Study: Illness, medical bills account for half of bankruptcies

[truthpusher]

http://www.wrgb.com/news/regional/regional.asp?selection=article_27656

Wednesday, February 2, 2005 12:01 AM

Study: Illness, medical bills account for half of bankruptcies

(Boston - AP) — Costly illnesses trigger about half of all personal bankruptcies, and health insurance offers no protection against ending up in bankruptcy court.

That's according to findings from a Harvard University study to be released today.

Researchers from Harvard's law and medical schools say the findings underscore the inadequacy of many private insurance plans that offer worst-case catastrophic coverage, but little financial safety net for less severe illnesses.

Dr. David Himmelstein, the study's lead author, says many people are just one serious illness away from bankruptcy.

complete story:
http://www.wrgb.com/news/regional/regional.asp?selection=article_27656

[kuozzman]

1. This is VERY significant. n/t

[hector459]

73. What a shameful commentary on the wealthiest nation on earth!!

What is wrong with the American people. Why don't they rise up against this government and the corporate systems that are an albatross around their necks?

[shrike]

2. Health Savings Accounts are the answer

(sarcasm alert)

[Xenotime]

81. Ha!

You got me there. Good one.

[lovuian]

3. Should people go bankrupt because they are ill

No its not right!!!

People from medical illness don't need this we need National Health Insurance

this medical care for the halfs and no care for the have nots is not fair and un American

[Liberty Belle]

7. Or just die.

[Helga Scow Stern]

21. Well see, we don't need any health insurance

because God punishes through sickness and rewards in health. If those poor little unbelievers don't have health insurance, well that just make's God's job of clearing the earth of the unbelievers that much easier.

Edited to add: I am not kidding. This is the thinking.

See http://www.theocracywatch.org/audio-video.htm

[ashmanonar]

4. it's either give us health insurance

or make health care affordable and reliable...as in, don't charge us up the ASS for simple procedures that will more than likely need to be done again...

[MountainLaurel]

74. Many did have health insurance

What killed them was the other costs that weren't covered: copays and deductibles, physical therapy, orthopedic aids and wheelchairs, round-the-clock nursing, etc.

So obviously health insurance isn't necessarily an answer.

[ashmanonar]

77. well, yea

i meant health insurance that completely covers any ailments we may have (that require treatment: i mean, honestly, unless getting a cold affects you in other ways, it's something you have to get over yourself). a broken arm? you go to the doctor and it gets fixed. none of this co-pay bullshit that keeps the american health insurance companies rich.

[LoZoccolo]

5. I can see the conservative response to this right now.

"They should have made enough money before they got sick."

There's this girl I know (who says she lives in Naperville but really lives outside of it, if that tells you anything), and I can picture her saying this, I kid you not.

Any time something goes wrong and someone doesn't have enough money to get out of it, it's always something they should have done years ago, going all the way back to when they were in elementary school or something.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

6. I was just going to post this here

I just saw it on the NYTimes site.
It would be interesting to hear some DU'rs stories- this is a serious problem.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/business/AP-Medical-Bankruptcies.html?oref=login&pagewanted=print&position=

[Erika]

8. My son and his wife had to file bankruptcy

in Phoenix. They both had good jobs and were making great progress. They bought a house, had a child, and were doing great. My son carried the insurance on the family with his insurance policy through his employer. His employer is a large corporate employer.

My daughter-in-law had a series of medical problems including a hysterectomy and diabetes. She had to quit her job. Then my grandson was diagnosed with asthma after multiple tests, etc. They had no choice but to file for bankruptcy debtor-in-possession.

He was paying about $450.00 a month for the insurance coverage with a large deductible and co-pays for everything else, tests, visits, prescriptions. So it was not as if he hadn't tried to be responsible in his medical coverage for his family.

Her condition has now stabilized and she is now able to work about 20 hours a week. So far they have been able to keep their house but it's a day to day situation.

It is disgusting to me that insurance and medical care costs so much that it can bankrupt decent and hard-working families when they run into medical problems.

That is my story that I'm contributing.

[undergroundpanther]

9. I hate this game...

Some people are raised to expect they are entitled and that its OK to exploit people who are sick,vunerable or desperate...These arrogant people will understand suffering when they are deprived .In reality greed can't justify a lack of compassion in a rich company just because this sicko empire culture thinks it's OK to make people desperate or scared enough to sell themselves to eat or pay rent.
That is coercion.And too many cultures think it's normal.
It's time to stop playing this game of make believe that is leading us into dispair.

When was it ever "normal" to be forced to pay for your existence and scramble for wealth we all co-create against each other? In this society you NEVER chose to be part of in the first place(born here) stuck in a crazy culture you never chose to be in(raised in it) and have little say in how it is run? When do you reach your limit of tolerance for greedy individuals taking more than thier share and refuse to go along with the demands for more work,more time,more money from those who have plenty and power. Sometimes you choose freedom and integrity over your safety,convenience,custom or the threats of pigs. This refusal to acquiesce to coercion is the hallmark of free people.
And the boogeyman greed and debt is stealing security, freedom and happiness from most of us.

People, any coercion or contrived situational desperation that a boss,landlord or other culturally sanctioned exploiter of suffering or need does not indicate we live in freedom or in any sense of equality yet we are all human beings right?.

Work or starve is not humane it's coercion.And billions believe this cocercion is OK because they have co opted a belief that slavery and debt to others who have plenty who give you very little is legitamate. Wage slavery and debt slavery is still slavery,if your alternative to enslavement is suffering,or death. It's crazy that in rich industrialized countries like ours most people see nothing immoral about exploiting people who cannot work ,who are in a desperate situation,or will not work because they value freedom more than most people in their sick society,Sad truth is most people have found 'happiness' in this slavery, and dying on the street from exposure or hunger is OK as long as it happens to someone else they imagine is inferior to themselves. The homeless and non working are human beings too.Most mammals don't let their own kin suffer and die among plenty like we do.

Humanity is SICK!!

Notions like obey or die is not freedom,obeying a sick immoral law or go to jail or lose your home is not freedom,it's abusive.
Shit like pay us or suffer is not freedom,it's extortion.
To have to sell your sex or starve on the street is not freedom,it's coercion and sexual exploitation.
Working like a dog just to pay off a bill accrued by desperate need in a rich country like ours to stop your own suffering ,because a rich company you pay too much to cover healthcare is not doing what you pay the company to do,because the company wants more profits, is immoral.
And every state apparatus in the world is full of comfortable haves that make their careers on exploiting the suffering of the have nots.

The saddest part of all is the have nots have convinced themselves and each other the haves are entitled to coerce and deprive them of sustenance of life and that they can sacrifice freedom to play this game..The secure and powerful ones set up desperate situations for have nots and then we blame ourselves or fellow have nots for not"making"it,All the while ignoring it is the haves who deliberately set up the uneven playing field in such an unequal way so they stay on top..and never suffer.

This inequality is a LIE the rich have made up that only works when have nots believe they deserve to be treated as lessors,instead of respected as equals to the self appointed "masters"and bosses who think they are entitled rule.

When society is unequal and some are on "top" of the rest it's only because many on the bottom are suffering and not uprising to force equality into the culture enough to knock these self declared and undeserving elites down to eye to eye level with all of us..
The rich and powerful will never stop taking until they are forced to stop.Give them their own medicine coerce them,from the bottom up to share the wealth we all make together,or die.

If more people would bite the"masters" hands when he gets too greedy rather than obey,strive and working harder ,Disobediance and refusing to be exploited is the way to change things.

Shame on the so called"elites" and ahame on thier abuses of humanities vunerabilities.

[Erika]

11. ExcellentPost

Today, in America, it's like we OK a caste system and even ecourage it. Reagan is responsible for this twisted and UnChristian thinking.

If we continue following the GOP line, we will start building pauper's prisons with people feeling no remorse for doing so.

Welcome to Bush's America, the land of Dickens, Zola, and Hugo.

We need to wake up.

[truthpusher]

63. Not to bring religion into this whole thing....

...but, if Jesus were alive today, he would say the same thing. Very Jesus-esque way of thinking (this is a positive thing when applied truthfully)

[undergroundpanther]

66. Jesus

Is a metaphor.The bible is also full of murder rape and genocide sanctioned by god too.

The bible is no "guide to morality" and Jesus isn't either.
Sorry.

Morality comes from experiences,honesty about how those experiences felt and empathy for others suffering.

You can believe but belief alone helps nobody,and pursuit of god without empathy for others who disagree or see got differently gives you witch hunt morality.
The bible is very morally relativistic and was edited by Rome under the wishes of Cesar in the Nicea council. To me the book is pure evil propaganda with a tiny bit of truth in it for convincing effects.Gnosticism was the original belief system and it has more truth in it than Christianity does.Pity Christians destroyed so much of their writings in pursuit of worldly domination..including the destruction and persecution of this anarchistic exploring religion that CAN set you free..(Inquistions ect.)
One such piece of truth left behind in the bible are the lines about spiritual fruit..that says good trees give good fruit bad trees bad fruit,ect..and good trees don't give bad fruit and bad trees don't give good fruits,,and the stuff about the necessity for spiritual discernment.Too bad the bible says so little about what spiritual discernment is. People these days don't discern squat,maybe that's why there are so many fundees.

Those who seek to rule the world for thier god forget who rules this world and it aint Jesus. In effect dominionists,fudies and kingdom now people according to thier bible do what jesus wouldn't do when he got hisd offer in the desert..they bow down to satan to control the kindoms of this world.

Gnostic's had some great stuff to say about fundies,and how evil they are ,and they are colorful words too.

[shrike]

71. Off-topic, but ...

You have your history a bit wrong, i think. It was Constantine at the Nicean council, not Caesar, although I may be mistaken. And the image of Christ, and the bible, had been evolving long before that council.

[Skittles]

24. it is disgusting indeed, Erika

and the turmoil and anguish it puts people through - it cannot help their recovery now can it? It is truly obscene what health "care" in America has become.

[madrchsod]

12. my wife and i filed twice

chapter `13 and then straight 7 after several years of medical bills that were not filed by the insurance company on time ,then add the lost wages on and off for several years put us in a huge whole. at that time filing for bankruptcy over medical bills,ect did not count against your credit score. that was awhile ago, i supposed it has changed by now...

[barb162]

83. "Medical bills pave way to poorhouse, study says"

this is from the Chicago Tribune web site

Medical bills pave way to poorhouse, study says
Many bankruptcies linked to illness

By Bonnie Miller Rubin
Tribune staff reporter
Published February 2, 2005


"Medical bills may lurk behind about half of personal bankruptcy filings in the United States, according to Harvard University researchers who also found a majority of the debtors they surveyed were middle-class, owned homes and had health insurance at the onset of their illness.

snip


Suzanne Gibbons knows how a prolonged illness can lead to financial ruin. Following a stroke, heart disease and other complications, the 58-year-old nurse found herself owing tens of thousands of dollars despite having health insurance.

snip


But in June 2000, she was hospitalized at Our Lady or Resurrection Hospital for a bowel obstruction and a stroke. The bill for her five-day stay was $53,000, of which only $4,000 was covered by her insurer.

snip

Because of her illness, Gibbons quit her full-time nursing job and could only work between 20 and 24 hours a week for a temp agency. That not only left her uninsured when her hours dropped below a minimum number, but also shrank her income considerably.

snip

excellent article

[Robert Oak]

10. US stands alone as not giving a rats ass for it's citizens

on health.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialized_medicine

Has brief descriptions of socialized medicine plans in other countries.

With so many nations having gone before the US it's amazing
the rhetoric out there is that socialized medicine won't work is the
status quo of propaganda.

[Supersedeas]

102. Bankruptcies combines with changes to Medicare/Medicaid spell isolation

for America's most needy.

Is there an Evangelical answer to the destruction of the social safety net?

Accept Jesus and the Faith Based Initiatives may be able to help you my deary.

[progressivebydesign]

13. My Mom, a DUer, had to file bankruptcy..

.. she has never really recovered financially. She got severe, life-threatening pneumonia and ended up in ICU, WHILE she was insured. BUT.. the insurance compan GOT AWAY with saying that because she had asthma before she was insured, this pneumonia was not covered, EVEN THOUGH it was related to a VIRUS, not the asthma. Total BULLSHIT. But.. they got away with it to the tune of over ten thousand dollars.. at least.

I'll keep saying this.. WHY exactly is anyone upset with Howard Dean for saying he hates the Republican Party??

[LoZoccolo]

28. Uh, because that's not what he said?

Everyone who objected to it knows that - why would you pretend they don't? Hilarious.

[truthpusher]

64. What a bunch of Assholes! n/t

[barb162]

84. what happened to your mom happens all the time re the

pre-existing nonsense.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

14. I knew it played a large part in many bankruptcies.

But, I had no idea it was half.

Health care is a basic need. It's not something you can consume less of to save money. Serious illness is not something a person plans for. If you can't afford health insurance or don't have adequate coverage you put off going to a physician for financial reasons. Often this leads to higher cost down the road due to a lack of preventive care.

The basic need for health care is not a reason to have to file bankruptcy.

[Erika]

17. I will repeat

my son was paying into his health plan at $450.00 a month. It was not as if he and his family were uninsured. They were. The costs of the deductibles and the co-pays bankrupted him and his family.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

22. I meant no disrespect to your son's situation.

I wasn't even addressing his situation.

I was simply saying that health care is a basic human need. One which many people cannot afford to adequately provide for themselves and their families due to being uninsured or under-insured.

I was also expressing my anger over the fact that I live in a country where people have to face financial ruin due to illness.

I'm sorry for the problems your son had.. I certainly agree that insane co-pays and deductibles are a huge problem.

[purduejake]

15. You guys are right...

Even with health insurance, you are screwed. I was injured in a car accident 2 years ago and had at LEAST $550,000 worth of coverage for medical bills and losses. The insurance company stopped paying after just $25,000 and I couldn't get medical care unless I paid with my credit cards. I was a 21 y/o college student without a job and had over $20,000 worth of credit. That was maxed out, and I CANNOT file bankruptcy or I will loose most of the money I would get if I don't file bankruptcy. I think I'm going to make it without going bankrupt, but I've been dragging my very supportive parents down with me and they're on the brink of bankruptcy as well. I just hope I can pay them back and get on my feet again, and I wasn't responsible for the accident and couldn't avoid it. Sorry about the rant, but just more info about a bad health care system that many people think will protect them... until the med payments are refused.

edit: clarity

[Autobot77]

16. I can hear the Repukes now...

1. "...But, but, you'd have to wait reaallly long, cause government is inefficient "

2. "...Canada has socialized medicine and they come down here all the time because our system is better, so there"

3. "...Our system is better because its more advanced because fre markets encourage innovation, blah, blah,blah"

4. "...There are non-profit groups out there who help people without insurance"

5. "...that'll cause a huge tax increase!Bugga,bugga!

Talking points 1 and 4 were both in some Repukes column, whos name escapes me.

2 and 5 were repeated constantly by Oxy Rush, and I don't remember where 3 came from.

Out of all of them 1,2,3 and 4 are the hardest to refute. Anyone have any info on this? Anyone from a country w/ socialized medicine?

[Ezlivin]

53. One answer: Veteran's Administration Hospitals

While many of these hospitals have received some (deserved) bad press over the last several years, by and large they function well. If they were properly funded, they would work great.

When people claim that we have no experience with a government-run health care system they seem to ignore the VAMCs all over the country.

We've got all the parts for a successful health care program; all they need is some assembly and some funding.

[athenap]

100. While I don't have statistical info...

The key is to work on reframing these arguments.

<i>1. "...But, but, you'd have to wait reaallly long, cause government is inefficient "</i>

A: Ask a mother whose child is sick if she would rather wait long or be unable to get treatment altogether.

<i>2. "...Canada has socialized medicine and they come down here all the time because our system is better, so there"</i>

A: Then why is it such a high-profile issue to prevent Americans from using Canadian prescription drug suppliers

<i>3. "...Our system is better because its more advanced because free markets encourage innovation, blah, blah,blah"</i>

A: Are you saying it's more moral to profit from sick people than to care for them?

<i>4. "...There are non-profit groups out there who help people without insurance"</i>

A: Why isn't the government one of them?

<i>5. "...that'll cause a huge tax increase!Bugga,bugga!</i>

A: Go back and ask that mother if she'd rather pay a few more dollars in taxes for the chance to have her child adequately taken care of by a medical professional.

I've concluded that it's about reframing--not all these responses make that much sense, I know, but neither does the idea that health care, in a country as wealthy as ours, isn't considered a right of all citizens. Take a leaf from marketing principle and turn it into an appeal to emotions, a quick, sound-byte talking point, and start changing minds little by little, so that the society demands the change, rather than the government forcing the change on the society. This is where the pulpit would come in handy.

[teakee]

18. It is true. I was one of them.

And now, you just do without healthcare that most people take for granted. I'm still paying medical bills from '01. (I filed bankruptcy from almost 7 years ago for medical bills before that.)

I am now on SSDI and on Medicare. You learn to not get any tests and live as cheaply as you can on meds. I really don't expect to live as long as people with health insurance.

And if you ever get disabled enough to have to file for SSDI, expect to lose EVERYTHING before you get the disablity. You will have no pride or dignity left. (And the lawyer's money will come out to the tidy amount that is allowed by law.)

[Erika]

19. Maybe Bush should start looking into OUR needs

and spread a little bit of our bucks here. This really angers me.

[KT2000]

20. Heading you way

In the process of living off my last assets to qualify for abject povety - SSDI.
Was hoping I would die of the flu this year but looks like I skated through that one.
Onward I guess.

[teakee]

23. Good Luck to you.

The SSA treats you like you are a crook, until the judge says you are disabled. Maybe, you won't have to go that far. I have relatives that are in better health them me, and they got it without a lawyer.

I think one of the problems was that for years I downplayed health problems and kept working. Then, secretly hiding how bad of shape I was in, and then to up-play my health problems was awful. I'm 44 years old, this was 2 years ago. I learned to hide pain well and push on--till my body just whacked.

I'll say a prayer for you, I know how depressing the process is (and I was already depressed) and how far it grinds you down. God bless you and be strong.

[KT2000]

25. Thank you

[carolinalady]

57. I too am disabled--We had to file chapter 7 and lost everything

Then to add insult to injury, when I was awarded SSDI I made too much money to qualify for Medicaid. My husband is a plumber with no health insurance offered at his job. For two years I have been waiting to receive Medicare and have not been able to afford medical care. I think it is ironic. I have systemic scleroderma and can't see a doctor. I will finally qualify at the end of this month. I got a "raise" in January but my Medicare actually made me lose more money than my original monthly allowance. It is a great country we live in.

[teakee]

69. I understand, about the too much money.

Same here when I was waiting for SSDI, because of my kids' child support--3 kids got $600--that is what we survived on. My meds cost around $200 at that time. Now the meds are around $400 a month. Thank goodness, for my sis and b-in-l.

I was so silly thinking when I finally got Medicare, I could go see specialists or get the tests the doctor wanted me to get, HA! I'm still not taking my meds like I'm suppose to--skipping and stretching--- I could take my pain killers like they are prescribed and I would have a better quality of life, but at the end of the month, it would still cost another $400 for all my meds. My way, the meds last a month and half. You learn to deal and survive. And sometimes, even make lemonade. :)

[miss_kitty]

26. that's where mine is coming from

I've been living this story since july 2001. I am not at all surprised and don't feel so stupid now.

[area51]

27. tax $

We need a wise use of our tax dollars by going to universal healthcare in the U.S. If republinazis would bother using their 2 brain cells to actually think, they'd be able to figure out that a healthier workforce is a more productive workforce.

---

"Prosperity is just around the corner." -- Herbert Hoover
"The economy has turned a corner." -- GW Bush

Herbert Hoover = GW Bush

Neither man cared about the Depression their economic policies created.

[barb162]

95. they're shipping the work to Asia and there will be no

workforce here, so what do they care about the US public.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

29. Post more personal stories DU'rs

There are some good ones above- put this to reality.

[jayfish]

65. I Was Just Sued...

by my hospital for expenses ($750.00) that were not covered by my insurance. The expenses were from the birth of my second child. I had been making payments but had to stop for about 9 months. What pisses me off the most is that this hospital has been paid 10's if not 100's of thousands of dollars by my insurance company over the years for my and my families health-care. I'm am going to write them a "fuck-you" letter and take my business elsewhere. (not that it will make a bit of difference) Luckily I have a POS plan so this should not be a problem to do.

Jay

[truthpusher]

30. kick

[leftchick]

31. Half of Bankruptcy Due to Medical Bills -- U.S. Study

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&ncid=578&e=9&u=/nm/20050202/ts_nm/health_bankruptcy_dc


WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Half of all U.S. bankruptcies are caused by soaring medical bills and most people sent into debt by illness are middle-class workers with health insurance, researchers said on Wednesday.



The study, published in the journal Health Affairs, estimated that medical bankruptcies affect about 2 million Americans every year, if both debtors and their dependents, including about 700,000 children, are counted.


"Our study is frightening. Unless you're Bill Gates (news - web sites) you're just one serious illness away from bankruptcy," said Dr. David Himmelstein, an associate professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School (news - web sites) who led the study.


<snip>

The average bankrupt person surveyed had spent $13,460 on co-payments, deductibles and uncovered services if they had private insurance. People with no insurance spent an average of $10,893 for such out-of-pocket expenses.

[cornermouse]

32. And this is why Bush's pie in the sky claims of

passing an inheritance down to your children is ridiculous. Between medical bills and nursing home bills, your kids will be inheriting nothing but air, probably heavily polluted air at that.

[salin]

33. There isn't an explanation for that last item

in the excerpt - why the uninsured average debt was lower - except by inference.... that there are more bankruptcies filed by middle income earners than lower income earners because the middle income earner has something to "protect" - while there is little relief that can be offered to lower income earners - so it may be that the figures are related to who is filing bankruptcy? Other thoughts or potential explanations?

[cornermouse]

35. How much does it cost to file for bankruptcy?

And does garnishment of wages figure into it?

[happyslug]

50. Filing fee is $209

But the amount of Paperwork required by an attorney will lead to charges of $800 to $2000 depending on any complexity in the case.

I always try to talk people out of bankruptcy, especially if state law protects them. My home state of Pennsylvania prohibits attachment of Wages (Except for Student Loans, Taxes, Support, "Board" and "damages to leasehold premises"), thus credit card debt can NOT be grounds to attach wages in Pennsylvania (I believe this is true of only one other state in the Union, Texas, through I have not checked up on Texas law in the last ten years to confirm that attachment of wages is Still not permitted in Texas).

While Attachment of wages is NOT permitted in Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania only permit a debtor to exempt $300 from any personal or real Execution Sale. Thus most of the Bankruptcies I fill are to protect someone's car or house goods from being sold (I work with low income people not middle class clients).

Again my experience is the number one reason for filing Bankruptcy is medical costs followed by a lawsuit (Which covers most Credit Card Debts).

[dixielib]

38. the key word is "spent"

I am an ER nurse...many uninsured patients don't pay their bills, or only as much of it as they can afford. I frequently have patients ask for take home meds, especially pain meds, because "I can't afford to get this prescription filled." If they aren't willing or can't afford to pay for a prescription, do you think they are willing/able to pay for the several hundred $$ ER bill?

[HysteryDiagnosis]

34. It's simple.... middle america.... just use your tax cut to cover this

sort of thing... sheeesh. </sarcasm>

Brilliant!!!!!

[TaleWgnDg]

36. Wait, wait, wait . . . the *cure* is to push "tort reform!"

.

Wait, wait, wait . . . the *cure* is to push "tort reform!" Of course, blame lawyers! Blame their clients! And most importantly blame the judicial system!

After all, lawyers, their clients, and the judicial system have caused all of this:

"In November 1999, one of the most influential reports in medical history, 'To Err is Human,' called for a drastic reduction in medical mistakes after finding that accidental overdoses, infections and other care-giver errors had become a leading cause of death. With up to 98,000 US patients dying annually, the authors declared, 'it would be irresponsible to expect anything less that a 50 percent reduction in errors over five years.' "
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/health_science/articles/2004/11/09/five_years_later_medical_errors_stilla_leading_killer?pg=full

and also caused this:

"(O)nce in every 15,000 operations in the United States . . . the patient actually goes home without anyone realizing there's a foreign object still inside him. The patient may suffer health problems for years, desperately worrying until an alert physician discovers the object. (In one case a couple of years ago, a woman set off an airport metal detector, only to find that a retractor had been left in her abdomen months before. Last month, a Boston doctor was disciplined for leaving a sponge in a patient in 2002.)"
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2004/12/05/left_behind/

Remember this as the Republicans lead by George Walker Bush screams about "the high cost of medical care" due to lawyers, their clients, and the judicial system!! As well as when George Walker Bush again pushes congress to "reform" bankruptcy laws across America thereby shutting out John Q. Public who merely wants to have the bankruptcy court write off his high healthcare costs.

.

[Disturbed]

37. In the meantime..

the Bush Junta is working on eliminating as much Health Care coverage as possible. If one is making $200K a yr. or more then the Bush Junta gives you a break.

[dbt]

39. Lemme see do I grok this...

When Hillary was working on health care reform better than a decade ago, it was EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVIL for her to be doing so. EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVIL, barked the Pugs and the Press took up the echo.

Flash forward to the Twenty-First Century, where Congress talks about making bankruptcy harder to file. You'd almost think this was a Pincers Movement, worthy of some political Patton.

Yeah, I grok this: more money into fewer hands. Squeeze every last drop of milk out of (shudder!) The Cattle, then slaughter them for Big Macs.

:freak:
dbt

[reprobate]

42. In the case of two legged cattle it's call Soylent Green!

Although McDonalds may turn out to be the biggest producer.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

40. my sister-in-law went bankrupt...triple by-pass and other health problems

she is destitute now and living from house to house of family members...can't even afford to go to doctors, dentist, or meds because she is 59 she doesn't qualify for SS medicare and she applied and was turned down for SSI....no one will hire her NO ONE and she has worked her entire life....it makes me soo soo angry...can't even afford a car to drive herself around to seek help

[GliderGuider]

41. It was like that in Canada until the early '60s

Here's our story:
My mother's family was quite well-to-do. My grandfather had a thriving plumbing business in a time when people were getting rid of outhouses and installing indoor plumbing. Ka-ching!
Then my grandfather got sick. In 1958, the doctors gave him 6 months to live but he hung on for 5 years. They lost everything.
We have a family history of going through what you people are now, but it's HISTORY.
When my Mum had a small stroke, a few years later had congestive heart failure, and my daughter had tests for CF and later for bone cancer (all negative!), and I had CT a scan and an MRI to test for brain cancer (also negative), the cost was borne by everyone in country. My cost is a bearable monthly payroll tax plus a portion of my federal taxes.

Here's how:
"Through careful financial management, the Douglas government slowly paid off the huge debt left by the previous Liberal government, and created a budget surplus for the Saskatchewan government. This paved the way for Douglas's greatest achievement, the introduction of universal medicare legislation in 1961. While Douglas is often described as the "father of medicare" in Canada, the Saskatchewan program was finally launched by his successor, Woodrow Lloyd, in 1962. After seeing the success of the Saskatchewan experiment, Prime Minister Lester Pearson and the other provinces agreed to the creation of a national medicare program in 1967."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Douglas

It was tough slogging, but we did it. Doctors and other powerful groups fought it, but the average person knew that everyone pulling together would make the burden lighter on individual families.

The provincial and federal initiatives to create a programme of socialized medicine was based on Christian beliefs of caring for one another. This is not uniquely Christian, but the people behind it in Canada 45-50 years ago had the courage of their particular religious convictions.

And you can bet your bottom dollar that Mr. Douglas would never put in a programme that he couldn't afford.

What I mean to say is, you guys can do it, too. Maybe even in an atmosphere of hyper religious scariness.

Best of luck.

[grumpy old fart]

43. Thanks, but National Healthcare is unamerican.....

Just ask any repug. If you ain't rich and healthy, well, it's your fault and fuck you. You know, the great "ownership" society envisioned by Chimp and his ilk. "We got ours, and the rest of you can go to hell..." "Compassionate" Conservatism. What a crock of shit.

[GliderGuider]

49. then change it

My personal contact with Americans may not be representative of the whole country. Mostly I've been to upstate NY, VT, MN, NH, Washinton DC, Maryland, VA and once to NC.
But as much as you don't hear about it in the culture you guys export to the rest of the world, my impressions of individual USians is a hard working, caring bunch of people who want to make lives better for their own small communities.
They're just not given the tools to do it with, like good public education and health care that they can afford without holding down three jobs, leaving them too exhausted to do anything else.

Revolution is in the air.
As well as expressing your inner grumpy old fart, channel the energy that many of you are feeling.

[barb162]

86. "channel the energy" We're trying, we're trying, but it isn't

working, is it

[reprobate]

45. The difference, GG, is that you are a nation of caring people.

While we are a nation of imbeciles. As a nation we think it must be everyone for themselves, personal responsibility, and if you can't make it on your own then you're evil, for anyone with the gumshun can make it in America if they just work hard enough.

In other words, a nation divided against itself that cannot stand.

[GliderGuider]

51. Good grief!

We have our share of imbiciles, too, ya know.
You guys have 10 times as many imbiciles 'cause you have 10 times the population. ;)

Your individualism used to be a positive trait. Take that good ol' American pride that got twisted into arrogance and turn it back into pride again.
I know you've all been suffering a lot a defeat lately but the defeatist attitude is painful for us on the outside to watch.

[reprobate]

52. I believe there's a basic difference between Canadians and Americans.

And it has to do with attitudes toward life and fellow humans.

It goes back to the time of the founding of the countries. Like most Americans I'm ignorant of Canada's origins, but I do know that we were in basically the same boat in the late 18th century.

Apparently at the time you chose the 'work from the inside for change' route, while we simply picked up the gun and went ballistic. Were it not for the French and their intent to bloody the British nose we would likely be one nation from New Newfoundland to the Mexican border. Would that be bad? I don't know, but if it resulted in a nation more like present day Canada I wouldn't argue with it.

Our foreign policy has been the same almost from the beginning. For example, in the last century, from 1890 to present, we invaded the nations of central and south America 52 times. That's boots on the ground for more than a week invasions. What other nation has this kind of record?

The same holds true of our treatment of the indigenous peoples of the north American land mass. We seemed to believe that we had some god given right to the land. And death was an appropriate outcome for those who disagreed.

You know, I can remember a time in the 50s when communism was the anti-god evil of the moment. The common knowledge at the time was that those evil communists in china did not value human life like we did. Stepping back slightly it's hard to distinguish the two now.

Having said all that, there are some things that America has had that were admirable. The problem I think is that the paradigm of the lone cowboy taking on the world no longer works. The world now required the cooperation of the peoples of the world, not the modern day Roman Empire telling everyone how it will be.

I think that Bush's political succes has been a reflection of this attitude of too many Americans.

I recently saw an interview with Jeremy Rifkin. His point was that Europe is currently beating the pants off the US economically, and will continue to do so. The problem with Europe, he said, was that it was TOO cooperative, and needed some of the American 'can do' attitude. With that added they would be the leaders of this century. Seems quite possible to me.

I don't mean to sound defeatist. I believe that the pendulum will swing once again and the humane side of humanity will take over. It's sometimes difficult to hold the long term vision when you see everything you worked for being destroyed intentionally. But one thing my six decades have shown me is that 'this too shall pass'.

BTW, am I too assume from your screen name that you are an Air Sailor? Some of my best memories have been of chasing thermals here in Florida. And in Florida we HAVE thermals.

Live long and prosper.

[barb162]

87. we have taken the capitalism thing so far that it is

sociopathic. If we can't make it on own because of sickness or whatever, we are considered lazy, good-for-nothings, etc. That spirit and government in the early 1930s that created jobs, social security, etc., is disappearing fast with the Bush administration. At the same time they are destroying good jobs with good health care, they are telling us to be personally responsible. Sociopaths.

[Danmel]

99. The Greatest Canadian

It is telling to me that Tommy Douglas was voted the "greatest Canadian" in the CBCs poll. Obviously you do not all hate your health care system as much as U.S. media would like our population to believe.

It means something that the availability of health care is viewed by Canadians as the greatest accomplishment of a Canadian. I wish we were more like Canada in many ways, I'd even deal with the weather.

[MissB]

44. 1% of bankruptcies were because of credit card debt. 1%.

Blow that myth right out of the water.

[Supersedeas]

46. Yet, Insurance Reform is not on the table....odd...lets just blame PI

Attorneys for all of it.

[truthpusher]

47. Dupe - sorry

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1204917

[zanana]

48. My bypass surgery cost $75,000 in 1991...

My husband had just had major back surgery when I had to have emergency surgery. We both had to stop working and lost our health insurance. There's no way in the world we could have saved $75,000 plus the cost of his back surgery; we were both 38 at the time. The idea of the medical "bank account" is ludicrous.

[bleedingheart]

54. My daughter's NICU bill was $90,000 dollars

but when she was born 6 years ago, I had 100% coverage in network. Note...she wasn't that premature (34 weeks)...she left in 10 days ...so imagine the bills for those 28 week preemies

Under my healthcare plan today, which I pay MORE for, I would have to shoulder 10% of that bill....$9,000.

...upside down world...I pay more...I get less...and yet at times I appear to be the only one who seems to think this is nuts....

[barb162]

88. usually only the people with experience with the system

understand how fucked it is. I consider it already broken and it has been that way for years. I know too many people who can't even get private plans for every dumbass reason in the world. If you were ever sick any time in your life or have any chronic condition chances are you can't even get a private plan. So amny millions are going bare and all they need is one bad medical situation. And they'll go bankrupt.

[hunter]

55. Only one very small group has any real "safety net" in the United States

These are the people who can still afford to pay their outrageous health insurance premiums even when they can't work. These same people could probably pay all their medical bills without any health insurance at all, but being able to pay a "small" $2000 a month health insurance premium in return for tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars of medical care is one of those nice "perks" of being very wealthy.

If you actually have to work to pay your health insurance premiums, you WILL fall through the cracks if you become seriously ill for any legnth of time. You'll be in bed sicker than you ever imagined you could be, and the collection agents will be calling you at all hours, and your mailbox will be full of threatening mail.

You'll be wondering if it's better to pay your health insurance premium or your mortgage. If you screw up the smallest bit of paperwork -- remember you are very sick, and some of this paperwork is written in extreme legalese -- your health insurance "provider" won't pay your bills.

When (and if) you recover, your search for employment will be limited to employers who have "good" group health plans, because you won't be able to afford individual health care plans because of your "pre-existing" conditions.

Most people in the United States who believe they have good health insurance don't. Most of these people are very surprised when they take their first ride through the health care industry meat grinder.

My wife and I escaped bankruptcy, but we are about $60,000 further in debt than we would have been if the United States had some sort of modern health care system instead of this ragged monster that's been cobbled together out of dead nineteenth century ideologies.

The health care "industry" in the United States SUCKS. The United States does not have "the best" healthcare in the world. Yes, there are a few bright spots here and there, but overall, the system doesn't work. We pay too much for too little. There are many ghouls in the system profiting from our misery.

[barb162]

89. yes, insurer executives make zillions (look at the Frists)

and the medical insurers have taken control of the system over the doctors and patients. And they pay millions to the GOP.

Employers with good group plans are becoming scarce as pensions these days.

[Naipes]

56. It Only Gets Worse With This GOP Plan!

I saw this story: ( http://www.ctnow.com/hc-healthcare0202.artfeb02,0,6485675.story ) in the Hartford Courant today (I hope that link works). This is unconscionable in my opinion.

Couple this "personal responsibility" GOP health plan with the previous story on bankruptcies and you have a recipe for real disaster. Unbelievable, especially in light of the fact that health savings accounts (HSAs) have already been approved! HSAs were slipped in, under the radar, as an appendage to the Medicare prescription bill.

[amazona]

58. my fundy friend's story

My friend was severely injured in an on-the-job injury and told he would never walk again. His rehabilitation was extremely prolonged and meanwhile his workmen's compensation was refusing to pay because there was a dispute about how much care he needed or how long he would live. His recovery required a great many medical X-rays and other radiological procedures. Shortly after he regained the ability to walk and to work, he was diagnosed with Hodgkin's disease, a cancer which may be linked to exposure to radiation. Workmen's comp refused to cover the cancer treatment at all, and his care was supposed to be covered by his regular health insurance provided by his employer.

We all know what that means. Co-pays. The patient has to pay 20 percent and the insurance company pays 80 percent, which sounds great, until you learn that the treatment for Hodgkin's disease costs several hundred thousand dollars.'

All this while my friend could not work. His wife had no qualifications and had a minimum wage no-benefits job for a fundy church, so she was contributing almost nothing to the budget -- and she finally got fired on top of everything else.

Needless to say, my friend had to declare bankruptcy. It was the only way to prevent creditors from seizing their house and putting them out on the street on top of everything else.

And yet they had what is considered pretty good health insurance, between the workmen's comp and the regular health insurance.

The problem is, we ALSO need some sort of dole or guaranteed minimum income when people are going through issues like this. You gotta have a source of income or the bills do not get paid, and severely injured or diseased people can't get income from working. But, because they did have a home, they could not get welfare. They lost everything else as it was -- and this with health insurance.

People without health insurance don't stand a chance.

It's scary. The last time I saw my friend, he was in remission from the cancer, but he was so severely depressed that he was being treated with Prozac. I tried many times to contact him since but never saw him again. While I wish him well, at times I fear the worst.

The "Godly" do not receive any special protection from disease or accident. The story of Job is in the Bible for a reason.

We should all be standing together to demand a strong safety net. God isn't going to do it for us.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[bleedingheart]

61. your friend's story is the norm sadly for those with chronic or

severe illnesses.

My neighbor's daughter came down with brain cancer. She has been on disability even though she technically is in remission and could go back to work...but she is seriously afraid to go back to work until she has cleared the two year mark of remission and because she knows the moment she goes back they will find a reason to fire her since their insurance rates are up due in part to having an employee with cancer.

What a country we live in...

[barb162]

90. and think how many thousands of times a year this kind of

thing is happening across the country. People don't want to think about it becuase it hits too close to home.

I know of a man who fell down the stairs in his own home and broke his neck. In a wheelchair the rest of his life, unable to work, etc. His wife was already working before the accident, but she had to hire a full-time person to stay with her husband or send him to a nursing home. Even with disability and medical insurance, the bills they were incurring were huge. They started draining their savings bigtime. I am sure they declared bankruptcy and lost everything.

[MrsCheaplaugh]

59. Another Canadian checks in

In our system, I pay about $25 per month for medicare because I earn a wage. When I was hit by a car, all I had to do was pull out my card. I never paid anything and I never saw a bill. The problem with Americans is that for all their chest-beating, "we are free" crap, the more your leaders shit on you the happier you are, just like Russians.

Health care is a right, it isn't something you buy. Until you make your senators and congressmen see this, nothing will change.

[shrike]

70. What a great statement

"The more our leaders shit on us, the happier we are."

I'm going to use that from now on.

[barb162]

91. As to your fourth sentence, I think you'll have a difficult time

finding people on DU buying into that. Of course, those of us in DU are in the minority of the USA, aren't we?

[davsand]

60. What percentage of bankruptcies carry a component of medical debt?

I didn't see that info in any of the articles, and that number is even higher. Think about this: They report that medical debt was the major factor in that percentage of filings. How many bankruptcies are filed every year where medical debt is just PART of the issue?

I saw stats three years ago that indicated medical debt was a component in over two thirds of filings. I'm betting that has not decreased any.

Bad as this sounds, it may be even worse.


Laura

[Misskittycat]

62. If the uninsured and underinsured would organize

at a grass roots level, our collective voice would be astounding.

And of course with the new -- under the radar -- Republican plan, most people will become uninsured fairly soon.

I've always thought the uninsured figure of $45 million was a low estimate of the true figure.

And as other posters have pointed out, those with employer-based health insurance currently are one moderate illness away from being out of work and therefore out of health insurance. Without a job, you couldn't pay for private insurance even if you could somehow medically qualify for that coverage. It takes very little to make a person medically uninsurable, including even for the Repub's proposed high-deductible plans.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

67. I just found out

I'm scheduled for an emergency D&C (dilation and curettage) to stop abnormal menstrual bleeding that is causing me to be extremely and dangerously anemic.

With my current employer, our health plan sucks... I'm worried that the cost of this surgery, which is necessary, will eat up a lot of the money I've been able to save since, surprise! surprise!, another surgery and my husband's lay-off.

We are both middle class with an income approaching $100K, which is high in most parts of the country, except for the NYC area where we live. We are both fortunate to have good professional jobs with great employers who understand what we are going through.

It's also very hard for them. My employer is a small law firm and I don't pay 1 cent for my or my husband's coverage (even through the POS health plan we have). Yet my boss pays a lot of money for our premiums and they have gone up tremendously just in the past year.

We have thought about bankruptcy many times but every time we are scared away by the impact it will have on our credit. Every day that goes by, though, bankruptcy looks better and better.

This should not happen in what is supposedly the richest country in the world. This should happen in a third-world country.

Until people start realizing that health care is not a privilege but should be a right for all, more and more people from more and more socio-economic classes will be in this predicament.

I recall my days in Italy when I simply went to the doctor when I wanted, got all my lab work done and never saw a bill. I received excellent and compassionate care and never had to wait in line unreasonably. When an emergency occurred, I or my family was seen promptly without delay.

It's ironic that socialized medicine is ok for Congress, federal employees and the military but not ok for the rest of the people.

[Cinletharwi]

68. My story

I am in need of medical care, and cannot afford the tests/treatments/medicines.

I'm going to have to wait until it's life-threatening and I'm half dead before I'll get a diagnosis and treatment for what keeps my upper abdominal pain going, why I can't keep down food some days, why I get dizzy and confused at times, why the left side of my back burns/hurts. Last time I felt like I was dying I went to the hospital (still get bills/collection agencies harrasing years later, can't afford bankruptcy); after learning I had no insurance and was unemployed, they told me nothing was wrong with me (aside from "elevated 'sed'? rate") and sent me home.

I have also have untreated/undiagnosed psychiatric conditions (depression, socially/work debilitating a majority of days so I only work a few hours a week on "good days") for the past 7 years (PTSD 1998, progressively worse every year), and am losing my teeth from lack of preventive care.

The biggest argument I hear against socialized medicine here in the South is that "you'll die before you get treated because you have to wait years for procedures," and that it costs too much taxes and people will "mooch off it like they do welfare."

I'm waiting years as it is, but for nothing - no hope in sight. I'd gladly pay more taxes and queue for a better quality of health/life; at least then I would have some hope of not suffering daily pain at some point, and not have to be afraid and having panic attacks all the time from not knowing what all is wrong with me.

I need to go bankrupt but can't afford the lawyer. I haven't eaten out in over a year except for the occasional $5 Chinese lunch takeout I get treated to. I don't own a cellphone. I don't have an SUV and my little 1995 truck has a blown head gasket and maybe even cracked head I can't afford to get fixed. When it wasn't broke down I spent about $20 a month on gas because I don't go anywhere to spend money I don't have (plus I don't feel like doing anything most of the time).

My reason for needing to go bankrupt are in part medical bills from emergency room visits to hospital/Dr's who did nothing to help me. They'd gave me pain meds shot and send me on my way because they know they would not get their money with my being unemployed and uninsured. I still got thousands of dollars in bills though for the non-treatments.

In addition to these bills, my brother stuck me with tens of thousands of dollars I guaranteed for him because he needed help getting back on his feet from a bankruptcy. There is no way I can pay this money now, I make no more than about $100 a week - when I can actually work (see beginning of post); by the time I pay my mandatory car insurance and buy a share of the groceries and some misc necessities, that money is gone. My parents pay for internet, don't charge me rent I don't have anyway.

My best friend is on the verge of bankruptcy because he has $15,000 in emergency medical bills after collapsing in Walmart with a seizure (his first). He got laid off but his asshole employer did it in such a way that made it voluntary; his ex-boss fought the unemployment ins. claim, and won because the way he got rid of my friend (told him to take a week off to relax if he needed to, and then to come back - but this made it voluntary leave when ex-boss declined to "take him back" and it was boss' word against his).

He had dental work done; the dentist he went to said yes he'll do a payment plan since my friend is poor and can't afford full payments. The Dr tricked him into a "credit card" deal where the Dr gets his money right away and my friend got a credit card bill for $3000 at 29% APR. His trailer note is nearly $300/mo. My friend makes $175 a week for 6 days work, the only steady job he's found in over a year in Natchez, MS. He can't afford to actually go bankrupt(lawyer) either, so he's just ignoring all bills except his trailer and food, since that's literally all he can barely afford.

It's just getting harder to survive here. So, not everyone uses bankruptcy as a business and shopping strategy; it's the only way to get the bill collectors to stop psychologically tormenting and threatening you on a daily basis.

The problem with these people (the anti-universal-health folks) is that they view everything outside their own homes and lives through a political, prejudiced, and platitudinal lens, or to put it bluntly, through the ignorance of personal inexperience. Their "positions," especially about health care and other human needs, are idealistic, abstract, and leave no room for real human experience, let alone human suffering; there are only positions, or this "values" horseshit. Thus, there is no compassion in their politics and positions. "God bless America, and no place else!" More like: 'God bless the insured I don't have to pay taxes for, and let their Darwin sort the rest out.'

Wait until their child, or their parents, or they are suffering from something that could be alleviated if only their neighbors (who vote for those who make policy) cared for the wellbeing of them and their family as much as they do for themselves and theirs. Granted, this requires thinking and feeling in a manner other than your black-and-white "I got mine and worked hard for it, fuck the rest of you undeserving low-lifers."

Personally, I'm pessimistic of this degree of ignorance and inhumanity ever abating, especially when ignorance and inhumanity are encouraged "values" today. Rather than caring for neighbors, people hide from them and complain about them; they come home from work, shut the door and close the blinds to the reality of the world outside.

There is no heart and community left in this country: Profit comes before human health, wellbeing, and happiness; building prisons comes before building education, intelligence, and futures; and "values" are more important than honestly facing the human condition and where it suffers. Our "system" and way of life here is corrupt, and itself bankrupt, if it cannot - and especially if it will not - take care of our entire society.

This is not a political issue; it is the human condition which affects us all. Discussing human needs and suffering from an idealistic/conceptual political position is sick and sadistic, and serves only to ignore the reality of it, and those who would be victims of political positions and platitudes.

People arguing against universal health don't realize.. a country is only as healthy and "good" as it treats its citizens in need.

Also, I think that if health care were universal, it would cost less because there would be more preventive and maintenance care for people, lessening the impact of their medical needs later on when they get older because they are more healthy. I am unproductive at 27 years old because I can't afford the care I need to get better mentally and physically. I would be dead by now if I did not have parents who said come back home.

The health of a human being should not have a price tag of profit on it. That half of all bankruptcies in this country are a result of outstanding medical bills is a testament to this.

Here at home it's even getting harder to get care out of friends and those who know each other, let alone the rest of society. Everyone I know (save best friend) are utterly oblivious even when seeing plight face to face.

My best friend for example, who I wrote above is barely hanging on by a single thread. The rest of our group of friends comes over, drinks his drink, eats his eats (or bring their own now that he doesn't keep much in the house), plays poker, smokes his smoke (medicinally necessary for him as food itself - seizures and ulcers, can't afford the pharm drugs), and just enjoys his place, but not a single one of them has offered to help him out over the past year being on the brink of homelessness and starvation. Not even his own brother would help him out with a few $ for food (but makes enough to go buy two jet skies, a street bike, truck, etc etc in this year, so 'he got his').

My friend is not the type to ask for help (a "value" ingrained in this society it seems - it's 'wrong' or shameful to ask for help withthe expectation of receiving it), but personally I feel one shouldn't have to ask if need and suffering are evident. Our friends all say, "man that's gotta suck," shrug, then change the subject to the irrelevant (to anything). I had been saving what little money I could for about 6 months and managed $300 to help him keep his home; that's money "I don't have' and could most certainly have used to get the hell out of here for one, or some medical tests for another. But I couldn't watch my best friend become homeless if I could help it, and that's the way it should be - else what's the farking point of anything we do in this world?

There is not even the pretension of care for others in this country anymore, at least not beyond the empty platitudes. We are so normalized to apathy and oblivion that we don't have the capacity to imagine and aspire to a better way of life. For the several years I've been back home now, with all the problems mental and physical I have, the night-insomnia and daytime-narcolepsy, the debilitating depression - all of it - not once has my parents, whom I live in the same house with, suggested even the need for my getting some sort of help. This is just one example of how oblivious people are here today, willful ignorance and preference for the solace of delusion that things are better than they truly are.

Our society today is a slow-motion trainwreck.

[MissB]

76. Your post is well written and well thought out

And I'm sorry that my measly reply doesn't do it justice.

You are absolutely right about our society and its ills. Absolutely right.

[Corgigal]

78. I'm so sorry about all the messed up

crap you have to put up with in your daily life. I have a question, almost funny/stupid these days, have you looked into any type of legal aid? Yeah, they are almost impossible to find but if you qualify that would be a good deal off your shoulders if you could file bankruptcy.

I wish you good luck. Let me know how it goes.

[truthpusher]

85. a country is only as healthy and "good" as it treats its citizens...

...thanks for that and thanks for the great post - I sincerely hope all is well for you from here on out.

[barb162]

92. God bless you, every damned thing you said is so on track

with what has been and is happening in this country. I personally know of several friends who are hurt at work and the employer finds a way out of Work Comp payments and fires the person. They can't get another job and they soon are on the downward spiral. I know a guy who fell at work, shattered his shoulder and his boss got out of paying the Work Comp through the same method as your friend's boss. This guy is unemployed now for about five years with a permanently screwed up left arm, he is 45 and I know no one will ever hire him. He is on high dose oxycontin daily to deal with his terrible pain. His wife can barely support the two of them.

The standard inbred and ingrained line that many people believe is that national health care will mean months of waiting to see a MD. and that it will be terribly expensive. I know it is total bullshit but it is astounding how many people believe this. The wife above who can barely support herself and her husband believes it.

This country is being run by selfish sociopaths and I doubt that we can change these attitudes. Most of the people in this country IMHO are plainly damned ignorant, stupid and unaware and they believe the lies of the sociopaths telling them that a national health care system will be too expensive.

I think we are in for a fast trainwreck

[BiggJawn]

72. Oh, no, this can't BE!!!

Any Person of Sense knows that the reason the bourgeois tries to file bancruptcy is their inability to stop buying toys when they run out of money.

That's why Bancruptcy Law needs to be "reformed", so the Finance Industry can go after these Good-Time Charlies who think they can party hearty and just walk away from the bills...
<sarcasm>

My ex-wife was put into bancruptcy by un-insured medical bills for her kids. Sure, she was the Queen of the Dollar Store and Walmart sent her a Xmas card every year, but the re-hab bills that her ex disavowed are what did her in.

A house that I wasn't using 100 miles away that wouldn't sell is what killed me.

But yet we hear all the time how it's those Aruba trips all put on the Capital One card that's torpedoing people....

[CornField]

75. Yes, that is what has led us to this place

Ironically, we also have insurance through an employer. The deductibles and the co-pays have left us with thousands of dollars in medical bills. To make matters worse, we gave into the pressure of hospitals and collection agencies and paid off some of the bills using our credit cards. (Very stupid, stupid thing to do...)

We visited with an attorney just last week to discuss filing bankruptcy. It looks as if we will be able to do a Chapter 7. Our debts are over 80% medical related.

[Corgigal]

79. I have a short story

nothing critical but it shows how even small medical problems are stacked against us.

I have purchased private medical plans for my kids. I have two children with coverage from BC/BS at 84.00 dollars a month each with no prescriptions coverage. The kids are aged 12 and 14 and no background illnesses.

14 year old broke her hand. When to the Primary Care doc because we really didn't know if it was broken or sprained. X-rays , blah , blah..broken hand. 20.00 dollars out of pocket everything covered.

Next day appt with an Ortho Doc. Pops something back in place..bill 850 dollars for this one appt. BC/BS sends me two giant forms wanting to know how she broke her hand. Filled it out twice. Another bill for 850 dollars comes in, 2nd request. Finally after calling BC/BS they pay 75.00 bucks but take a few hundred off the bill because of the contract between Ortho Doc and them. I get a new bill for 300.00 bucks. So I paid it and I still can't figure out what the hell happened. I paid it to get rid of the doc's office and the nasty grams. Yeah I looked at the coverage book, like that helps.

That's a minor incident. God bless you guys with major medical problems.

[flaminbats]

80. a story from a relative, who uses an insulin pump..

imagine paying $200 a week to inject one bottle of insulin with a pump needle just to stay alive. Diabetics can go to prison for buying this insulin from Canada at $60 a bottle, but Doctors can't be sued for refusing to prescribe anything cheaper..God bless America!!

:argh:

[barb162]

93. Can you tell us why the relative is using a pump when the

other way (old way) is so much cheaper? I bet this person could go to maybe 20 bucks a week without a pump with just the needles and insulin injecting themselves. My husband injects himself and wont use the pump because of the outrageous cost.

[flaminbats]

96. slightly higher bloodsuger averages can result in kidney disease,blindness

my relative agrees the old way is cheaper, but it resulted higher costs because of complications, more insulin reactions, and less flexibility at work. the pump isn't that expensive to produce, and many diabetics now use the more affordable..syrange type of regular insulin in the pump. Unfortunately many Doctors refuse to write prescriptions for this!

Whether a diabetic uses the pump or syringes I believe they all would benefit from national healthcare and a collective bargaining system similar to Canada's. I think even your husband would agree that diabetics, those with Cancer, those suffering from all destructive medical problems, and those who love them must join a united front to be fairly treated in our economy.

[barb162]

97. Oh absolutely, I have ben an advocate of national

health insurance for many years, way before H. Clinton tried doing something about the mess.

[Xenotime]

82. And what else?

Get ready to add Social Security after this administration gets done with it. You won't be able to pay your bills after you retire.

[BamaGirl]

94. Our story seems mild in comparison

One of our daughters had surgery on her hand and our insurance wouldn't cover it. We went round and round with these idiots, but they insisted it was cosmetic and not covered. We set up a payment plan. Two years later, though, we had another baby, found out about him shortly after we lost our insurance and were just over the assistance level. It costs $15,000 to have a baby (delievered by c/s) by the way. During that time we were paying for any treatment our girls need out of pocket, and one of them has asthma. What do you pay? Medical care or your mortgage or your car payment or what? It was a nightmare. Since we had just got out of the Army, without a job locally, we had moved home and were staying with my parents. We rented our house out here to someone who never bothered to pay rent. It cost us a small fortune to get her evicted since we were back and forth dealing with court, etc. After my husband got a job offer here we moved back, quit trying to deal with hospitals and doctors and labs and just filed bankruptcy. The thing that still makes me mad about it is that we had new insurance about a month after my son was born. If we had been insured during the pregnancy and for delivery we would have been ok. Then. We still have the same policy but with the increase in premiums, deductibles, and co-pays, I don't see how anyone can afford it. Asthma meds and doctors visits are killing us as it is. It makes me so angry to live in such a wealthy country but to sometimes find myself picking which bill to pay late so I can get my daughter's meds.

[truthpusher]

98. kick

[Coastie for Truth]

101. Earlier discussion

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3048301