EU Lawmakers Want Communist Symbols Banned

[Postmanx]

Fox News (fair warning for those of you who get all freaked out by FN

The group from Estonia, Lithuania, Slovakia, Hungary and the Czech Republic said the communist symbols should be included in any ban because of the suffering caused by Soviet-backed regimes in eastern Europe.

"We would like to have an equal treatment of the other evil totalitarian regime of the communist system," said Jozsef Szajer, an Hungarian member of the European Parliament.

EU Justice and Home Affairs Commissioner Franco Frattini has proposed a Europe-wide ban on display of the swastikas and other Nazi symbols as part of a campaign to combat anti-Semitism and intolerance.

"If we decide to ban one, we should decide to ban all of them," said Jan Zahradil, a Czech member of the EU assembly.

[davidinalameda]

1. why not just ban all potential symbols

and get it over with

[cestpaspossible]

3. Agreed, just outlaw thinking and expression, problem solved.

[neweurope]

2. I wish they'd stayed out of EU...

and Poland!

------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[Spacejet]

6. Yup

If the EU has Turkey join then it will bring the whole thing down.

They are making the same mistake we did with the south. Bringing multiple regions together under one government with VERY different political and social ideas is only asking for trouble...

They should have made them EEA and left it at that. Not full EU membership.

Even Poland is not on the same political page as the nations around it.

[HuckleB]

4. This is one side of the EU that I'm not comfortable with.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

28. Let's generalize the concept

Countries that have less than perfect freedom of expression.

I never liked this "Nazi memorabilia ban" thing. Now we see the start of the slippery slope this is.

Maybe THAT is those representatives' point. Maybe what they really want is more freedom, not less. I'd go for that.

[sweetheart]

5. They're still thinking like soviet satellites

You don't ban such symbols, you make a new life and a new symbol that
makes the old ones unmemorable. As all these nations are still
learning what the EU is all about, it'll take some time 'til they
sort out what freedom of speech and expression is. Its just a bleedin'
star, a cycle and hammer, a fist, the colour red? Why not just put
up a pretty EU flag and let the past be past. I've got a lovely EU
flag hanging in the corner of this room, draped from a staff, and it's
a lovely symbol. Focus on beauty, the present, and let the past die.

[Mystified]

7. In that case

I'm guessing you oppose the groups that want Southern states to remove the Confederate Flag? Do you disagree with the swastika ban? Apparently the people who actually lived under communist rule in the Eastern Bloc countries find Communist symbols just as offensive as blacks do the Confederate flag or Jews do the swastika. How is this any different?

[Postmanx]

8. I would argue that it is not any different

Though I don't believe in a Confederate or Nazi flag ban either.

[davidinalameda]

9. last time I looked

there wasn't any move to completely ban the Confederate flag

but I sure don't want it flying over my state capital, if I lived in one of those states, like I have in the past

[TR Fan]

10. Exactly...

Germany already bans Nazi symbols, is attempting to ban (again) a neo-Nazi party, and is pushing for similar EU-wide bans. Most people understand, given German history, these attitudes.

Communism has been responsible for the slaughter of many, many more people in history than any other -ism to date. The peoples of Eastern Europe, who suffered for 50 years under the Soviet/Communist yoke have every right to demand the same consideration.

[manic expression]

12. It's no different at all

That was the point that the poster was making.

In my opinion, it is foolish to ban such items. It is best to accept them as the past, to remember what they stood (and stand) for, and to know what one stands for.

However, flying the a symbol of oppression, such as the confederate flag, over a governmental building, is wrong. Also, although I am against banning such symbols, I would vehemently disagree and (idealistically) oppose with anyone who chooses to display them in a positive light.

[Heddi]

16. Completely Agree

Also, just because you ban a symbol doesn't mean that you're necessarily squashing any feelings that people may have who are fond of that symbol....

..okay that didn't make any sense. I'll try it this way:

I am from South Carolina. Born and Raised in Charleston for the first 25 years of my life. There are confederate flags everywhere---cars, buildings, shirts, hats.

Now, of course, not every person who displays a Confederate flag is a racist (I do know MANY People who just aren't.....smart enough to equate Civil War with Oppression of Blacks. They really really do view it as a symbol of their Southern Heritage, and don't ascribe any racist views to it).

HOWEVER---there are quite a few people who ARE racist and who DO display the Confederate Flag.

If you ban the flag, you're not removing their racial hatred. All they'll do is:

1) Continue to fly the flag in objection

and/or

2) Create a new flag or symbol to visually represent their hate.

The same with NeoNazi's. There are plenty of them (in the US) who don't associate with the swastika at all. They have created new banners and signs and symbols to represent their hateful views. THe hate is still there even though it's being represented by a different symbol.

When I left SC, there was still much debate about the Conf. Flag being flown on the State House Dome. I'm completely opposed to the flag being flown in any manner that suggests it's supported by, or that it represents the Government---because the government is of the people, by the people, and for the people. Therefore, flying the flag on the Statehouse (or on any Gov't owned land) is saying in a de-facto way that The People OF South Carolina (not just the Government) agree with this flag, what it stands for, and what it stood for.

But I don't see how "Banning" a symbol, a flag, an idea serves any purpose. You're not doing anything to remove the message behind the flag or symbol, you're just forcing those who subscribe to those ideals to come up with a new symbol or a new flag.

I like that I'm able to recognize a Neo-Nazi or a racist up front, without wondering "gee, what's that pretty little flag stand for?"

[Mystified]

17. I agree

But if they're (the EU) going to ban symbols because they are offensive to large groups of people, they should be consistent.

[Zenlitened]

23. The difference involves a state government as opposed to an individual.

Working to end government sanction of a hateful symbol is very different than calling for a ban on individual people displaying a hateful symbol. The latter is a free speech issue, I agree, however noxious the speech may be. The government display is something else entirely.

[sweetheart]

29. I believe in freedom of choice, speech and expression

These symbols are just paint and colours... and nowhere am i talking
about government's endorsing the symbol. If you are talking about having
state bodies flying such symbols, then i might agree to a ban, but with
private indiviuals, we must accept that our freedom of expression, is
beyond the history of such things.

THe issue is not the symbol, but whether we fought for freedom of
individual expression, or state represssion. If the former is the case,
then let people be, and accept that there will always be nutters. As
well, there will be attempts at humour, such as "the producers", a
very funny film. Were the soviet imagery banned, a whole plethora of
films that portray the symbol would be banned as well... and we're on
the boundary here of a frikking book burning.

I notice some low count posters in this thread advocating exactly that.
Seems the very principals these symbols once stood for are not as buried
in history as one might have hoped. In that case, lets bury the
principals and focus less on the symbols.

[Mystified]

30. As do I

However, Germany has banned the swastika. Walk around Berlin and do a Nazi salute. See if they respect your freedom of expression. Now the entire EU is considering banning the swastika as well. My point is simply that if you're going to ban the swastika because it is offensive to a large number of people, shouldn't the same consideration be given to Communist symbols that are equally offensive to large numbers of people?

[sweetheart]

31. And is that an EU wide ban?

I'm hitched to a german and am more than aware of the german laws
an protocol in this regard. Denial of the holocaust will get you prison
time. This does not mean that someone in scotland should be following
the same ban, a country that was never occupied... and though certainly
it would be in bad taste, same same with southern california for that
matter.... so an EU wide ban is absurd and simply unworkable.

The former communist states can ban the symbols on their own soil and
ain't that great. I've a soviet-era naval dress sword in the closet
with a red-star emblazoned upon it, and i'll be damned if i'm gonna
toss my sword in to the drink, cuz a bunch of nationa 1000 miles away
have issues with their pasts. The sword is, to me, a reminder of the
cold war, for which i've spent hundreds of thousands in taxes on and
"fear" for an invisible boogyman threat... and it is the only substance
i can touch, that suggests that the threat was real AT ALL.... and just
as i want to feel like all those ameircan taxes were not wasted, i want
to keep my silly stupid dagger with a red star, just to remember the
asshole republicans made the cold war too... and what a waste it all
was.

Why don't you ban the american flag. Many american indian descendents
of the massacres are offended by it. Many japanese poeple who are
descendents of the hiroshima and nagasaki and tokyo-fire-bombings
are offended by it... this sort of logic has no end, except to stop
with the book burning in the present and focus on preserving civil
liberties.

[TR Fan]

32. Well, not yet, but they're pushing for it

In answer to your question, excerpt from the above referenced article:

<snip>

EU Justice and Home Affairs Commissioner Franco Frattini (search) has proposed a Europe-wide ban on display of the swastikas and other Nazi symbols as part of a campaign to combat anti-Semitism and intolerance.

<snip>

As regards to your spending tax monies for "an invisible boogyman" you've obviously never had to live under foreign-imposed communism, had relatives murdered by Russian thugs in order to take their property, had your entire future dictated to you by "central planners" or, I think, your opinion might be quite different.

Containment is a great policy if you're on the right side of the containing wall.

[sweetheart]

68. All such thinking will do, is drive states out of the EU

Don't sit there 1000 miles away from the country where i live, and
tell me what i can and cannot display as a symbol. All you will do,
no matter whether i myself won't seek to oppose such wrong headed symbols,
is drive those who want "freedom and liberty", self governance at home,
and the right of freedom of speech dictated by my own government, not
the centrallized federal administration in bruxelles.

What these people really are, are right wing fools, who are out to
achieve what UKIP cannot, that is to drive europe apart by insisting
on legislating silly symbolic things, and by doing so, reenforcing
the very totalitarian instinct they think they are eliminating.

If the bruxelles crowd are sooo foolish as to start burning symbols,
no matter what they are in the name of evil imperial dictatorships,
almost every nation in europe is gonna have to change its flag. The
french tricolour was used by napoleon on his nasty campaigns. THe
british flag, depending on your historical period, of lions coer,
the union jack, or whatever shield, has presided over some horrible
genocidal actions... and should be banned as well. Hmmm... where shall
we stop? How about the christian cross, presided over evil nasty
genocides... bann it. Then there's the jewish star, genocide in
palestine... bann it.... and prestty soon the silly people will
create such an ugly form of symbol banning totalitarianism, that the
red star will be unmemorable.

I recognize the terrible tyrranny that went on under the soviet occupation
of eastern europe. One need only spend time in several of those
nations, which i have, and wholly respect their right to ban the
symbol that may be deeply offensive to their own peoples who lived
under it... and that is their right under EU laws. TO push this
across to the rest of the EU is just being ignorant of how diverse
the EU is. It is not the USA under 1 flag, but a cluster of
postimperial nations many themselves once great powers, and all with
their own closet of skeletons under a national flag... that for better
or for worse is just a bleedin symbol... and its time to get over
Political correctness for some maturity.

The problem in the east is poverty and lack of opportunity, not
flags. With jobs, wealth, rights and healthy living standards, all
history can be forgotten with goodwill.

The justice and home affairs minister is part of that bonkers italian
government of the criminal burlusconi who should be in prison for his
tampering and rotting-out of the italian political system... its no
suprise that such an idiot, good friend of bush, to push for something
stupid and draconian. I'm sure cooler heads in northern europe will
send the childish schmuch back to italy with an education in what
diversity europe is made of.

[Mystified]

62. Again, I agree with you

I don't think banning symbols accomplishes anything. Better that those symbols are visible to remind people what has happened to ensure that it does not happen again. I'm not advocating swastika or hammer & sickle billboards, but at the same time I don't think these items should be erased from the public consciousness. However, if the EU decides they want a Union-wide ban on the swastika, then the former Eastern Bloc states have a legitimate argument to support a Union-wide ban on the hammer & sickle as well.

[Pachamama]

11. How about banning "W"? That would be a start....

Every time I see some Repuke waving the "W" signs or see it on the back of some SUV, I just want to scream....It is a swastika to me....

[Mystified]

18. That's a ban I could get behind!

We should petition the EU. :)

[Flagg]

13. The French communist party who has twenty deputes in the National Assembly

is gonna be pissed.

[telamachus]

14. Another example of Socialist BS

I hate communism but I hate the intolerance that spews from socialist EU nations almost as much. WE all know that communism has been pr oven a failure but hopefully we will all someday see socialist EU policy for what it is...out-of-control government control of everyones lives. Before I get a stupid reply take a look at some of the limits that are put on the lives of EU members: limited speech(no free speech), religious symbols in France (I know that there are many religion haters here at DU so you probably think that is a good idea :)Banning limits to amount of time you can work (and money you can earn), Forced medical treatments (failed euthanasia policies etc..) Diminished parental rights (home education is illegal)

Sure the services are great like education (oh wait take a test and if you fail you can't follow your dreams) Health care (get in line!!)

Its all free with socialism!!!!! wait where did all my money go??? oh yeah it all went to taxes..:(

I think the USA is in the hole with Bush and gang in charge but face it we do have liberty...for better or worse at least we have it.

[neweurope]

22. What the ....? Get a grip!

"Socialist EU nations"? Which?

"WE all know that communism has been proven a failure" - I don't

"hopefully we will all someday see socialist EU policy for what it is...out-of-control government control" - EU policy is VERY far from being socialist! And not nearly as "government controlled" as the US!

"take a look at some of the limits that are put on the lives of EU members: limited speech(no free speech), religious symbols in France (I know that there are many religion haters here at DU so you probably think that is a good idea :)Banning limits to amount of time you can work (and money you can earn), Forced medical treatments (failed euthanasia policies etc..) Diminished parental rights (home education is illegal)":

Whoever you are: Whatever you do: However you earn a living: Unless you are somebody who is already rich exploiting those whose fortune is worse than yours: In Europe your life would be better.

In Europe your children would get a better education. In Europe FBI wouldn't come for you if you had anti-Bush * pro-Kerry-signs on your frontyard - Nobody limits your speach in Europe unless you mean hate speech: I'm VERY leftish and I can say what I want to whomever I want and print it, too - "Banning limits to amount of time you can work (and money you can earn)" _ Such crap!!! It puts a limit on how much you can be exploited by any one company. If you want to work a second job nobody hinders you! -, Religious symbols being forbidden in public in France is a very good thing! Pray whereever you want but don't offend others! - Nobody EVER forces medical treatments on you: But we in Europe have affordable medical treatment thank God or whomever - in Europe half of bancrupcies aren't bcause of medival bills like the US - parents have all kinds of rights but people with a low IQ aren't allowed to have their children uneducated, also...

My goodness! I have to go to bed now. my wish before I fall asleep: That you inform yourself a littler better on things European. Europe is a beacon of freedom compared to the US right now!
------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to the Hague!

[Stockholm]

33. LOL enjoy your Patriot Act and your Free Speech Zones then n/t

[knight_of_the_star]

73. How about better standard of living

And democracies over there that actually work and aren't monkey-wrenched by the media? And just to let you know about how the education works in parts of Europe, like Germany, you take an aptitude-based test that determines if you are best fit for university or the equivalent of a trade school, and the state pays for it the whole way. Compared to what we have here with unmotivated students and people scraping by and living with debt to finish their education, that's a good deal.

[UncleSepp]

81. That has nothing to do with socialism

Socialism is economic. What you speak of is orthogonal to the socialist-capitalist economic axis, and has to do with the unrelated authoritarian-libertarian axis.

[rinsd]

15. Idiocy....sheer idiocy that was predictable....(nt)

[David__77]

19. This is outrageously insulting.

The communists played a crucial, pivotal role in liberating all of Europe from barbaric fascism, which in no way can be compared with human rights abuses in the eastern European "people's democracies"--or Soviet satellites. This contribution must be exalted, not denigrated.

[Mystified]

20. Well,

Tell that to the people who actually lived in those countries for 40 years. They may have a different perspective.

[Igel]

21. And had the fascist won we would be saying that they

liberated Eastern Europe from barbaric communism.

Hitler killed Jews and Roma, plus some socially undesirable groups (gays, probably others) and miscellaneous others.

Stalin--with Lenin certainly setting the path for him--tried to wipe out a class and the genes born by that class (that "class" is "everybody but proletariat"). But that didn't prevent him, leader of a "people's democracy" from making a treaty with Hitler to divvy up a "non-people's democracy" that had multiple parties and relatively free elections.

"People's democracies"? A label doesn't make it so.

Must stop rant now before it gets out of hand.

[rinsd]

25. Those "abusers" did so under the Hammer & Sickle..

Just like the Nazis took the swastika from the Hindus. Though I would argue the Hammer and Sickle never enjoyed a period as a gentile and admired symbol. Those carrying its flag even in the early days could give two shits about human rights, loyalty to the ideal was all that mattered.

"The communists played a crucial, pivotal role in liberating all of Europe from barbaric fascism, which in no way can be compared with human rights abuses in the eastern European "people's democracies"--or Soviet satellites"

How many did Stalin kill of his own people in the purges beofre the war? How many died in the forced relocations? Who originally made an allegiance with those barbaric fascists cutting up Poland until it was they who on the bad end? Who at the end of the war set up those satellite states?

Oh yeah that's right it was those heros of human rights marching under the hammer & sickle.

[makhno]

35. The hammer & sickle

Much of the progressive struggle that brought workers the rights they enjoy today - including the forty hour work week and women's rights - was done under the red banner and the hammer and sickle. To ignore - or worse yet, consciously distort - the history of Communist movements in Europe and their invaluable contribution to progressive struggle is intolerable.

That this new attack on the history, self-awareness and self-respect of the working class comes from the newly minted cohort of American stooges in the EU is not surprising. That so many on DU would defend this naked historical revisionism is, however.

[rinsd]

39. Naked histroical revisionism....

...is pretending getting a 40 hour work week balances out the deaths of MILLIONS in the name of a new way of organizing socially.

"Much of the progressive struggle that brought workers the rights they enjoy today - including the forty hour work week and women's rights - was done under the red banner and the hammer and sickle."

Amongst others, love how the communists are the only ones who are getting the credit but none of the blame.

"the history of Communist movements in Europe and their invaluable contribution to progressive struggle is intolerable"

No, intolreable is the constant skipping over atrocities to unhold a failed ideology.

[makhno]

72. Historical creationism

...is pretending getting a 40 hour work week balances out the deaths of MILLIONS in the name of a new way of organizing socially.

Pretending? Or is it that you don't have a union or a party to rely on so your employer doesn't fuck you at every turn? Are equal rights for women pretend as well? This is precisely the kind of revisionism I'm talking about - as if the rights we have today somehow magically appeared overnight, by some kind of creationist miracle, and not as a result of a long struggle led, like it or not, by communists and others on the murderous far left.

Amongst others, love how the communists are the only ones who are getting the credit but none of the blame.

What are you talking about? The movement's mistakes and theoretical shortcomings are well documented, widely accepted and acted upon. But let me not get in the way of this fantasy of yours.

No, intolreable is the constant skipping over atrocities to unhold a failed ideology.

Ah, the failed ideology canard! Do you even understand the difference between what the Soviet Union became under the stifling influence of its state-capitalist bureaucracy and the founding ideology?

[tx_dem41]

44. Your own revisionist history is quite stunning.

But then again, I guess like they say, "Mussolini did keep the trains running on time!"

[David__77]

71. The German-Soviet non-aggression treaty wasn't a mistake...

...it enabled the Soviets breathing space to develop their self-defense capabilities. The West wanted nothing more than for the Germans and Soviets to fight it out and then Britain could swoop in and establish hegemony. The Soviets were smart to redirect Germany's attention. Please remember that only ONE country turned back the Nazi horde--the Soviet Union. That is the record. France fell, as did every other country invaded by the Nazis. The Soviets knew that Germany wanted to take over their country and that is why they bided their time in order to prepare.

[TR Fan]

34. You simply don't know what you're talking about....

To say that:

"This contribution <"liberating Poland, Romania, etc.> must be exalted, not denigrated."

is to say that the thousands and thousands killed by Russian thugs, whose property was confiscated for the state, were delighted to live in the proletarian utopia created by the Soviets. Why don't you go to Bucharest, to Warsaw, to Budapest, and say that. However, I'd advise you to take a gun as well.

Additionally, why don't you go to Kiev and tell them what a favor Stalin did for them by reducing their population by about 8M, all in the name of communism?

[makhno]

36. That's right

Whoever asked those damn Soviets to break up the lovefest that was life in Poland or Hungary under German occupation. Go tell this shit to the families of death camp survivors liberated by the Red Army. I'd advise you to take a gun as well.

[TR Fan]

37. No one's comparing it with life under the Nazis.

Those damn Soviets, to use your phrase, inflicted a totalitarian government on countries that, prior to the Nazis, were striving toward some sort of "self determination," to use Wilson's favorite phrase. The Soviets blindly raped Eastern Europe for its resources (minerals in the Carpathians, for example), imposed to foreign-controlled government on them, and, in the case of Berlin, fenced them IN with a wall; all this, thanks to choices made at Yalta by a cripple and a traitor. Anyone who defends, much less praises, the Soviets in Eastern Europe will be treated with a very unhospitable welcome.

[makhno]

40. The original poster ...

... talked about the contribution an army marching under the hammer & sickle made to liberating Europe from the nazis. You then twisted the meaning of his words to fit your anti-communist agenda by describing (the very real) negative impact Soviet occupation had on Eastern Europe in the post-war period. It was dishonest.

[rinsd]

42. LOL!

Dishonest?

Like your hailing of the liberation of Poland(which had previously been invaded by the Soviets in fact diviied up with Nazi Germany) and Hungary which while spending sometime as a Soviet satellite was re-invaded in the 60's. Crap even the CPUSA was against that one.

[TR Fan]

46. Yes, against that one, but

the CPUSA was awfully supportive of Hitler when Stalin signed his non-agression pact.

[makhno]

47. So

So, you would've prefered the Germans occupied Poland until US forces could've gotten there in '46? Wow, staggering inhumanity.

Once again, the original discussion was about the liberation of Eastern Europe in '45, not the subsequent Soviet occupation and the events of '56, '68 et al.

[rinsd]

49. Preferred?

I would have prefered Hitler or Stalin never coming to power. But wishes and buts....

"Once again, the original discussion was about the liberation of Eastern Europe in '45, not the subsequent Soviet occupation and the events of '56, '68 et al."

Yes, let's focus only on the good things done under the hammer and sickle and forget about the litany of horrors. You keep repeating this mantra with little luck especially when it doesn't even make sense.

Reading is great, I bolded the part you keep skipping over. The conversation starter:

"The communists played a crucial, pivotal role in liberating all of Europe from barbaric fascism, which in no way can be compared with human rights abuses in the eastern European "people's democracies"--or Soviet satellites."

Now, what is this poster try9ing to say?

[makhno]

54. Are you're equating Nazi and Soviet rule?

Ok, let's look at that statement. Do you disagree with the opinion that human rights abuses in Soviet Union's East European satellites are not comparable in scale and horror to the Nazi occupation?

There's been a concerted effort to paint Communism - via its association with the Soviet Union, and particularly the Stalinist period - as somehow similar ideologically and in practice to fascism or Nazism, just as there's been an effort to minimize Soviet contributions to the victory over Germany in WWII. The knee-jerk anti-Communist and anti-Soviet reactions in this thread seem to indicate that this brand of historical revisionism is pretty effective.

[rinsd]

56. Well Mussolini's fascism and Franco's weren't as bad as Hitler...

...in terms of sheer death resulting from it. Granted that's like sayng the murderer and the rapist are better than the child moester but I digress.

"Do you disagree with the opinion that human rights abuses in Soviet Union's East European satellites are not comparable in scale and horror to the Nazi occupation?"

Why so segmented? Soviets abused their own people as well. And when you top the 10M killed mark, its tough to say well that one was obviously much worse

"There's been a concerted effort to paint Communism - via its association with the Soviet Union, and particularly the Stalinist period - as somehow similar ideologically and in practice to fascism or Nazism,"

When you kill millions of your own people you tend to get the Hitler comparison. And the Stalinist period was just as brutal a force of death and oppression as the Nazis.

"just as there's been an effort to minimize Soviet contributions to the victory over Germany in WWII"

Considering they helped kickoff the war by jointing invading Poland with the awful Nazis and also invaded Finland? Yeah, they get a bum rap. Them's the breaks when in the name of ideology you wholesale slaughter people.

There's a reason the US name brand ain't fairing to well either, you know.

[tx_dem41]

57. My "dictator" didn't kill as many as yours did! Is that your argument?

And I thought this was a liberal forum...sigh.

Oh, by the way...he did.

[makhno]

58. And because a dictator perverted the ideology ...

... you make it your duty to falsely paint the idea as somehow inherently leading to the crimes committed in its name? Just as you are prepared to erase from the historical record the contributions made by the Soviet Union in the struggle against Nazism in the name of exposing the horrors of Stalinism.

Like I said to your acolyte rinsd, there's an all too obvious tendency to dismiss the achievements of Communist movements along with, God forbid, those made under Soviet rule in order to promote a reactionary agenda that would dismantle all the social and economic gains made by the working class in the past century and a half. What's your agenda - a social democracy beholden to the interests of capital? Keep equating Communism with Stalinism and your kids will grow up thinking that the only political choice is between two candidates representing the interests of the bourgeoisie.

[tx_dem41]

61. You've twisted yourselves so many different ways on this thread...

I'll leave your display of moral relativism for others to judge.

As for my vote, I find it disgusting and against the principles of any liberal, progressive ideology.

[makhno]

66. What progressive ideology would that be?

Social democracy? FDR-style Keynesianism? Something else that leaves the fundamental inequality of the capitalist system undisturbed? My (admitted) moral relativism pales in comparison to the duplicity of some so-called liberals.

[tx_dem41]

75. Actually, I was talking about communism in this case.

You have no respect for Marx, if you put Stalin in any good light at all. Its a shame that people don't really read and study these days their histories, and thus develop solid ground for their beliefs and principles. Instead, they just listen to half-baked cliches, spout them out when they think its appropriate, but in the end, they spout nothing at all.

[makhno]

80. Where is this support for Stalin?

Acknowledging the contribution the Soviet Union made to the defeat of Nazism in WWII is by no means putting Stalin under any kind of good light. I'm not sure how you came to equate the two by reading my posts.

Sure, I could criticize Stalin's policies - beginning with the anti-Marxist idea of socialism in one country - on this thread, but what would be the point? Others are doing it with quite a healthy dose of vitriol. My role here is to set the historical record straight. And that means defending the truth against revisionists who would want to erase the critical Soviet contribution to allied victory in WWII from popular consciousness, leaving the Soviet Union - and, by association, Communism - as nothing but a collection of evil deeds perpetrated by Stalin and others.

[TR Fan]

59. Well, we could start another thread

and "associate" communism with Mao's "Great Leap Forward." Only about 100M dead there.

Or, how about a thread on the benefits of collective farming. We could start a Ukraine forum for that.

"...to paint Communism - via its association with the Soviet Union..."

It's funny, whenever one attacks communism, the answer is on the order of "Well, that's not really communism." I've got a good idea. Let's tell the millions who've died under this "imperfect" or "false" {or whatever adjective you'd like} communism, "Sorry, but we're still working on it. When we get it right, we'll let you know."

[makhno]

65. Mistakes are inevitable

Or do you suggest there exists a perfect ideology along with a step-by-step implementation laid out like an Ikea manual? Look at the millions dead under a variety of capitalist regimes - including our own democratic one - then come back and criticize the Chinese for mistakes made on the road to transforming their country into the most powerful state on Earth.

[tx_dem41]

77. "Mistakes are inevitable"

My goodness, your lack of principles in the pursuit of power (you really let it slip with the China reference) is truly stunning and disturbing.

I'm sure you hate Bush, but your writing belies thoughts far more hegemonic than liberals' wildest dreams about Bush's thoughts.

[tx_dem41]

45. I don't necessarily have a "anti-communist" viewpoint...

I definitely have an "anti-Stalinist" viewpoint, and your linkage of the two would seem to be quite insulting to the true founders of the ideology you purportedly exalt. Very confusing. Perhaps, some history written by "fellow travelers" who were in the Soviet Union in the 30s is in order for you.

[makhno]

48. Linkage?

Can you please point me to a single post of mine that defends Stalinism? I took offense at the degrading of Communist symbolism and the immediate linkage someone made between the hammer and sickle and the Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe in the post-war period.

[rinsd]

50. LOL...this keeps getting funnier

"I took offense at the degrading of Communist symbolism and the immediate linkage someone made between the hammer and sickle and the Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe in the post-war period."

Hey I didn't start at the post occupation. I started at the beggining. You know that part before the glorious libveration of Nazi occupied territories where Stalin purged(murdered, imprisoned) 1/3 of the army for disloyalty, forced migrations, gulags etc etc. All this happened prior to Uncle Joe's redemption for putting boot to Adolph's ass. And sorry if your exalted symbol is a little tarnished. That is not my fault but that of the standard bearers.

You'll laugh at this too. I don't want said symbols banned. I think to do so is a bunch of thought control BS and likely counter productive in the end.

[tx_dem41]

51. Oh, Rinsd...

you silly fascist dupe, you! ;-)

[rinsd]

86. I've been making defeatist statements....

....that betray my loss of faith in the Communist Ideal.

Off to the gulags, I guess.

[rinsd]

41. "Soviets to break up the lovefest that was life in Poland or Hungary"

Gee would that be in 1941 when those damn Soviets split Poland between themselves and the Nazis...you know when Stalin signed a non-aggression treaty?

Or would that be in the 60's when those damn Soviet troops invaded Hungary because they were getting too uppity?

This either the most ignorant post I've seen here or quite a creative attempt at a left wing charicature.

[TR Fan]

60. While, at the same time,

the Germans took Transylvania and gave it to the Hungarians and the Russians took Bessarabia and half of Moldova. I'm sure the wonderful communists were merely dismembering Romania out of concerns for the population there.

[Charon]

78. Invasions

I believe the Soviets invaded Hungary in 1956 and Czeckoslovakia (sic)in the mid 60s.

[rinsd]

84. Yes, you are correct. I sometimes get those dates mixed up (nt)

[David__77]

70. There are many communists in eastern Europe.

I don't see them getting assaulted for voicing their views, except for by Nazis and fascists. Any attempt to equate Stalin to Hitler, or the Soviet Union to barbaric Nazi Germany, is simply insulting to those groups who were targeted for annihilation by the fascists.

Many died at the hands of the Soviet state--including, especially, Nazis, racists, anti-Semites organizing pogroms, fifth columnists who collaborated with the Nazi occupation and so forth. Their "killing" helped liberate Europe. That is my point. I'm not upholding the political practices of Joseph Stalin. But I am defending the historical legacy of the Soviet fight against fascism--for that reason alone, the red banner has a place of honor in the hearts of millions--this cannot be denied.

[TR Fan]

79. 8M Ukrainians died

in Stalin's attempt to collective farming and this was well before WWII. You're right, attempts to equate Hitler and Stalin only serve to make Hitler look good.

[David__77]

82. "Make Hitler look good?"

Seriously, you think "Hitler looks good" in comparison? When the Soviets entered Poland in the east, and Germany from the west, which side did the Jews flee to? Of course, it was to the Soviet Union. The fascists and Pilsudski-types fled into Hitler's embrace.

"8,000,000?" Even radical anti-communist US sources say perhaps 2,000,000 died from a FAMINE, which is very different from the German genocide policy. However, even this figure is likely greatly bloated. The Hearst press, for instance, is known to have doctored photos of famine "victims," in one case even using a photo from the early 20s as a being a famine victim. In any case, things weren't as bad as during the first world war, hoisted on the country by an evil tsardom.

Clearly, we do not agree on what are the basic facts.

[TR Fan]

83. No Stalin Complicity? 2 Million?

Some results of the Harvard University Ukrainian Research Institute's Symposium on the Great Famine:

<snip>
Session one of the symposium "The 1932-33 Famine in Ukraine: Its Specificities, Its Context" focused on the discussion of two papers: Terry Martin's entitled "The Great Famine in Ukraine and the Nationalities Question", and Andrea Graziosi's "The Great Famine of 1932-33: Consequences and Implications". Martin spoke of new documents from the personal archives of Stalin, Molotov and Kaganovich that revealed their direct complicity in the Ukrainian Famine. Stalin connected the stubborn resistance of Ukrainian peasants to his collectivization policies with his longstanding dislike of Ukrainians and fears of Ukrainian nationalism. He also suspected the Ukrainian Communist leadership of disloyalty towards Moscow and of harboring nationalist sympathies. Stalin's grain requisition policies initially targeting peasants as a class eventually acquired a clear ethnic, anti-Ukrainian, bias and came to target Ukrainians as an ethnic group hostile towards Stalin's goals.
<snip>

http://www.huri.harvard.edu/news6.html

2 Million? Not according to most non-apolgist sources:

7-10 Million
http://www.infoukes.com/history/famine/
6-7 Million
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/archives/ukra.html

7 Million
http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/Genocide/Ukraine_famine.htm

7-10 Million
http://www.freeserbia.net/Articles/2003/Death.html

7-10 Million
http://ucca.org/uccanews/story/1129010925.shtml

5 Million
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/RM3.S.FACE.OF.FAM.HTM

6-7 Million
http://www.gendercide.org/case_stalin.html

Yes, we do disagree on basic "facts" and that was what started this discussion. I've lived in Eastern Europe and my spouse is Eastern European. Her attitudes regarding the Soviets and the wonderful benefits of communism are representative of most people I've met there. The Soviets are rightly viewed as foreign occupiers who stole 45 years of her country's development, in the process ruining the land, destroying once beautiful cities with their Gulag architecture, stealing their not insignificant natural reasources, imposing their gutteral Slavic language upon the population, killing their leaders and businessmen and replacing them with stooges, and, most of all, taking away their basic right to govern themselves as they wish. Believe me, in Eastern Europe, the only good Soviet Communist is a dead one.

Sorry, I don't get my facts from the WWP, CPUSA, or ANSWER.

[makhno]

38. Well said

This is an attempt to rewrite history and to suppress the pivotal role the Communist movement played in winning fundamental rights for the European worker. Disgusting but very predictable in the current environment.

[rinsd]

43. Yes and the swatiska for years was a symbol of good luck for Hindus

"This is an attempt to rewrite history and to suppress the pivotal role the Communist movement played in winning fundamental rights for the European worker. Disgusting but very predictable in the current environment."

The rewriting of history is by those pretending the hammer and sickle was by and large a symbol for good when in fact it was the banner of murder and genocide. But hey we got a 40 hour work week! who cares about the MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS that were killed, starved and brutally oppressed.

[makhno]

55. That's true

Why show any respect to the Communist workers who died defending the rights we still largely enjoy today? Let's just harp on about how evil the Soviet Union was and pretend that its brand of state-capitalism was what Communism is all about.

Pathetic.

[rinsd]

85. Pathetic?

Would that be when you've finally backed away from defending the Soviet Union(to say nothing of China) and resorted to the tried and true "that wasn't real communism"?

We're talking about communism as practiced and forwarded under the banner of the hammer and sickle. Geez I knew Communists liked to cherry pick history to fill in their visions of "inevitablity" but this is getting ridiculous.

"Why show any respect to the Communist workers who died defending the rights we still largely enjoy today"

I would be glad too as long as you stop pretending that they were th only ones doing so.

If you want to talk about the merits of Marxsim as a social organization or as theory, we can do so as well.

[solinvictus]

63. Liberation....

which involved sending countless millions to Siberian gulags. According to Solzhenitsyn, your odds of surviving Auschwitz were much better than inside the Soviet gulag. If you accept Hitler's numbers as between 6-10 million, he was a choir boy compared to "Uncle Joe", who killed two to three times as many Soviet nationals before the war.

[David__77]

69. Solzhenitsyn, being an anti-Semite and fascist...

...I would expect him to say such things. Seeing as he is still spewing fascist garbage, apparently the "gulag" system wasn't too hard on him, was it?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

24. What about all the LEGAL, ESTABLISHED Communist parties in Western Europe?

Do they want them outlawed??? Like in the Latin American banana republics of the 60's and 70's? Is THAT what they're aspiring to?

They're on crack.

[rinsd]

26. Well, its not the party they're outlawing but the symbol...

...which I don't agree with either because I think things like that are BS.

[American Tragedy]

27. Let's just ban EVERYTHING that might offend someone

or has some historical connotations. Pretending like ideological conflict doesn't exist is certainly easier than actually addressing the issues directly in public debate, and we can all feel suitably proud of our political correctness.

[rinsd]

52. Here, here (nt)

[abandon_ship]

53. what'll the drummer for autograph play...ohh cymbals..nevermind

[Sivafae]

64. If I remember correctly

When the Communists took over in China, everyone had to destroy any and all objects that were "symbols of imperialism."
Burning your history is dumb, and it doesn't work.
Why not try to educate instead. After all history is written by the winners...

[Heyo]

67. It's certainly understandable...

... considering the suffering that communism has wrought in those countries in particular.

Banning symbols though? A gray area.

As far as I am concerned, it isn't illegal to be a jackass.

However I am not one to talk, because I hever lived under communist rule.

Heyo

[jman0]

74. thank god for the Communists

They won WWII. Who do you think captured Berlin?
They also liberated Auschwitz.

[d_b]

76. They need to ban those symbols..

..and then they need to order some freedom fries.

[Jack_DeLeon]

87. Well if you are going to ban swastikas...

its only fair to apply this ban to the hammer and sickle.

Both regiemes were equally horrible.

That being said I prefer freedom of speech, and dont think anything should be banned. Ever.