Church Groups Turn to Sonogram to Turn Women From Abortions (NYT)

[truthpusher]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/02/national/02pregnant.html

Church Groups Turn to Sonogram to Turn Women From Abortions
By NEELA BANERJEE

Published: February 2, 2005

BOWIE, Md., Jan. 26 - Sixteen months ago, Andrea Brown, 24 years old and unmarried, was desperate for an abortion, fearing the disappointment of her parents and the humiliation she might face.

While frantically searching the telephone book one day, she came across the Bowie Crofton Pregnancy Center and Medical Clinic, a church-financed organization that provides counseling and education about sexual abstinence. The receptionist told Ms. Brown that the clinic did not perform abortions or make referrals but that she could come in for an ultrasound to make sure her six-and-a-half-week pregnancy was viable. When she did, everything changed.

"When I had the sonogram and heard the heartbeat - and for me a heartbeat symbolizes life - after that there was no way I could do it," Ms. Brown said recently as she revisited the clinic and watched her daughter, Elora, now 9 months old, play at her feet.

In the battle over abortion, opponents say they have discovered a powerful new tool: sonograms. And over the last 18 months, they have started major fund-raising campaigns to outfit Christian crisis pregnancy centers with ultrasound equipment.

more:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/02/national/02pregnant.html

[seriousstan]

2. Emotions are a powerful tool

and very difficult to override.

[CoffeeCat]

3. Yep, I know about this...

My daughter's preschool had a bake sale to raise money for the school and a designated community project.

Last year's "designated community project" was helping the food pantry. This year the money went to local organization that helps teenagers who discover they are pregnant. We were told the money would specifically be going to help the organization purchase sonogram/ultrasound equipment because, "women who actually see their babies are less likely to abort."

The entire idea really upset me. For one thing, a teenager who comes into one of these "centers" expects objective advice about all options. When they are dragged into a sonogram room with a pro-life person who has a very specific agenda--it's unfair.

I believe anyone with an unexpected pregnancy should be given the honest facts about all options. I was adopted, for God's sakes. However, trying to emotionally blackmail someone who is all ready scared and vulnerable--by pointing out tiny feet on an ultrasound--is cruel manipulation.

[truthpusher]

4. Was the preschool Christian?

[CoffeeCat]

8. Yes, she was in a Catholic preschool...

...but she is no longer there now.

We switched.

[truthpusher]

9. We recently removed my daughter from catholic school...

...she is much happier..the church/school she attended placed about 500 miniature crosses on the lawn in order to honer the number of abortions each day, or hour or something like that. It was very crude...I saw on the news shortly after that someone ran their car through their makeshift monument.

[L.A.dweller]

6. The article doesn't give any background info on Ms. Brown

One has to be curious as whether or not Brown will be able to
raise her child on stable financial grounds. Being a single mother is a daunting task, it can be done, but it sure as hell is tough.
Are these church groups planning on providing assistance to ALL the mothers who they have persuaded to not have their child. If not then they are setting the single parent up for some trying times ahead.
Shame on them for not giving the proper education that is needed for such a large decision.


< Ms. Brown said she was trying to practice abstinence when she got pregnant and adds, "In the future, I plan to remain practicing abstinence till I get married." She looked at her daughter still playing on the floor and said with a laugh, "I have a constant reminder of what can happen if I don't." >

[LeftyMom]

5. Those centers

have a habit of staging ultrasounds to overestimate fetal development. Not all of them, but I've heard about it more than once. I've also heard of them requiring women to attend services at approved churches to get baby clothes and car seats and refusing any further help to women who choose to keep thier baby rather than place it for adoption.

[The White Tree]

40. That truly is sad and it is anti-Christian in my view

Any Christian who believes that the Kingdom of Heaven can be achieved by following a process wherein the end justifies the means is, in my opinion, sorely mistaken.

If people do not go willingly to God, it is not our provenience to force them.

Note, that is not a judgment on anyone, women or Christians. This is my opinion only. I believe that abortions are not a good thing and the goal for everyone should be to reduce them. But this must be done through means that do not condemn women who make that choice. Christians have no right to judge those women.

But it is hard, as a Christian, to not feel that at least some women who have abortions are doing it for the wrong reason and from a Christian perspective, committing a grave sin. So I can understand how it is seductive to fall prey to the trap that doing the things you mentioned is actually doing something good and not something wrong. This is, I think, one of the biggest perception problems that being pro-choice entails and something that I struggle with in myself constantly.

Ultimately, for me, it is this unwillingness, based on my faith, to judge another person for a choice they must make regarding their own body that is my deciding factor.

[Red State Rebel]

63. I've never heard of any such thing, do you have sources for this?

To a pregnancy clinic it doesn't matter whether it's an adoption case or not, they are just happy to save the baby.

[baby_bear]

7. pregancy prevention is what is needed, not sonograms

Many years ago when I was 17, I was in a very loving relationship (my first and only for many years), but I was unable to secure birth control (the pill or other Rx fix) unless I could get my mom's signature. Not likely!!! So I took chances. I don't need to go further. Point is, prevention of pregnancy will clearly prevent many abortions.

Parents aren't always up to the task of dealing or even talking with their kids on this. That is why I am so opposed to parental requirements for abortions or birth control.

I learned when I was 18 that my grandmother was reading the letters my boyfriend was writing to me from college, 650 miles away from where I was a senior in high school. She read them to my mother. Both realized I was having unprotected sex, and realized from the letters that my boyfriend and I were very anxious about pregnancy. Yet neither my mother nor my grandmother said anything to me or tried to help. My mother even worked for a very liberal OBGYN in town.

Please, you parents who think that you have such great relationships with your daughters, remember that they may not view those relationships the same way you do, but even more than that, please respect the young women who do NOT have great relationships with their dads or moms. Remember that if you have a great relationship, the law allowing minor abortions or across-state abortions may be necessary for daughters who don't have the advantages that your daughters do. I did not. Think about those of us who are not your daughters when you decide to try to deprive the rest of women from their right to choose. Maybe it will make you get a bit closer to your daughter when you know that the law is not what keeps you from being close to your daughter; it is your attitude and the love you may or may not show her.


b_b

[EFerrari]

10. These people are dangerous to women's health.

I saw one of their spokeswomen on CSpan (sorry, don't remember the org). But I was struck that she kept repeating over and over 1) Abortions are dangerous and lead to long term health problems; 2)Abortions lead to terrible debilitating depression; and 3) Getting a sonogram can help you make up your mind should you be in doubt about an unplanned pregnancy.

She also kept repeating that her group was nonpartisan. NOT ANTI CHOICE (an outright lie) and Christian.

She lied pretty consistantly about everything, including the fact that abortion rates are up under Bu$h and were down under Clinton.

[Southern Dem 2005]

18. No problem with this at all

Seems to me that many, many women (speaking from a man's perspective) are anxious and unsure when it comes to deciding whether to have an abortion. If something like this helps them make a decision I don't have a problem with it. I certainly hope people aren't making the argument that we should encourage someone to have an abortion. I don't support the 24 hour waiting laws and such that pro-life people use to pressure someone into not having an abortion but a voluntary sonogram (although it is kind of sneaky) doesn't seem like a problem.

[telamachus]

22. "Your kind ain't welcome round here"

I hope you have a flame proof suit :) One thing to realize is that on DU there is NO other topic that will get you flamed more than to express a view of abortion that does not include a rabid support for abortion coupled with an absolute hatred for any true informed choice. To SOME, abortions are a way to keep the right alive and any discussion of real choice such as adoption are taking rights away.

IMHO the extreme position of some democrats on the matter of abortion is a reason why Bush won.

Flame away.....

Keep abortion legal AND rare.

Peace

[Ripley]

31. What the hell does that mean?

What is an extreme position on abortion? You mean the position that most liberals have which means it's the woman's decision, not the governments?

Maybe you are in the wrong place, since you are calling DUers rabid and hater's. And blaming us for why Bush won. Not one poll showed abortion anywhere near the top of reasons people voted for the dumbass. Gay marriage, maybe for some fundies. Sell it somewhere else pal.

[telamachus]

42. Well..."Pal"

Maybe if you would actually read a post before responding then you would not make rude comments to fellow democrats.

#1 An extreme position on abortion is one that does not take into account true informed choice and in the political sense an extreme position on abortion does not see that it is a non issue because abortion is legal and although there are some groups that are politically opposed to it, there is no broad call by republicans to ban abortion. By radicalizing the issue after the right has been won is to provide fodder to the political right in their fight against the democrats. Another extreme position on abortion is the insane idea that a man has no say in the matter and can not participate in the discussion.

The purpose of the government is to provide a forum for various viewpoints to be heard and consensus to be reached. When one makes a fuss over a non issue it makes them appear radical. The reaction by many to radical positions is to fight against it no matter what the cost. With the result being government control over a particular belief.

Many people go on and on about this 'right' of a woman to have an abortion and this is seen by many as a call to actually support abortion over adoption or counseling and support. That is, to be pro abortion. I really hope that there are not any pro abortion people out there but that is what the right uses to brand pro choice people.

I support the Roe decision and think that it should stand as is. But...I will continue to press for a world where justice for ALL life is upheld and that abortion AS BIRTH CONTROL should be relegated to the trash bin of history.

#2 Please show me where I called ALL (as implied by not qualifying your statement) persons at DU as haters and rabid. The word was SOME and I stand by my claim.

#3 If you believe that I am in the wrong place then it only reinforces the notion that I have come to believe and that the infighting in the Democratic party about issues that are outside the general framework of the core of the party will ultimately lead to its own end and the end of all that the party has stood for...."the little guy"

If you truly believe that there is no room in the party for those who differ in their viewpoints from yours, are you no better than a partisan republican? I always thought that the democratic party stood for inclusion not exclusion.

I will excuse your rudeness and hope that you see that by not being inclusive of others ideas you yourself will help destroy the party not I.

Peace

[wickywom]

38. I completely agree...

My in-laws called * a moron but voted for him anyway because they've been brainwashed into thinking a vote for a Dem. is a vote for abortion....
They even mentioned wanting to be Dems if only they would change the platform...
I've repeatedly argued on why changing the law is not acceptable and why they were buying into propaganda.

We have to get thru to these people...not all Conserv. Christians want their children
to end up war fodder.

Truly and honestly we would throw the Right out of orbit if we at least tried to be something other than be abrasive on this issue.
We could easily take back the Congress in 2006.

Impeachment.

[ultraist]

59. telamachus: Rabid support w/absolute hatred for any true informed choice?

What do you mean by this comment, tele: "NO other topic that will get you flamed more than to express a view of abortion that does not include a rabid support for abortion coupled with an absolute hatred for any true informed choice."

Who espouses UNinformed choice? I believe that would be a fundie approach to deny Scientific and Medical fact and make a faith based decision.

The "RABID" support you see here is NOT for abortion per se, but for CIVIL RIGHTS! The RIGHT TO PRIVACY as stipulated by our Bill of Rights. Do you have any clue as to what Roe vs. Wade was premised on?

What an OVER THE TOP judgement of Duers. But, then again, fundies like to make over the top, punitive judgements of others who don't believe in their OT Bible rhetoric as well.

[jdj]

80. Bush won because his buddies made 80% of the voting machines.

Stop usin the enemy's wedge to try to split the democratic party.

[EFerrari]

28. I sure have a problem with care providers lying to their clients

and most licensing boards do as well.

[peacebird]

41. funny - neither my friends nor I were anxious or unsure about need to abor

Speaking from a woman's perspective. It is not a decision made lightly, but it is also not a decision anyone is unsure about. In fact - none of the women I know have ever felt anything but relief that abortion was safe and available.

If MEN could get pregnant abortion would be a sacrament.

[WindRavenX]

52. bullshit

These people are using emotions to manipulate women. Further, how freakin' condensending is that, to assume women are emotional creatures that will use emotions to make a decision?

[Mystified]

58. Your statements seem contradictory

"These people are using emotions to manipulate women. Further, how freakin' condensending is that, to assume women are emotional creatures that will use emotions to make a decision?"

You state that women are being manipulated based on appeals to their emotions. Then, in the very next breath, state that it's condescending to assume women are emotional creatures that will make decisions based upon emotions. Which is it? If women don't make decisions based on emotion then they have nothing to worry about from sonograms.

Perhaps some women who were thinking of abortion heard statements such as "a fetus is just a clump of cells, not a human being", but upon getting a sonogram realized that the clump of cells has a heartbeat, arms, legs, torso, and head and changed their minds. This is a bad thing?

[WindRavenX]

69. You misunderstood me

The reason that I find this system condensending is that they make an assumption that women make decisions based on emotions.
They aren't getting both sides and objective information to make an accurate decision.

[Samurai_Writer]

57. abortion rates

You wrote:

"She lied pretty consistantly about everything, including the fact that abortion rates are up under Bu$h and were down under Clinton."

Actually, abortion rates ARE up since 2000, when Bush took office. They were substantially lower under Clinton.

[WildClarySage]

11. We don't even know the effects of sonogram on a developing

fetus. Using them to manipulate the emotions of a pregnant woman wouldn't really be in the baby's best interests. If she was likely to change her mind anyway, maybe the ultrasound wasn't the reason... but it could be the reason for a birth defect that develops afterward.

I actually went to one of those clinics once to see what would happen. I wasn't pregnant and knew I wasn't, but I wanted to see how they operated. When I called, I specifically mentioned that I wanted abortion referral if I was pregnant. (The name of the clinic, WomenCare, was pretty neutral, so I wasn't sure if they in fact were that sort of clinic.) So I went in and requested a pregnancy test. I was given a 3 minute pee stick test and after being asked to complete a 'questionaire' (complete with loaded questions like "Would you choose an abortion if you knew it could damage your fertility and you might never be able to get pregnant again?" and "Do you wish to inquire about counseling services for trauma from a past abortion"?) After the questionaire, which took about 10 minutes to complete, I was told that my test wasn't ready and if I wanted to I could watch a short film while we waited. The propaganda film showed four stories of women who each chose to not to abort, including one woman whose BC failed, one who was raped and another woman who had health problems. Three of the women in the stories started out saying they had chosen adoption and went on to explain what a wonderful peachy thing that was. The acting was terrible and the stories were heavy handed and preachy. When it was over, 30 minutes later, I got up and went to the receptionist and asked if I was going to be able to receive abortion referral information and she just asked me to wait a minute. When the 'counselor' came out, she said my test was finally ready and it was negative. She gave me a bunch of crummy brochures on abstinence and on how awful and sinful abortion was, and also several of those Chick brochures telling me how Satan couldn't wait for me to fornicate again.

[telamachus]

24. Any actual evidence that sonograms harm a fetus?

I agree that it would be nice if there was some honesty from these clinics as well as planned parenthood.

At least you those cool Chick comics!

the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth...the key to an informed choice.

[musette_sf]

34. actually I have read recently

that sonograms DO have a risk factor. A real risk factor, unlike the BS about abortions causing cancer.

[AngryOldDem]

35. Only if they are done frequently

Or by someone who isn't trained to do them properly, as in these "Womb with a View" shops that are cropping up everywhere.

They are used to measure the size of fetal growth and to detect any abnormalities such as spina bifida or other developmental problems, some of which can be fixed in utero. They can be done if other tests come back that indicate a potential problem. Most of the time, it's done just to take measurements to determine more precisely due date, etc.

Most women generally have one midway through the pregnancy; high risk, more, depending on the judgment of the doctor.

[Mystified]

79. This may be so, but...

"We don't even know the effects of a sonogram on a developing fetus"

We do, however, know the effects of an abortion on a developing fetus.

[rooboy]

12. If this works so well, then there is no need to make abortions illegal.

They should go ahead and offer sonograms all they want. Persuasion is fine by me: coercion is not.

[EFerrari]

13. Well, you know, it's not really persuasion when the power

imbalance is so huge. It is coercion.

You're a pregnant teenager or say, early 20s. You're sick as a dog and looking for some good medical advice. You walk into this clinic and everyone looks so professional. You may be scared anyway but the clock is ticking.

That's pretty vulnerable, don't you think? It's not like you can take off your pregnancy like a coat and sit down and have a reasoned discussion when you need what they have, medical care.

[rooboy]

14. I agree with you but I imagine someone in this position...

is going to have difficulty thinking straight no matter who is talking to them. If the anti-abortionists go too far they should be prosecuted and made to pay costs towards the child's upbringing, imo.

[EFerrari]

15. Sure. Nothing like trying to think through all those hormones

The thing that bothers me most is the outright deception. There should be a special penalty for decieving the very vulnerable, frail or ill.

[telamachus]

44. Planned Parenthood is deceptive

IMHO Just take a look at their website and actually compare the information about adoption vs the information about abortion. Their questionnaires are about as biased as FOX news! Be honest about it. Planned Parenthood has an obvious agenda to promote abortion as a means of birth control as a way to keep it legal.

As to their mission to help lower pregnancy through contraception did you hear about the failure rate of the condoms they give out?

[Scout]

55. got a link for that deception?

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/pp2/portal/healthservices/;jsessionid=7C3536E04E6071A1C57EB4EB4F45B860

What health services do Planned Parenthood health centers offer?

Each Planned Parenthood affiliate is a unique, locally governed health service organization that reflects the diverse needs of its community. Planned Parenthood health centers offer a wide range of services that may include

family planning counseling and birth control

pregnancy testing and counseling

gynecological care, Pap tests, breast exams

emergency contraception

HIV testing and counseling

medically accurate sexuality education

screening and treatment for sexually transmitted infections

infertility screening and counseling

voluntary sterilization for women and men

reproductive medical exams for men

safer sex counseling

midlife services

abortions or abortion referrals

prenatal care

adoption referrals

primary care

referrals for specialized care

Compassionate care, affordable cost

Committed professionals manage Planned Parenthood health centers. Caring physicians, nurse practitioners, and other staff take time to talk with clients, encouraging them to ask questions and discuss their feelings in a confidential setting.

Each year, Planned Parenthood affiliated health centers nationwide provide high quality, affordable reproductive health care and sexual health information to nearly five million women, men, and teens. Planned Parenthood welcomes everyone — regardless of race, age, sexuality, disability, or income. In fact, one in four women has visited Planned Parenthood at least once. When clients walk through our doors, they find a dynamic community resource that offers a wide range of medical and counseling services, sexual health education and information, and reproductive rights advocacy programs.

[ultraist]

60. Well, lookey there...

It seems Planned Parenthood does NOT provide abortions but focuses primarily on the "planned" part by providing BIRTH CONTROL.

A trashing of Planned Parenthood raises a RED flag!

PREVENTION programs are what LOWER abortion rates. HELLOOOO...

[telamachus]

74. Who said they provided abortions????

Ahh you don't like it when someone disagrees with YOUR viewpoint so you make shit up about what they said...how nice.....the only red flag I see is the inability to look critically at planned parenthood ...

[Mystified]

78. If that's the case

Then why do 2 of 3 of the free condoms distributed by Planned Parenthood have the highest failure rate of any brand recently tested by Consumer Reports? This does not signal to me that they are serious about pregnancy prevention.

http://www.consumerreports.org/main/content/display_report.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=551083&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=333141&bmUID=1107466114736

(Scroll down to the bottom of the table to find the Planned Parenthood condoms in the table)

[telamachus]

73. Just look at their main website

look at it and read the WHOLE site then make up your mind.

[Scout]

75. no, you made the assertion...

it is up to you to provide a link and prove it.

I did look at their main site.

[telamachus]

77. Can't prove an opinion

sorry...if you did look at the main site did you quantify and qualify the information for balance and fairness of the issue (specifically unplanned pregnancy) ?

[Scout]

84. ok

you don't have to "prove" your opinion, I don't have to "prove" mine, and I stand by my opinion that Planned Parenthood is not deceptive.

What exactly do you mean that they are "deceptive?"

How did you quantify and qualify the information for balance and fairness of the issue (specifically unplanned pregnancy)?

[Mystified]

81. Do what?

So women can't think clearly when they are pregnant? Are they very vulnerable/frail/ill during their entire pregnancy?

[Catfight]

19. Good point, lead don't force, and I'm all for having as much

information you can before you make a decision. If it changed this woman's mind, fine, good for her, but what will they do when it doesn't?

[Moderator]

16. kick

:kick:

[rodeodance]

17. Church Groups Turn to Sonogram to Turn Women From Abortions

Story of a women who found herself pregnant and was seeking help.


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/02/national/02pregnant.html?oref=login&th

February 2, 2005
Church Groups Turn to Sonogram to Turn Women From Abortions
By NEELA BANERJEE

BOWIE, Md.,........

While frantically searching the telephone book one day, she came across the Bowie Crofton Pregnancy Center and Medical Clinic, a church-financed organization that provides counseling and education about sexual abstinence. The receptionist told Ms. Brown that the clinic did not perform abortions or make referrals but that she could come in for an ultrasound to make sure her six-and-a-half-week pregnancy was viable. When she did, everything changed.

"When I had the sonogram and heard the heartbeat - and for me a heartbeat symbolizes life - after that there was no way I could do it," Ms. Brown said recently as she revisited the clinic and watched her daughter, Elora, now 9 months old, play at her feet.

In the battle over abortion, opponents say they have discovered a powerful new tool: sonograms. And over the last 18 months, they have started major fund-raising campaigns to outfit Christian crisis pregnancy centers with ultrasound equipment........


Such centers, many financed by churches and church groups, try to persuade women through counseling to carry their pregnancies to term, and often provide prenatal are and pregnancy tests and sometimes clothing and supplies...........

[Vektor]

Can you hear

a fetal heartbeat at six weeks gestation? Any moms out there, can you answer this for me?

[China_cat]

There but not hearable

until about 10 weeks with a Doppler. I'm more concerned about the outright LIE that an ultrasound at 6 weeks would tell anybody anything about the viability of a fetus. (Or that they even used the word viability because if you remove a fetus at that stage of gestation, it is NOT viable)

From http://www.drspock.com/article/0,1510,9851,00.html

The Doppler instrument
After the 9th or 10th week after your last menstrual period, you might be able to hear your baby's heartbeat at your prenatal appointment. Your obstetrical practitioner probably uses a Doppler instrument for this purpose, which bounces harmless sound waves off the fetal heart. The way the sound comes back is affected by motion, so a beating heart creates a change in the sound that can be picked up by the receiver in the Doppler. Whether you actually hear the heartbeat at 9 or 10 weeks depends partly on luck-the instrument must be placed at just the right angle. It also depends on the position of your uterus, and if you're slim or heavy. By the 12th week, the heartbeat can usually be heard consistently, using the Doppler instrument for amplification.

[Vektor]

Ok, that's what I thought.

I had never heard of a fetal heartbeat being audibly detected that early. Thanks for the information.

[Bluebear]

That's fine with me, she made a choice

If the receptionist had lied to get her (about their clinic performing abortions or making referrals )in there only to proselytize it would be very wrong.

So many people think Democrats are "pro-abortion", which is so far removed from being "pro-choice"!

[Scairp]

I (grudgingly) agree

At least they told her what they were about when she initially called them. Still, asking her to come down for an ultrasound to see if the fetus was "viable" is kind of a strange thing to say. Why wouldn't it be viable? Sounds like she was very unsure anyway about an abortion, and this just pushed her toward carrying the pregnancy to term.

[chicagojoe]

I'm PRO-CHOICE, yet totally anti abortion.

Having said that, the CHOICE must always be there. Abortion MUST remain legal. There are many reasons a woman could need an abortion,e.g. health reasons. I personally believe that it should NOT be used as some sort of personal, regular birth control program, but the availability must remain.

One of the big Radical Right myths is "those on the Left are pro-abortion; they're anti-life".

[telamachus]

45. That is a position that is used against the democrats

and like all extreme views has a root in truth. As is evident by SOME peoples posts on DU.

[cap]

I dont disagree because it ought to be a choice...

but Planned Parenthood does need to find some mechanism to make women understand that abortion is a viable alternative depending on the women's circumstance.

[ramadoss]

Exactly

Exactly what they should be doing. Changing peoples hearts and minds instead of laws.

[Sirveri]

I can't really see the problem with this.

They made a arguement against abortion to another person, and that person decided not to have one. As is their choice and right. Is there suppossed to be a problem with this?

[ultraist]

61. Is using bribery, misinformation, and coercion appropriate?

They BRIBE them by offering clothes, food, supplies, etc and have a "professional" provide biased info. An asymmetrical relationship where misinformation is given is clearly coercion.

Viability does not occur until 6 MONTHS gestational age. Not six weeks. A heartbeat does not make a fetus viable.

Not to mention, emotionally manipulating someone does NOT make for a well informed decision.

A well informed decision is one that considers ALL of the facts and is not based solely on emotion and lack of facts. THAT would be a faith based decision, one that is ill informed.

[Sirveri]

70. I don't know. I try not to get into the whole abortion debate.

I'm not really good at it, I don't have any real concrete opinions. I don't like it but think it should be legal. But hey, at least if she does buy into their line they're willing to at least follow thru and assist her with the choice they convinced her to make, right? I mean it's a whole hell of a lot better than simply saying, 'if you have a abortion we'll throw you in jail wannabe babykiller'. I'd rather have them doing this than blowing up hospitals and sniping at doctors.

[MHalblaub]

1. The real killer is the silent moral majority.

In my opinion most abortions happen due to moral values of the surrounding society. "Just wait!"
The rest is provided through the great help women with babies get.

[Kber]

20. my 2 cents

I am 7 months preg (on purpose btw) and, earlier in the pregnancy, received a thankfully false positive result for a screening for a fatal birth defect. So I scheduled a high resolution and amnio to be sure - went to a hospital near by that does perform abortions and was expecting MEDICAL counciling. My regular OBGYN had already informed us that if the test results were bad news, that the baby would not have any organs that were suitible for donation and, considering how difficult and dangerous my first labor and delivery was, she thought we might consider abortion as an optioin.

Well, the high resolution ultrasound takes a while - about an hour. The amnio only takes a few minutes, but we had to wait 2 weeks for the result. The tech who performed the ultrasound took the "opportunity" to go give me and my husband a 1 hour lecture on the "beauty of each life", pointing out hands, feet, movement, etc, the whole time. Meanwhile, all I could think about was the child (a girl she told us) might never be born, or, if she was, would be dead befor the turned 3 months. It was awful! She also spent a lot of time trying to talk us OUT of the amnio.

The doctor, btw, was great. He explained, in a very non-judgemental way, that there were two reasons two have an amnio 1 - we didn't want to go forward with a pregnancy for a fatally ill child and 2 - we did want to go forward with the pregnancy, but needed to be prepared for the care, and evential death, of our child.

Since the amnio results were good news, we never had to make the decision, thank God. But I am still mad at that tech!

[China_cat]

33. I'm glad you didn't have to make that choice.

But I have heard many, including a 45 year old woman pregnant for the 10th time, say that the ONLY reason for an amnio is to do an abortion if something is wrong.

That woman just couldn't even hear me say that I didn't understand that because an amnio could alert to something wrong (such as the risk of Down Syndrome at her age) that could give you time to learn about and prepare for. I had an amnio with my youngest (a year BEFORE Roe v. Wade) because of severe Rh incompatibility and it saved his life.

I just don't understand the level of dishonesty people use to try to support their point. Or the level of dishonesty about their real point. Which isn't just to end abortion rights but to stop birth control, also.

[AngryOldDem]

36. Did you report the tech's unprofessional behavior? nt

[Kber]

48. yes

i mentioned it to both my Doctor and the doctor who performed the amnio. it was distressing.

[peacebird]

51. just what you DIDN'T need at such a trying time

good grief. I am furious that the tech would subject you to that! I do hope this tech was fired - what if they did that to someone whose amnio revealed the worst?!?

[Love Bug]

49. Glad to hear all is well with you both

You should really report that tech. She had no business trying to talk you out of a medical procedure -- that is considered practicing medicine without a license and she can get in a whole heap o' trouble for it. Plus, her lecture added a great deal to your emotional distress, which was just what you did not need at that time.

What she did had nothing to do with "informed decision." It was all about emotional manipulation, just as these "clinics" that perform unneeded ultrasounds have an agenda of manipulating women into not choosing abortions.

I'll bet pulls this stunt with every woman she treats.

[spinbaby]

54. You need to complain about that tech

I had a friend who went in for an ultrasound for the same reasons. In her case, there were gross abnormalities which the tech cheerfully pointed out. I told her she ought to complain about the tech but am not sure she ever did.

[hedgehog]

21. If the people on this thread are really Pro-choice, why aren't you

fighting to ensure all mothers get proper medical care and financial support for themselves and their children? What kind of choice is it when the mother sees no other way out but abortion? To me, many on both sides are hypocrites because the real message is don't expect me and my money to help take care of your child.

[telamachus]

25. BINGO

nice to see a rational person post on this issue!!!!!:):):)

There has to be a middle ground that protects the rights of both women and children.

[EFerrari]

29. Hmm. It looks like you're attacking a position no one is taking?

[bleedingheart]

32. You have that all wrong...Pro-Choice organizations also

support and fund prenatal care and pro-choice legislators are typically the ones who advocate programs like CHIP & WIC so that when the little ones are born they continue to have healthcare and food.

[AngryOldDem]

37. I do what I can

through doantions to pregnancy centers that help with medical expenses, baby clothes, counseling, the whole bit.

Don't make the assumption that all pro-life people are all talk and no action.

The true blame for this lies with the man in Washington who has cut many poverty and housing programs that were designed to help these exact people. Save your vitriol for "faith-based" people like him -- I'm trying to do the best I can, but I'm not rich by any stretch. I do what I can and I don't appreciate that my efforts are constantly denigrated.

[ultraist]

64. Most of us Do fight for increased funding for social programs

Supporting social programs is a Democrat stance. It's the Repukes who have slashed funding, remember?

[noonwitch]

23. As long as those clinics are up front about their purpose, it's okay.

I just don't like it when "birthright" clinics pretend to be abortion clinics, and then get women in there and start preaching at them. Although, the phone book companies have gotten pretty strict about separating them into different headings.

[cap]

30. biased evidence

my fear would be that zealots would start skewing test results for their own ideology...

Maybe the Ultrasound shows a baby and you can hear a heart beat but I would like to know if the kid is OK and that I have a fighting chance to have it.

I think we need Planned Parenthood to take on prenatal care as one of their issues. We need to make sure that a choice is a real choice. We need Planned Parenthood to discuss responsiblity within relationships. We need Planned Parenthood to dispense contraceptives and scientific information about their risks. We need Planned Parenthood to make sure that abortion remains a safe, legal and rare alternative. Planned Parenthood needs to tell people sometimes abortion is necessary on medical grounds -- you cant have a baby die inside you. The mother risks renal failure. Death happens very quickly -- there's no time for a Cesarean. Planned Parenthood needs to fight for proper funding of foster care so that children whose families cant support them can lead a decent life. Planned Parenthood needs to fight for job training for expectant mothers who realize that they cant make it on a Walmart salary. Planned Parenthood needs to fight for a change in corporate culture so that men can take the time off and support their wives.

Pro-choice advocates need to make it clear that they are fight for a REAL CHOICE. They should not be marginalized as "Baby Killers". I dont believe for a minute that Planned Parenthood really appreciates cleaning up after the few cases of sexual irresponsibility; but I believe that they are quite correct in not judging an individual's circumstance. The factors that go into a decision to have or not have a child are too complex for any one to play God.

[ultraist]

65. Planned Parenthood DOES provide Birth control FREE to the poor!

Most of what you described that PP needs to do, they already do. Check out the link further up the thread and visit their site so you understand who they are and what they do.

They are about PLANNING not providing follow up AFTER the decision is made except for referrals. That would be out of their scope and in conflict with their mission statement.

My cousin is a Dr. that does pro bono work for Planned Parenthood and you might just be amazed to know what type of work they really do, to prevent the spread of AIDS across the globe and prevent unwanted pregnancies. NOT TO MENTION, offering free pap smears to poor women to screen for diseases or other conditions that need treatment.

ANYONE demonizing Planned Parenthood raises a RED flag warning, IMO.

They do far more to prevent AIDS and unwanted pregnancy, promoting the RARE part of keeping abortions, safe, RARE, and legal than any FUNDIE org.

[WildClarySage]

76. Planned Parenthood doesn't NEED to do these things,

society does. All PP needs to do is follow their own mission statement. You're expecting too much of them to be everything to every need. They do an excellent job with the responsibilities they've accepted.

And, "cleaning up after the few cases of sexual irresponsibility"?

[0007]

26. The bible thumper have tried every other tactic so why not

this one? Just another scare tactic. Something tells me that if a person is gonna have a echogram, sonogram, or ultra sonogram they are gonna go through with the birth.

When talking about women's rights many persons fail to understand that freedom ends where that woman nose begins"

[bleedingheart]

27. Will this group provide all the prenatal exams and delivery for free?

because hearing a heartbeat is one thing...paying for and aiding a woman through a pregnancy is another.

Personally I think that this young woman made the choice she probably wanted to make..to stay pregnant...and that is fine by me.

Does this group then push her off to Planned Parenthood to do the rest? Cuz I know this much ...no one at PP will coerce anyone to do anything against their will...but the will provide prenatal treatment.

[Corgigal]

39. I think its wonderful

just make sure Ms Andrea Brown stops by the Bowie Crofton Pregnancy Center and Medical Clinic to get her monthly check to help feed/care for the baby. I'm so sure they would be happy to help since they already fund the sonograms.

[Bridget Burke]

43. Apparently Ms. Brown's major problem was embarrassment....

That's rather weak grounds for an abortion. And she was 24 years old--young, but no teenager.

Ultrasound equipment is rather expensive--too bad the money can't go to help support pregnant women who need assistance.

What happens when the sonogram shows a malformed fetus? Some problems are obvious but others need an expert eye to detect. Are the potential mothers given all details when there's a problem?

[Malva Zebrina]

46. the heartbeat of an embryo begins at about

the fourth or fifth week into gestation( two or three weeks after a missed period)
At that stage of the process, the embryo measures about 1/6 of an inch and has no arms, legs, fingers toes, ability to speak, cry, scream, sing or dance and does not even look like a human"baby". This stealthy move by fanatics whose primary concern is to force pregnancy on women by appeals to guilt, pity, and serving up the logical fallacy of equating this embryo with a "potential" human being is really not an ethical thing to do.

[ultraist]

66. It looks like a tadpole with a tail at six weeks

And often times there is not a heartbeat at six weeks, but generally, this is when one can be seen on an ultrasound, but I don't think it is audible that early.

It does not look like a minature baby like the tiny anatomically INcorrect plastic fetuses that anti-choicers use.

[Malva Zebrina]

68. yeah, those little bubs and nubs

are cute little fingers. Ain't it cute? It has a head WITH A BLACK EYE, not quite developed, therefore it can think! (and sometimes it can talk or cry or scream for it's "right to life")and it is only 1/6 of an inch! It can even point and suck it's non existant thumb
!

Yup this is a "baby" . It has hunger and thirst, and can cry for it's basic needs which the mother is obliged to provide.



This embryo is no different at this stage than a chick embryo, or a cat embryo or a cow embryo or a fish embryo.

Yet, the right to life people insist that this is a human being a human "baby" because the evividence of a heartbeat absolutely proves it! You gotta a heart that beats--that means you are a human being, even though you have no arms, or legs or brain or neurological development.

If there is a heart that beats, that means "it" is a human being!

The ancients mistakenly believed that the heart was the seat of the soul. And it seems to be carrying over to those who are so ignorant and so religiously fanatic that they would use stealth and specious methods, to appeal to pity, or guilt or ignorance to convince women they have no control over their lives or reproductive system. They indeed have a nerve to enjoy sex and now need to suffer a pregnancy for their "sin"



It seems that those who would force women to pregnancy, are going back to medieval times, when witches who knew about herbal medicine in the face of mythology where the stars were gods, and comets were gods, and the religion was the governing power, who did everything it could to stop the advances of science, were burned at the stake by a million or more, for their support of womens health and the knowledge of herbal medicine.

Ugh==women know your anatomy and your biology, your rights, and do not fall prey to these religious fanatics who would force a pregnancy upon you and call you a "killer" if you choose to abort a 1/6 of an inch embryo that has no arms legs or brain and amounts to a tablespoon of debris from an abortion.

You do NOT need to buy into the flawed logic that "it" is a "potential" baby. YOU are a potential whatever you want to be also.

It is NOT a shame to NOT want to be a mother. All mothers are not saints to be adored on a ceertain day in May when they are given gifts for breeding.

There are thousands of women who do NOT want children and they have the right to that view and that choice. If you do not want to be a mother you do NOT need to be forced into being one if you find that totally against what you think about yourself and your own life.

Do not let these religious fanatics force you into pregnancy. Your body is NONE of their business. They have NO right to control over you.

You have choice, it is legal, it is up to you and not these crazed religious fanatics who want to tell you what to do with your body and your life.

[kiraboo]

47. Interesting. I believe that one must make an informed decision or

hold off on taking any action. Therefore, I am not necessarily opposed to sonograms, although I am vehemently opposed to a sonogram accompanied by a lecture on "morality," "the value of human life," etc. But I'm willing to bet that some of those who support the sonogram thing are opposed to seeing real, graphic war footage in the media. We don't want to see death, only, precious, "innocent" life.

[PurityOfEssence]

50. How about sonograms in the first few days?

That'll take some work, huh?

How about showing photos of flagellating sperms? Why not whip up some kind of sympathy for those poor little guys?

These people need to be hit back with the same kind of reality they like to force upon people. How about a nice graphic video of a woman who's physically at risk when giving birth and showing her die in agony? It wouldn't matter, though, because god willed it.

[justjones]

53. So what. They give you a sonogram right before an abortion....

I think it's to measure how far along a woman is in her pregnancy. They can tell how many weeks you are according to the size of the fetus. After that, you get the abortion.

I don't know of too many women who go into Planned Parenthood for an abortion and decide not to abort because of the sonogram. The woman who decided not to abort was probably already on the fence about the pregnancy. For every woman like her, there's one who will end her pregnancy no matter what.

So let them buy their equipment, give women sonograms, but let's not forget that this is propaganda of the sort that is trying to make us believe that the women who abort don't know what they are doing...that if women just "heard the heartbeat," it would change everything....what a load of crap. Women know exactly what they are doing when they decide to have a child OR when they decide to have an abortion. We deserve more credit than that, especially when it comes to such life altering decisions.

Let's just not let them make abortion illegal.

[Red State Rebel]

62. Difference: Abortion Clinic doesn't let you see the screen.

These places do.

[ramadoss]

71. not true

Some do still allow you to see the screen. Many recently started prohibiting the would be fathers from attending sonograms and also the mother from seeing the screen. They did this because the techs who do the sonograms are not certified to decipher the images and some gave people bad information prior to the doctor looking. This resulted in some lawsuits and eventually the ban. Some places still allow you to see the screen and fathers to attend. You just have to find them.

There is nothing wrong with this tactic of convincing people to not get an abortion. They still have the ultimate CHOICE. If something liek this convinces them to CHOOSE not to get an abortion that is wonderful. Changing peoples minds and hearts this way is much better and leaves choice, changing laws and forcing people to comply does not leave a choice.

[ernstbass]

56. Somebody stop this madness!

[VegasWolf]

67. Just keep the damned churches out of my life please. n/t

[Merope215]

72. Amen to that

Fundies out of my uterus!

[aikido15]

83. Keep your rosaries off my ovaries!

[aikido15]

82. Does anyone in here work for PP, or used their services?

I have, and they are about a whole lot more than abortion and have done great work to help women AND men with family planning, not just abortion.

When you go to get an abortion you first have to talk to a counselor about other options, but they don't pull a dirty trick like this to rip your heart out over your choice!

This is wrong, period, and so are the PP bashing posts.