juvenile.

Because Manis' son, now 19, does not have a steady job, she had agreed to send the court $50 a month to pay off about $10,000 in fines, fees and court costs he owes from three different convictions of offenses as a juvenile. Manis said she was unable to make last month's payment.
...
The couple earlier spent an hour in school detention with their 13-year-old daughter, who was late for class six times when the family's van wouldn't start.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/020105dntexmomjailed.658e0966.html

[patdem]

1. We'll prove being poor is a punishable felony!

That is the last line in a poem I wrote during newt's time when he proposed the 'contract on America' and it is truly comming true today. Being poor is going to include a lot more people and the only way to keep them down is to keep them down! :grr:

[Sugarbleus]

6. *shudder*

This is getting scarier and scarier by the day...

When I took in my teenage grandson to raise, I was committed to do better with him than I did with his mother. Attend his school functions, be wiser with discipline, spend more of my time on him, encourage him to want better for himself, "teach" him tolerance and the proper way to view others, and ways of handling his anger in that he has to learn to get along with all sorts of people now as the world will be full of disagreeable people as he goes forward into the work force.

We did homework together..I made it fun and interesting. Unfortunately, my grandson came to me with 'issues'. His mother was a drug abuser w/ a long criminal history. He had abandonment issues and his anger problems were deep seated. So, he had some problems. Nevertheless, I dealth with him and went with him to his teachers to discuss "how I can better work with them and my student". They were "chilly" to me to say the least.(My instincts told me they only wanted the best and the brightest little clones so their school would look good)

Eventually, my g.son ended up in 'Alternative' school. From that time forward I got nothing but hell from the school district. No matter how hard I worked or how reasonable I was with them, they treated ME like shit. Like I was the one who created the problems. Like I WAS the one who was causing THEM problems. ?????????????????????

I continued to admonish my g.son to do better--though I started to listen to him more than before, as it turned out he wasn't as bad as I they had made him out to be. It turned out one of his teachers was a druggie. I guess the alternative school couldn't afford to hire anyone better??? The other school had this neocon old military dude treating the boys (boys only school) like they were in boot camp. I didn't like it. The boys were unsupervised on the school grounds and another kid with emotional problems started shoving my g.son. Eventually my g.son asked the teacher to do something about it and they told him to avoid the kid. Well, one day was too much so my g.son socked the kid in the shoulder. The school called the POLICE! and charged him with battery!! We had to go to juvenile hall were I made THEE biggest stink you'd ever want to see. I told the district superintendent to NEVER EVER do that again, to call me first and to remove my child from that school immediately or I would sue.

They moved him but our relationship with the district never got better. The district school sup as it turns out needs to retire; he is quite a short tempered fellow himself. Paranoid and afraid to lose his job I guess. My g.son has much improved, but Mr. Superintendant has egg on his face. I remember one day his calling to YELL at me that I wasn't doing anything about my g.son's behavior...???? What the hell does he know about what I do? I told a social worker who went down there and gave him whatfor.

In short, g.son is doing much better but I have NOTHING BUT CONTEMPT for public education as it presently exists today. As I told this superintendant once; 'Why are you folks not working with me on this? I got my g.son as is. I'm doing my very best to help him in every way. Their policies are NOT helping me to help him. They had no answer. We are poor, BTW.

[Mizmoon]

10. It depends on your district

and your finances. People make their assumptions. You keep on doing the right thing by that child.

You're a good grandma.

[Sugarbleus]

12. Awwww, thank you so much

That warms my heart. I so appreciate your kind words. :hug:

[Kimber Scott]

2. I thought we didn't have debtor's prison in this country? Here's what gets

my goat, though: On the one hand the courts take away all parental power to monitor and discipline their children and on the other, they make them more and more responsible for what they do.

[zanana]

4. They're against a woman's right to choose...

Yet, when the woman is pregnant, she can be prosecuted for smoking a cigarette.

[yinkaafrica]

11. Good connection you have made there

They just can't seem to punish us enough

[ret5hd]

3. hey let's make sure the mom loses her job...

that'll teach them kids.

[ugarte]

5. If jail doesn't work, there's always torture

nt

[jus_the_facts]

8. being caged like an animal....IS torture....

....only those who've never been through the experience...can say otherwise. :(

[Occulus]

7. this is very bad indeed

While I agree with some parental responsibility and punishment for egregiously negligent behavior on their parts- when their children are minors- punishing the parents when the "child" is in fact over eighteen is simply beyond the pale, and a bad precedent for all of us. Granted, the woman in question agreed to pay those fines, but legally, it just isn't her responsibility to do so.

I agreed to help my partner pay his child support for a while when he was between jobs. If I had suddenly not been able to, would that have made me a deadbeat dad?

This is nuts. Our nation is going (has already gone?) collectively insane...

[slackmaster]

9. I thought we did away with debtors' prisons

How is someone supposed to pay off a debt while incarcerated?

:shrug:

The couple earlier spent an hour in school detention with their 13-year-old daughter, who was late for class six times when the family's van wouldn't start.

An hour she could have used getting the van fixed, or working to earn money to pay for getting the van fixed.

:argh:

[msanthrope]

13. She deserves jail.

10,000 in fines and fees? Three juvy arrests?

I've been around juvenile justice long enough to know that that amount means there were restitution payments involved to victims.

I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that the situation was more like this:

Ne'er do well son gets in trouble, again, and a plea is reached whereby victim A gets x amount, and loser son gets to go home, but as a condition of his probation, has to pay up. Momma guarantees the payments--swearing in court to pay up. Momma doesn't pay. An irate court decides that enough is enough.


Think about this hypo--jerk teenage kid down the street, who has been arrested before, eggs your car. You agree to probation for him, and part of the deal is you get $500 to fix your car (eggs do damage to paint). Parents guarantee the payments, and snotnose kid gets out of jail.

One month later, where's your payment? Should the court pay you and then try to collect from snotnose's parents like a creditor? Or should the court put in jail the person who promised to make good?

[saigon68]

14. THE TAXPAYER IS BEING sodomized

Who pays for the jail--- I do ---- that is the problem with Judges etc. They want to lock everyone up and we Pay in the Form of Taxes.

How about a good public Horse whipping of the little creep who did the crime?

[rocktivity]

33. Yeah, I don't see how it helps to run her bill up higher

and the taxpayers are paying for her jail time. That doesn't help settle the debt. The kid is no longer a minor--it's time for him to be responsible. If he has no job, let him do $10K worth of community service.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Straight Shooter]

15. I see your point, but anyone over 14 should take responsibility

By 14, you're old enough to recognize that actions have consequences, both good and bad. Lousy parents can rear great children, and vice versa. Putting the onus on the parents for restitution is not the way to teach responsibility for one's actions. Parents sometimes have a tendency to protect children when perhaps it isn't the wisest course. Look at George W. Bush, he is a classic case of parents who always step in and clean up their kid's mess. Now he never takes responsibility for what he says or does.

I don't want to send young adults to jail; I'd rather that money be spent in some sort of rehabilitative probation, community service being foremost. Vandalism is serious. Maybe the whole family would be well-served with counseling rather than funds spent on imprisoning them.

[msanthrope]

16. Oh, I agree with you about holding the kid

responsible. It's too bad that his mother agreed to guarantee the payments. That's the only reason she's being held responsible. I mean, you have to hold people accountable when they swear in court for restitution payments, otherwise, it becomes meaningless.

Courts have limited mechanisms to compel behavior. Jail is one of the few options.

[Occulus]

48. She shouldn't be ALLOWED to accept his punishment

He should have to face it himself. To allow someone to take someone else's punishment is to allow persons with means to 'get others off' their punishment.

This is wrong on its face.

[progressivebydesign]

26. The mother took it on herself.. agreed to a deal, and did not uphold it.NT

[Megahurtz]

18. So What?

It's not the grandmothers fault. And you don't even know if the scenario was really like you describe, or not.

There should be no debtors prison for ANYONE, and jailing the poor is just another fascist practice.

[Old Mouse]

20. Absolutely correct

But we are in a time where people are arguing for greater police powers without considering the consequences.

[msanthrope]

28. This isn't a 'greater police power'. Courts have been able

to do this since time immemorial. You make a promise to a court of law, you had better keep it, or hope that you get a lenient judge who will excuse you swearing falsely in front of them.

That does not happen very often.

The grandmother/mother had no obligation to take this debt on--she did so, voluntarily. Now, she is being held to the same standards you or I would be held to: pay up, or go to jail for the contempt you have shown this court.

[Old Mouse]

37. I do not talk of legal powers

but of public opinion. It is always the next generation of relaxed codes we have to worry about.

But in response, she did not commit a crime. It is fundamentally wrong to allow a transfer of penal sentence. All laws should be examined in terms of potential and ease of misuse. The fact it is legal is no defense, the similar legal arguments that led to American slavery were just as logistically sound, and as morally wrong.

[Tsiyu]

40. Grrrrrrrr The Law speaketh

But I recall reading somewhere that law was made for human and not the other way around.

Contempt is just a word. The word does mean something. It is contempt to jail a mother of many - forcing children to suffer - for the pittance she owes, when our Fucking President has squandered billions.

There IS discretion allowed in American jurisprudence. It was not chosen in this instance because the other human beings involved are cold-hearted assholes who need to become Taliban.

Edit: fatfinger disease

[barb162]

21. we don't know if they are poor or if they are spending their money

on big screen TVs. There are people out there who can have tattoos, their nails and hair done, etc., but they can't afford their monthly rent bills. We really don't know the story on this family and their finances.

[msanthrope]

24. It's not a question of "fault."

I agree that the underlying crime is not anybody's fault but the kid.

Problem is, that if you stand up in court and say "I will pay so kid can stay out of jail," you have made yourself legally responsible for the debt. The grandmother stood up in court and promised to pay on the kid's behalf. She's liable for the debt, and for the contempt shown to the court.

And I've been around juvy enough to know that you don't accrue 10k in fines and levies without doing some serious, repeat crime.

[barb162]

22. It sounds like this kid is a total trouble-making punk and who raised

the punk? Why is the punk a punk again? P-A-R-E-N-T-S., and if he was arrested three times he probably committed many more crimes before he was ever caught.

[sandnsea]

38. No

Because as long as the kid knows the court is going to put more pressure on mama than the kid, it's just another game for the kid to play. Mama ends up hurt which hurts the chances for the rest of the kids. Maybe the van would have gotten fixed and the other child wouldn't have been late to class if mama didn't have to pay that $50 monthly fee. The justice system needs to draw hard lines with teen-agers. If mama is responsible, she's 100% responsible and the court and probation officers need to butt out. If the kid is responsible, then the court and probation officers need to ride that kids ass and make sure he is working every spare minute and that community service provides money to pay the restitution. That was the point of community service in the first place, to pay back for the damage done.

[Orsino]

17. If they had to execute the son...

...would they send the mother the bill for the bullet?

[VegasWolf]

19. Democracy! It works well for the wealthy. n/t

[barb162]

23. here's from the Houston Chronicle

Parents serve detention with 6-times-tardy child



HOUSTON CHRONICLE

"PEARLAND, Texas - The family that was overdue together got to stay after school together.

Steven and Susan Manis said their 13-year-old daughter, Jessica Dunkley, was being punished unjustly for being late to school six times in October and November when the family's van wouldn't start.

snip
Steven Manis said he had to stay a few minutes longer because his
School policy is for a student who is tardy more than twice to spend an hour in detention, said school district spokeswoman L. Renea Ivy.
snip


Susan Manis said the tardies came on mornings when the school bus had already passed before she found out her van wouldn't start. An electrical problem with the vehicle has been fixed, she said. "


(Comment:Why is she late for classes SIX times. WHat's wrong with the bus? If the van doesn't start, let's say 3 times in a row, wouldn't you put the kid on the bus?)

[progressivebydesign]

27. Same people??? They need parenting class. The BUS is a good idea n/t

[barb162]

30. Yeah, I'm thinking if my car didn't start yesterday, the kid would take

the bus the next day or walk to school. What's the real problem here? Plus the older kid with the multiple criminal problems....

Reading the articles, it sounds like they're trying to play into a persecution complex. Gimme a break. Let the kid take the damned bus and pay off the other kid's bills too.

[rocktivity]

32. The van wouldn't start after "the school bus had already passed?"

Well, why didn't the parents make it their business to see that the kid was always ON the bus--especially if they KNEW that the van was unreliable?

:shrug:
rocknation

[barb162]

36. yep, and just think they have 6 kids they're training this way

[Tsiyu]

42. Since they aren't here to defend themselves

we can only speculate.

Lots of judgement in this post and others. Humiliating these kids with all of this public thrashing is perhaps not the best idea.

Good people can also be chronically tardy people.

Good people can raise children who get involved with drugs and crime and violence.

Good people can be pretty broke sometimes.

And if you've ever raised six kids, you know it takes a lot of groceries and gas and dental bills, etc. Sometimes there isn't any extra for car repairs.

Someone else once said that some DUers really dislike the poor. Sily, since the struggles of the poor brought this party its greatest moments.

But freaking mercy is a good thing, because NOBODY knows when they will have to walk a mile in someone else's shoes.

[progressivebydesign]

25. Okay.. she's one shitty parent!

Did any of her kids turn out to be positive contributors to society. Sheesh.. should I feel sorry for her?

[msanthrope]

29. No, you shouldn't--this is the type of parent

who tells the tardy one "you have been wronged and unfairly persecuted."

What should she be telling her?
"You are 13, and able to set an alarm clock. Your ass had better be up and out at that school bus stop, on time, or there will be Hell to Pay."

[barb162]

31. yep, these people are playing martyrs when they are completely

responsible for their own actions. And they're teaching the kids to play the martyr game too. Manipulative, irresponsible parents.

[w4rma]

34. debtor's prisons are unConstitutional. (nt)

[indepat]

35. I despise what is becoming of my country

[Tsiyu]

39. We say we don't have debtor's prisons

This was one of the platforms and assurances of a new nation. What happened?

Very soon, debtors will be locked away again. It's Rove's fantasy Gilded Age.


"but woe unto you, pigs, because you lay grievous burdens on others and refuse to help them."

What is wrong with us as humans?

[don954]

41. what the hell?

Texas has an anti-debtors prison article in its Constitution. Couldnt this be applied to this? She isn’t the violator so this is a debt collection tactic plain and simple.

The Texas Constitution
Article 1 - BILL OF RIGHTS
Section 18 - IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT
No person shall ever be imprisoned for debt.

[Old Mouse]

43. A lot of people here are commenting on the parent's abilities

Without understanding the reality of poverty.

I do not know they are poor, but the anecdotal evidence of the article, location and number of children, makes be believe them so.

Intense, institutionalized poverty creates a day-to-day survival mentality where rational thought is extremely difficult. Being poor in this country takes all of your time, energy, and cognitive ability. It is easy to pass judgment from behind computer screens, cable modems and DSL lines over the life of a mother reduced to begging a judge not to send her son to jail.

[Tsiyu]

44. Thank you, Old Mouse

Lord, you know I fear for this country if anything catastrophic ever occurs. Some people have never known the reality of the majority of this planet. I hope they never have to know...

[BikeWriter]

46. Well said! n/t

[barb162]

47. I grew up poor and I think I can very well judge...these are lousy

parents. Period.

[rocktivity]

45. $10,000 divided by $50 a month equals NEARLY SEVENTEEN YEARS!!!

And IS jail the proper punishment for missing ONE payment? How many others had she made successfully? And meanwhile, the son gets off scot free?

Put this debt to society back upon the shoulders of the person who incurred it! Giving the monther AND son community service would be better than this!

:headbang:
rocknation

[barb162]

49. maybe somewhere along the line the kid will get a job and pay off

the bill he incurred. Basically ten bucks a week shouldn't cause the brat to get too stressed out ( one less bottle of booze or two less packs of cigarettes a week)

[rocktivity]

50. While he's looking for a job, he should work it off by painting steps,

washing city-owned cars, filing, etc. At $5.15 an hour and fifteen hours a week, he'd be settled up in less than three years.

:headbang:
rocknation