Chechens 'vow Beslan-type attacks'

[bemildred]

Russian gov't is apparently frothing at the mouth over this interview.

LONDON, England (AP) -- Chechen warlord Shamil Basayev, who claimed responsibility for last year's brutal terrorist attack on a Russian school, was quoted as saying Thursday that the separatist rebels are planning more such operations.

In an interview with Channel 4 News to be broadcast Thursday night, part of which was quoted in Thursday's Times of London newspaper, Basayev expressed regret for the hundreds of deaths in the June hostage-taking attack on the school in the Russian town of Beslan.

But he blamed some of the deaths on flame-throwers used by Russian special forces who attacked the school to end the siege. He said that action, not explosives set by the hostage-takers, had caused the roof of the school gym to collapse.

"We are planning more Beslan-type operations in the future because we are forced to do so," the Times quoted Basayev as saying.

Corporate News Network

[PROGRESSIVE1]

1. These are REAL TERRORISTS!

...and they should be taken out!

[HuckleB]

2. They're doing unto Putin as Putin has done unto them.

They are "real terrorists," but they're not alone. The Russians have been terrorizing Chechnya for 200 plus years.

[Igel]

4. They've been going at each other for far longer than than. n/t

[HuckleB]

6. Sort of... yes.

However, the history going back to the 18th century and beyond is quite different than the history since that time.

[Igel]

27. Yeah, before the 18th century it was mostly Chechens

raiding Slavic settlements, and Slavs mounting counter-raids. Actually, after that it was largely Chechens raiding Slavic settlements and Slavs mounting counter-raids, but the Slavs thought by just taking over and pacifying the area they'd change the situation. Tolstoy's Shamil fought less for independence than for booty and fame (with a bit of Muslim solidarity thrown in).

I guess before that it was Slavs moving into Chechen grazing lands, but that's just a guess. Before that it was Sarmatians (hence the Ossetians).

And before that the Scythians. Assuming the Chechens have actually been there that long. Some Caucasian speakers were there when the Sarmatians went through, for sure.

[HuckleB]

28. Thanks for offering up your imagined version of history.

Is there a Russian propaganda group at DU?

[Igel]

31. Sorry, but it's not always a case of poor oppressed non-Indo-

Europeans vs. the Other. That's so '60s.

Slavs got there long after the Sarmatians in the N. Caucasus were reduced to the Ossetians; their language has heavy Caucasian influence.

And the southern frontier was a mess for the Slavs for a century or two. Then there was the little problem of the Horde. By which time the Slavs had no doubt gotten near the Caucasus.

Numerous accounts in the Chronicles--mostly the Kievans griping about lost revenue and food--about numerous villages being sacked, sometimes lots taken hostage. The Arabs were responsible for a lot of it. But not all of it.

The problem is there's no way to tell who raided who first. Much less satisfying than saying the evil Russians started it, though.

[HuckleB]

32. It appears that you are backing away from your first post.

Hmm. I wonder why? Could it be because your first post was pure fiction, as I stated?

The only thing "so '60s" is something in your mind, not in what I posted.

[candle_bright]

10. They aren't doing this to Putin

they are targeting innocent children.

Yeah, it affects Putin, but he's not the one being held hostage and murdered.

[HuckleB]

11. Yes, I know.

The point is that Putin is a terrorist, too. His troops have killed children, the elderly and thousands of other innocents in a manner that can only be described as terrorism.

[makhno]

13. Eye for an eye

That's a sure road to peace, just look at the Israel-Palestine conflict.

[HuckleB]

14. I'm not saying it's right.

I'm just not letting Putin off the hook.

[makhno]

5. No, these are FREEDOM FIGHTERS

Don't you know it ain't terror unless it's Westerners doing the dying.

[HuckleB]

3. That's not all that Russia is frothing about...

Asylum decision suggests that US patience with Putin is wearing thin

http://www.chechentimes.org/en/press/?id=25839

"When the US granted political asylum to Alyona Morozov last month, it gave no explanation for its decision. But the reason is not hard to discern. Ms Morozov accused Russia’s secret services of involvement in a series of apartment block bombings in Moscow and elsewhere in September 1999 which killed 246 people. Making such an allegation is potentially harmful to health.

Chechen separatists were officially blamed for the attacks. They led to the launch by Vladimir Putin, then Russia’s prime minister, of the second Chechen war. Mr Putin’s tough response impressed voters. He won the presidency the following March.

Ms Morozov, aged 28, whose mother was killed in their Moscow apartment, demanded an international investigation. She suspects that the FSB, successor to the KGB, masterminded the bombings to boost support for Mr Putin, himself a former KGB agent.

Mr Putin has denied any official involvement. "It is immoral even to consider such a possibility," he said. But Ms Morozov is not alone in her suspicions.

..."

[makhno]

7. Immoral, eh

Whenever a politician suggests that a question is too immoral to even be raised, chances are the question is pretty damn valid. There has been a few strange deaths among people pushing for answers on the apartment bombings - the Novaia Gazeta editor comes to mind.

[HuckleB]

8. Chechnya: Human Rights Activists Say Police Involved In Abductions

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2005/02/65f9795b-ae09-4a93-897b-7bc52adb9380.html

[makhno]

12. What RFE/RL conveniently forgets to mention ...

... is that it is now a blood feud between the Kadyrov and the Maskhadov clans. Security forces would be more accurately described in this situation as fighters of the currently dominant clan, avenging, among others, the death of their leader in last year's bombing.

It is also amusing to see a human rights hack lament Western silence about the humanitarian situation in Chechnya. Well, we didn't see the West express much concern about lawlessness when Russia didn't run the republic, and where was he then?

Perhaps I'm expecting too much from a government propaganda news source.

[HuckleB]

15. When Russia didn't run the Republic.

You mean after Russia destroyed the infrastructure in the "first Chechnya war" and killed tens of thousands of working age folks, while driving the majority of skilled and professional Chechnyans overseas?

Actually, the human rights orgs. did have plenty to say during this time. Of course, none of them asked Russia to pay for the damage they'd done to Chechnya so that a working society could be possible, in the first place.

Also, it must be noted that FSB agents are being implicated in many kidnappings in the area, as well.

[makhno]

16. No, actually

No, I mean the time before the first war, during the brief but brutal period of independence.

[HuckleB]

17. You mean when life was similar to all breakaway Soviet Republics?

Not to mention Russia itself?

[makhno]

18. Huh?

Kidnappings, killings, clan violence and ethnic cleansing rank a bit higher on my index of lawlessness than corruption and crime in a state that has at least maintained a functioning central government and some civil order. Chechnya was in a league by itself when it came to a "state" actually being run as a criminal enterprise.

But let me not cloud your Ichkerian fantasies with reality.

[HuckleB]

19. Whatever you say.

Speaking of fantasy. Your last post is full of it.

Ah, but spreading Russian propaganda is of the highest order, no?

[makhno]

20. Propaganda

Propaganda is the one thing you seem to be quite qualified to comment on. But let's get back to your post, you didn't really try to argue that the situation in Chechnya in the '91-94 timeframe was somehow comparable to the situation in the majority of the FSU republics or even independent republics in Russia proper?

[HuckleB]

21. I didn't ?

Oh, ok. I guess I'll ignore what was going on in all of those Republics and in Russia proper during that time and pretend it was all hunky dory. On top of that, I'll pretend that massive ethnic cleansing and lawlessness was occurring in Chechnya at that time, by comparison. Ok? Is that what you want? Sorry, but I don't buy the Russian propaganda you are offering (I know it all too well), partly because I spent time in the Caucasus and Russia proper in the early '90s (for starters).

I have no hate for Russia, though you seem to need to push that particular piece of propaganda into the thread in order to justify the propaganda you are spreading here.

You'll excuse me, but I've been privy to this propaganda before.

(I won't bother responding again unless you can come down from the fictional mountain where you sit.)

[makhno]

22. Please correct me if I'm wrong

It is a fact that the numbers of Russians living in Chechnya were significantly reduced during the independence period. It is also a fact that crime - primarily drug and weapon smuggling - were the main engine of the Chechen economy at the time. Hence ethnic cleansing and the reference to a criminal state.

Now, did Dudayev make overtures to Russia in order to establish a working relationship? Did Yeltsin reject the idea of a reappraisal of Chechnya's status within the Russian Federation at the time, thereby contributing to the decade of conflict that followed? Were top Russian officials such as Grachev involved in the criminal activities in Chechnya during the independence period? The answer to all of these is "yes." That, however, doesn't change the fact that Chechnya at the time was a shithole and comparing life there to life in say, Tatarstan, is preposterous.

Fortunately, some of us don't see the world in quite the black and white terms you propose.

[HuckleB]

23. You're interesting, I'll give you that. Uh, sort of.

The Russians that moved out, moved out on their own. There were no nightly gangs rustling them out and sending them away. No burning houses and rapes and off-hand murder, as was done to Chechens by Russian troops in the years that followed. And it was not a reduction for the working classes, by any means. It was the professionals who chose to leave, because power was no longer in their hands. They could no longer look upon Chechens as second class citizens. Those who couldn't leave because of fiscal inability were not forced out, as one would expect under your scenario of ethnic cleansing. Further, drug and weapons smuggling was not a huge part of the economy at this time -- certainly no more than in many other Republics, nevermind within Russia itself, where a large amount of economic activity occurred via the black market (some of which was supplied, yes, via under-the-table trade with the Caucasus and other former Republics). Remember, the economies of the former Soviet Republics were all in free fall, at this time. Not just Chechnya. Yes, arms and drugs (somewhat) became primary economic sources after Yeltsin's war, when the infrastructure was gone. But it seems that the full reality means nothing to you. I guess you want a justification for Yeltsin's war and all that's followed? Whatever.

Now, you try to speak of black and white, and paint me with that cliche, yet it is you who is painting a black and white Russian propaganda picture of Chechnya. And it is you who is painting a black and white Russian propaganda picture of the rest of the Caucasus, of Russia itself at the time. Heck, you don't even acknowledge that Chechens who had spent their entire lives in Moscow were treated far worset during that time than any Russian in Chechnya. They feared for their lives and stayed home most of the time. They returned to Chechnya because they had no prospects for any sort of life in Russia. Nevermind that they were never treated as equals during the Soviet days, in the first place. You don't acknowledge the fighting that went on Georgia at the time, etc... etc... etc... No one is going to say the Dudayev was capable of the leadership he worked to thrust upon himself. It is clear that he was not good for Chechnya. However, his leadership was quite grand in comparison to Yeltsin and the results of his decision to attack and destroy what remained.

You'll excuse me if I actually see the multitudes of the shades of this picture while I have seen you offer nothing but bad Russian fiction.

[makhno]

29. Truth is quite flexible, I see

The moved out on their own argument seems to appear whenever one attempts to defend violence directed against a minority ethnic or religious group. I've certainly heard it before, in reference to anything from American Indians to Soviet Jews to present day Yugoslavia.

It's really quite simple. When life becomes intolerable - no work, tension with your neighbors, discrimination in the public institutions, sporadic, spontaneous violence - those who have the means or family elsewhere, leave. Those without means have to endure years of being treated as second-class citizens in a society that views them as outsiders. I think you'd agree that one doesn't necessarily need to round people up at gunpoint in order to force the emigration of large swaths of the population.

As for Chechens living in Moscow returning to Chechnya in anything but anecdotal numbers, please be serious. Even given the racism prevalent in Russia and the traditional perception (going back to the Soviet days) of "persons of Caucasian origin" as criminals, life and business in Moscow certainly seem to be very attractive to the hundreds of thousands of Chechens there. You said you traveled to Russia, so you know exactly what I'm talking about.

I appreciate your passion and interest in the issue, but I must point out that your accusations of one-sidedness sound very hollow given the obvious subjectivity of your own point of view. Please keep in mind that the people at the receiving end of Ichkeria's romantic struggle for national liberation aren't just Russians, but real, live human beings as well.

[HuckleB]

33. Your propaganda is quite flexible.

You've overstated the reality with flip phrases that do not match reality. And then you minimize the reality of the treatment of Chechens.

How very telling.

[HuckleB]

9. Putin aide rebukes Beslan parents over protests

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L01103288.htm

[muriel_volestrangler]

24. No comments from Russia FSB on reports about Basayev’s death

Russia’s Federal Security Service (FSB) and Chechnya’s Interior Ministry decline comment on reports from Abkhazia about the death of Chechen terrorist Basayev. “We have no comment on this information”, the spokesman for the public relations centre of Russia’s FSB told Tass.

Chechnya’s Interior Ministry does not comment on reports about Basayev’s death either. According to Abkhazian sources, “he died in January of this year in shutouts with foreign mercenaries in Chechnya’s Gudermes district”. “Comments from us will come when there is Basayev’s dead body”, a spokesman for Chechnya’s Interior Ministry told Tass by phone from Grozny. He recalled that over the past seven years there had been at least ten reports that Chechnya’s terrorist number one was dead. All these reports later proved false.

http://www.tass.ru/eng/level2.html?NewsID=1709803&PageNum=0

[bemildred]

30. I guess this means he still not dead. nt

[muriel_volestrangler]

25. Basayev appears to be an extremist creationist

On the video just shown on UK Channel 4 News, he described his fight as "a fight of the descendants of monkeys, which your Darwin wrote about, against the true descendants of Adam and Eve".

I hate him already.

[HuckleB]

26. I hate him too.

But Putin is no better.